If you're Ganon and land a 5-hit combo it's 0-Death, though! =D
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- Thread starter Kitamerby
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hichez50
Smash Lord
He can tech chase. But As lucario if you stay on the ground that long for him to do it you should get combo'd.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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phi1ny3
Not the Mama
They do against snake, D3, Bowser, and the spacies (sometimes).
RT
Smash Hero
I meant in the capacity that combos aren't nearly as useful because of low hitstun. You don't get a huge reward from the required effort and risk when say compared to Melee. But it's Brawl, so oh well...
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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He has a 0-54% on Link.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Oh goody. So people can stop spreading this myth now?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I always thought that his vertical grab wasn't abnormally "tall", but the posture really did affect how he grabbed.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
How does that even matter?
Lucario's grab sucks outright. Everyone needs to accept this and stop making **** up about it to make it seem like it doesn't.
Lucario's grab sucks outright. Everyone needs to accept this and stop making **** up about it to make it seem like it doesn't.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
It gives you good reward though for something "that sucks", even has okay cooldown (not exactly "unpunishable", but it isn't like falco dashgrab).
Even pivot grab has a decent range, and having a bad grab range doesn't always mean you have a bad grab game. Look at Pika and ICs (extreme concept, but you get my point, they have less grab range than Lucario).
Good point though Stauffy, Lucario's grab shouldn't be wholly relied on when punishing unless it's a character that overextends themself a lot or has a close range zoning game, otherwise it's more of a punish.
Even pivot grab has a decent range, and having a bad grab range doesn't always mean you have a bad grab game. Look at Pika and ICs (extreme concept, but you get my point, they have less grab range than Lucario).
Good point though Stauffy, Lucario's grab shouldn't be wholly relied on when punishing unless it's a character that overextends themself a lot or has a close range zoning game, otherwise it's more of a punish.
D. Disciple
Smash Master
His grab range sucks, but not his grab game.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
I won't get into pivot grab because I'm not as familiar with that, although I'd be pretty surprised if it turned out to have good range in comparison to the rest of the cast.
I said his grab sucks and it's a fact that it sucks. Talk all you want about his grab game in general, I just get annoyed that people say nonsense like "Oh, but it has great vertical range!" to try to make it seem otherwise.
I'm fairly certain Pikachu has more grab range by the way.
I said his grab sucks and it's a fact that it sucks. Talk all you want about his grab game in general, I just get annoyed that people say nonsense like "Oh, but it has great vertical range!" to try to make it seem otherwise.
I'm fairly certain Pikachu has more grab range by the way.
D. Disciple
Smash Master
I don't think anyone said that his grab range was good in the least lol. We just noticed that it seems we have a weird vertical grab range, cause judging by that vid, it doesn't make sense that I can grab snake when he's above my head.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I'll find the thread, but Pika's indeed has less grab range than ours.
Oh, and even if it were "grabbing with his ears", vertical grab range isn't always something exactly as useful as horizontal, especially considering that everyone you'd grab from that high also is pretty safe on block.
Edit: wait, nope nevermind, it was updated, and it's only his dash grab that's really bad.
Although I was correct that we have some of the faster grabs in the game.
Here's the link: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Grab
Oh, and even if it were "grabbing with his ears", vertical grab range isn't always something exactly as useful as horizontal, especially considering that everyone you'd grab from that high also is pretty safe on block.
Edit: wait, nope nevermind, it was updated, and it's only his dash grab that's really bad.
Although I was correct that we have some of the faster grabs in the game.
Here's the link: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Grab
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
The only one that stands out as relatively "fast" is dash grab. And be honest, how often are you going to be dash grabbing with Lucario?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Pivot grab isn't MK speed, but it's faster than most of the others.
Plus he doesn't have really terribad cooldown on them. Granted it shares the same weakness of most grabs when you miss, but it still is a bit faster on down time than others.
I'm not saying his grab's a godsend, but for the reward you get esp. in some MUs, there's a reason why it's not nonexistent.
Plus he doesn't have really terribad cooldown on them. Granted it shares the same weakness of most grabs when you miss, but it still is a bit faster on down time than others.
I'm not saying his grab's a godsend, but for the reward you get esp. in some MUs, there's a reason why it's not nonexistent.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
16 other characters have a pivot grab as fast or faster...... :/
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
19 don't if I counted correctly, 16 minus the really sucky tether ones.
