Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Codaption]

Nair has a lingering hitbox that could easily snatch the ledge grab from somebody.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Aerial DownB possibly.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Hey guys,

I've recently been messing around with this: http://imgur.com/vnngeTx (sorry for the poor quality). Has it been known that you can wavebounce while on the ground? Does anyone find this useful?

You can also pivot neutral b, and do one in the same direction instantly (avoiding the skid animation). I believe these have less end lag then our normal running and pivot grabs. Are these more viable grabs while running?

 

[Regralht]

Yeah it's been known https://vine.co/v/OHVH1vxPAv5
I use it every now and then. It's good as a rare mix up when your opponent thinks that they can hit you before you start your approach attack.

Yeah Egg Lay on the ground generally seems better than grab (it's more flexible), unless the opponent is at really low % (You're better off going for a string off of a throw, compared to reacting to what they do when immediately breaking out of Egg Lay. They both basically put the opponent in the same spot, and have the same damage potential, but a throw is safer for Yoshi).

 

[theBonzz]

Why do I not see any Yoshi's doing grab pummel-release jab upsmash? I've gotten multiple kills with it.

 

[Slurzen]

Thread Title: what characters do yoshi have trouble facing the most?

i've been training with yoshi for quite some time, and i want to know the pros and cons for other opponents. a good question and answer would help. thanks!

 

[Delta-cod]

Thread Title: what characters do yoshi have trouble facing the most?

i've been training with yoshi for quite some time, and i want to know the pros and cons for other opponents. a good question and answer would help. thanks!

Merged with the Question and Answer thread.

To answer, I'd tell you that in general, characters that are very fast give Yoshi the most trouble. Yoshi's frame data is kind of poor, because he has a lot of end lag on his more useful moves. So when a character can rush him down and stay in his face safely, Yoshi really suffers.

So characters like Sheik, Fox, Mii Brawler, Falcon (kind of), Diddy (maybe?), Sonic (maybe?).

 

[Slurzen]

Merged with the Question and Answer thread.

To answer, I'd tell you that in general, characters that are very fast give Yoshi the most trouble. Yoshi's frame data is kind of poor, because he has a lot of end lag on his more useful moves. So when a character can rush him down and stay in his face safely, Yoshi really suffers.

So characters like Sheik, Fox, Mii Brawler, Falcon (kind of), Diddy (maybe?), Sonic (maybe?).

thanks for the tip!

 

[Micaelis]

I looked around briefly but couldn't find a guide that really talks about the inputs necessary to do specific trajectories with Egg Toss.

I see a lot of Yoshi's do an extremely angled down Egg Toss when in the air. They typically use it as a method to approach, following behind the egg and abusing their opponent's need to shield to get in.

Can anyone help explain at least this version of the Egg Toss? I can do it relatively but I find it very difficult so I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something about either the basics of Egg Toss mechanics and/or this particular angle in general.

Thanks in advance and sorry if someone has asked this before or there was a thread I couldn't find. I'm a PR member from Georgia who mains Yoshi and Rosaluma just for the record.

 

[Dpete]

Hi Yoshi mains!

I've been looking for a secondary for my ROB and found I really enjoy Yoshi. That said, I have trouble landing KOs outside of hard reads and punishes. I've read some of the guides and threads around, but I've seen very little info about killing with U-air. Specifically, I'm interested in comboing U-tilt and F-air stage spikes into U-air at kill percents. I've done some work in training and the combo counter seems to think these work at varying percents, but I'm sure DI will complicate my finds.

 

[ReturningFall]

Hi Yoshi mains!

I've been looking for a secondary for my ROB and found I really enjoy Yoshi. That said, I have trouble landing KOs outside of hard reads and punishes. I've read some of the guides and threads around, but I've seen very little info about killing with U-air. Specifically, I'm interested in comboing U-tilt and F-air stage spikes into U-air at kill percents. I've done some work in training and the combo counter seems to think these work at varying percents, but I'm sure DI will complicate my finds.

If you figure it out, please share. We could use some guys to hit the lab and work out when we can actually perform our followups.

The Fair->Uair kill follow up is kinda sensitive. A lot of time you can air dodge through it. Which I love doing to kill really scrubby Yoshis. That said, I've been hit by it enough to know it can be a combo--or atleast a 3-frame trap. If you care to hit the lab and work out who it work on against different characters, it would be very appreciated

In my limited experience, Utilt->UAir isn't really an effective kill setup. It works well at very low percent for damage but isn't terribly useful for killing. But if you've found it works in training...please share.

