Hierarchies of Power: The Ganon Community Tier List! (Updated October 8th 2017)

[HeavyLobster]

Feel like I probably belong in C tier. Of people on this list that I've played, I've gone fairly even with @ jmanup85 and @Blobface and gotten beaten pretty handily by @ Vermanubis .

 

[Garioshi]

Also, for the record, I'm better than -VictoriaJustice- (in 1v1s, he kicks ass in ffas), but worse than Opana. They're are the only two on the list I've played.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Interesting, I'll certainly enjoy playing you all once I'm out of school next week.

 

[ToonWaker]

May I verse you A2ZOMG I don't care if whether I stand a chance or not I will never know until I try I am the one who comes back no matter what and will never waiver and be phased no matter what.

 

[A2ZOMG]

May I verse you A2ZOMG I don't care if whether I stand a chance or not I will never know until I try I am the one who comes back no matter what and will never waiver and be phased no matter what.

I'll play any Ganon players. I have fun analyzing the playstyles of others, so go ahead and add me. Starting next week on Wednesday, I should have flexible availability. Morning or evening are preferred.

At some point I'm gonna rage to Nintendo that 100 friends simply isn't enough...

 

[Vermanubis]

I noticed the top spots changed around a bit. Under what criteria is the current top arranged?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I noticed the top spots changed around a bit. Under what criteria is the current top arranged?

Good question!

Honestly it's open to discussion. @ Ray_Kalm talked to me about his observations of playstyles, and also I can't disregard his tournament results are strong, while Pon has very few tournament results. While I acknowledge this would probably be a good time for me to cite specific recent examples of gameplay I observed, I will just say very quickly that I believe Ray_Kalm has advanced his playstyle more than Pon has. Slightly better mechanics, and many of us have caught up on matchup knowledge, an area where Pon was ahead of most of us.

Frankly, come to think of it, I'd probably personally argue you're better than Pon as well. Both from a results perspective, and analysis of where playstyles have ended up. You both play pretty conservatively, but sometimes I feel you have better reflexes for spacing dependent punishes, while Pon relies more on shielding things carefully.

I do also intend to communicate to our Japanese friends what we've observed.

I apologize if the change seemed sudden. For me, it wasn't, just I haven't always explained everything from moment to moment.

 

[Vermanubis]

Good question!

Honestly it's open to discussion. @ Ray_Kalm talked to me about his observations of playstyles, and also I can't disregard his tournament results are strong, while Pon has very few tournament results. While I acknowledge this would probably be a good time for me to cite specific recent examples of gameplay I observed, I will just say very quickly that I believe Ray_Kalm has advanced his playstyle more than Pon has. Slightly better mechanics, and many of us have caught up on matchup knowledge, an area where Pon was ahead of most of us.

Frankly, come to think of it, I'd probably personally argue you're better than Pon as well. Both from a results perspective, and analysis of where playstyles have ended up. You both play pretty conservatively, but sometimes I feel you have better reflexes for spacing dependent punishes, while Pon relies more on shielding things carefully.

I do also intend to communicate to our Japanese friends what we've observed.

I apologize if the change seemed sudden. For me, it wasn't, just I haven't always explained everything from moment to moment.

Fair enough! Though I <would> like to give my perspective on everything:

The thing will likely remained undigested in me for a while is the degree to which subjective criteria are given precedence. I definitely agree that due to uneven competition, metric data alone can't account for everything (though, I think including details about the tournament would help solve this), for example, getting 1st at a tourney where no ranked players showed versus a regional with a stacked bracket of PR players.

But as I've mentioned before, on the flip side, WiFi friendlies, while indicative of many things, leaves out some very vital things: I think any honest Ganon knows the humbling difference between his best cherry-picked highlights, and his all or nothing tournament set against a high-quality player with a lot to lose. In that sense, as much as I respect Gungnir and Pon, I'll never feel right about Ganons such as Kalm or myself who put in work in actual tournaments ranking lower. The message being sent, in essence, is that one need not waste the effort on seriously competing so long as they can prepare choice cuts for Youtube.