Being average isn't bad.
This also doesn't take cooldown into consideration, of which most dashgrabs are really bad in.
Lucario still gotta grab.
Being average isn't bad.
This also doesn't take cooldown into consideration, of which most dashgrabs are really bad in.
Lucario still gotta grab.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Being average isn't bad. It's not good either. That is what average means, so don't say it's good (or "fast") when it's not.
He's still greatly hampered by the fact that he sucks at it.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Lucario's grabs overall are decently good. Need to take advantage of them. I think people need to stop looking at the flaws and look at the positives. There might be 16 who match ore do better in speed, but then just think about the rest of the cast which he does better in. He has a good solid grab over all.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
It's because you're so willing to ignore the flaws that you'd say something as ridiculous as "Lucario has a good solid grab."
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
It is fast, MK's dash grab is 40 frames of endlag iirc.
I'm saying that you're implying to me that because his grab is bad, it shouldn't be used.
I'm not saying it's good, but saying that the grab range of my first comment is irrelevant is a bit odd, considering I wasn't exactly saying it's the best, like I said, even if we did have the ability to "grab with our ears" hitbox wise, how useful is that? I'd say little to none.
I'm saying that you're implying to me that because his grab is bad, it shouldn't be used.
I'm not saying it's good, but saying that the grab range of my first comment is irrelevant is a bit odd, considering I wasn't exactly saying it's the best, like I said, even if we did have the ability to "grab with our ears" hitbox wise, how useful is that? I'd say little to none.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Which in what case, isn't true.
Also, I am not ignoring the flaws of it, but what I think you are doing is ignoring any benefits from it. Its a good solid grab. Not going to change that statement.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Calling it a good grab is as laughable as calling ZSS's grab a good grab.
I'd really like to hear what positive aspects of it even come close to outweighing that atrocious range. Please, tell me.
I'd really like to hear what positive aspects of it even come close to outweighing that atrocious range. Please, tell me.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Snake MU
10snakes
And no Stauffy, ZSS is on a whole other level of suckitude with grabbing.
Edit: This is getting a little off-topic, let's talk about moves that I think this gave light to, imo dsmash and dtilt in particular really surprised me.
This would explain how often I'd hit on the fringes with the bursts of dsmash and still get it.
10snakes
And no Stauffy, ZSS is on a whole other level of suckitude with grabbing.
Edit: This is getting a little off-topic, let's talk about moves that I think this gave light to, imo dsmash and dtilt in particular really surprised me.
This would explain how often I'd hit on the fringes with the bursts of dsmash and still get it.
Sorry for not getting a better video out, USPS-delivering-my-actual-capture-card-so-I-don't-have-to-use-DVD-recorder johns...
iRJi
Smash Champion
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^^ This.
Also, A frame 4 Throw that stays within the limit of the "10 frame reaction time"
A down-throw that sets up people in the air pretty high for potential baiting.
A Uthrow that goes up to a good damage output while you are at decent percents, and if the person is at a low percent also can lead to potential baiting.
A back-throw that does a good solid 10 damage and is not varied on Aura, the same goes for Dthrow.
Having all of this, while still having good solid frame data on each of the 3 sections of grabs (6, 8, 9) and having average cool down on each of them, is what makes it a solid grab. If its the grab range that makes it bad for you, play someone who has more. I dont like to **** on my character, and while doing that I admit his flaws. The way you go about Lucario overall that I have noticed is that there is always something wrong. If their is, why do you play him? I am sure their are other characters who are better, obviously. Metaknight, Diddy, Falco? Instead of complaining about something, work with it. It can only help you if it's apply-able to any type of playing.
Explained it enough?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
It's okay, I'm aware that Lucario's grab range is terribad.
But it's definitely not "unusable". It's definitely manageable with what sorts of stuff happens in this game, especially v. characters with large extending hurtboxes when they attack.
But it's definitely not "unusable". It's definitely manageable with what sorts of stuff happens in this game, especially v. characters with large extending hurtboxes when they attack.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Also, I don't want to come off mean if it feels like it. It is not my intention for I am a good loving person all around, and I am the last person who will troll anyone (As people may notice I am an Anti-troll). I just really believe that his grab is solid.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Whoops, I was inaccurate, MK's dash grab is about the same in cooldown as ours.