You pretty much hit our kill options as it is. The only other typical fill follow ups are jab->DownB and jab->Usmash. But the effectiveness of those are being questioned too.

We're not Sheik. We don't get lots of followups and usually need to get a read or bait a mistake for the kill.

 

[Delta-cod]

I looked around briefly but couldn't find a guide that really talks about the inputs necessary to do specific trajectories with Egg Toss.

I see a lot of Yoshi's do an extremely angled down Egg Toss when in the air. They typically use it as a method to approach, following behind the egg and abusing their opponent's need to shield to get in.

Can anyone help explain at least this version of the Egg Toss? I can do it relatively but I find it very difficult so I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something about either the basics of Egg Toss mechanics and/or this particular angle in general.

Thanks in advance and sorry if someone has asked this before or there was a thread I couldn't find. I'm a PR member from Georgia who mains Yoshi and Rosaluma just for the record.

The Egg's arc is a function of two variables: Power and Angle.

Power is adjusted based on how long you hold the Special button (B, usually) for. The longer you hold down the button after initiating the Egg Toss, the further you'll throw the egg.

Angle is adjusted based on how you hold the control stick after initiating the Egg Toss. There are a lot of different angles possible, most acquired by holding the stick in some direction between straight forward (which throws the egg as far forward as possible), and straight backward (which throws the egg vertically).

The egg has a limited amount of time it can be around before it explodes on its own, without hitting anything. Most of the time you'll either hit a floor/shield/platform/person before this happens. If you were to throw it as hard as possible straight up, it would explode somewhere near the highest point of its travel path, in the air. If you use this same angle, but with the minimal amount of Power, you'll end up lobbing the egg barely above Yoshi's head, and then it'll fall through him and hit the ground, where it explodes.

The toss you're looking for is basically an extension of this. In the air, if you throw an egg with a small amount of Power, it'll drop towards the stage. Since the stage isn't immediately below your feet anymore, the egg actually has time to plummet towards the stage, below where Yoshi is. This is what's allowing Yoshi to throw an egg from the air, have it drop down onto the opponent, and having Yoshi follow it up. The Angle is more forward, and the Power is minimal (usually the special button is just tapped).

TL;DR - To throw eggs in this manner you want to jump, just tap B, and hold forward (or at whatever Angle you need).

 

[Micaelis]

TL;DR - To throw eggs in this manner you want to jump, just tap B, and hold forward (or at whatever Angle you need).

Hey, thanks a bunch Delta. I've never played Yoshi before Sm4sh so I actually didn't know that the power was based off how long the B button was HELD. I thought it was how hard I held the Control Stick. Funny thing was it was working out for me but probably only because I was accidentally holding the B button longer whenever I held the Control Stick longer.

Thank you again for the mini-tutorial as it really helped clear things up for me and will most definitely help me a lot. And thank you for being an active and useful Yoshi main unlike myself people like you are who make Character boards worthwhile and a real resource.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Holding B based on egg throw has been like that since Smash 64.
I have quite literally played yoshi so long that I subconciously hold up b when playing the (very) little characters I enjoy using.

I SD so much as greninja cause I'm holding UpB cause accidental use of side-b when trying to angle his hydro pump in an awkward way.

 

[Macedonian]

Hey yoshi boards, last night I played about 30 games vs a yoshi and was only able to get away with two wins.

I saw the vs mario matchup has yet to be discussed here but was hoping I cod still get some input.
And just some of my initial issus with the MU, I can't combo yoshi out of downthrow at all so I just downthrow upB to get the guranteed percent. Also my first insinct was to be shield focused as soon as yoshi is in the air but I was never able to punish his ariel approaches. Should I be going for somthing other then shielding his airials mostly? Of course there is Mario's amazing upsmash, but with how crazy fast yoshi is in the air I was having so much trouble getting it to land.

 

[Doublenickels]

Hi everyone! I'm having a little trouble with the Marth matchup. I manage the FG/newbie type Marths extremely well, but I recently ran across a Marth in bracket that destroyed me. I typically finish much higher than him in singles and handle it well in doubles, but this was the first time we matched up in singles.

