Social Hideout of the Phantom Thieves - Joker Social

[C-G]

I just have to note something, there has never been a third party character that did not have some sort of gimmick. Sonic has his speed, Snake has his variety of bombs(The sticky alone gets him on here), Mega Man has his variety of projectiles(Including his charge shot for F smash), Pac Man has his fruits and such, Ryu and Ken have the imputs and opponent facing, Cloud has limit, Bayo is Bayo and the Belmonts have been discussed more than enough.

Sonic and Snake aren't gimmicky though. Sonic especially not.

 

[Teeb147]

Sonic and Snake aren't gimmicky though. Sonic especially not.

He's just gotta go fast.
He's got the same weakness as some other fast characters, harder to ko with him.

 

[Roguewolf]

I still don't think Belmonts are either there just zoners.

 

[EarlTamm]

Sonic and Snake aren't gimmicky though. Sonic especially not.

I would say his speed puts him into a specific playstyle, though I wil admit he is the least applicable. Snake not so much. Snake has his grenades which he has to time, the sticky he has to strategically place and he used to have the land mine which has now been given to Isabelle. And let us not forget he is not exempt from his explosives, putting him in the similar circumstance to other pro and con gimmicks.

 

[Teeb147]

I still don't think Belmonts are either there just zoners.

Best Zoners in the game, at least.

I would say his speed puts him into a specific playstyle, though I wil admit he is the least applicable. Snake not so much. Snake has his grenades which he has to time, the sticky he has to strategically place and he used to have the land mine which has now been given to Isabelle. And let us not forget he is not exempt from his explosives, putting him in the similar circumstance to other pro and con gimmicks.

Just being able to use grenades almost like a safe counter really changes how to face the character. I dunno if I'd consider him gimmicky, but at the very least it's the most tactical character, and you have to be tactical when facing him, which itself changes the battle quite a lot :/
He's slow besides that, including his recovery.

 

[EarlTamm]

He's slow besides that, including his recovery.

He is a heavy despite his size.

 

[Teeb147]

He is a heavy despite his size.

Which is another strength. Smaller hurtboxes than other heavies.

Joker's going to be a light faster character, but other than that the playstyle could range in some many directions.

 

[C-G]

I would say his speed puts him into a specific playstyle, though I wil admit he is the least applicable. Snake not so much. Snake has his grenades which he has to time, the sticky he has to strategically place and he used to have the land mine which has now been given to Isabelle. And let us not forget he is not exempt from his explosives, putting him in the similar circumstance to other pro and con gimmicks.

Nothing you listed is unique to Snake though. The only difference between Nades and Link bombs is the timer, and plenty of items do the same thing. Detonating C4 is akin to Link bombs. And self-destructive moves are everywhere (and not exclusively on Pichu)

 

[amageish]

Well, this has been a lively board today...

SP could just be a way of balancing out the Persona if they are very strong. If the can pull off some pretty wide or powerful attacks with your Personas, naturally you would want to balance it in a way to stop people from spamming. That's why the break mechanic is a thing in the Arena games, right?

Yeah, that's why it's a thing in Arena. They also balance it so different personas have different cards/units, so you can get away with being more spammy with some. More units makes it harder to break their persona, while also making it take longer for it to come back once broken. I definitely think they'll use some sort of unique mechanic to ensure the personas aren't too overpowered, though ideally it will be more unique then repeating Robin or Inkling.

Also, yeah, everyone has their own definition of what is "too gimmicky" for them. I'd probably use a weirder definition and say: If Smash Ultimate had to give you extra information on the UI next to your portrait, then you have a gimmick. Otherwise you just have an especially unique move.

 

[EarlTamm]

Nothing you listed is unique to Snake though. The only difference between Nades and Link bombs is the timer, and plenty of items do the same thing. Detonating C4 is akin to Link bombs. And self-destructive moves are everywhere (and not exclusively on Pichu)

Snake did the remote detonating bombs first and Snake's sticky can stick to both people and other materials while Links is still like his old bombs physically. Items are also not a factor when discussing just the characters themselves. Competitive and all, you know?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

It makes sense for Snake to be the least gimmicky third-party, since he is the first one, after all. Had to pick someone that would be easy to work with (friendship with Kojima aside).

