Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Delta-cod]

@ TheReflexWonder Nah, I dunno what the case with that is. I know people like Diddy can swat them away just fine...

What are you trying to swat them with?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario B-Air/F-Air, Jigglypuff N-Air/F-Air. Most of those are lingering hitboxes, so I figure they shouldn't have problems, even if the hitboxes aren't massively disjointed.

 

[Kevdo]

Wario B-Air/F-Air, Jigglypuff N-Air/F-Air. Most of those are lingering hitboxes, so I figure they shouldn't have problems, even if the hitboxes aren't massively disjointed.

Interesting observation. I wonder what the egg hitboxes look like. Considering they explode, might they have a hitbox similar to Link's bombs?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Feel like because something like Diddy Uair/Fair is massively disjointed is why you get hit by them. Though there's been instances Sonic and C.falcon's Fsmash for example hits the egg and myself while he doesn't get hit.

Maybe just really is massively disjointed hitboxes to get rid of the egg. Wario and Jiggly being fat and their hitboxes still in their bodies is why they get hit most likely.

 

[Codaption]

I'm not new to Smash, but haven't ever put time into trying to be better than just those immediately around me before. If anyone could give me some pointers on this stuff, I'd really appreciate it.

Hmm....since not many people seemed to notice this, I'll help out with what I can.

* Learn how to reliably tech and SDI

For teching, it's all about timing. You have to press the button slightly before you land on whatever surface (up to ten frames before, aka 1/6 of a second)

* Use more Nair

Nair has lowish range and power, but is fast and has a lingering hitbox just like any other sex kick. It's useful in any situation that calls for a fast or long-lasting move, such as out of shield (like you mentioned, we can jump out of it now). It also doesn't have TOO much landing lag iirc, so that's good.

* Use more short hop Up-Bs (is tossing an egg in front of us the only truly "safe" approach we have?)

It very well could be, although the jab combo can't really be punished by nature. Eggs are generally one of the best options we have, period. They're an amazing projectile due to how versatile they are, while being decently fast enough to set up for lots of fun shenanigans.

* Get WAY better about sweet-spotting Fair

The sweetspot is on the lower part of the arc. Hope that helps a bit.

* Be less aggressive (I love to be on offense, but I generally just wind up getting punished)

You don't have to stop playing aggressively, as long as you know what you're doing. The best thing to do is to use a lot of quick, difficult-to-punish moves (like jab combo and tilts).
Yoshi's smash attacks are fast, but not kirby Fsmash fast. Don't get greedy, only use them when you've got a good read on them (a general rule for any character). Know when to shield or dodge, because the difference between the two is fairly important. And most of all, know when to turn the aggro on and off.

Do we have any safe ways of applying shield pressure that won't just get me jabbed to death or shield grabbed?

Eggs and jab combo are two that work fine, but neither put much pressure on shields. Pivot grab is looking pretty good here (we have one of the best, if not THE best in the game).

Also, are there any good strings or defensive options that shine during heavy lag? My internet is 100Mbps down and 10Mbps up and still every 2nd or 3rd player has noticeable lag. Other players seem to have adapted to this and just queue up inputs (had a G&W take me from 0 -> 70+% through lag just from what looked to be a memorized string of his). Is there either a fairly reliable string (assume the opponent isn't going to DI or move) or a common defensive maneuver (just spam spot dodges or something?) that would allow me to deal with low-input situations like this?

Laggy online matches are generally exception to this rule, but even so...never, EVER assume that an opponent won't DI. Even if they can't do it on reaction, they could easily do it by mistake, so you have to always keep DI in mind. Otherwise you're just inviting failure.
As for reliable strings... Utilt, Utilt, Uair, (jump) Uair, egg tossed upwards. Works wonders for me, though only at low percents. Another fun one is sweetspotted Fair to Usmash, but that one's situational (you have to catch them by surprise so that they don't tech the meteor).

I've definitely settled on Yoshi as a main, but I've come to agree with what Delta-cod and Enoki have said above. Our dinosaur is awesome, but probably not "top tier" material for a few key reasons. But, I'm committed now, so I'd like to figure out how to deal with his (and my) weaknesses.

Yoshi is AWESOME now. That being said, nobody here would disagree with that statement. His gimpable recovery is still a prominent issue that we have to work around, and his shield (while slightly stronger than the other fighters, and immune to shield stabs) is slidier than a greased Luigi, which can sometimes hinder our already lacking out of shield options. That being said, he's mobile on both the ground and the air, and can be very adaptable when he wants to be.

