Heir to the Monado. Shulk General Discussion/Social Thread

[Scoliosis Jones]

Isaac is mainly a magic user. Shulk is a sword user. I don't see the similarities besides the hair.

What makes Shulk unique is what he can do with the Monado. He could almost be made to set traps. Stun the opponent with one attack, then get behind them to do extra damage. He could have the ability to break shields. The possibilities are endless.

I'm of the opinion that Isaac can co-exist with Shulk. However, i'm beginning to think that Assist Trophies are staying ATs. It's just a feeling I have. No proof involved. Just a feeling.

 

[jaytalks]

Isaac is mainly a magic user. Shulk is a sword user. I don't see the similarities besides the hair.

What makes Shulk unique is what he can do with the Monado. He could almost be made to set traps. Stun the opponent with one attack, then get behind them to do extra damage. He could have the ability to break shields. The possibilities are endless.

I'm of the opinion that Isaac can co-exist with Shulk. However, i'm beginning to think that Assist Trophies are staying ATs. It's just a feeling I have. No proof involved. Just a feeling.

I was just saying Shulk is by no means the most unique swords user. They could coexist and I would love to play as both of them, but I doubt that is the directions they will take.

On a side note, would Little Mac be staying an AT do you think?

No content is guaranteed for any of the currently unrepresented franchise in SSB4. Remember, Xenoblade was only published through the work of project rainfall (not nintendo), so the series lacking a stage or a characters would not be surprising.

 

[BluePikmin11]

However, i'm beginning to think that Assist Trophies are staying ATs. It's just a feeling I have. No proof involved. Just a feeling.

You never know though, the ATs might become more relevant and important, maybe even gaining something that could make them unique to move from AT to character.

Bleh, all of this Golden Sun vs. Xenoblade comparison. All I know is Golden Sun wasn't a very fun game for me, and this is a guy who has played and enjoyed some pretty obscure RPGs. I'm 99.99% sure there is going to be a Xenoblade stage on the Wii U game at the very least, which means Sakurai will be forced to decide what he wants to do with Shulk since he'll be looking at the series anyways.

Wel'll most likely get Gaur Plains as a stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Remember, Xenoblade was only published through the work of project rainfall (not nintendo), so the series lacking a stage or a characters would not be surprising.

Didn't Reggie say in a interview back in early-December that fans doesn't really have any influence on Nintendo's decisions ?

 

[FlareHabanero]

And I don't get why people don't understand that when making a prediction, it's not that big a deal. Basically, whenever we make a prediction on anywhere on this forum, its made either guessing what developer is going to do, or taking a shot in the dark. It's what everyone does when making a prediction; they just don't say it that way.

Everything I said is based what I think is going to happen. Of course, it's not real; it's a prediction. If a prediction is different than what you think, that's fine. What fun would be a forum be if everyone thought the same.

Using no basis whatsoever for speculation purposes is not a good idea, because the argument in question in unverified and as such is useless. If you want to use arguments, you got to back it up with proof in order to actually justify your claims. Saying empty words won't move anyone to reconsider, all it does is make you look arrogant.

 

[jaytalks]

Using no basis whatsoever for speculation purposes is not a good idea, because the argument in question in unverified and as such is useless. If you want to use arguments, you got to back it up with proof in order to actually justify your claims. Saying empty words won't move anyone to reconsider, all it does is make you look arrogant.

We've had this conversation multiple times, so I'll cut this short. When making a prediction, in the part where you actually predict stuff, you fill in the blanks. That's why everyone comes up with different predictions. Everyone tries to predict Sakurai's methodology; there are several threads all dedicated to this topic. I'm not being arrogant, I'm simply making a prediction. If you notice, I always say "I think" because I am the one that is making the predictions.

If you want evidence, just look at Sakurai's past actions. This is much decried on this forum (and stupidly I might add, because it's so selective in the process) but it's all right there. Every single first party series other than retros (which are inherently often not franchises, precisely making them retro) is a franchise. Of course things might change, but that applies to virtually everything, even right down to the words he has said in past interviews.

 

[N3ON]

Even though we got Pilotwings and Nintendogs stages and all... personally I very much doubt we'll be getting a Xenoblade stage unless we also get Shulk.

Using no basis whatsoever for speculation purposes is not a good idea, because the argument in question in unverified and as such is useless. If you want to use arguments, you got to back it up with proof in order to actually justify your claims. Saying empty words won't move anyone to reconsider, all it does is make you look arrogant.

So when one person predicts Lip, on very little basis and with very little argument (or at least very little good argument), that's met with the supportive "we can't pretend to know what's actually likely" defense from you.

And now apparently there needs to be proof to validate claims? Now apparently there needs to be a basis to predict a character? It doesn't go both ways. It can't be "we don't know what's likely so nothing can be dismissed" to "unverified and baseless claims are useless" and basically should be dismissed.


As far as the original point goes... "And Sakurai's methodology is that if he finds something interesting, he'll want the developers to include it."
We can't possibly know to what extent this is true. As far as precedent goes, apparently, Sakurai has found the biggest of Nintendo's series, with the biggest characters in those series are the most interesting. Apparently minor characters in a series don't interest Sakurai. Apparently minor series don't interest Sakurai as much as bigger series, with the exceptions of retros. Isn't it funny how that works out? It's almost like it's more than a coincidence.

Sakurai doesn't share his personal opinions on all the characters. Apparently... Sakurai finds adding clones more interesting than an original character.

What we do know is that Sakurai favours the inclusion of larger series. This is why Nintendo's comparatively larger, in terms of impact and reception, are the ones included. Does this mean he finds the other series less interesting? No, not necessarily. Though according to you, yes. It's not "imaginary criteria" to say the bigger series have been the ones that get playable representation, it's... it's blatant to see that's the case. Is it a rigid, obstinate, no-exceptions rule? No... but it's not "imaginary" just because Sakurai hasn't outright said it. If Sakurai finds Wonder Red more interesting than Little Mac, it doesn't mean he's going to include WR first.

You can't possibly be implying that Sakurai has found all the big series and their characters more personally interesting than all the small series and their characters, can you? Let alone think, if that was the case, that it would change now?

