Heavy Gravity Might Be Good For Competitive Play

[EPsilon933]

It's kind of a self-explanatory concept. It improves combo ability a little and nerfs recoveries (buffs edge guarding). There's not much to really explain beyond that. Try it. It's pretty fun for what competitive players would want

There are a few drawbacks to it though. Physics-based recoveries like Megaman's get severely nerfed (he can only go like 3 feet high). But it shouldn't be much of a problem. Character balance isn't needed to make a competitive fighting game. Just look at Melee

Also, it shouldn't be too difficult of a rule to implement. Project M is the competitive standard change to the game and that has huge changes to the game with high requirements to make it happen. Adding a setting in special smash is a cinch

I don't have a Wii U nor Smash 4, so I can't test this on my own, but heavy gravity + smooth lander might be the even better than just 1 of those changes alone


Sample of heavy gravity gameplay
http://youtu.be/_X8D6oK5wpw

 

[Ulevo]

This was suggested when Brawl first came out, and it flopped. That's all I'll say about the matter.

 

[Pyr]

This was suggested when Brawl first came out, and it flopped. That's all I'll say about the matter.

I don't think that's the intention of this post.

 

[Code Bread]

Suggesting that the competitive community use a special mode for competition is just giving the Melee diehards more fuel.

I don't think that's the intention of this post.

It's a good point, though. It's hard, if not impossible, to argue that Smash 4 is much more competitively viable than Brawl, but it's still the same topic. I think this would flop too.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Why don't we wait until the metagame is, you know, mature before we even begin to entertain thoughts of messing with such fundamental physics settings as gravity?

 

[Karsticles]

Doesnt this mess with aerials that normally autocancel?

 

[Raijinken]

Character balance is needed to grow the competitive base and keep things interesting to watch. And Nandai and Sakurai sure as heck won't be spending time balancing things to function right in Special Smash.

Also, with the sheer number of spikes in this game, edgeguarding is already safe and rewarding.

 

[MegaMissingno]

It's hard to replace vanilla with mucking about Special Smash. Newcomers into the scene are going to be quickly turned off when they see a completely different set of physics from what they've been practicing since the game came out. Vanilla must take center stage, because that's what most players are coming for.

Still, if there is interest I could see someone making a fun side event out of it.

 

[Locke 06]

There are a few drawbacks to it though. Physics-based recoveries like Megaman's get severely nerfed (he can only go like 3 feet high). But it shouldn't be much of a problem. Character balance isn't needed to make a competitive fighting game. Just look at Melee

Sorry. What? Shouldn't be much of a problem? Okay. Let's just scrap the characters who's recoveries no longer work and see what we have left.

-_____-

 

[IsmaR]

This was suggested when Brawl first came out, and it flopped. That's all I'll say about the matter.

The suggestion was actually regarding Damage Ratio being slightly altered, IIRC. I remember being one of the few actually willing to give it a shot.

Heavy Gravity is a whole 'nother can of worms besides recoveries. Completely changes everything, down to stage neutrality/legality.

Battlefield is a completely different stage if no one can reach the top platforms.

 

[TL?]

Chances of this catching on: 0%

 

[deepseadiva]

Like a lot of kinda-competitively-viable ways of playing Smash... no ones gonna want to play it.

There's also Smash with Food on Light.
And Smooth Landing Smash.
Standardized Item Play.
Altered Damage Ratio Smash.
Stuff like Balanced Brawl falls into this category.

It's not wrong or anything, but I'd imagine most people want to play the out-of-the-box original game. But who knows it might catch on if its particularly fun.

 

[Diabolical]

Like a lot of kinda-competitively-viable ways of playing Smash... no ones gonna want to play it.

There's also Smash with Food on Light.
And Smooth Landing Smash.
Standardized Item Play.
Altered Damage Ratio Smash.
Stuff like Balanced Brawl falls into this category.

It's not wrong or anything, but I'd imagine most people want to play the out-of-the-box original game. But who knows it might catch on if its particularly fun.