Meanwhile, Palu had her gimmick taken out, although in fairness custom moves are more suitable for the Mii Fighters anyway.

 

[EarlTamm]

Also, yeah, everyone has their own definition of what is "too gimmicky" for them. I'd probably use a weirder definition and say: If Smash Ultimate had to give you extra information on the UI next to your portrait, then you have a gimmick. Otherwise you just have an especially unique move.

Yeah, I think this is the reason there has been so much discussion on this topic. Different perspectives and all.

 

[C-G]

Snake did the remote detonating bombs first and Snake's sticky can stick to both people and other materials while Links is still like his old bombs physically. Items are also not a factor when discussing just the characters themselves. Competitive and all, you know?

To me, a gimmick should be something the added in SPECIFICALLY for the character that only APPLIES to the character.
Everything involved with Snake's explosives can be found elsewhere in the game, so no, not a gimmick.

But I'm done with this convo. We're getting further and further off topic and it can only spiral from here.

 

[osby]

It makes sense for Snake to be the least gimmicky third-party, since he is the first one, after all. Had to pick someone that would be easy to work with (friendship with Kojima aside).

Meanwhile, Palu had her gimmick taken out, although in fairness custom moves are more suitable for the Mii Fighters anyway.

Palutena never really had a gimmick, unless you count her long smashes and shield attacks.

And Snake is at least "gimmicky" as PAC-MAN.

 

[Teeb147]

Eventually, in like 50 years, there'll be so many smash characters that none will be unique, so there'll be no gimmicks

 

[EarlTamm]

To me, a gimmick should be something the added in SPECIFICALLY for the character that only APPLIES to the character.
Everything involved with Snake's explosives can be found elsewhere in the game, so no, not a gimmick.

But I'm done with this convo. We're getting further and further off topic and it can only spiral from here.

I would say we are still on topic with the current discussion of the thread. Frankly, we have gotten nore off topic than this. I don't see how something can be a gimmick in one game and not in the next, and having said thing not naturally attached to the characters changes the dynamic very much.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

>person overreacting over a natural course of the conversation in the Joker thread
God-****ing-dammit, not again, we've just been through this.

There's only one thread outside of here I've seen making a fuss about being off-topic, is it really that much of a big deal right now when we don't have any news?

And no one ever called out the general for turning into the Pokémon thread at least a quarter of the time.

Palutena never really had a gimmick, unless you count her long smashes and shield attacks.

And Snake is at least "gimmicky" as PAC-MAN.

Just about. The fruit/items is about the only thing that's particular about Pac, although you can aim his side B, I suppose.

 

[Teeb147]

Just about. The fruit/items is about the only thing that's particular about Pac, although you can aim his side B, I suppose.

The Fire hydren is by far the weirdest item. It's like a turret but it pushes people. It's also really good to throw downwards at people.
The items charge/change weird, but i dont find them to be that weird. To me pac man is just a weird item user
But again, my criteria for 'gimmick' might be higher than some.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter too much. Basically some of us would rather that joker not be too weird or have a strong strength with a big weakness. That's basically what it boils down to

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I just want to have Joker feel like playing a JoJo character in Smash, is all. Having Arsene hang around in the background ala could be a compromise.

 

[Teeb147]

I just want to have Joker feel like playing a JoJo character in Smash, is all. Having Arsene hang around in the background ala could be a compromise.

Nothing wrong with a strong fast character
Why would Arsene be in the background? :O
It'll probably just come out for some skills (and possibly shielding)

 

[C-G]

>person overreacting over a natural course of the conversation in the Joker thread
God-****ing-dammit, not again, we've just been through this.

There's only one thread outside of here I've seen making a fuss about being off-topic, is it really that much of a big deal right now when we don't have any news?