For someone who claims that proof is key for an argument, there's really not much proof (other than the retro category, which is its own thing) of Sakurai favouring a small series over a much larger one... due to pure interest. Hell, we know Sakurai was a FE fan, that would have his interest, right? Yet he didn't even attempt to include a FE character in the first Smash game, a game which wasn't even planned to release outside Japan.

I don't think Sakurai's bias is all you crack it up to be. We really shouldn't be looking at Sakurai's words when we have his actual actions to look at.

Didn't Reggie say in a interview back in early-December that fans doesn't really have any influence on Nintendo's decisions ?

Yeah but that was probably a lie. Nintendo's plan couldn't possibly have been wait for Europe to release it (conveniently after rainfall), basically use the European version, and release it in very limited copies at one retailer after nearly two years of giving no comment on a NA release. There's no way that was their plan all along. That would be a terrible plan.

Especially with XSEED publishing the other two.

However, Nintendo will continue to act like the fans didn't have any influence on the release, which doesn't really help Xenoblade or the other two as far as Smash goes.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Big series only count? Alright, then riddle me why the hell we don't have a lot more Pokemon characters, a lot more Mario characters, and a lot more Zelda characters? Why the hell do we have so many series that were under the radar? How come such a thing has never been expressed at all? Why should we really beg for more of something that already has a lot of exposure?

Also, don't be a hypocrite N3ON. You say only big name series get in, yet you support a character from a minor series of traditional RPGs?

 

[foolssigma]

I never like seeing these Shulk vs. Isaac debates. Like others have already stated, the inclusion of one does not negate the other. Based on the fan base of these characters, as well as my own opinion, the best case scenario would be Shulk and Isaac both being playable. I don't think we can speculate that all of the AT will be the same at this point. We may still have Starfy and a Nintendog, but the dog is a different breed. Skull Kid is new and that phantom in the Zelda pic may be an AT as well. Who knows if Little Mac will actually be playable? I would not be surprised if a new Golden Sun game appeared on 3ds at some point, so maybe Matthew will replace Isaac as an AT, if Isaac is playable. Looking at the current pool of characters to choose from, I think Nintendo has so much more to gain from including unrepresented games or in the case of Xenoblade, soon to be franchises. I'm biased but Isaac and Shulk should both be playable.

 

[N3ON]

Big series only count? Alright, then riddle me why the hell we don't have a lot more Pokemon characters, a lot more Mario characters, and a lot more Zelda characters? Why the hell do we have so many series that were under the radar? How come such a thing has never been expressed at all? Why should we really beg for more of something that already has a lot of exposure?

Did you honestly think that's what I meant? I meant of Nintendo's series, the biggest ones have been included, and Sakurai goes for the biggest of the remaining. Where did I say only the very top tier triple A series would make the cut?

Is the only reply you have to my whole post splitting hairs about (to use a SmashChu favourite) semantics? The series included are Nintendo's biggest, I didn't say they were limited to the upper echelon, but they are the biggest, you just have a different frame of reference than the one I was talking about. Of the series in Smash, yeah, Pokemon, Mario, Zelda, they are the biggest. Of Nintendo's whole stable of series, the ones in Smash, bar retros, are comparatively bigger or more impacting than the ones not in Smash.

And I didn't say we'd be limited to getting more characters from series already represented, I just said Sakurai goes for the bigger series. As Smash goes on the bar lowers, and new series that previously might not have merited inclusion do, but that doesn't mean a dip past bigger, more impacting and popular series for one from a comparatively smaller IP is overly likely. It's not impossible, because like I said, it's not some unmoving rule that Sakurai must seek out the biggest series, but it's... not something that can be based precedence.

Also, don't be a hypocrite N3ON. You say only big name series get in, yet you support a character from a minor series of traditional RPGs?

Well first off, I never said Isaac has superb chances. But more importantly, of the remaining series with characters Sakurai would likely deem feasible, Golden Sun, while not first on the list, as a series, is further ahead than most still unrepresented. Compared to what we already have, yeah, it's minor, but compared to what else is left... not so much. Ofc series like Punch-Out and Mii (and the new series already included) are still ahead of it... but it can be argued that that's about it. Around Brawl GS was close to on par with Pikmin, and yeah, since then it's faltered, it's not in that place anymore, but out of the selection of what's left it's not as obscure and niche as you seem to think.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I was just saying Shulk is by no means the most unique swords user. They could coexist and I would love to play as both of them, but I doubt that is the directions they will take.

On a side note, would Little Mac be staying an AT do you think?

No content is guaranteed for any of the currently unrepresented franchise in SSB4. Remember, Xenoblade was only published through the work of project rainfall (not nintendo), so the series lacking a stage or a characters would not be surprising.

Not sure what you mean here. Xenoblade would have been out in Japan and Europe regardless of the movement to have them localized. Not to mention, that point is irrelevant. The series WAS localized, and made quite the splash. Xenoblade has become quite the popular game. Sakurai may have taken note of this and may have looked into Shulk.

Why would Sakurai pick Shulk? Well let's see.

1) Sakurai is looking mostly for new series. He only saw Pikmin and Animal Crossing as deserving, and Animal Crossing (which continues to be a strong franchise) didn't even get a character until now.
2) It is clear to me that "X" is inspired by Xenoblade. Regardless of whether it is a sequel to Xenoblade or not, it is still inspired by it through gameplay. The reason this game was likely created and getting the treatment it currently is getting is because of Xenoblade's success since it was localized.
3) The Monado can do things that essentially no other sword can for Nintendo fighters. This is something that I do not believe can be denied. Isaac likely wouldn't be a sword user in Smash, so he can't compare. Takamaru could add a Japanese style, but I don't think that alone comes to how unique Shulk would be for sword users.

Shulk is a First Party Nintendo character. It's simple as that.

Big series only count? Alright, then riddle me why the hell we don't have a lot more Pokemon characters, a lot more Mario characters, and a lot more Zelda characters? Why the hell do we have so many series that were under the radar? How come such a thing has never been expressed at all? Why should we really beg for more of something that already has a lot of exposure?

Also, don't be a hypocrite N3ON. You say only big name series get in, yet you support a character from a minor series of traditional RPGs?

This. If you're going to say Shulk is a part of a small series and has no chance, what does that say for Isaac? Golden Sun is anything but a big series, and as such isn't in a much better boat than Shulk if it's a negative factor to have fewer games.

