Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Baron Omega]

ok no worries

 

[Artmastercorey]

Hello Yoshi players, I was wondering, why is yoshi not considered S tier class? He seems more of a threat than shiek in my opinion. He has speedy attacks, no lag, great reach, super armor, and alot of power in his attacks. He is the number one character in the game I think that is difficult to beat. Especially over shiek. But I may be missing something, even diddy doesnt seem as terrifying as facing yoshi.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi does not have the speed in the neutral game, the guaranteed kill setups, and the Out of Shield options necessary to be S tier.

He has nothing fast enough to reliably use in Neutral. This means he's generally forced to try to get in or counter his opponent's approaches. These generally boil down to INCREDIBLY stacked guessing games against Yoshi.

Yoshi can't confirm kills easily. This is truly detrimental in this game because rage exists. If we can't kill, our damage is actually helping you kill us faster.

He has bad OoS options. This means we can't really deal with pressure well. This is DEVASTATING against someone like Sheik.

Basically, all these three flaws, while not crippling on their own, come together to be bad enough that Yoshi isn't amazing. He's acceptable, but not amazing.

 

[FryingPan]

My question is, how can i use Yoshi's grab effectively? Against the fastest characters like falcon, sheik, and pikachu, i find that all my opponent has to do is be very patient + abuse shield. This is because i never really grab against those characters, knowing that the incredible lag of Yoshi's grab will get me punished if missed due to their speed. So shielding and simply punishing any of my options becomes very effective for them. I know that this is probably the nature of Yoshi's matchup against faster characters, but is there anything i could do to at least somewhat remedy this? Maybe use more egg lays? Maybe pick BF against them to capitalize on the strong aerials? I really dont know.

This question can apply to using his grab against any character really, but specifically against fast/punish heavy characters.

Any insight on this?

 

[DragN]

I feel that if Yoshi had SOME kind of followup after a grab or the grab itself not take 65 million years to initiate,(Why does he need to reel his head back!?) he'd be much better off.(Okay, maybe not THAT much better, but it'd be a significant alleviation of one of Yoshi's biggest flaws) At least give him that.

Let me try to explain: Why not lessen the endlag and knockback on our up and down throws so we can ACTUALLY USE OUR POWERFUL AERIALS to followup! (Also is there any reason why our standing grab is SHORTER than Egg Lay!?)

Almost every character in this game has either:

A powerful kill throw * Numerous Back Throws*,

Throws that have enough knockback scaling to kill at 130%+ *ala Greninja's, Marth's, Ike's up throws*

Or at the very least one throw that can create a window for combos. *Various Down Throws*


What does Yoshi get? The same, terrible grab he's always had and he doesn't have grab range to compensate for the overall lagginess imo (seriously i swear Link, Tink and Zamus' grabs have less lag than Yoshi's} To add even more fuel to this fire, we don't have our Brawl pivot grab anymore! (The endlag on it makes it almost unusable.)

Finally, we can't even shieldgrab powerful, laggy moves because Yoshi slides too far for his grab to reach! His grab game is just so GLARINGLY LACKING.......okay...I'm done ranting now...

 

[Codaption]

Most characters got buffed throws to compensate for the removal of chain grabs, whereas our pivot grab was straight-up cut down. At the very least, remove some of the endlag from our grabs so that they don't screw us over on whiff.

 

[Aki]

Hey, Yoshi is my secondary and I have a question about something that has gotten me killed multiple times.
How do I reliably snap to the ledge? When I airjump, he won't grab it and when I use Eggs he has to finish the throwing animation before he grabs the ledge, which means there is plenty of time to get spiked or simply kicked away.
Do I always have to recover high with Yoshi?
I hope this question wasn't answered before, I didn't find it if it was.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Yoshi doesn't auto sweetspot. You can grab the ledge when you're traveling downwards in either double jump, Egg Throw, Yoshi Bomb, or just falling. You have to manually aim to reach the ledge without poking above it, recover high or drop down from above with down B.

 

[Aki]

You have to manually aim to reach the ledge without poking above it

That was my question, how do I do that? Do I have to Egg Toss in such a way that I will always end up slightly below and let the magnetic ledges do their work?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Yeah. Double Jump can work too.