If you mention Balance Brawl you can't ignore the contraction in your logic and that is Project M

 

[deepseadiva]

If you mention Balance Brawl you can't ignore the contraction in your logic and that is Project M

I consider Balanced Brawl a player patch, along with the ones listed above, trying to "fix" Vanilla.

Project M, Brawl+, Brawl- minus advertise themselves as completely different products.

 

[EPsilon933]

Sorry. What? Shouldn't be much of a problem? Okay. Let's just scrap the characters who's recoveries no longer work and see what we have left.

-_____-

Recovery isn't everything about a character. The physics-based ones I know of are Megaman, Duck Hunt, King Dedede, and Diddy Kong (unless you up B sideways). There might be more characters with up Bs who ignore physics temporarilyy and go set distances

 

[popsofctown]

True combos are not good for the game

 

[Locke 06]

Recovery isn't everything about a character. The physics-based ones I know of are Megaman, Duck Hunt, King Dedede, and Diddy Kong (unless you up B sideways). There might be more characters with up Bs who ignore physics temporarilyy and go set distances

No, recovery isn't everything about a character. It's not like we're playing a game where the objective is to avoid getting knocked off the stage.

 

[Gatoray]

Game designers at Namco and Nintendo spend countless hours balancing the game around a normal ruleset and now the competitive community is going to F it all up by only playing in a special mode? If this isn't a slap to Sakurai's face I don't know what is.

 

[EPsilon933]

No, recovery isn't everything about a character. It's not like we're playing a game where the objective is to avoid getting knocked off the stage.

The edge game is so much more fun when there's a greater chance someone could get KOed off stage instead of recovering guaranteed

Game designers at Namco and Nintendo spend countless hours balancing the game around a normal ruleset and now the competitive community is going to F it all up by only playing in a special mode? If this isn't a slap to Sakurai's face I don't know what is.

Implying that Sakurai never slapped competitive Smashers in the face?

 

[Code Bread]

Implying that Sakurai never slapped competitive Smashers in the face?

Or that Sakurai hasn't already been slapped in the face a dozen times by competitive smashers. They just do it in his sleep.

 

[Diamond DHD]

I'm all for making Smash 4 competitively viable, but it needs to stand on its own 2 feet as opposed to messing with special smash to make Melee 2.0. What can be done is using features unique to Smash 4 to create a deep and interesting metagame, like custom moves or maybe even equipment. I'm a strong believer that Smash 4 has the ability to be competitive without messing with it too much, it's not as random or broken like Brawl was, rage mode means games are less likely to run for longer after 100%, omega stages mean more stage variety, more characters and the use of custom moves make the scene more diverse and makes games more skill based as opposed to memorising MUs. If we start relying on special smash, then the competitive scene will fall flat on its face and everyone will move to/stay on Project M and Melee.

 

[EPsilon933]

I'm all for making Smash 4 competitively viable, but it needs to stand on its own 2 feet as opposed to messing with special smash to make Melee 2.0. What can be done is using features unique to Smash 4 to create a deep and interesting metagame, like custom moves or maybe even equipment. I'm a strong believer that Smash 4 has the ability to be competitive without messing with it too much, it's not as random or broken like Brawl was, rage mode means games are less likely to run for longer after 100%, omega stages mean more stage variety, more characters and the use of custom moves make the scene more diverse and makes games more skill based as opposed to memorising MUs. If we start relying on special smash, then the competitive scene will fall flat on its face and everyone will move to/stay on Project M and Melee.