EDIT: Based on the fact that the new game "X" is as I said earlier somewhat of a sequel to Xenoblade, I think it can be deemed a major focus for Nintendo, as an attempt to create a new IP, something that they have lacked for several years.

Not to insult Isaac fans, but the fact of the matter is that he looked over Isaac and saw nothing more than an Assist Trophy from him for Brawl. While that could change for this upcoming game, nothing has really changed for Isaac. He wasn't the main protagonist of the latest Golden Sun game, and that game didn't do too hot, at least compared to the others. If anything, that just means that an already not so major series took a dip. Not a major dip, but a dip. It's quite possible that Sakurai will still pass over Isaac because nothing notable has really occurred for Golden Sun.

Compare this to Xenoblade. This game received massive support to be localized, and was a success story for Nintendo. Now, we're receiving a sequel of sorts to it with "X". It shows a future for it as a series.

 

[jaytalks]

Big series only count? Alright, then riddle me why the hell we don't have a lot more Pokemon characters, a lot more Mario characters, and a lot more Zelda characters? Why the hell do we have so many series that were under the radar? How come such a thing has never been expressed at all? Why should we really beg for more of something that already has a lot of exposure?

Also, don't be a hypocrite N3ON. You say only big name series get in, yet you support a character from a minor series of traditional RPGs?

It's obviously not purely proportional the amount of sales or size of the series in the game. But for the sake of argument, let's go down the list of all those series:
Zelda: the smallest of the three big series, has 5 characters in brawl: Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Pretty good number of characters for a franchise in which most entry sells more than 3 million roughly but never really exceeds 7 million.

Pokemon: it's core series outsells Mario, but Mario has more periphery series that sell extremely well (Mario Kart being Nintendo's biggest series, probably). It has 6 characters in Brawl: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Charizard, Squirtle, Ivysaur.

Mario: The largest Nintendo series by far, with some of the biggest franchises contained in the series and its spinoffs. Mario is a bit tricky, because it would easy to say 4, but if you consider that Mario Kart is one of the series' biggest games, you'll remember which characters also appear in that game. You have the Mario and Bowser inclusion, but then you also have the Wario, Yoshi, and DK (and Diddy) in the game. Mario is such a big series that it has three spin-off series of great success. If you really want to be a stickler, the Mario Series is a spin-off from the Donkey Kong series, but those game did feature Mario as its original protagonist, so that's really not important. So if we take all the Mario Spinoff series into account, how many characters in the Mario Universe are in Smash:
Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Wario. That's 8 characters from the Mario Universe. (Rosalina makes 9 providing the high probability of no cuts.

So yeah, they do get more characters than every other series. For comparison, the next closest series is Star Fox, which only has 3 reps (two of which are semi clones). After that, each series gets either two or 1 characters.

And there is a difference between stating a fact about which series in Smash get included based on past evidence, and the characters you support. I wasn't trying to turn this into an Isaac vs Shulk thing (especially with no mention of Matthew). I was originally just pointing out that Shulk is by no means the most unique among possible sword users. Or at the very least, that's up for debate. That's all.

But it's important to note that your predictions... wait for it.... can differ from the characters you support. That should be self explanatory. If we could only support the characters we believe have high chances, there would, at best, be like 20 threads.

Not sure what you mean here. Xenoblade would have been out in Japan and Europe regardless of the movement to have them localized. Not to mention, that point is irrelevant. The series WAS localized, and made quite the splash. Xenoblade has become quite the popular game. Sakurai may have taken note of this and may have looked into Shulk.

Why would Sakurai pick Shulk? Well let's see.

1) Sakurai is looking mostly for new series. He only saw Pikmin and Animal Crossing as deserving, and Animal Crossing (which continues to be a strong franchise) didn't even get a character until now.
2) It is clear to me that "X" is inspired by Xenoblade. Regardless of whether it is a sequel to Xenoblade or not, it is still inspired by it through gameplay. The reason this game was likely created and getting the treatment it currently is getting is because of Xenoblade's success since it was localized.
3) The Monado can do things that essentially no other sword can for Nintendo fighters. This is something that I do not believe can be denied. Isaac likely wouldn't be a sword user in Smash, so he can't compare. Takamaru could add a Japanese style, but I don't think that alone comes to how unique Shulk would be for sword users.

Shulk is a First Party Nintendo character. It's simple as that.

This. If you're going to say Shulk is a part of a small series and has no chance, what does that say for Isaac? Golden Sun is anything but a big series, and as such isn't in a much better boat than Shulk if it's a negative factor to have fewer games.

North America is the biggest market by far, and Sakurai has mentioned in the past that he doesn't like including Japanese characters, indicating his hesitance towards characters without a wide release. He has of course made exceptions (Lucas, Marth, and Roy), but these are the exceptions not the rule. Xenoblade's critical success I doubt influences Sakurai too much. Other series have had a great critical success and not been included (Golden Sun being a great example). The series not being localized in North America by Nintendo definitely hurts its cause, but it by no means makes Shulk impossible.

1) Animal Crossing is not a new series. It's been around since the N64. And again, Xenoblade, as it stands, is not a series. It's a game.
2) That's a whole lot conjecture. I have said I think X is connected to Xenoblade in cannon, but I'm just going off what has been announced. I am not going to assume X is getting a particular treatment for any reason. Awakening got great coverage as opposed to other entries of the FE series, but it has little to do with the success of FE10, FE11, or FE12.
3) I don't see how you get that Isaac wouldn't be a sword user in Smash, it's his main weapon in the series. In a lot of old school rpgs, having a sword and magic is practically the norm (final fantasy, chrono trigger, dragon quest). So just because he and Robin also have magic doesn't mean they arent sword users. Sword users usually arent purely sword users. Part of what makes Link and Pit unique is there additional items, so it's the same for every other sword user.
Now if you are talking about who has the most unique sword, yeah, Shulk wins I guess. But the mechanics between the games (and other sword users) are very different. Shulk has one sword he uses throughout the entire game, while Isaac repeatedly upgrades his sword (in typical RPG fashion). So that's a comparison that really makes no sense.

I never said Shulk has no chance. Never once. So let's put that to rest. Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's largest unrepresented series. It's only dwarfed by Rhythm Heaven and the Wars series. But I have no intention to continue this GS vs Xenoblade conversation. It's a kind of dumb. I like each of the games very much, and there are plenty of other fans who feel the same way.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Isaac's main focus of being unique is his magic. That is where he is different from Shulk. That's what Isaac's assist trophy was based on, and I think it's fair to say that would work better in Isaac's favor to differentiate him from the rest of the roster.