 

[Codaption]

I personally try to use eggs before my jump if I can help it. It helps to cover my return a bit better and saves my jump if they get a hit on me.

 

[Aki]

That's pretty annoying then. Guess I'll have to learn to deal with it.

 

[iLLEST]

What up Yoshi mains.. Could I please get a list of top 5 AT's to master? I will eventually finish looking through all the back pages and threads. lol

 

[Delta-cod]

Basic movement is always the best to master. As for Yoshi:

B-reverse/Wavebounce/Turn-around B
Egg Toss Slide
OoS options (Usmash, Nair, etc).
Sliding Dash (There's a recent thread on it here).
Uh...Perfect Pivot?

None of this stuff is particularly Yoshi specific. I don't think Yoshi has much unique tech in this game.

 

[Codaption]

Speaking of stuff to learn, I'd like to know more about the timing of oos options. I know you jump and immediately press whatever button you were going to use, but I can't figure out the exact sequence down.

 

[Delta-cod]

It ultimately depends on what you use to jump. I have R and Y as jump, with Tap Jump off. When I want to Usmash OoS, I use R to jump and then immediately C-stick up (or Usmash normally). For stuff like Nair OoS, I slide my finger from Y to A to get it out as soon as possible.

With buffering, the timing isn't too tight, just make sure you get stuff in the right order.

 

[Bigherolike6]

What do you guys do to stop yourself from using egg roll when trying to throw an egg to the side?

 

[Delta-cod]

It's all practice. What helps is to realize that you have plenty of time after starting an Egg Toss to aim it. So you should make sure you do Up B first, then aim to the side.

 

[Bigherolike6]

Also what aerial is the best to approach with? I currently use retreating fairs.

 

[Codaption]

Nair might be the best, although the poor range on that thing makes it dubious. Fair seems alright, so long as you can autocancel it properly, but I doubt it's very safe on shield. Bair........not safe at all. Kinda wish it was still like it was in Brawl, actually. It's a nice kill option, but honestly it'd be better as a wall of fast, safe hitboxes.

 

[gameplayzero]

Is this the place to ask for match up experience through 1v1s? Yoshi is a terrible match up for us and I want to get better. If there are any patient yoshi players that wouldn't mind fighting me I'd be very grateful. Message me please if you are interested.

 

[Phyr]

Yoshi does not have the speed in the neutral game, the guaranteed kill setups, and the Out of Shield options necessary to be S tier.

He has nothing fast enough to reliably use in Neutral. This means he's generally forced to try to get in or counter his opponent's approaches. These generally boil down to INCREDIBLY stacked guessing games against Yoshi.

Yoshi can't confirm kills easily. This is truly detrimental in this game because rage exists. If we can't kill, our damage is actually helping you kill us faster.

He has bad OoS options. This means we can't really deal with pressure well. This is DEVASTATING against someone like Sheik.

Basically, all these three flaws, while not crippling on their own, come together to be bad enough that Yoshi isn't amazing. He's acceptable, but not amazing.

Yet there is too many people who won't accept these facts because random people rush them on online throwing random attacks and connecting. Really depressing.

Yoshi is even worse online because she doesn't have any good coverage moves. It can be quite depressing.

Oh well, haters gonna hate.

Nair, UpB, Jab and Usmash might be some of the best attacks in the game, with some good attacks too. He has awesome air mobility too. Yet he has no good coverage options and he has to play the counter game. Is his only real option.

Plus the sheik MU is near impossible.

 

[gameplayzero]

Yet there is too many people who won't accept these facts

Yoshi does not have the speed in the neutral game, the guaranteed kill setups, and the Out of Shield options necessary to be S tier.

He has nothing fast enough to reliably use in Neutral. This means he's generally forced to try to get in or counter his opponent's approaches. These generally boil down to INCREDIBLY stacked guessing games against Yoshi.

Yoshi can't confirm kills easily. This is truly detrimental in this game because rage exists. If we can't kill, our damage is actually helping you kill us faster.

He has bad OoS options. This means we can't really deal with pressure well. This is DEVASTATING against someone like Sheik.

Basically, all these three flaws, while not crippling on their own, come together to be bad enough that Yoshi isn't amazing. He's acceptable, but not amazing.

because random people rush them on online throwing random attacks and connecting. Really depressing.