With all that out of the way, let me officially welcome you as a new member of SmashBoards!

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Eggs have normal projectile priority but have 2 hits. If an attack is strong enough to out-prioritize the first hit (does 9+% more) it will beat out the first hit and clash with/out prioritize the 2nd hit. If the attack doesn't out-prioritize the 1st hit then they clash with that hit and are open for the 2nd hit. Disjoints can also activate the egg from a safe distance regardless of priority.

For those wondering, the explosion hitbox is about the same size as the egg.

 

[Kevdo]

Eggs have normal projectile priority but have 2 hits. If an attack is strong enough to out-prioritize the first hit (does 9+% more) it will beat out the first hit and clash with/out prioritize the 2nd hit. If the attack doesn't out-prioritize the 1st hit then they clash with that hit and are open for the 2nd hit. Disjoints can also activate the egg from a safe distance regardless of priority.

For those wondering, the explosion hitbox is about the same size as the egg.

Ah, if this is accurate, then it's not too different from Link's bombs. Do you know if that second hitbox does more damage than the first, or vice versa?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Ah, if this is accurate, then it's not too different from Link's bombs. Do you know if that second hitbox does more damage than the first, or vice versa?

1st hitbox does 1% 2nd hitbox does 5%

 

[Marrow]

I've been playing casually since Melee, and in every iteration Yoshi has been my dedicated main. With Smash 4 I'm just starting to dip my toes into the competitive scene, and still rocking Yoshi. However, he gets little attention in competitive play outside of a few notable players, such as aMSa in Melee. When I started learning about the ins and outs of Sm4sh's metagame, it looks like everybody's favorite mini-Godzilla is much higher in the rankings this time around. Since I don't know a lot about competitive play, I don't really know how he changed (aside from a new dash-attack and up smash), but he definitely feels improved. So what I'm asking is, how has Yoshi changed from previous Smash games to Smash 4? Is it changes to Yoshi himself, or simply the mechanics of the game better favoring him?

 

[Delta-cod]

I've been playing casually since Melee, and in every iteration Yoshi has been my dedicated main. With Smash 4 I'm just starting to dip my toes into the competitive scene, and still rocking Yoshi. However, he gets little attention in competitive play outside of a few notable players, such as aMSa in Melee. When I started learning about the ins and outs of Sm4sh's metagame, it looks like everybody's favorite mini-Godzilla is much higher in the rankings this time around. Since I don't know a lot about competitive play, I don't really know how he changed (aside from a new dash-attack and up smash), but he definitely feels improved. So what I'm asking is, how has Yoshi changed from previous Smash games to Smash 4? Is it changes to Yoshi himself, or simply the mechanics of the game better favoring him?

Merged with the Q&A thread.

To answer the question (from a Brawl to Smash 4 perspective, as that's all I know), Yoshi has generally received better power/frame data on his normals, it feels like. This isn't the case for every move, but in general it holds. So he'll feel better for sure, especially if you're already familiar with him. Plus, he can now jump out of shield! However, a few key moves have changed for the worse, which kind of counterbalance the positives he's received.

He still doesn't have much in the way of a neutral game. Pivot grab has horrendous end lag on whiff, so it's not a go to move in neutral. This basically means we can't camp anymore, so we need to approach. Unfortunately, Yoshi's approaches are still bad. Dash grab has less slide and less effective reach, it feels like, so we can't surprise people with that. Bair is slow and doesn't really autocancel. Nair has no range. Fair has some delightfully wonky properties, but it's kinda not good on shield, and in order to autocancel it you must start it immediately as you do a SH, which limits its effectiveness, as this has a lot of approachable holes.

We've also lost our aerial/Egg Lay mixup somewhat, as default Egg Lay has had its startup nerfed (it takes longer to come out now, longer than Fair does), so we don't even really have that guessing game.

Basically, in a vacuum, it looks like he's really good. But he still lacks some fundamental aspects of a good character (namely, a reliable tool for the neutral game), and this will severely hamper him as the meta progresses and people stop getting gimmicked by him.

 

[Codaption]

Not the best place to ask, I know, but idk where else to go.

What exactly defines the neutral, advantaged, and disadvantaged game? The basic idea behind them is fairly obvious, but I don't know how they apply, if that makes sense. What makes it so that Yoshi is in the advantage/disadvantage in this sense?