It's obviously not purely proportional the amount of sales or size of the series in the game. But for the sake of argument, let's go down the list of all those series:
Zelda: the smallest of the three big series, has 5 characters in brawl: Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Pretty good number of characters for a franchise in which most entry sells more than 3 million roughly but never really exceeds 7 million.

Pokemon: it's core series outsells Mario, but Mario has more periphery series that sell extremely well (Mario Kart being Nintendo's biggest series, probably). It has 6 characters in Brawl: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Charizard, Squirtle, Ivysaur.

Mario: The largest Nintendo series by far, with some of the biggest franchises contained in the series and its spinoffs. Mario is a bit tricky, because it would easy to say 4, but if you consider that Mario Kart is one of the series' biggest games, you'll remember which characters also appear in that game. You have the Mario and Bowser inclusion, but then you also have the Wario, Yoshi, and DK (and Diddy) in the game. Mario is such a big series that it has three spin-off series of great success. If you really want to be a stickler, the Mario Series is a spin-off from the Donkey Kong series, but those game did feature Mario as its original protagonist, so that's really not important. So if we take all the Mario Spinoff series into account, how many characters in the Mario Universe are in Smash:
Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Wario. That's 8 characters from the Mario Universe. (Rosalina makes 9 providing the high probability of no cuts.

So yeah, they do get more characters than every other series. For comparison, the next closest series is Star Fox, which only has 3 reps (two of which are semi clones). After that, each series gets either two or 1 characters.

And there is a difference between stating a fact about which series in Smash get included based on past evidence, and the characters you support. I wasn't trying to turn this into an Isaac vs Shulk thing (especially with no mention of Matthew). I was originally just pointing out that Shulk is by no means the most unique among possible sword users. Or at the very least, that's up for debate. That's all.

But it's important to note that your predictions... wait for it.... can differ from the characters you support. That should be self explanatory. If we could only support the characters we believe have high chances, there would, at best, be like 20 threads.


North America is the biggest market by far, and Sakurai has mentioned in the past that he doesn't like including Japanese characters, indicating his hesitance towards characters without a wide release. He has of course made exceptions (Lucas, Marth, and Roy), but these are the exceptions not the rule. Xenoblade's critical success I doubt influences Sakurai too much. Other series have had a great critical success and not been included (Golden Sun being a great example). The series not being localized in North America by Nintendo definitely hurts its cause, but it by no means makes Shulk impossible.

1) Animal Crossing is not a new series. It's been around since the N64. And again, Xenoblade, as it stands, is not a series. It's a game.
2) That's a whole lot conjecture. I have said I think X is connected to Xenoblade in cannon, but I'm just going off what has been announced. I am not going to assume X is getting a particular treatment for any reason. Awakening got great coverage as opposed to other entries of the FE series, but it has little to do with the success of FE10, FE11, or FE12.
3) I don't see how you get that Isaac wouldn't be a sword user in Smash, it's his main weapon in the series. In a lot of old school rpgs, having a sword and magic is practically the norm (final fantasy, chrono trigger, dragon quest). So just because he and Robin also have magic doesn't mean they arent sword users. Sword users usually arent purely sword users. Part of what makes Link and Pit unique is there additional items, so it's the same for every other sword user.
Now if you are talking about who has the most unique sword, yeah, Shulk wins I guess. But the mechanics between the games (and other sword users) are very different. Shulk has one sword he uses throughout the entire game, while Isaac repeatedly upgrades his sword (in typical RPG fashion). So that's a comparison that really makes no sense.

I never said Shulk has no chance. Never once. So let's put that to rest. Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's largest unrepresented series. It's only dwarfed by Rhythm Heaven and the Wars series. But I have no intention to continue this GS vs Xenoblade conversation. It's a kind of dumb. I like each of the games very much, and there are plenty of other fans who feel the same way.

A few things on this post.

1) If Xenoblade was brought to the US, then the point of Sakurai avoiding Japan only games is irrelevant
2) Animal Crossing was a new series in context to inclusion to Smash Bros. It was previously unrepresented, and as it goes without saying, Xenoblade is in the same boat. Out of the new series prior to Brawl, there were several series that were overlooked, including Golden Sun. (really I just keep bringing up Isaac vs. Shulk because a lot of Isaac supporters bash Shulk in favor of Isaac, not saying you do, but I see it frequently elsewhere)
3) When I referred to "X" as a sequel to Xenoblade, I am only assuming this based on the fact that the base gameplay appears to be near identical. I also believe it has something to do with Xenblade's success, simply based on the circumstances. All three Rainfall games came to NA, and all three did decently well. Except we haven't seen Pandora's Tower or The Last Story get some sort of sequel or spiritual successor. But Xenoblade did. That has to speak for something when considering the game's importance to the Wii era.

I myself am an advocate for both Isaac and Shulk to be included. I think if Isaac was included, he would be more magic based, while Shulk would be more based on his swordplay, meaning that both of them would be unique from the cast and one another.

 

[jaytalks]

Isaac's main focus of being unique is his magic. That is where he is different from Shulk. That's what Isaac's assist trophy was based on, and I think it's fair to say that would work better in Isaac's favor to differentiate him from the rest of the roster.


A few things on this post.

1) If Xenoblade was brought to the US, then the point of Sakurai avoiding Japan only games is irrelevant
2) Animal Crossing was a new series in context to inclusion to Smash Bros. It was previously unrepresented, and as it goes without saying, Xenoblade is in the same boat. Out of the new series prior to Brawl, there were several series that were overlooked, including Golden Sun. (really I just keep bringing up Isaac vs. Shulk because a lot of Isaac supporters bash Shulk in favor of Isaac, not saying you do, but I see it frequently elsewhere)
3) When I referred to "X" as a sequel to Xenoblade, I am only assuming this based on the fact that the base gameplay appears to be near identical. I also believe it has something to do with Xenblade's success, simply based on the circumstances. All three Rainfall games came to NA, and all three did decently well. Except we haven't seen Pandora's Tower or The Last Story get some sort of sequel or spiritual successor. But Xenoblade did. That has to speak for something when considering the game's importance to the Wii era.