Yoshi is even worse online because she doesn't have any good coverage moves. It can be quite depressing.

Oh well, haters gonna hate.

Nair, UpB, Jab and Usmash might be some of the best attacks in the game, with some good attacks too. He has awesome air mobility too. Yet he has no good coverage options and he has to play the counter game. Is his only real option.

Plus the sheik MU is near impossible.

A character being "acceptable" would be someone like marth or kirby. Yoshi is not even close to being acceptable. The lowest you could put yoshi is "great" or "good" if you are pushing it. What you and Delta are describing are basically the mid-tiers in this game (and even some of the high tiers like sheik with not being able to kill, no reliable kill confirms, and rage). There is a reason tier list put yoshi in higher spots.

Now if you two were just comparing yoshi to the top tiers then I apologize and I agree. He doesn't have what it takes to be the in the same boat as sonic or sheik for instance.

 

[Codaption]

A character being "acceptable" would be someone like marth or kirby. Yoshi is not even close to being acceptable. The lowest you could put yoshi is "great" or "good" if you are pushing it. What you and Delta are describing are basically the mid-tiers in this game (and even some of the high tiers like sheik with not being able to kill, no reliable kill confirms, and rage). There is a reason tier list put yoshi in higher spots.

Now if you two were just comparing yoshi to the top tiers then I apologize and I agree. He doesn't have what it takes to be the in the same boat as sonic or sheik for instance.

If the tier list you speak of is the EventHubs list, then the reason he's high there is because that list makes no sense.

Yoshi is definitely a peg up from midtier, but these ARE actual problems he has that hold him back from truly shining in higher play.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No Yoshi is put around like top 3 on Shigaming for example.
But anytime we're going on about Yoshi's weaknesses and how bad they are, we're basically comparing them to like the top tiers of course cause that's what everyone is playing and what gives Yoshi the hardest time.

Otherwise we all think he's like top 12 or 16, not like top 3 or 5 lol

 

[gameplayzero]

Yoshi does not have the speed in the neutral game, the guaranteed kill setups, and the Out of Shield options necessary to be S tier.

He has nothing fast enough to reliably use in Neutral. This means he's generally forced to try to get in or counter his opponent's approaches. These generally boil down to INCREDIBLY stacked guessing games against Yoshi.

Yoshi can't confirm kills easily. This is truly detrimental in this game because rage exists. If we can't kill, our damage is actually helping you kill us faster.

He has bad OoS options. This means we can't really deal with pressure well. This is DEVASTATING against someone like Sheik.

Basically, all these three flaws, while not crippling on their own, come together to be bad enough that Yoshi isn't amazing. He's acceptable, but not amazing.

If the tier list you speak of is the EventHubs list, then the reason he's high there is because that list makes no sense.

Yoshi is definitely a peg up from midtier, but these ARE actual problems he has that hold him back from truly shining in higher play.

Definitely not event hubs. Just the various tier list that have come and gone. Even though most of them don't matter because they aren't official and/or were posted too early to be reasonable. One japanese tier list came out like 3 weeks after the game was released I'm pretty sure.

 

[Codaption]

Definitely not event hubs. Just the various tier list that have come and gone. Even though they don't matter because they aren't official and/or were posted too early to be reasonable.

If they don't matter, then why bring them up? I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that makes even less sense than EventHubs.

In any case, Delta has it about right. Top 15ish sounds around where yoshi should be.

 

[gameplayzero]

If they don't matter, then why bring them up? I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that makes even less sense than EventHubs.

because I'm proving a point that most people still think yoshi is pretty above average. Thats what I'm getting at. I just say they don't matter because I only go by official tier list. That tier list matters the most compared to others.


Eventhubs doesn't matter at all just because anyone change the tier list at any time. Even people who don't play the game. Majority of the tier list hold a lot more merit than event hubs does.

 

[Codaption]

because I'm proving a point that most people still think yoshi is pretty above average. Thats what I'm getting at. I just say they don't matter because I only go by official tier list. That tier list matters the most compared to others.


Eventhubs doesn't matter at all just because anyone change the tier list at any time. Even people who don't play the game. Majority of the tier list hold a lot more merit than event hubs does.

There really ISN'T an official tier list yet, just some matchup discussions and vague ideas of where each character is in terms of viability. That being said, I see where you're coming from.