But Smash 4 isn't as fun as Melee and Project M. Heavy gravity (and smooth lander) would make the game more exciting to watch. Sure it copies Melee a bit, but Melee is just a good Smash game. Why not copy a working formula? It's been working for 13 years so far. Just because it's similar to Melee doesn't mean it shouldn't be used

The intent of heavy gravity isn't to make it Melee 2.0. It's to fix the problem of lack of combo ability and nerfing recoveries because they're too guaranteed (buffing edgeguarding because it's too ineffective)

I'm a strong believer that competitive Smash can become even more fun with 1 or 2 additions to the competitive rule set

What's the point of having a plethora of viable characters when the global gamplay for them isn't as fun? (quality > quantity)

If we don't make the game more competitively fun, players will quit and the game will fall flat on its face and everyone will move to/stay on Project M and Melee

 

[Locke 06]

The edge game is so much more fun when there's a greater chance someone could get KOed off stage instead of recovering guaranteed

Since when is recovering guaranteed? Edge guarding is a thing. Do you play Smash 4? Smash 4's off stage game is more exciting than melee/brawl/64 due to eliminating edge hogging and ledge stalling. It's also because characters can go deep off stage attacking and still recover. Edge guarding is fine in this game/better than it has ever been before.

You're making everyone feel like Little Mac unless they have a physics defying side-B or a horizontal up-B. (edit: How exciting is it when you gimp Little Mac? The answer is not very exciting)

 

[deepseadiva]

But Smash 4 isn't as fun as Melee and Project M.

Says you.

Which is fine. Opinions are fine. But getting the world to play Special Smash with you is going to take convincing. Pretty sure the majority of the world likes Smash 4 as it is (especially since it's being patched). You're unfortunately in a minority.

 

[EPsilon933]

Since when is recovering guaranteed? Edge guarding is a thing. Do you play Smash 4? Smash 4's off stage game is more exciting than melee/brawl/64 due to eliminating edge hogging and ledge stalling. It's also because characters can go deep off stage attacking and still recover. Edge guarding is fine in this game/better than it has ever been before.

You're making everyone feel like Little Mac unless they have a physics defying side-B or a horizontal up-B. (edit: How exciting is it when you gimp Little Mac? The answer is not very exciting)

Since Smash 4 (actually Brawl). Characters recover too high to edge guard them effectively

I play Smash 4 with a friend of mine. I don't have my own console to examine this game on my own. I just play it with him + another player sometimes

I'm not sure if the antiedgehogging mechanic is a good thing. It takes away a good edge guard option that recoverers had to fight against. But the invincibility gain happening only once is certainly a good thing

There's no risk of someone suddenly dying in normal gravity. Edge guarding was best in Melee. It allowed floaty/floatier characters to go deep off stage too to edge guard (Peach, Jigglypuff, Marth, Sheik) and still gave that suspense that a character could suddenly die

I've never tried Little Mac, nor played against him, so I can't comment on the analogy

 

[deepseadiva]

I've never tried Little Mac, nor played against him, so I can't comment on the analogy

Suddenly it's clear why you say "this game is boring".

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But Smash 4 isn't as fun as Melee and Project M. Heavy gravity (and smooth lander) would make the game more exciting to watch.

These are both completely subjective claims.

 

[hey_there]

I don't share the same cynicism as everyone else and I'd be willing to give this a shot just to see how to plays. I could see smooth lander + heavy gravity being a niche metagame that might appeal to some people and again, I'd be willing to give it a shot on one condition: it should be called the Smooth Gravity ruleset =).

 

[Locke 06]

Since Smash 4 (actually Brawl). Characters recover too high to edge guard them effectively

I'm not sure if the antiedgehogging mechanic is a good thing. It takes away a good edge guard option that recoverers had to fight against. But the invincibility gain happening only once is certainly a good thing

There's no risk of someone suddenly dying in normal gravity. Edge guarding was best in Melee. It allowed floaty/floatier characters to go deep off stage too to edge guard (Peach, Jigglypuff, Marth, Sheik) and still gave that suspense that a character could suddenly die

I've never tried Little Mac, nor played against him, so I can't comment on the analogy

Characters who recover high should get punished accordingly with the exception of characters who's recovery allows them to act out of their recovery move. Who in Brawl recovered too high to edge guard effectively (with the exception of those who could glide)?

Antiedgehogging is good. It takes away a boring edge guard option that recoverers had to fight against. I would much rather see someone get gimped/spiked off stage than see someone not make it because someone else was sitting on the ledge.