I myself am an advocate for both Isaac and Shulk to be included. I think if Isaac was included, he would be more magic based, while Shulk would be more based on his swordplay, meaning that both of them would be unique from the cast and one another.

AT's are a very poor reflection on how the character would play. They are made to balance each other out (i.e. you have attacking based ones such as Little Mac, Waluigi and you have non-damaging AT's like Isaac's, Shadow's). This means the move that they use was made in respect to both what they uniquely offer and how that compares to other AT's. Isaac will use his sword probably in the same way that Link does. His sword will mainly be his A attacks, and his psyenergy moves will main be his special attacks and perhaps throws. This doesnt make Link any less of a sword user, and it would make Isaac any less of a sword user.

But Sakurai has mainly based movesets on the game the character comes from. They usually heavily reference the games and mimic the play style of the games.We can see that with Mega Man, who doesnt even punch or crouch. Isaac game was about psyenergy attacks as well as using weapon based attacks (and djinn). So there is no reason to assume he would not be a sword based user.

1) The point is that is wasnt published by Nintendo in the US. That hurts its chances because of the value Nintendo put on the property.
2) The idea that Sakurai is looking main for new series is unfounded, not to mention that doesnt discount GS, since GS would be a new series in the same vein as AC then, now wouldnt it? AC was skipped over with Brawl as well. But back to the unfounded part, we don't know how many newcomers we are getting so it's hard to say that this is a trend. Mega Man was a third party entry and thus would be a new series no matter which third party was chosen. We got the Villager and WFT, but we also got Rosalina.

But you're distinction about "new series" means that just about any unrepresented series has a shot, not just Xenoblade. And since AC was looked over in Brawl, there's no reason GS couldnt get another look.
3) I get where you're coming from and I keep saying that I think you will be right, but I am purely going off what's been announced. The other two games were also developed by third parties (while Xenoblade was not), so they arent the same thing. There is a variety of titles that contributed to the Wii's era, not just Xenoblade. Yeah, it will probably get content before those other PR titles do, but there is a whole group of first party games that also merit content inclusion.

Edit: Additionally, the grouping together of the Project Rainfall titles is a fan based concept, and will probably not influence how Nintendo approaches those three IPs.

Based on the playstyle of Isaac within Golden Sun, I think it's highly unlikely we will get an Isaac that doesnt use his sword heavily. The simple fact that he offers a psyenergy moveset means that he would be in contention for most unique sword user. And I dont think Sakurai works like that. He doesnt try to make cast members distinct from each other unless they are clones. He brings fighters as they are presented in their game. Usually, he picks ones that can offer a really unique moveset, and thats how characters all remain unique. So if Isaac or Shulk were to make it in the game, it would be their own unique merits as character, rather than trying to different

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Lemme think... no.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Lemme think... no.

There really is nothing wrong with Shulk. He has a very good chance and I think he would be well-received.

It'd be a good move to get him into the game I think.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

There really is nothing wrong with Shulk. He has a very good chance and I think he would be well-received.

It'd be a good move to get him into the game I think.

> Reads this quote
> Remembers Shulk has a sword
You're right, nothing wrong at all.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Lemme think... no.

What a glorious argument against Shulk.

> Reads this quote
> Remembers Shulk has a sword
You're right, nothing wrong at all.

Being another sword user isn't a bad thing. i hope you know that.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

What a glorious argument against Shulk.

Being another sword user isn't a bad thing. i hope you know that.

What a glorious counter argument for Shulk. And yes: Another sword user = Bad thing.

 

[8-peacock-8]

What a glorious counter argument for Shulk. And yes: Another sword user = Bad thing.

No. It really isn't if the character can actually be unique. Which Shulk can.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

No. It really isn't if the character can actually be unique. Which Shulk can.

There's evidence Shulk can be unique? LOL.

 

[8-peacock-8]

There's evidence Shulk can be unique? LOL.

So you're too blind, or not creative enough, to see it. Good on you. You lost any chance of people being able to take you seriously.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Shulk may have some competition in the form of the protagonist of X, is that does release before Smah Bros

 

[BluePikmin11]

Now I wonder if people will be begging for the X protagonist like with Shulk once the game comes out.

 

[jaytalks]

I feel like the X protagonist would have not got enough lead in time for his inclusion, as Sakurai would have need to have been looking for him rather randomly. I have no reason to believe he would be looking for the X protagonist.

The situation with Roy was completely different. Essentially, Sakurai was looking for a character who could be a clone in a long running series that was already getting a rep (Marth). The X protagonist would presumably be an original character in a series that currently has no rep (assuming X and Xenoblade are connected). So I don't really see that happening.

 

[FlareHabanero]

1) The point is that is wasnt published by Nintendo in the US. That hurts its chances because of the value Nintendo put on the property.

No, Xenoblade Chronicles was published by Nintendo in all regions. They own the franchise 100%, so saying that they didn't is like the equivalent of saying "Metroid Prime 3: Corruption wasn't published by Nintendo" or "The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword wasn't published by Nintendo".

2) The idea that Sakurai is looking main for new series is unfounded, not to mention that doesnt discount GS, since GS would be a new series in the same vein as AC then, now wouldnt it? AC was skipped over with Brawl as well. But back to the unfounded part, we don't know how many newcomers we are getting so it's hard to say that this is a trend. Mega Man was a third party entry and thus would be a new series no matter which third party was chosen. We got the Villager and WFT, but we also got Rosalina.

But you're distinction about "new series" means that just about any unrepresented series has a shot, not just Xenoblade. And since AC was looked over in Brawl, there's no reason GS couldnt get another look.

For the record, Villager was overlooked because of the character being deemed inappropriate due to the pacifist nature of Animal Crossing. It had nothing to do with Animal Crossing not proving it's merits, because it clearly did showed it merits. But I will say that Golden Sun shouldn't be treat on the same level, because even though neither series had a character on the roster, it's pretty clear Animal Crossing was treasured a lot more with a stage, trophies, stickers, songs, etc. that pretty much compensated for the missing character. You cannot exactly say the same exact thing for Golden Sun.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Shulk may have some competition in the form of the protagonist of X, is that does release before Smah Bros

Not even close. He MIGHT be a trophy since Sakurai has added trophies from games that weren't released yet back in Melee. (Even if it releases before Smash i really doubt he'd get in)

 

[SmashChu]

What constitutes a series is precisely that. More than one game. Because that means its a brand. It's a series, meaning that there was more than one, hence the definition:
series: a number of things, events, or people of a similar kind or related nature coming one after another.