This, of course, isn't to say that what we see in friendlies isn't indicative of what we'd see in tournament. But there is indeed a reason why tournament performance is the metric.

Secondly, Kalm mentioned he just got off from a 4-month break from tournaments. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I say this in earnest -- please do!), but in terms of tournament results, I've attended three tournaments, each within the range of 45-50+ entrants with almost all PRs attending, and gone 3rd, 4th, 3rd. Kalm, as I see from the SWF rankings, has one top 5 placement (or two, if we include his placing at the low-tier tourney today), Gungnir who has one, which I think by now is safe to call outdated, and Pon none.

I have no burning desire to be where I don't belong. Even now, I feel uncomfortable saying in subjectivity that I or any other Ganon in that range is superior to another. But I'd feel best if there were more reverence for the objective measurements, since at this point, being 4th despite what appear to be the most consistent/highest placings against demonstrable high-quality competition, I feel that should I make it a goal to go higher, I'd do better to impress people in Ganon dittos and earn personal favor than invest in competing. (and by personal favor, I mean play in such a way that someone happens to like more)

 

[adom4]

snip

Man, reading all that makes me jealous that i can't attend big tournaments, the only non online ones i can attend are local & the scene here isn't very big :/.
It does inspire me to try & go abroad to a few big tournaments though, mostly for the feel & the chance to play against top players offline.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Vermanubis all good points. Now part of why I feel justified in keeping Gungnir at the very top is he DOES attend tournaments. His results in many ways are not necessarily as impressive as those of @ Ray_Kalm , however at the same time, from what little of I know, he's often entered some very stacked tournaments. Unfortunately, I haven't found much data about his placings, other than there's evidence from SHI-G and their few youtube videos that feature him that he gets knocked out of tournament by some pretty stiff competition.

Amusingly enough, Ray_Kalm now also gets compared to Gungnir by the Japanese. As adoration for both, if that makes sense (comments in the vein of "Is Gungnir overseas?!"). While this obviously is quite subjective, it's just interesting to note how highly they are regarded by our friends from Japan.

At any rate though, hearing your opinion sorta confirms that there's good reason to move around more people around the upper ranks. I agree that the work you and Kalm have put in tournament deserves notice. Now, something I could use help with is how to format important tournament results (as well as track them down). As I recall, Kalm placed also 1st in a tournament with Ganon, but I haven't yet found out the details of which tournament it was.

To be honest, I'm sorta feeling like Pon has competition skill-wise with most of who we have or might be considering in the A tier. Again, a lot of us have been catching up in skill, which to his credit, we learned a lot of things from his playstyle.

 

[jmanup85]

Tourney results should be the responsibility of the person who attended to get the info and post it here if they want recognition and such. The Marth boards have something like that (then again the Marth boards are so organized that it's scary) and it works for them. I can't really comment on upper tier placing because I'm not there so yeah. The Japanese players are the toughest to keep track of with their tourney placings but if anything I can ask some of people I know for placings on some players and I can see what I find, if it's needed.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@ A2ZOMG @ Vermanubis why don't you make a tournament thread, where everyone submits their tournament results?

 

[Z1GMA]

GGs, @ A2ZOMG .
I think it's time to put @ Tonsana in the tiers.
I enjoyed watching you two battle - You both are so patient.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Tonsana clearly learned well from @ Z1GMA .The games had noticeable delay but I would say he's definitely better than me overall. He plays his negative state really carefully and plays solid defense in neutral. He also adapts pretty quickly and doesn't get impatient easily.

I won't put him in A tier quite yet as there isn't a huge amount of visibility for him currently, but he could possibly be argued for it. If Opana was a defensive player, tonsana seems to have about that much technical skill.

 

[Vermanubis]

@ Vermanubis all good points. Now part of why I feel justified in keeping Gungnir at the very top is he DOES attend tournaments. His results in many ways are not necessarily as impressive as those of @ Ray_Kalm , however at the same time, from what little of I know, he's often entered some very stacked tournaments. Unfortunately, I haven't found much data about his placings, other than there's evidence from SHI-G and their few youtube videos that feature him that he gets knocked out of tournament by some pretty stiff competition.