 

[gameplayzero]

There really ISN'T an official tier list yet, just some matchup discussions and vague ideas of where each character is in terms of viability. That being said, I see where you're coming from.

yup. There hopefully won't be one for awhile so that its more accurate when it does come out. This is the fastest competitive smash game out there (in terms of how quickly tourneys and competitive play turned out at the release of the game), but I do hope people don't get a swelled head about that fact and make a quick tier list.


Sakurai still has plenty of characters to make too.

 

[Codaption]

yup. There hopefully won't be one for awhile so that its more accurate when it does come out. This is the fastest competitive smash game out there (in terms of how quickly tourneys and competitive play turned out at the release of the game), but I do hope people don't get a swelled head about that fact and make a quick tier list.


Sakurai still has plenty of characters to make too.

Judging by all of the fan-made tier lists and tier placement threads, I'd say you're a bit too late, kiddo.

 

[gameplayzero]

Judging by all of the fan-made tier lists and tier placement threads, I'd say you're a bit too late, kiddo.

I meant a quick "official" tier list. Those tier list you mentioned were the ones I said don't really matter lol. At least to me anyways. They obviously still have their use though.

 

[Delta-cod]

because I'm proving a point that most people still think yoshi is pretty above average. Thats what I'm getting at.

To clarify what my statements of value (good, bad, etc) mean when I'm talking about things, I'm comparing them to the other top tier characters.

Yoshi is "good" in the grand scheme of things. Definitely above probably 3/4s the cast in terms of character worth. But in tournament play, he's acceptable/mediocre/bad. His weaknesses are CRIPPLING against Sonic/Sheik/Diddy(?), and these characters are common picks in tournaments. If Yoshi can't handle common threats, regardless of how acceptable his tools are, he's passable at best, but probably bad.

Assuming we're comparing to top tiers.

 

[gameplayzero]

To clarify what my statements of value (good, bad, etc) mean when I'm talking about things, I'm comparing them to the other top tier characters.

Yoshi is "good" in the grand scheme of things. Definitely above probably 3/4s the cast in terms of character worth. But in tournament play, he's acceptable/mediocre/bad. His weaknesses are CRIPPLING against Sonic/Sheik/Diddy(?), and these characters are common picks in tournaments. If Yoshi can't handle common threats, regardless of how acceptable his tools are, he's passable at best, but probably bad.

Assuming we're comparing to top tiers.

I apologize then for the top part of my first post. I agree with your statement (which is why you barely see any yoshis in tourneys). I can't stand sonic (especially with the hammer custom). Idk how you guys deal with him.

 

[Delta-cod]

No apologies necessary. I'm not always clear with my reference frame when judging things in this game, and there are many valid ways of looking at it.

I've never played against customs Sonic, so I dunno what to say about that.

 

[AirJordans]

I apologize then for the top part of my first post. I agree with your statement (which is why you barely see any yoshis in tourneys). I can't stand sonic (especially with the hammer custom). Idk how you guys deal with him.

Where in California are you from? Have you fought Mocha(really good spin dash Sonic from NorCal)

 

[GSM_Dren]

Sorry for coming into the current conversation a bit late but as it stands now I think Yoshi is around the 10-15 mark. Gone are the days where we thought he was top 5 (although many people still put him around that area). And going from what Slush and Delta said above, Yoshi is a great character compared to the entire cast, but he falls drastically behind when compared to the higher tiered characters.

I really love yoshi's character, and I'm for sure going to keep maining him. However, for me to get into top 5 at tournaments, I'm going to need a secondary to fall back on like the rest of the players. So, I'm already in the process of training that secondary and hopefully getting the results I want.

 

[gameplayzero]

Where in California are you from? Have you fought Mocha(really good spin dash Sonic from NorCal)

I have not. I am in Norcal though so I'll ask around. I'm trying to fight sonic to prepare for tourneys, but every sonic main is too busy doing whatever else to care. I've asked on their player finder too with no luck.

 

[Zelbur]

I was wondering if Yoshi has any moves that can hit an opponent right before they grab the ledge. If so, what is the best one to use? (Ike's Neutral-B is an example of the type of move I'm talking about, because it has a huge hitbox)

 

[DragN]

His f-air can "swipe" people approaching the ledge