I found that his sword made it damn near impossible to b-reverse egg lay, or really to get in at all, seeing as we have no disjoints. Is there something I can do? Or should I just work on my ROB game to handle this matchup? Wario doesn't seem to handle him well either.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The marth MU is actually kinda difficult for us. Mostly cause we can't really double jump through a lot of his **** and dancing blade is obnoxiously good if we ever get hit by it.
He still has decent range on his moves, so not too surprised a losing MU from brawl to smash 4 barely changed. Smash 4/Rage mechanics just helps him net kills almost as early as lucario and with edgeguarding gone Yoshi can't get any cheese gimps off him like we could in brawl (albeit it barely happened)

Raptor thinks it's like 65:35 (lol maybe no that bad) and I recall shaya months back saying yoshi was one of the few high tiers marth could handle. I'd at best say maybe 55:45 marfa favor if we ever did discussion and I had to give a ratio.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Hey yoshi boards, last night I played about 30 games vs a yoshi and was only able to get away with two wins.

I saw the vs mario matchup has yet to be discussed here but was hoping I cod still get some input.
And just some of my initial issus with the MU, I can't combo yoshi out of downthrow at all so I just downthrow upB to get the guranteed percent. Also my first insinct was to be shield focused as soon as yoshi is in the air but I was never able to punish his ariel approaches. Should I be going for somthing other then shielding his airials mostly? Of course there is Mario's amazing upsmash, but with how crazy fast yoshi is in the air I was having so much trouble getting it to land.

This matchup can be a bit tough for mario due to yoshi's combo breaking nair. I believe after a dthrow you should be able to get at least one utilt out of it, and after that, you can shield the oncoming nair or reset yourself back to neutral.

Fireballs and cape are you friends. Fireball can be used reliably to approach from the ground and in the air for mario. Cape is great to reflect eggs and you also are able to cape yoshis recovery as an edgeguard.

From the air, yoshi's aerials aren't particularly safe on shield so for the most part you can shield grab to punish. It takes patience and focus so as to not get flustered while playing against yoshi. Mario's usmash is also a great tool to swat any unsafe approaches or landings.

Why is Yoshi so cheap?

lolgif

What in your mind makes Yoshi so cheap? So far what you've posted tells us that you are a player who is quick to complain without any evidence.

 

[Delta-cod]

I think the Marth MU should be played as grounded as possible, and that we just need to try to get Marth to commit to something and then we have to punish him. He's lost some of his better spacing options (Fair), so we can afford to play more footsies. The loss of Fair also makes it easier for us to punish him for committing in neutral.

I'd say it's about even, comes down to who can successfully bait the other in neutral.

 

[Macedonian]

@ GSM_Dren what you stated were the toughts going through my head when i was fighting the yoshi, shield his aerials and challenge with Usmash sometimes, however i just ran into major problems whenever i tried to punish a blocked aerial because he would just space backwards after hitting my shield and i then i would eat a jab/tilt whenever trying to grab him.

also trying to fireball would result in me eatingan egg almost every time because he would shoot an egg over the fireball and punish me

 

[Dulop]

Today Zero talked about a japanese player named 'Yoshidora'.. does anyone know where I can find videos from him playing?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Shi-gaming channel, there's not many and Yoshidora is online only. So look for any Yoshi head and Jigglypuff in the thumbnail cause the jiggly means it's online.

 

[Gombi]

Hi yoshi mains. I started to mess with yoshi these last day i and like him pretty much. I am trying to choose a main between pikachu, yoshi and wario. Pikachu is quite a strong character and fun to play but i have to admit i am quite the lazy player and the quick attack maching get me tired sometimes xD. Wario is a well round and strong character too but missing some combo and more of a gimmick character and i love learning combo. So yoshi seems a good in between those 2.

I was wondering what are is strenght and weakness ? Does he have some really bad MU ? How does not having such a great grab game affect him ? And how do you approach when in neutral ? (kind of having hard time to approach safely compared to pikachu and wario)

Thanks a lot for the answer and your time

 

[Lukingordex]

Yeah it's been known https://vine.co/v/OHVH1vxPAv5
I use it every now and then. It's good as a rare mix up when your opponent thinks that they can hit you before you start your approach attack.

I've never seen this before, how do I do it?

 

[0Brax0]

Today Zero talked about a japanese player named 'Yoshidora'.. does anyone know where I can find videos from him playing?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ヨシドラ

if you click that link it will lead you to a whole list of yoshidora video's. The trick with his name, is that since he's in Japan most of the videos are titled in Japanese and thus, you have you search for his name with the Japanese characters.

Also on a personal note, I've been going on anthers ladder more and more this summer and have been asking around what I need to improve on. The general consensus from the people I've talked has been that I lack a decent approach game as well as the fact that my neutral game is poor. If anyone could shed some light on this topic, or link me a decent place for answers, I'd greatly appreciate it. While I have been able to find a few guides or replies among these post's and on this topic, I can't seem to put the words that have been said into practice and the video's I've been watching like yoshidora for example, only go so far. So if you think you could shed some light on this further, I would really appreciate it!