Amusingly enough, Ray_Kalm now also gets compared to Gungnir by the Japanese. As adoration for both, if that makes sense (comments in the vein of "Is Gungnir overseas?!"). While this obviously is quite subjective, it's just interesting to note how highly they are regarded by our friends from Japan.

At any rate though, hearing your opinion sorta confirms that there's good reason to move around more people around the upper ranks. I agree that the work you and Kalm have put in tournament deserves notice. Now, something I could use help with is how to format important tournament results (as well as track them down). As I recall, Kalm placed also 1st in a tournament with Ganon, but I haven't yet found out the details of which tournament it was.

To be honest, I'm sorta feeling like Pon has competition skill-wise with most of who we have or might be considering in the A tier. Again, a lot of us have been catching up in skill, which to his credit, we learned a lot of things from his playstyle.

First off, I agree with Rizen and Jman: we should definitely make a results threads and have anyone who can contribute their performances. That's something a lot of other boards have that would do us a lot of good, imo. As far as formatting, I think the best way to go about it would be to have the person in question post their results, giving a few details about the tournament (size, PR presence, who you beat, videos if possible, etc.)

Secondly, I'm sure I've articulated my thoughts enough, so I don't have much more to say, but in regard to Gungnir, I think it's certainly worthwhile to ask him what some of his placements are. I looked through Shi-g's stuff, and every video I found of Gungnir was from an online tourney. "Shi-g ガノンドロフ" gave four videos: two of Gungnir and two of Pon, one of which was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zrtTPDCWcc, which looks like it's from an online tourney. Was that one of the vids you were talking about? As for him being at the very top, if his tourney results are lacking, in spite of how beastly his uploads are, I'm not saying it's a given that we <should> move him around -- after all, he may belong there, but given the facts we have, I feel like any spot in the upper eschalon is negotiable.

As for the 1st placing for Kalm, I looked, too, but couldn't find much. I've been curious about that one, but again, he mentioned in the social that this past tourney was his first in four months, so I'm kinda confused.

My last bit for now is just to restate what I mentioned already about how I know it's tremendously difficult to balance everything, all things being unequal. But the reason I've always been so heavily opposed to judging off of friendlies is because I've both seen and personally experienced the antithetic difference between styling in friendlies against someone who <appears> good on the 10th match after you've both had ample time to download each other, and going in raw against a hardened tourney vet with everything to lose.


Also @ adom4 I feel you, dude! I'm fortunately a bit more fortunate than you in regard to my tournameny locality, but I understand the struggle of tournaments being a BIG commitment.

 

[King K. Rool the great]

No Goku for smash brothers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Vermanubis not to impose, but I think it would be good if you ran a tournament results thread for us. I believe you have all the right ideas, and I don't really disagree with anything you suggested. As a player who rarely gets out to major tournaments for that matter, I wouldn't consider myself an authority on that.

(No I am not secretly trying to avoid responsibility, rather I take your stance seriously )

 

[Vermanubis]

No Goku for smash brothers.

I'mma pretend this is a convincing argument to include Ganon in the next DBZ game.

@ A2ZOMG : With all the work you put in for us, the last thing I'd think is that you're trying to cop out. It's no trouble at all. Gimme a day or two and I'll have it all up and ready to go.

 

[King K. Rool the great]

@ Vermanubis not to impose, but I think it would be good if you ran a tournament results thread for us. I believe you have all the right ideas, and I don't really disagree with anything you suggested. As a player who rarely gets out to major tournaments for that matter, I wouldn't consider myself an authority on that.

(No I am not secretly trying to avoid responsibility, rather I take your stance seriously )

That was very nice if you were talking to me.

 

[Tonsana]

@ Tonsana clearly learned well from @ Z1GMA .The games had noticeable delay but I would say he's definitely better than me overall. He plays his negative state really carefully and plays solid defense in neutral. He also adapts pretty quickly and doesn't get impatient easily.

I won't put him in A tier quite yet as there isn't a huge amount of visibility for him currently, but he could possibly be argued for it. If Opana was a defensive player, tonsana seems to have about that much technical skill.