There is plenty of risk of someone suddenly dying in normal gravity (unless you're talking about SD's). The edge guarder is at an advantage, but they can still get spiked/gimped off stage (happens a lot against DK or WFT). Self destructs are boring. Peach can't even go deep (never could) because she didn't have a good vertical recovery. I'm talking edge of the blast zone with Pit deep and he'll make it back. Your wanting for SD's is questionable. I don't think I'm alone when I say the off stage game in this iteration of smash is the best it has ever been.

Play the game before trying to change it. This is really just a flame bait post that I feel bad for falling for. -_-

Edit: Also, by increasing gravity, you're getting rid of any horizontal combos that need the opponent in the air. Mario's utilt combos probably won't work because the opponent will go down to the ground too fast. Increasing gravity won't accomplish more combos, since the "combos" that are programmed in Smash rely in normal gravity.

 

[EPsilon933]

Characters who recover high should get punished accordingly with the exception of characters who's recovery allows them to act out of their recovery move. Who in Brawl recovered too high to edge guard effectively (with the exception of those who could glide)?

Antiedgehogging is good. It takes away a boring edge guard option that recoverers had to fight against. I would much rather see someone get gimped/spiked off stage than see someone not make it because someone else was sitting on the ledge.

There is plenty of risk of someone suddenly dying in normal gravity (unless you're talking about SD's). The edge guarder is at an advantage, but they can still get spiked/gimped off stage (happens a lot against DK or WFT). Self destructs are boring. Peach can't even go deep (never could) because she didn't have a good vertical recovery. I'm talking edge of the blast zone with Pit deep and he'll make it back. Your wanting for SD's is questionable. I don't think I'm alone when I say the off stage game in this iteration of smash is the best it has ever been.

Play the game before trying to change it. This is really just a flame bait post that I feel bad for falling for. -_-

Edit: Also, by increasing gravity, you're getting rid of any horizontal combos that need the opponent in the air. Mario's utilt combos probably won't work because the opponent will go down to the ground too fast. Increasing gravity won't accomplish more combos, since the "combos" that are programmed in Smash rely in normal gravity.

The 1st sentence refers to when recoveries became too good. The second sentence explains why Smash 4's recoveries are too good, to be a bit more specific

Edgehogging can create guessing games. Let's say a Fox is doing the stationary part of his up b animation and the opponent is Falco currently holding the edge
If Fox goes for the edge and Falco rolls onto the stage, Fox dies
If Fox goes for the edge and Falco let's go > 2nd jump > bairs, Fox lives
If Fox goes for above the edge and Falco rolls onto the stage, Fox lives
If Fox goes for above the edge and Falco let's go > 2nd jump > bairs, Fox dies
I would much rather see successful edgeguards/recoveries where players make hard reads against each other

In Melee, Peach can float below a stage for up to 4 seconds to edge guard an opponent. Aside from that, we both had different operational definitions for "deep"

I don't want SDs. That's more of a player just messing up

By increasing gravity, those combos where opponents fly low to the ground end up turning into tech chases. Lucario, for example, can bthrow/fthrow an opponent and follow up with a (charged) aura sphere, if he predicts the tech well. There may be a few situational combos lost, but more are likely to be gained

 

[Code Bread]

But Smash 4 isn't as fun as Melee and Project M.

lol

Heavy gravity (and smooth lander) would make the game more exciting to watch.

lol

Sure it copies Melee a bit, but Melee is just a good Smash game.

lol

The intent of heavy gravity isn't to make it Melee 2.0. It's to fix the problem of lack of combo ability and nerfing recoveries because they're too guaranteed (buffing edgeguarding because it's too ineffective)

lol

What's the point of having a plethora of viable characters when the global gamplay for them isn't as fun? (quality > quantity)

lol

If we don't make the game more competitively fun, players will quit and the game will fall flat on its face and everyone will move to/stay on Project M and Melee

lol

 

[Thinkaman]