TLDR: Need help with how to handle the neutral game, and the approach with Yoshi.

 

[Regralht]

I've never seen this before, how do I do it?

There's two ways.

The first method, is to basically do the same input that you'd normally do for a wavebounce (lets say you're running to the right, tap the control stick to the left, reset the stick to neutral and hit special, and then hit tap the stick to the right. This all has to be done very quickly). The problem with this method, is that it's quite difficult.

The second method is to use the C-stick. Set your C-stick to attack, and a shoulder button or Z to special (you don't have to do that, but it certainly makes it easier lol). If you're dashing to the right, hold the control stick to the right the entire time, and tap the C-stick to the left, while at the same time hitting special.

 

[Lukingordex]

There's two ways.

The first method, is to basically do the same input that you'd normally do for a wavebounce (lets say you're running to the right, tap the control stick to the left, reset the stick to neutral and hit special, and then hit tap the stick to the right. This all has to be done very quickly). The problem with this method, is that it's quite difficult.

The second method is to use the C-stick. Set your C-stick to attack, and a shoulder button or Z to special (you don't have to do that, but it certainly makes it easier lol). If you're dashing to the right, hold the control stick to the right the entire time, and tap the C-stick to the left, while at the same time hitting special.

Not having a Wii U to test things properly hurts me

 

[Dpete]

TLDR: Need help with how to handle the neutral game, and the approach with Yoshi.

I've been on a Short-Hop Air Dodge (SHAD) kick lately. Specifically, SHAD -> Nair or SHAD -> Neutral B for mixups are strong approach options. Also, it is a nice defensive option against rushdown in neutral.

 

[Delta-cod]

Also on a personal note, I've been going on anthers ladder more and more this summer and have been asking around what I need to improve on. The general consensus from the people I've talked has been that I lack a decent approach game as well as the fact that my neutral game is poor. If anyone could shed some light on this topic, or link me a decent place for answers, I'd greatly appreciate it. While I have been able to find a few guides or replies among these post's and on this topic, I can't seem to put the words that have been said into practice and the video's I've been watching like yoshidora for example, only go so far. So if you think you could shed some light on this further, I would really appreciate it!

TLDR: Need help with how to handle the neutral game, and the approach with Yoshi.

I wrote something a while back that might help, but looking at what you've said, I think it might be a bit too general to really answer your questions. If you want to give it a read, you can find it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/colors-of-yoshi-metagame-discussion-and-tips.395715/#post-19002763

The TL;DR of that post is that against good characters, the way Yoshi handles the neutral game is highly dependent on who you're playing against, both playstyle-wise and character-wise.

In general you'll want to be approaching with mixups (SHAD > Nair/Egglay/Other, or Dash > Usmash/Grab, etc), or trying to bait something with your movement and then punish. Hard reads are also possible (say the opponent is Diddy/Sheik and they're walling you with SH Fairs, you could try a run in Usmash).

I highly value patience in Yoshi's neutral game, so I take things slow and lean more towards the bait/hard read side of the neutral game.

 

[Codaption]

Hi yoshi mains. I started to mess with yoshi these last day i and like him pretty much. I am trying to choose a main between pikachu, yoshi and wario. Pikachu is quite a strong character and fun to play but i have to admit i am quite the lazy player and the quick attack maching get me tired sometimes xD. Wario is a well round and strong character too but missing some combo and more of a gimmick character and i love learning combo. So yoshi seems a good in between those 2.

I was wondering what are is strenght and weakness ? Does he have some really bad MU ? How does not having such a great grab game affect him ? And how do you approach when in neutral ? (kind of having hard time to approach safely compared to pikachu and wario)

Thanks a lot for the answer and your time

As far as I know, Yoshi does not have any matchups that are particularly poor. However, his poor grab game actually hinders him a lot more than any hard counter, as it severely limits his interactions with shields. He doesn't really have a reliable option when an opponent starts using theirs, and his slow shield grab means that he can't really deal with shield pressure all that well.

As far as playing in the neutral goes, I'd check out Delta-Cod's writeup on Yoshi's neutral options and strategy. For now, I'd get to know your eggs and SH AD Nair.