Good games a2zzomg. Youre spacing is super good and why is all the top dorfs so patient? You are stong in edgeguaring too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Good games a2zzomg. Youre spacing is super good and why is all the top dorfs so patient? You are stong in edgeguaring too.

I think Ganon by design is a very respectful character. I am not sure why many call his highlights "disrespect". Ganon depends on knowing his opponent and what they will do. In this way, Ganon requires a lot of thought in making decisions. Thus as you take Ganon to a higher level, you have to increasingly manage to stay calm under pressure to make good decisions.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A tournament result thread would make things much easier.

@ Vermanubis , this went past my head, but I did attend a tournament a bit over 2 months ago with non custom settings where I placed first.

 

[Z1GMA]

@ Tonsana clearly learned well from @ Z1GMA .The games had noticeable delay but I would say he's definitely better than me overall. He plays his negative state really carefully and plays solid defense in neutral. He also adapts pretty quickly and doesn't get impatient easily.

I won't put him in A tier quite yet as there isn't a huge amount of visibility for him currently, but he could possibly be argued for it. If Opana was a defensive player, tonsana seems to have about that much technical skill.

While he's very good at Ganon Dittos, I think you have more experience when it comes to MUs and stuff.

 

[Garioshi]

His highlights are disrespect because of Ganoncide, utilt, dair, and chain choking. If hit with any of those, it's massive disrespect.

 

[HeavyLobster]

His highlights are disrespect because of Ganoncide, utilt, dair, and chain choking. If hit with any of those, it's massive disrespect.

Warlock Punch is the ultimate disrespect. Dair and Chain Chokes require reads, but aren't always disrespectful depending on the circumstances. Ganoncide and Utilt are somewhat disrespectful, though there are situations where they are the optimal choice to go for rather than just disrespect.

 

[Opana]

I've only been to two tourneys, one where I came in 4th losing to Boss(In October), and a round Robin where I only dropped one set and beat some sponsored player(November). Honestly the more notable things I've done are fight Dabuz(only get him to like 70%, awhile ago). Acid(We go even a good deal although some games he just steam rolls me with good momentum, played again in like early April.), Troof(We were pretty even as well last we fought in maybe March, customs on.), ZeRo(Played 4 games vs. his Sheik, lost the first two bad, third I did pretty good, 4th was last hit I think in March.), Dath(#10 SFL Powerrankings, he wins more using Robin, haven't fought his others in awhile and fought last week.), and aside from dorf mains I think that's it. I know they're not tourney results but the best I can do is offer up names of skilled players where I've done noticeablely well against here and there, (Not always but better lately.). I don't do too well in mirrors imo. Wish I had some more recent tourney results for you guys, not much I can do about that atm though.

Also, I feel my tech skill has been impring pretty well, I'm starting to utilize some Gungnir like combos with footstools lol and feel overall more polished. Last thing, I'd have organized the post better but typing on this gamepad is bad lol.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just thought i'd drop a post thanking A2 for some great games!

Seriously dude, you're so patient that it's crazy.

I'd be more than happy to play other people to help placements, using my placement as an average.

 

[Z1GMA]

Best Wiff Punishing: @ A2ZOMG

 

[A2ZOMG]

Best Wiff Punishing: @ A2ZOMG

Pray tell, what makes you say this?

 

[Z1GMA]

Pray tell, what makes you say this?

Hmm, you're probably not the best Wiff Punisher, but definitely one of the best.
Smartest Wiff Punisher, though.
You're good at reading your opponent's spaced attacks and strike, like how you hit the toe of my Dtilts with your Fair.

 

[Garioshi]

I'd like to go on the tier list now. Feeling a definite B tier.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Most aggressive/ defensive dorf?
Most reckless edgeguarder?
Dorf's to watch?

The people NEED to know! xD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmm, you're probably not the best Wiff Punisher, but definitely one of the best.
Smartest Wiff Punisher, though.
You're good at reading your opponent's spaced attacks and strike, like how you hit the toe of my Dtilts with your Fair.

I guess I'm also kinda hilarious with F-smash as well.