Not overreacting or being mad. Just being blunt. At some point you just gotta cut your losses and move on from an argument or you become disruptive. And being off-topic is a faux pas on any forum board. Even if people are chill, still better to be considerate of others and talk about the thing everyone came to talk about.

 

[EarlTamm]

Anyway, it doesn't really matter too much. Basically some of us would rather that joker not be too weird or have a strong strength with a big weakness. That's basically what it boils down to

Pretty much. That sort of thing can be weird to balance when making a move set or conept trying to balance gameplay, uniqueness and Persona 5 representation all at the same time.

 

[Teeb147]

Pretty much. That sort of thing can be weird to balance when making a move set or conept trying to balance gameplay, uniqueness and Persona 5 representation all at the same time.

I'm not worried

Not overreacting or being mad. Just being blunt. At some point you just gotta cut your losses and move on from an argument or you become disruptive. And being off-topic is a faux pas on any forum board. Even if people are chill, still better to be considerate of others and talk about the thing everyone came to talk about.

That would be true normally. But usually people here can handle like up to 10 conversations at at time. If some people want to continue on a subject, nothing lost. You can start a new subject and that'll get more things moving in another direction if you feel that way

 

[amageish]

I just want to have Joker feel like playing a JoJo character in Smash, is all. Having Arsene hang around in the background ala could be a compromise.

I, uh, would like Joker to feel like playing a Persona character in Smash?

And I don't see how that is a compromise? The debates hasn't been "Should Joker use personas at all," but "Should there be a unique mechanic to balance the personas" and "Would using personas count as a gimmick."

 

[C-G]

I like the idea that Joker's moveset involves quick dagger strikes and his Persona attacks be big huge deals. Kinda like Madame Butterfly and Bayo, but have actually good frame data and angles.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You know, if threads got called out every time they didn't talk about the characters in question, it wouldn't be fun anymore.

I, uh, would like Joker to feel like playing a Persona character in Smash?

And I don't see how that is a compromise? The debates hasn't been "Should Joker use personas at all," but "Should there be a unique mechanic to balance the personas" and "Would using personas count as a gimmick."

I meant that Personas are kinda like Stands. Oh never mind, I was just thinking about how Arsene would appear in the stage...Ignore my stupid thing of the day...Why can't I spend a single day without that kind of thing happening, seriously.

 

[Teeb147]

I like the idea that Joker's moveset involves quick dagger strikes and his Persona attacks be big huge deals. Kinda like Madame Butterfly and Bayo, but have actually good frame data and angles.

I do hope on fast frame data, and dagger attacks have potential. Especially for normal attacks and aerial ones. (maybe except a few).
Of course, there'll probably be some kicks too, like other characters.
And i could easily see some personas coming out for smash attacks and the skills.

 

[C-G]

You know, if threads got called out every time they didn't talk about the characters in question, it wouldn't be fun anymore.



I meant that Personas are kinda like Stands. Oh never mind, I was just thinking about how Arsene would appear in the stage...Ignore my stupid thing of the day...Why can't I spend a single day without that kind of thing happening, seriously.

I mean, the opposite holds true as well. If two people are having a pages long argument over something not even related to the thread, everyone else gets annoyed.

My thinking is Arsene would partially manifest and overlap Joker with the moves. Kinda like Yuna in Dissidia where only half of the summons, the parts that are attacking, are coming out to play.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I mean, the opposite holds true as well. If two people are having a pages long argument over something not even related to the thread, everyone else gets annoyed.

My thinking is Arsene would partially manifest and overlap Joker with the moves. Kinda like Yuna in Dissidia where only half of the summons, the parts that are attacking, are coming out to play.

In that case, can you please cite me an example of when this kind of thing happened in a thread? I'm honestly curious, because I don't remember seeing that occur. It may help put perspective on things.

Oh, so, kinda like Bayonetta's normal attacks summoning giant limbs then? Another thing in common with her.

 

[Teeb147]

I mean, the opposite holds true as well. If two people are having a pages long argument over something not even related to the thread, everyone else gets annoyed.