For example, the Last of Us. Really great game. Did phenomenally well. But at this point, since it's one game, it's not a franchise and not a series. You can't say that the Last of Us series is your favorite video game series. The Last of Us can be your favorite game, but it's not a series. Yet.

AW not getting in does not disprove this line of thinking. I'm not saying if you are a series that you are definitely getting in. Or the length of time the series affects anything like that. Nothing close to that. Series = more than one iteration.

Good to know your entire response was based on one line I wrote.

Again, the number of games isn't going to matter. I'm sure you came to this idea because "All the series are from long running ones with more than one game." Keep in mind that almost all Nintendo series, be it first or second party, have more than one title. But we can look at Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Puzzle League and so on and see that despite being long running series, they were not added into Smash. What I'm saying is that the number of games is relevant and your argument is hard to prove. You need to come up with some evidence before you make a claim statement.

And now apparently there needs to be proof to validate claims? Now apparently there needs to be a basis to predict a character? It doesn't go both ways. It can't be "we don't know what's likely so nothing can be dismissed" to "unverified and baseless claims are useless" and basically should be dismissed.

Ummmm, YEAH. You kind of need some backing before you go off making claims. That's kind of a big thing."What!? We have to defend our points with reason now less no one takes use serious?" Novel concept I know.

As for the second part, those two lines are not mutually exclusive. "we don't know what's likely so nothing can be dismissed" doesn't mean "no reason" but saying "We should look at less likely choices as well." Doesn't mean you don't have a reason. It means don't just dismiss ideas.

I never like seeing these Shulk vs. Isaac debates. Like others have already stated, the inclusion of one does not negate the other. Based on the fan base of these characters, as well as my own opinion, the best case scenario would be Shulk and Isaac both being playable. I don't think we can speculate that all of the AT will be the same at this point. We may still have Starfy and a Nintendog, but the dog is a different breed. Skull Kid is new and that phantom in the Zelda pic may be an AT as well. Who knows if Little Mac will actually be playable? I would not be surprised if a new Golden Sun game appeared on 3ds at some point, so maybe Matthew will replace Isaac as an AT, if Isaac is playable. Looking at the current pool of characters to choose from, I think Nintendo has so much more to gain from including unrepresented games or in the case of Xenoblade, soon to be franchises. I'm biased but Isaac and Shulk should both be playable.

It's popping up more on GameFAQs believe it or not. I think people are getting worried that Issac wont be in and that Shulk is a threat. It's similar to the stuff that happened buring Brawl. I agree with you that Shulk isn't stopping Issac. Issac's issues is that he's kind of past his prime and the poor DS sequel doesn't help.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So, let me get this straight.

Isaac = Krystal (aka the fanbase that is notably loud and will hunt down anything that is seen as a threat.)
Shulk = Wolf (aka the more quiet fanbase that is constantly seen as a threat to the fanbase above.)

At least, that's the closest analogy I can think of.

 

[Chalphy]

1) The point is that is wasnt published by Nintendo in the US. That hurts its chances because of the value Nintendo put on the property.

You're thinking of The Last Story, Xenoblade was the only OR game published by NoA.

 

[Weedy Spyze]

I support Shulk to be in Smash 4. Add me to the list on the front post if you're keeping it updated.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Glad to see I'm not the only one defending Shulk

First off, if you don't see how Shulk can be unique, then you either are deliberately ignoring the possibilities, or just aren't trying hard enough. Or you haven't played his game. Moral of the story is, don't be an idiot and just say he isn't unique because he has a sword. That's just ignorant. Especially when you deny ANY possibility of Shulk being unique.

Second, most of the arguments I've seen against Shulk aren't all that strong. "It isn't a series". While I admit that retros get in for specific reasons, Ice Cimbers would then not be considered a franchise, simply because it only had one game. It's simply a point that can't be proven to be relevant to character inclusion, and in my opinion, is irrelevant.

AT's are a very poor reflection on how the character would play. They are made to balance each other out (i.e. you have attacking based ones such as Little Mac, Waluigi and you have non-damaging AT's like Isaac's, Shadow's). This means the move that they use was made in respect to both what they uniquely offer and how that compares to other AT's. Isaac will use his sword probably in the same way that Link does. His sword will mainly be his A attacks, and his psyenergy moves will main be his special attacks and perhaps throws. This doesnt make Link any less of a sword user, and it would make Isaac any less of a sword user.

But Sakurai has mainly based movesets on the game the character comes from. They usually heavily reference the games and mimic the play style of the games.We can see that with Mega Man, who doesnt even punch or crouch. Isaac game was about psyenergy attacks as well as using weapon based attacks (and djinn). So there is no reason to assume he would not be a sword based user.

1) The point is that is wasnt published by Nintendo in the US. That hurts its chances because of the value Nintendo put on the property.
2) The idea that Sakurai is looking main for new series is unfounded, not to mention that doesnt discount GS, since GS would be a new series in the same vein as AC then, now wouldnt it? AC was skipped over with Brawl as well. But back to the unfounded part, we don't know how many newcomers we are getting so it's hard to say that this is a trend. Mega Man was a third party entry and thus would be a new series no matter which third party was chosen. We got the Villager and WFT, but we also got Rosalina.

But you're distinction about "new series" means that just about any unrepresented series has a shot, not just Xenoblade. And since AC was looked over in Brawl, there's no reason GS couldnt get another look.
3) I get where you're coming from and I keep saying that I think you will be right, but I am purely going off what's been announced. The other two games were also developed by third parties (while Xenoblade was not), so they arent the same thing. There is a variety of titles that contributed to the Wii's era, not just Xenoblade. Yeah, it will probably get content before those other PR titles do, but there is a whole group of first party games that also merit content inclusion.

Edit: Additionally, the grouping together of the Project Rainfall titles is a fan based concept, and will probably not influence how Nintendo approaches those three IPs.