Honestly I don't even consider it much of a skill. I just have a weird way of assessing risk/reward based on my distance from my opponent. I'm not afraid to throw out certain moves at certain distances especially if they're pretty significantly rewarding. I don't always put a lot of thought into whiff punishes the way you describe it. Even though I'm a pretty conservative player, I simultaneously just see a lot of value in going for hard reads to establish psychological ground. Ganon F-smash is honestly one of the most hilarious moves in the game when you think about all of its good qualities.

 

[adom4]

I guess I'm also kinda hilarious with F-smash as well.

Honestly I don't even consider it much of a skill. I just have a weird way of assessing risk/reward based on my distance from my opponent. I'm not afraid to throw out certain moves at certain distances especially if they're pretty significantly rewarding. I don't always put a lot of thought into whiff punishes the way you describe it. Even though I'm a pretty conservative player, I simultaneously just see a lot of value in going for hard reads to establish psychological ground. Ganon F-smash is honestly one of the most hilarious moves in the game when you think about all of its good qualities.

Ganondorf's F-smash is awesome, it's surprisingly quick considering how strong it is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd like to go on the tier list now. Feeling a definite B tier.

While I only have word of mouth so far, what I've heard is plausible. If there's replays of you, or time to play me or some of the other upper ranked Ganons, that would be good too.

Most aggressive/ defensive dorf?
Most reckless edgeguarder?
Dorf's to watch?

The people NEED to know! xD

Atm I think the most aggressive is someone like Opana or Papaya. But that's up for debate.

Reckless edgeguards? Gungnir and Ray_Kalm honestly do some pretty unbelievable stuff in that department.

As for Dorf's to watch, I'm not sure what you mean? I think Potechi has great streams and he's a very well-balanced Ganon main to watch. Papaya probably over time will be one of the biggest threats to look out for given he seems to have no issues with anything tech-skill related. When Vermanubis gets footage of himself he's generally one of the better Ganons to watch as well if you're trying to learn good spacing (even Gungnir says he would watch and emulate Verm's spacing).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Added @ Radical Larry because we played some games.

Good games, had a lot of fun trying customs and different stages. I think you get a little predictable with your defensive options and you don't edgeguard me nearly as aggressively as you should. You also should mix in regular grabs more when approaching as you rely a little too much on Flame Choke to get in sometimes. Other than that you play Ganon decently.

 

[Radical Larry]

Added @ Radical Larry because we played some games.

Good games, had a lot of fun trying customs and different stages. I think you get a little predictable with your defensive options and you don't edgeguard me nearly as aggressively as you should. You also should mix in regular grabs more when approaching as you rely a little too much on Flame Choke to get in sometimes. Other than that you play Ganon decently.

I know I need to improve those things. It's that habitual thing I got from For Glory.
Hope you didn't mind my creepy voice whenever I talked...if you heard me of course.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know I need to improve those things. It's that habitual thing I got from For Glory.
Hope you didn't mind my creepy voice whenever I talked...if you heard me of course.

Honestly I didn't hear you at all and I kept voice chat off because there was other stuff happening in my house at the time.

I don't think For Glory is necessarily bad for practice even if it's not the same as playing offline. It just depends on what your goals are, and recognizing what wifi tactics to avoid to focus on fundamentals.

 

[Sykkamorre]

While I only have word of mouth so far, what I've heard is plausible. If there's replays of you, or time to play me or some of the other upper ranked Ganons, that would be good too.

Atm I think the most aggressive is someone like Opana or Papaya. But that's up for debate.

Reckless edgeguards? Gungnir and Ray_Kalm honestly do some pretty unbelievable stuff in that department.

As for Dorf's to watch, I'm not sure what you mean? I think Potechi has great streams and he's a very well-balanced Ganon main to watch. Papaya probably over time will be one of the biggest threats to look out for given he seems to have no issues with anything tech-skill related. When Vermanubis gets footage of himself he's generally one of the better Ganons to watch as well if you're trying to learn good spacing (even Gungnir says he would watch and emulate Verm's spacing).

By dorf's to watch, I meant up and coming warriors of darkness xD

 

[Garioshi]

As fate would have it, my Gamepad charger broke and I have no Gamecube adaptor. Stuck with 3DS only for a while.