It's kind of a self-explanatory concept. It improves combo ability a little and nerfs recoveries (buffs edge guarding). There's not much to really explain beyond that. Try it. It's pretty fun for what competitive players would want

There are a few drawbacks to it though. Physics-based recoveries like Megaman's get severely nerfed (he can only go like 3 feet high). But it shouldn't be much of a problem. Character balance isn't needed to make a competitive fighting game. Just look at Melee

Also, it shouldn't be too difficult of a rule to implement. Project M is the competitive standard change to the game and that has huge changes to the game with high requirements to make it happen. Adding a setting in special smash is a cinch

I don't have a Wii U nor Smash 4, so I can't test this on my own, but heavy gravity + smooth lander might be the even better than just 1 of those changes alone

I don't have a Wii U nor Smash 4, so I can't test this on my own, but heavy gravity + smooth lander might be the even better

I don't have a Wii U nor Smash 4

 

[Revan_23]

It's kind of a self-explanatory concept. It improves combo ability a little and nerfs recoveries (buffs edge guarding). There's not much to really explain beyond that. Try it. It's pretty fun for what competitive players would want

There are a few drawbacks to it though. Physics-based recoveries like Megaman's get severely nerfed (he can only go like 3 feet high). But it shouldn't be much of a problem. Character balance isn't needed to make a competitive fighting game. Just look at Melee

Also, it shouldn't be too difficult of a rule to implement. Project M is the competitive standard change to the game and that has huge changes to the game with high requirements to make it happen. Adding a setting in special smash is a cinch

I don't have a Wii U nor Smash 4, so I can't test this on my own, but heavy gravity + smooth lander might be the even better than just 1 of those changes alone


Sample of heavy gravity gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw_FF4fJvq0

I played with smooth lander on heavy mode. ****ing amazing. I can't even go back to vanilla smash 4.

Mega man and sonics vanilla recoveries are pretty bad though. I just switched them to one of the custom recoveries and it was perfect.

 

[Maniclysane]

Mew2King didn't (or still doesn't) have a Gamecube+Melee for a very long time, but still knew more about the game than most or any other players. If he plays the game at his friend's place frequently, then he still can have educated opinions on the game. I don't think owning/not owning the game means much. Dedication, maybe.

Wii U's are f'n expensive though.

 

[EPsilon933]

Mew2King didn't (or still doesn't) have a Gamecube+Melee for a very long time, but still knew more about the game than most or any other players. If he plays the game at his friend's place frequently, then he still can have educated opinions on the game. I don't think owning/not owning the game means much. Dedication, maybe.

Wii U's are f'n expensive though.

That sounds more like PC Chris than Mew2King

 

[Maniclysane]

They're both good and knowledgeable players regardless. I've just heard from m2k that he hasn't owned the game in a long time and never practices on his own, but he johns a lot so idk.

 

[EPsilon933]

They're both good and knowledgeable players regardless. I've just heard from m2k that he hasn't owned the game in a long time and never practices on his own, but he johns a lot so idk.

I don't know about currently, but back from like 2002 - 2007, Mew2King certainly had a Gamecube and Melee. How else would he have dissected basically every small detail about the game? PC Chris never had a Gamecube nor Melee back then and he was still really good. We were thinking of different time frames

 

[Ulevo]

The suggestion was actually regarding Damage Ratio being slightly altered, IIRC. I remember being one of the few actually willing to give it a shot.

Heavy Gravity is a whole 'nother can of worms besides recoveries. Completely changes everything, down to stage neutrality/legality.

Battlefield is a completely different stage if no one can reach the top platforms.

No, it was actually for heavy Brawl.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll never switch because it actively makes Pit SLOWER. All his aerials SHFF autocancel when you don't have wonky casual modes on. I'm sorry to say, but it'll never work or catch on.

 

[Diabolical]

I'd recommend if you like Melee so much.....to just play Melee. I'd also recommend to not make any more videos about Smash4 being at Evo too, lol. That was you right?