 

[Gombi]

In general you'll want to be approaching with mixups (SHAD > Nair/Egglay/Other, or Dash > Usmash/Grab, etc), or trying to bait something with your movement and then punish. Hard reads are also possible (say the opponent is Diddy/Sheik and they're walling you with SH Fairs, you could try a run in Usmash)..

what is the purpose of doing a air dodge betwen SH and nair/egg etc ??

I would basically like to know what to do in neutral and for approach too i have some hard time finding how to do it properly with yoshi

As far as I know, Yoshi does not have any matchups that are particularly poor. However, his poor grab game actually hinders him a lot more than any hard counter, as it severely limits his interactions with shields. He doesn't really have a reliable option when an opponent starts using theirs, and his slow shield grab means that he can't really deal with shield pressure all that well.

As far as playing in the neutral goes, I'd check out Delta-Cod's writeup on Yoshi's neutral options and strategy. For now, I'd get to know your eggs and SH AD Nair.

thanks so basically because of the start up time even using throw to gain stage control is not a great option ... that suck

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's because you need to weave around your opponents and bait them into using a move so we can punish during the duration of their move (if they threw out a long one/smash)
B reverse/wavebounce or shorthop airdodge into wutever that isn't too laggy to catch them off guard.

The Airdodge basically keeps you safe from any move the opponent might toss out trying to swat you away as if you're gonna be empty hopping towards em. Yoshi Ness and a few others have this nice benefit of being able to do this nice gimmick so people need to abuse it as much as they can.

 

[Delta-cod]

what is the purpose of doing a air dodge betwen SH and nair/egg etc ??

I would basically like to know what to do in neutral and for approach too i have some hard time finding how to do it properly with yoshi

Basically what Slush said. Functionally it's the same as just Short Hopping at people, but it has the added benefit of making you invincible while doing so. Since we can act before landing, we're not even restricted to just landing afterwards. You could do something like SHAD > DJ Nair to really minimize your chances of being punished.

 

[Lukingordex]

So is the Marth MU really bad for us?

I have never played this MU before so I have no idea how it goes, but knowing this makes me sad.

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't see why it would be. If anything I'd imagine it to be better for us than it has been in the past, since he can't wall Fair anymore and we have a real shield.

Regardless, Marth still has nice range and stuff, and neither character dominates neutral, so I'd put it evenish off of some scratch theorycrafting.

 

[Doublenickels]

So is the Marth MU really bad for us?

I have never played this MU before so I have no idea how it goes, but knowing this makes me sad.

I probably just suck, or maybe I need to tone down the aggression in this MU, but that MU is one I struggle with a lot, because Marth can stuff a lot of our approaches with his sword. I guess just using eggs even more than usual is key here, but idk, I struggle with it, it's probably me and not the MU itself.

 

[Codaption]

I personally have issues dealing with Marth no matter what character I use. Shield Breaker defies my natural instinct to shield, and Dancing blades/Counters somehow stop me in my tracks constantly.

 

[Doublenickels]

I personally have issues dealing with Marth no matter what character I use. Shield Breaker defies my natural instinct to shield, and Dancing blades/Counters somehow stop me in my tracks constantly.

Just my two cents, if you're looking for a secondary to cover the Marth matchup, I've found that zoners like ROB and pure rush downs like CF make it easier for me in that matchup, since I really can't handle a good Marth with Yoshi, and Wario is even worse in that MU.

 

[0Brax0]

I wrote something a while back that might help, but looking at what you've said, I think it might be a bit too general to really answer your questions. If you want to give it a read, you can find it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/colors-of-yoshi-metagame-discussion-and-tips.395715/#post-19002763

The TL;DR of that post is that against good characters, the way Yoshi handles the neutral game is highly dependent on who you're playing against, both playstyle-wise and character-wise.

In general you'll want to be approaching with mixups (SHAD > Nair/Egglay/Other, or Dash > Usmash/Grab, etc), or trying to bait something with your movement and then punish. Hard reads are also possible (say the opponent is Diddy/Sheik and they're walling you with SH Fairs, you could try a run in Usmash).

I highly value patience in Yoshi's neutral game, so I take things slow and lean more towards the bait/hard read side of the neutral game.

Just wanted to say thanks for this info. I remember reading this a while back, but now I'll definitely try and put this more into practice. Also wanted to thanks to Dpete for his feedback as well. With this info hopefully after practicing it a bit more and putting it into competitive play, I'll have a stronger neutral game and a bit more ground control.

 

[JBones]

Any tips for going up against a fast character like Falcon? I have a lot of trouble with him, and it feels like I'm just gonna get grabbed no matter what I do.