I've seen plenty of that. You just kind of learn to ignore it. Unless it really does bother people, then it can be worth mentioning (or bringing in a mod in the worst case). But some people dont mind the distractions if there's little to talk about. (and impatient about news)
-Of course, it depends on the people, and the thread.

Even talking or arguing about this and keeping it going is more off-topic than talking about smash moves . Sometimes you feel like something is important enough to talk about. Sometimes there's nothing better to do, lol. I would say this site is much more freer than it is 'clean'. And i kinda like that. (still no flaming alllowed tho, which can be a good rule) But, nothing wrong with saying that something has gone on long if it's bothering people (if it is).

My thinking is Arsene would partially manifest and overlap Joker with the moves. Kinda like Yuna in Dissidia where only half of the summons, the parts that are attacking, are coming out to play.

I think that too. like some of Arsene might be faded a bit. Not sure about the overlapping part tho.

 

[amageish]

I meant that Personas are kinda like Stands. Oh never mind, I was just thinking about how Arsene would appear in the stage...Ignore my stupid thing of the day...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I think I figured out what you meant now. Like, when you summon a persona, the magic comes out of where Joker is, but the persona appears at the back of the stage temporarily? Definitely possible, I suppose. I feel like it'd be more likely for them to borrow from Arena, but that's a unique idea nonetheless!

Oh, so, kinda like Bayonetta's normal attacks summoning giant limbs then? Another thing in common with her.

Here's, uh, hoping he doesn't have the game-breaking strength in common with her too?

 

[C-G]

In that case, can you please cite me an example of when this kind of thing happened in a thread? I'm honestly curious, because I don't remember seeing that occur. It may help put perspective on things.

It happened a lot in the old Shoryuken.com site which I came from, and in the Heroclix forum I peruse. If you want specific examples, a content creator named dialupsucky for the DBFZ thread there was upset his videos were not being as promoted as another content creator. Someone named King_Of_Penguins mentioned he was being too angry about it.

The fallout of this conversation lasted for 5 days.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I think I figured out what you meant now. Like, when you summon a persona, the magic comes out of where Joker is, but the persona appears at the back of the stage temporarily? Definitely possible, I suppose. I feel like it'd be more likely for them to borrow from Arena, but that's a unique idea nonetheless!



Here's, uh, hoping he doesn't have the game-breaking strength in common with her too?

He he thanks.

But yeah, I'm certainly concerned as to whether he won't end up being a "pay-to-win" character. Maybe the mistakes of 4 will be enough to teach the current staff to try and avoid that kind of thing to happen again. Then again the latest new players have a hard time even telling what is or isn't a broken character.

It happened a lot in the old Shoryuken.com site which I came from, and in the Heroclix forum I peruse. If you want specific examples, a content creator named dialupsucky for the DBFZ thread there was upset his videos were not being as promoted as another content creator. Someone named King_Of_Penguins mentioned he was being too angry about it.

The fallout of this conversation lasted for 5 days.

Oh, so that's what this is about. I think the severity in which rules are applied depend on the board. Not sure if what he did was advertising, but if so that honestly is a different kettle of fish, since ads are frowned upon more.

If it is two people that are outright being hostile, then yes it's intrusive. Otherwise, not too much to be concerned about unless one of the parties feels that it's getting too silly and moves on to something else/closes the thread.

 

[Teeb147]

It happened a lot in the old Shoryuken.com site which I came from, and in the Heroclix forum I peruse. If you want specific examples, a content creator named dialupsucky for the DBFZ thread there was upset his videos were not being as promoted as another content creator. Someone named King_Of_Penguins mentioned he was being too angry about it.

The fallout of this conversation lasted for 5 days.

I think KirbyWorshipper2465 meant an example in this thread, but yeah if something like that would go longer than even 1 day and it bothered others and people mentioned it and nothing was done, that'd be a case to bring in a mod to break things up i think.

 

[amageish]

He he thanks.