 

[Delta-cod]

The neutral game is, in my opinion, the bulk of the game, and is the most important part. At neutral, both characters are fighting for stage control. It's generally easy to recognize: the two characters are weaving in and out, trying to poke each other with safe moves, trying to bait the other into doing something punishable, etc. At neutral, neither character is at a strict disadvantage (although some characters have better neutral than others). Both characters should have all their options available to them, strictly speaking, and generally the goal is to force your opponent into a bad position, usually by hitting them or forcing them to the edge.

Advantaged/disadvantaged come after the neutral game. If you got hit/were forced to the edge, you're disadvantaged. If you punished a mistake/made a read/took stage control, you're advantaged. Generally, the advantaged state is one in which you've forced your opponent into a position where they have fewer options, and you have the ability to make easy option coverages/follow ups for more damage, a kill, or stage control. If you're disadvantaged, you don't have too many of your options (you'll probably be offstage or forced into the air above your opponent), and most of the options you do have kind of suck. The goal in advantage is to stay in the advantaged state, by repeatedly forcing your opponent into making mistakes or just having an easy frame trap to continue doing. In disadvantage, your goal is to reset to neutral. This usually involves jumping away from the situation, trying to get to the ledge to stop being above someone, air dodges, etc.

You can also try to do a reversal, which is going from disadvantage to advantage. This usually happens when the advantaged person goes too deep to try to force his advantage, overextending and thus losing all his good positioning. You never want to get reversal'd, since it means you've lost all the benefits advantage once gave you. Even if you can't directly hit someone in disadvantage, you can probably maintain a large amount of stage control, which will make winning the next neutral game easier, so it's important to know when to hold yourself back. Examples of going to deep: Double jumping up to try to UAir a fast faller, who then FF Airdodges past you, and is now on the ground while you're still falling. Or going way off stage for an edge guard, missing, and now being the one offstage while your opponent has the full stage.

Yoshi's got some good reversal tools, mainly Nair. Aerial Down B kinda works too. When fighting characters with good reversals, you generally need to respect those tools and either know what you have that directly beats them, or bait them out then punish.

 

[Codaption]

Alright, thanks! This helped a lot for me.

 

[menotyou135]

What maps are good and bad for yoshi and why?

Any that are really important for certain matchups to pick or avoid?

 

[Delta-cod]

What maps are good and bad for yoshi and why?

Any that are really important for certain matchups to pick or avoid?

Merged with the Q&A thread.

Yoshi is generally good on all stages, so selection really boils down to the match up. Against super campy characters, you'll want to avoid stages with low platforms (Battlefield, for example), since we struggle to approach characters under platforms. I don't have any other blanket suggestions to make, however. If there are specific match ups you'd like advice with, you could ask and I'd be able to give more help.

 

[Poodles]

Hello SmashBoards community! I'm new to the world of SSB with the new 3DS game and, out of all characters, Yoshi is my favorite and main character.

Like I said earlier, I'm new to this and I'm still a little bit lost with all the combos etc. Would y'all share some tips with me? Thanks in advance!

 

[Yoshi-hara]

The Hint Block Q&A thread is a more appropriate place for questions
Try asking there.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hello SmashBoards community! I'm new to the world of SSB with the new 3DS game and, out of all characters, Yoshi is my favorite and main character.

Like I said earlier, I'm new to this and I'm still a little bit lost with all the combos etc. Would y'all share some tips with me? Thanks in advance!

Merged with the Q&A thread.

As for a good set of beginner's tips, you might want to try reading Nikes' guide: http://smashboards.com/guides/yoshis-story-survival-guide.27/

That should get you started. I highly recommend playing a bunch and experimenting on your own though. It'll help you acquire a deeper understanding of the game and really individualize your playstyle. I'm not a fan of teaching people to emulate others. However, you should always come here if you have any questions! Brick walling yourself from progress is no good either.

 

[Ffamran]

Weird question, but has anyone heard of PKSparkxx? Recent videos had him say he's competitive, but I don't think he's gone to big tournaments and might just be local competitive if that makes any sense.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No haven't heard much of him

 

[Ffamran]