Based on the playstyle of Isaac within Golden Sun, I think it's highly unlikely we will get an Isaac that doesnt use his sword heavily. The simple fact that he offers a psyenergy moveset means that he would be in contention for most unique sword user. And I dont think Sakurai works like that. He doesnt try to make cast members distinct from each other unless they are clones. He brings fighters as they are presented in their game. Usually, he picks ones that can offer a really unique moveset, and thats how characters all remain unique. So if Isaac or Shulk were to make it in the game, it would be their own unique merits as character, rather than trying to different

You're missing my point about getting passed over/not becoming playable.

It's been shown from evidence that an Animal Crossing character was considered, but Sakurai couldn't figure out how to get it to work. Isaac was given an Assist Trophy role. There is no evidence of Isaac being considered for a playable spot.

There's one thing you said about how The Project Rainfall initiative doesn't effect anything. Well, the fan surge may not, but sales and marketing talk. Xenoblade was a very strong title. While The Last Story may have outsold it elsewhere, that doesn't change the fact that Nintendo has a Xenobladeesque game in the works.

 

[SmashChu]

So, let me get this straight.

Isaac = Krystal (aka the fanbase that is notably loud and will hunt down anything that is seen as a threat.)
Shulk = Wolf (aka the more quiet fanbase that is constantly seen as a threat to the fanbase above.)

At least, that's the closest analogy I can think of.

Pretty much. With Rosalina, it showed that popularity didn't have as much weight as we though. Rosalina wasn't popular, but she was a current character and has been a predominate character in the series. This means being current helps. if this is the case, it hurts Issac and helps Shulk. Issac's last game was in 2002 and he missed his chance in Brawl. While there was a game on the DS, it didn't go over well. Conversly, Shulk is current and his game has quite a bit of prestige. So Issac's boat has set sail while Shulk's may be coming into port. This has made Issac fans go on the defense and they target Shulk to justify Issac as they are both JRPG characters. That's what I'm seeing at least.

Glad to see I'm not the only one defending Shulk

You are in the Shulk thread.

 

[jaytalks]

No, Xenoblade Chronicles was published by Nintendo in all regions. They own the franchise 100%, so saying that they didn't is like the equivalent of saying "Metroid Prime 3: Corruption wasn't published by Nintendo" or "The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword wasn't published by Nintendo".


For the record, Villager was overlooked because of the character being deemed inappropriate due to the pacifist nature of Animal Crossing. It had nothing to do with Animal Crossing not proving it's merits, because it clearly did showed it merits. But I will say that Golden Sun shouldn't be treat on the same level, because even though neither series had a character on the roster, it's pretty clear Animal Crossing was treasured a lot more with a stage, trophies, stickers, songs, etc. that pretty much compensated for the missing character. You cannot exactly say the same exact thing for Golden Sun.

My bad. I mixed up the Last Story and Xenoblade. I retract the NA point.

I was making the point based on what Scoliosis Jones considered a new series via his own admission. AC and GS are clearly on different levels, but so is Xenoblade for that matter (and virtually every other non-represented Nintendo series).

Good to know your entire response was based on one line I wrote.

Again, the number of games isn't going to matter. I'm sure you came to this idea because "All the series are from long running ones with more than one game." Keep in mind that almost all Nintendo series, be it first or second party, have more than one title. But we can look at Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Puzzle League and so on and see that despite being long running series, they were not added into Smash. What I'm saying is that the number of games is relevant and your argument is hard to prove. You need to come up with some evidence before you make a claim statement.

I made the long post because that was the second time you asked me about it. I thought if I elaborated you would understand it better.

It's not the number of games. It's whether it is a franchise. I keep saying that.

And based on every single series in Smash since it's inception, other than retros, every character has come from a franchise. Mother. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. Fire Emblem. Pikmin. Wii Fit (which is actually a part of the larger Wii series). Animal Crossing. Metroid. That's the evidence.

I am not saying that the amount of games in a series matter. Whether the game is a part of a series is what matters. The more games in a series doesnt matter, unless you consider that more games usually indicates more success, which is something that Nintendo and Sakurai clearly value.

In order to be a series, you need to have more than one title. Hence my point of the Last of Us. It's not a series. It's a game. Of course all Nintendo series have more than one title. That's what makes them a series! There are plenty of Nintendo games that have been one and done: Electroplankton. Disaster: Day of Crisis. FlingSmash. The Last Story. Pandora's Tower. That's off the top off my head. However, Nintendo is a successful company, so generally many games do become series. If it a first game is successful, publishers will often turn it into a series.

And finally I am not anti-Shulk guy. I bought the game at launch. But you can like a character and question their likelihood.

Edit:

Glad to see I'm not the only one defending Shulk

First off, if you don't see how Shulk can be unique, then you either are deliberately ignoring the possibilities, or just aren't trying hard enough. Or you haven't played his game. Moral of the story is, don't be an idiot and just say he isn't unique because he has a sword. That's just ignorant. Especially when you deny ANY possibility of Shulk being unique.

Second, most of the arguments I've seen against Shulk aren't all that strong. "It isn't a series". While I admit that retros get in for specific reasons, Ice Cimbers would then not be considered a franchise, simply because it only had one game. It's simply a point that can't be proven to be relevant to character inclusion, and in my opinion, is irrelevant.


You're missing my point about getting passed over/not becoming playable.

It's been shown from evidence that an Animal Crossing character was considered, but Sakurai couldn't figure out how to get it to work. Isaac was given an Assist Trophy role. There is no evidence of Isaac being considered for a playable spot.

There's one thing you said about how The Project Rainfall initiative doesn't effect anything. Well, the fan surge may not, but sales and marketing talk. Xenoblade was a very strong title. While The Last Story may have outsold it elsewhere, that doesn't change the fact that Nintendo has a Xenobladeesque game in the works.

Ice Climbers is just a game. It's not a franchise. Like the Last of Us is just a game. Not a franchise. In terms of being relevant to character inclusion, the evidence is there if you want to see it. Evidence: Every non-retro character included in Smash is from a series. A franchise. Now you can choose to ignore that fact, but you can't say there is no evidence.

1) Here's your words: Sakurai is looking mostly for new series. He only saw Pikmin and Animal Crossing as deserving, and Animal Crossing (which continues to be a strong franchise) didn't even get a character until now.
And...
Animal Crossing was a new series in context to inclusion to Smash Bros. It was previously unrepresented, and as it goes without saying, Xenoblade is in the same boat.
Under that definition, GS is also in the same boat. It is also a new series under those terms. Now if you want to discuss the AC character being considered previously, that's perfectly fine.
2) That's sales, which come from when people buy the game. Nothing related to Project Rainfall itself. The comparison to its success in relation to other OR titles is what I was critical of. It's positive fan and critical reception comes from people playing the game, not project Rainfall.