But yeah, I'm certainly concerned as to whether he won't end up being a "pay-to-win" character. Maybe the mistakes of 4 will be enough to teach the current staff to try and avoid that kind of thing to happen again. Then again the latest new players have a hard time even telling what is or isn't a broken character.

Yeah, sorry about that... I was confused; my bad.

I hope the fact they have a dedicated game-balance team looking at online win-rates means that another Bayonetta won't happen - or at least that she'd be nerfed ASAP. I'm sure someone somewhere will think Joker is too overpowered no matter what though.

 

[EarlTamm]

He he thanks.

But yeah, I'm certainly concerned as to whether he won't end up being a "pay-to-win" character. Maybe the mistakes of 4 will be enough to teach the current staff to try and avoid that kind of thing to happen again. Then again the latest new players have a hard time even telling what is or isn't a broken character.



Oh, so that's what this is about. I think the severity in which rules are applied depend on the board. Not sure if what he did was advertising, but if so that honestly is a different kettle of fish, since ads are frowned upon more.

The balance on this game has been great so far, so I am not too worried.

 

[Teeb147]

Yeah, sorry about that... I was confused; my bad.

I hope the fact they have a dedicated game-balance team looking at online win-rates means that another Bayonetta won't happen - or at least that she'd be nerfed ASAP. I'm sure someone somewhere will think Joker is too overpowered no matter what though.

The balance on this game has been great so far, so I am not too worried.

It's really much better than smash 4, for a lot of reasons. The only thing is i find piranha plant kinda underwhelming. Like, not strong enough to warrant the landing lag, and nothing is busted. neutra-b is pretty alright, but not extraordinary considering the rest, i was expecting a better character considering the time they had to develop on it.

It might not count too much because it was a free dlc, but ill try to hope for decent balance patches as time goes on, when it happens that they couldn't gauge a character's balance overly well.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think KirbyWorshipper2465 meant an example in this thread, but yeah if something like that would go longer than even 1 day and it bothered others and people mentioned it and nothing was done, that'd be a case to bring in a mod to break things up i think.

Character or otherwise general threads in general on this board, rather. Many off-topic cases I've seen have been civil, or done in jest.

The biggest thing that annoys people here in the board are nudes, for obvious reasons. Come to think of it, the most controversial events usually happen on the Ultimate general thread.

Yeah, sorry about that... I was confused; my bad.

I hope the fact they have a dedicated game-balance team looking at online win-rates means that another Bayonetta won't happen - or at least that she'd be nerfed ASAP. I'm sure someone somewhere will think Joker is too overpowered no matter what though.

S'all good man.

 

[EarlTamm]

It's really much better than smash 4, for a lot of reasons. The only thing is i find piranha plant kinda underwhelming. Like, not strong enough to warrant the landing lag, and nothing is busted. neutra-b is pretty alright, but nothing extraordinary considering the rest, i was expecting a better character considering the time they had to develop on it.

It might not count too much because it was a free dlc, but ill try to hope for decent balance patches as time goes on, when it happens that they couldn't gauge a character overly well.

I'm sure the Plant will sort of equalize as time goes on. Considering how massive the balance of this game is, new character might be a little bit weird on release. Nothing broken, just that they need a little time with the community.

 

[Sigran101]

There was an ova synopsis released not that long ago.

It is when it's in a place not expected(Melee attacks) and is literally called out as unique to the fighter and unusual to the rest of the cast by the creator himself.

Unique =/= gimmicky. A character can be unlike all the others and not have a gimmick. Only characters in smash I'd consider gimmicky are Robin, Shulk, Rosalina, and Smash 4 Palutena because of the custom moves. To a certain extent Inkling, but not as much. These characters all have extra things going on that others don't, be it extra gauges, extra moves, or other extra attributes they have to keep track of. That's what a gimmick is. Having long range on melee attacks or a counter that powers you up is just unique.

Edit: forgot about Ryu and Ken with their extra inputs.

Edit 2: You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise every character is gimmicky. Link has a shield that blocks projectiles. Is he a gimicky character? Mario is the only one with a move that turns his opponent around. Does that make him gimmicky?