Guess he's just a local tournament goer. For reference, TheRunawayGuys are hosting a friendlies tournament and people like JonTron, cobanermani456 who plays Sonic a lot, Smooth McGroove who was there thinking it was Mario Kart because Chuggaaconroy sent the wrong video to him which screwed him over any relevant practice, and other Youtubers well-known or not. Well, PKSparkxx was there and since it's a hodgepodge of people playing, he, cobanermani, JonTron, ProtonJon who had to go through qualifiers despite being one of the TRG, Yoshiller, and Mal were the better players, and I was wondering since PKSparkxx has a solid Yoshi. His Yoshi's nothing exceptional, but when he plays, you can tell he's playing a bit more competitively like cobanermani while JonTron, ProtonJon, and Yoshiller are more like I know how this games works and I can play well and then you have the rest... I have no idea what whoever and I'm assuming it was Chugga thinking putting people together like that and not informing Smooth McGroove it was a Smash tournament and not a Mario Kart tournament. There's a huge skill gap with some of the videos like Yoshiller vs. Lucahjin while others like ProtonJon vs. Yoshiller are more even and don't mention the textbook Roll Glory Link... No offense, but it was painful watching that tactic was effective offline. Anyway, I digress.

Whatever... Here's a link to PKSparkxx's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/DatHottneSS, and yeah, he does have some SSB4 videos, but I don't think he has any from tournaments. Well, if you all want, you could contact him and ask about his tournament placings and such.

 

[Artmastercorey]

Question yoshi mains, Does yoshi suffer alittle less hitstun than others? Seems like when you hit him, he hits you back immediately.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No he doesn't, people just hitting him during his DJ armor.

 

[Artmastercorey]

No he doesn't, people just hitting him during his DJ armor.

Thank you for the reply Slush. When is a good opportunity to hit yoshi? He seems to have a lot of advantages and doesnt seem to lag hardly at all. Im not sure where his weakness's lie.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Aerial wise his Fair has decently long windup and extends his reach, thus his hurtbox so it makes him easier to hit.
His bair is bad, should almost never get hit by Uair cause the airdodge is better in this game, Nair good cause it comes out frame 3 but lasts an insanely long time compared to Villager Pac-man etc. in terms of frame 3 nairs, our nair also almost never kills. Dair is, while 33/34% damage move, is connected to hit body so any decent sized aerial (diddy uair lolol) will hit him like he never even threw the move out.

If he's using short hop egg tosses, just run under him and punish. There's a decent sized window where he can't do anything for awhile, shouldn't be afraid of eggs either since they do like 1% or 6%.

There's a lot of holes in Yoshi's basic play, mostly no kill setups and having to work twice as hard to land even one of three (or four if somebody wants to say Uair) of his main kill moves and the fact his grab game is booty and he can't approach still just like melee and brawl while also having not many reliable moves to use for a punish when someone hits your shield.

 

[Artmastercorey]

There's a lot of holes in Yoshi's basic play, mostly no kill setups and having to work twice as hard to land even one of three (or four if somebody wants to say Uair) of his main kill moves and the fact his grab game is booty and he can't approach still just like melee and brawl while also having not many reliable moves to use for a punish when someone hits your shield.

Ok thank you again Slush.

From my perspective as a Zoner Main, I'd say he has plenty of approach options, eggs may have slight cool down but not much compared to some zone based characters projectiles so it's hard to punish him unless you are a speedy character. Plus they come out faster than most projectiles and create a good amount of hitstun for yoshi to follow up. Most I can do against eggs is dodge or try to get under him if he jumps too high because they come out so fast.

His grab game is great compared to say a link, villager, samus, ect. He can grab from the air, and he has an extended grab. Even if there's alittle space between the tongue and your foe for example. And since he has such a fast extended dash grab its hard to run from. Yoshi is packed with approaches from my end, but I do understand as a yoshi main you can see his faults much clearer.

Also when someone hits your shield you can do the instant air butt move, or jab I thought? My biggest issue with yoshi is the inability to get an attack in. You have to hit him with caution on the ground or in the air because he retaliates so quickly. His moves are quick, great reach, and little lag, especially the lag part because he just keeps coming at you. He's such a great character.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well most of the top tiers are very speedy characters or just Rosalina, so he's going to have trouble with just about anyone. Diddy Sheik Sonic Fox C.falcon etc.

Neutral B command grab isn't as good as it used to be cause it takes 20+ frames to use it now and grab armor no longer exists, it's really hard to think of the idea "good grabs" when we have to land them in order to not get punished.
Yoshi's pivot grab is like 1 frame to being the worst in the game, but pac-man takes that title. Which is a huge downgrade from his old pivot grab from Brawl.

Usually moves that hit our shield pushes us away, downB isn't really good unless you mean powershielded then it can prolly work, jab might reach regardless of powershield or not. And again, his moves have lag.
Just they either come out fast but last for another second (nair) or have long reach but decent windup (Fair) bair is slow and can't autocancel at all from short hop, Dair has no range whatsoever, and Uair can be avoided if people spam Airdodge since airdodge was universally buffed in this game.