Monolithsoft is a Nintendo owned developer. It was bound to produce something like its previous games. This game actually has a lot in common with Xenogears as well, a non Nintendo product. The Last of Us is similar to the Uncharted series. Doesn't mean they are connected. Assassin's Creed is similar to the Prince of Persia. Not related. Both these game were framed as spiritual successors to those other series. There is no reason X couldnt be something similar. My point is, let's not count all our eggs before they hatch.

Edit 2: apparently the Last of Us has confirmed for a sequel in planning stages, so I have to stop using that as my example. Heavy Rain is my new example.

 

[SmashChu]

I made the long post because that was the second time you asked me about it. I thought if I elaborated you would understand it better.

It's not the number of games. It's whether it is a franchise. I keep saying that.

And based on every single series in Smash since it's inception, other than retros, every character has come from a franchise. Mother. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. Fire Emblem. Pikmin. Wii Fit (which is actually a part of the larger Wii series). Animal Crossing. Metroid. That's the evidence.

I am not saying that the amount of games in a series matter. Whether the game is a part of a series is what matters. The more games in a series doesnt matter, unless you consider that more games usually indicates more success, which is something that Nintendo and Sakurai clearly value.

In order to be a series, you need to have more than one title. Hence my point of the Last of Us. It's not a series. It's a game. Of course all Nintendo series have more than one title. That's what makes them a series! There are plenty of Nintendo games that have been one and done: Electroplankton. Disaster: Day of Crisis. FlingSmash. The Last Story. Pandora's Tower. That's off the top off my head. However, Nintendo is a successful company, so generally many games do become series. If it a first game is successful, publishers will often turn it into a series.

And finally I am not anti-Shulk guy. I bought the game at launch. But you can like a character and question their likelihood.

And you didn't read my post. Here it is again with the important line.

Again, the number of games isn't going to matter. I'm sure you came to this idea because "All the series are from long running ones with more than one game." Keep in mind that almost all Nintendo series, be it first or second party, have more than one title. But we can look at Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Puzzle League and so on and see that despite being long running series, they were not added into Smash. What I'm saying is that the number of games is relevant and your argument is hard to prove. You need to come up with some evidence before you make a claim statement.

Your taking a stance with little to no support. I know what a series is. It doesn't mean that being a series is a significant criteria.

Also, as others have said, it looks like the game will get a sequel anyway.

 

[jaytalks]

And you didn't read my post. Here it is again with the important line.

Again, the number of games isn't going to matter. I'm sure you came to this idea because "All the series are from long running ones with more than one game." Keep in mind that almost all Nintendo series, be it first or second party, have more than one title. But we can look at Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Puzzle League and so on and see that despite being long running series, they were not added into Smash. What I'm saying is that the number of games is relevant and your argument is hard to prove. You need to come up with some evidence before you make a claim statement.

Your taking a stance with little to no support. I know what a series is. It doesn't mean that being a series is a significant criteria.

Also, as others have said, it looks like the game will get a sequel anyway.

I can point the important line with bolding as well:
In order to be a series, you need to have more than one title. Hence my point of the Last of Us.Edit Heavy Rain]. It's not a series. It's a game. Of course all Nintendo series have more than one title. That's what makes them a series! There are plenty of Nintendo games that have been one and done: Electroplankton. Disaster: Day of Crisis. FlingSmash. The Last Story. Pandora's Tower. That's off the top off my head. However, Nintendo is a successful company, so generally many games do become series. If it a first game is successful, publishers will often turn it into a series.

And again, here's the support:
with every single series in Smash since it's inception, other than retros, every character has come from a franchise. Mother. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. Fire Emblem. Pikmin. Wii Fit (which is actually a part of the larger Wii series). Animal Crossing. Metroid. That's the evidence.

I think X will be a sequel, as I've said since the beginning. But it's not official confirmed and X could easily be a spiritual successor akin to Assasin's Creed and the Prince of Persia series.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Glad to see I'm not the only one defending Shulk

Well, I am mainly here because of people making strawman arguments, and of course me loving Xenoblade Chronicles in general.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I can point the important line with bolding as well:
In order to be a series, you need to have more than one title. Hence my point of the Last of Us.Edit Heavy Rain]. It's not a series. It's a game. Of course all Nintendo series have more than one title. That's what makes them a series! There are plenty of Nintendo games that have been one and done: Electroplankton. Disaster: Day of Crisis. FlingSmash. The Last Story. Pandora's Tower. That's off the top off my head. However, Nintendo is a successful company, so generally many games do become series. If it a first game is successful, publishers will often turn it into a series.

And again, here's the support:
with every single series in Smash since it's inception, other than retros, every character has come from a franchise. Mother. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. Fire Emblem. Pikmin. Wii Fit (which is actually a part of the larger Wii series). Animal Crossing. Metroid. That's the evidence.

I think X will be a sequel, as I've said since the beginning. But it's not official confirmed and X could easily be a spiritual successor akin to Assasin's Creed and the Prince of Persia series.

That is still not enough to claim it is a basis to include a character. There are four major criteria to character selection. Being: game balance, unique traits, fit into the style and whatever the last one is. Being a series is not a criteria to fill.

Without any evidence to support that being a series is actually taken into consideration, THAT is why it is irrelevant. We're not discounting the fact that every character is a part of a series. We're discounting the fact that it matters because there isn't a shred of proof as to the legitimacy of that argument.

It could also be the fact that it makes sense to add all of the characters there because not every major character was represented up until Brawl. We're beginning to hit the bottom of the barrel character wise.

Some claims DO require proof to say that it means something. I could say that a bowel movement I had earlier in the day showed to me that Shulk will be in. But I would need proof as to why I should believe the turd in my toilet. That is where your point fails. You can say it all you want. But there is no definitive, 100%, undeniable proof that that is a valid criteria in character selection.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I guess I'm just one of those guys who want both Shulk and Isaac in...

I must be in a minority.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Nah there are plenty who want both of them in. I've seen it several times in rosters.