A better example of decent characters with some bad cooldown that use grabs are sheik, wario, fox, and ROB's dash grab.
A better example of decent characters with some bad cooldown that use grabs are sheik, wario, fox, and ROB's dash grab.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Did I say anything about Lucario's grab game? In fact, I think I specifically said I wasn't talking about Lucario's grab game in general.
No, it doesn't. I feel sorry for you if you think average grab speed and somewhat above average cooldown (by a frame or 2, doesn't exactly make it much harder to punish) makes up for having such poor range.
That's a real good way to make a case that it's a good grab.
I play the realist because people like you spread misinformation and act like his flaws aren't there. It's very misleading to people who don't know better, of which I'm sure there are quite a lot of on SWF.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
People don't put in flaws because if we were to, this game would consist of more MK mains. Our job is to look at what works.
Lucario's grab works and manages, even if it's trashy in range.
Comparing Lucario to ZSS is definitely NOT realistic. ZSS grabs can be counted on one hand for a set.
Lucario's grab won't be used as punishment for most things unfortunately in terms of characters with strong zoning patterns (like Marth).
Lucario's grab works and manages, even if it's trashy in range.
Comparing Lucario to ZSS is definitely NOT realistic. ZSS grabs can be counted on one hand for a set.
Lucario's grab won't be used as punishment for most things unfortunately in terms of characters with strong zoning patterns (like Marth).
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
If you want to ignore flaws, good for you. Have fun losing to everyone good who DOESN'T ignore them and exploits them.
Looking at what works is no more important than looking at what doesn't work. Sorry if I have to be the bad guy and point this out, but that's life.
Looking at what works is no more important than looking at what doesn't work. Sorry if I have to be the bad guy and point this out, but that's life.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Naw, I'm sure that people don't ignore flaws when they're common knowledge. Although it's all a matter of perspective.
If Lucario grabs still work and serve to the base, and if proven they still do that, I'm sure we don't have to go into how bad they are, if anything, a more productive plan is to tell how they shouldn't be used because of those attributes. For example, if a Marth were to go fair zoning properly, that would be where Lucario grab range could be problematic for ooS, that's where we (if we didn't know already) proclaim that Lucario's abysmal grab range "is not useful in said scenario", or for more generic cases as well.
If Lucario grabs still work and serve to the base, and if proven they still do that, I'm sure we don't have to go into how bad they are, if anything, a more productive plan is to tell how they shouldn't be used because of those attributes. For example, if a Marth were to go fair zoning properly, that would be where Lucario grab range could be problematic for ooS, that's where we (if we didn't know already) proclaim that Lucario's abysmal grab range "is not useful in said scenario", or for more generic cases as well.
Stauffy's gotta remember though, a grab is still a grab.
In all honesty, what I think this really shows us is just how freaking good it is to have a grab that leans inwards. In reality, the grab box for Force Palm is MUCH smaller than the standing/dash/pivot grab boxes. (2.5 and 3 compared to two 4-sized boxes), but because Lucario leans inwards so much, his grab range gets extended by a ****load, just like DDD or Marth.
BTW, I updated it so he turns blue on the invincibility frames on double team. I'll put a download soon.
In all honesty, what I think this really shows us is just how freaking good it is to have a grab that leans inwards. In reality, the grab box for Force Palm is MUCH smaller than the standing/dash/pivot grab boxes. (2.5 and 3 compared to two 4-sized boxes), but because Lucario leans inwards so much, his grab range gets extended by a ****load, just like DDD or Marth.
BTW, I updated it so he turns blue on the invincibility frames on double team. I'll put a download soon.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
I really wish people could just take what I say at face value and not look for hidden meanings I never said anything about. It's not that ****ing hard.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Oh yeah, so why is it that despite Lucario usmash having that behavior of clanking with everything on that certain frame, it isn't noted in the PSA?
It's probably noted in PSA, but it's probably either in the flags, or is a part of the game mechanics with bone/hitbubble interaction. I'll try to figure that out soon. I have a few theories, but I can't prove any of them yet.
Btw, on the status of wtf at the moment, here's something you may not know. I think Usmash... has wind. o.o
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
If only it were like M2's where it could suck up people into it, although I'm glad it's more of a one hit deal, especially in Brawl.