 

[PraiseTheSquid]

I've seen a couple of videos of people B reversing with Yoshi and I must know how to do it.
I have a basic understanding of it but I want to know how people are able to continue moving with the momentum of the reversal of the attack.
If anyone has a good way of explaining it please do so.
If anyone wants a link to someone doing this i gladly provide

 

[Masonomace]

Welcome to smashboards @ PraiseTheSquid . I believe this would of been best to ask about this in the Q&A Thread rather than making a thread about it but I'll answer it here in case a Mod merges this thread to there or something.

B-Reversing Egg Lay & B-Reversing Egg Throw are pretty solid, & to perform them, I'll show button layouts of both Special moves:

Egg Lay:

B-Reversing Right = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting left) » & immediately afterwards Tap
B-Reversing Left = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting right) » & immediately afterwards Tap


Egg Throw: (This is how I do it. Any Yoshi player that reads this, please correct me if I'm wrong)

B-Reversing Right = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting left) » » & immediately Tap to
B-Reversing Left = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting right) » » & immediately Tap to

 

[PraiseTheSquid]

Welcome to smashboards @ PraiseTheSquid . I believe this would of been best to ask about this in the rather than making a thread about it but I'll answer it here in case a Mod merges this thread to there or something.

B-Reversing Egg Lay & B-Reversing Egg Throw are pretty solid, & to perform them, I'll show button layouts of both Special moves:

Egg Lay:

B-Reversing Right = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting left) » & immediately afterwards Tap
B-Reversing Left = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting right) » & immediately afterwards Tap


Egg Throw: (This is how I do it. Any Yoshi player that reads this, please correct me if I'm wrong)

B-Reversing Right = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting left) » » & immediately Tap to
B-Reversing Left = (Have some momentum by running or air drifting right) » » & immediately Tap to

I got the Egg toss reverse pretty down pact after reading this thank you so much.
Still working on the egg lay, I can get the reversal but the momentum seems to stop there.

Edit: to be specific on my inquiry...
When I egg toss reverse Yoshi changes directions and begins to move in the direction I reversed to, which is what I want to do with the egg lay.
I think the reason I can do it with the egg toss is because the egg toss allows you to hold the direction you'd like to to move will throwing the egg, but if you hold the direction you want to go with egg lay Yoshi will do egg roll instead.

Got it!
Time to practice it!

 

[Delta-cod]

@ PraiseTheSquid Your thread has been merged with the Q&A thread. Glad your question got answered!

 

[Wingz003]

just wanted to say hi to everyone.
and i mean everyone. yea baby

 

[pato_]

What would you guys say are Yoshi's bread and butter? Is there anything as obvious as Ness' pk fire -> dthrow -> fairx17? (I might be exaggerating a bit but hopefully you get the point )

I ask because while I love playing with Yoshi and sometimes come up with some great looking (to me, at least) strings, I'm not always sure of what I did and like a schmuck I forget to save the replay to see it later so I'd love to hear what you guys think and with that in mind hit the lab!

Also, I never use the Yoshi Bomb (that's the down special, right?)....should I?

thanks in advance!

 

[DragN]

Jab-> Jab-> Dash attack-> up air strings?
Jab -> jab-> dash grab f-throw?
Soft hit n-air -> clean n-air -> clean n-air -> f-air?

 

[Delta-cod]

Jab > Down B is also pretty standard. Jab > Usmash works sometimes too.

Also consider learning how Eggs set up for moves. If you SH, throw an Egg, and follow it, and it connects, you basically have free anything. You can Egg > Uair, Egg > Nair, Egg > Fair, Egg > any aerial, really. Maybe you can get some faster grounded moves in too, depending on the timing.

 

[pato_]

Awesome, thanks a lot guys!
SH Eggs into anything is always great, I'll give the jab+down B thing a try, maybe that could turn into a kill option...

 

[Delta-cod]

It is a kill option, just not an entirely reliable one. But you should definitely try using it as one. We've gotta take what we can get for kills.

 

[pato_]

Trying to always rely on hard reads for an usmash or uair can be troublesome sometimes haha

 

[Reaper Talk]

What are Yoshi's best and worst stages?

 

[Codaption]

What are Yoshi's best and worst stages?

"Yoshi is generally good on all stages, so selection really boils down to the match up. Against super campy characters, you'll want to avoid stages with low platforms (Battlefield, for example), since we struggle to approach characters under platforms." @ Delta-cod