Heavy Gravity Might Be Good For Competitive Play

[PCHU]

It sucks that nobody's really even willing to try this.

I can't say much on the matter besides that I've played this game since it came out on 3DS, and if there's anything to spice it up without killing it, it'd be fun to give it a shot.
The thing about people wanting to play something "out of the box" is kinda true; it's kinda silly because it only takes about 5 seconds, but that's the way people think.

As far as this being a slap in the face to Sakurai...
There's a bunch I could say about it, but it'd be misinterpreted as bashing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's a lot of reasons why I'm not willing to. Look at who I main and tell me about his jump height.

Make that heavier. Did you see Dr. Mario's short hop? Even for MELEE that was low. This completely ****s physics recoveries but also already bad recoveries get nominally worse to make the offstage game non-existent.

This just takes the worst part of my main and magnifies it. It's why I can't really....like it, I'm sorry.

 

[EPsilon933]

I'd recommend if you like Melee so much.....to just play Melee. I'd also recommend to not make any more videos about Smash4 being at Evo too, lol. That was you right?

I recommend making Smash 4 into a better competitive game like Melee since Melee's such a good game

There's a lot of reasons why I'm not willing to. Look at who I main and tell me about his jump height.

Make that heavier. Did you see Dr. Mario's short hop? Even for MELEE that was low. This completely ****s physics recoveries but also already bad recoveries get nominally worse to make the offstage game non-existent.

This just takes the worst part of my main and magnifies it. It's why I can't really....like it, I'm sorry.

Then pick a better character. It's the same thing as picking a tournament viable character instead of a useless one

 

[LancerStaff]

I recommend making Smash 4 into a better competitive game like Melee since Melee's such a good game

So us who like the game as-is (AKA not like Melee at all) just have to step back?

 

[madworlder]

There are plenty of games that are both successful competitively and not like melee. Please stop trying to introduce wacky rules.

 

[EPsilon933]

So us who like the game as-is (AKA not like Melee at all) just have to step back?

If this were to become part of the competitive standard, I guess that would be true in a dramatic way of wording it. Do I have to step back for supporting my opinion about a change?

There are plenty of games that are both successful competitively and not like melee. Please stop trying to introduce wacky rules.

It's not wacky at all

 

[GhettoNinja]

If this were to become part of the competitive standard, I guess that would be true in a dramatic way of wording it. Do I have to step back for supporting my opinion about a change?
/quote]
If you can't like the game for what it is you should just go play Melee or Pm because this game is clearly not for you(or you can just wait 5 years for when more pretentious ***** decide to mess with SM4SH to make it more like melee) also telling people not play as characters they like because you think everyone should just play meta characters goes against everything this community stands for hell one of the amazing things about smash is that you can take characters considered low tier and make them top tier(examples: Chu Dat - IceClimbers,Mango - Puff.)

If you can't like the game for what it is you should just go play Melee or Pm because this game is clearly not for you(or you can just way 5 years for when more pretentious ***** decide to mess with SM4SH to make it more like melee) also telling people not play as characters they like because you think everyone should just play meta characters goes against everything this community stands for hell one of the amazing things about smash is that you can take characters considered low tier and make them top tier(examples: Chu Dat - IceClimbers,Mango - Puff.)

 

[EPsilon933]

If you can't like the game for what it is you should just go play Melee or Pm because this game is clearly not for you(or you can just way 5 years for when more pretentious ***** decide to mess with SM4SH to make it more like melee) also telling people not play as characters they like because you think everyone should just play meta characters goes against everything this community stands for hell one of the amazing things about smash is that you can take characters considered low tier and make them top tier(examples: Chu Dat - IceClimbers,Mango - Puff.)

I can also keep speaking up an opinion because I like to discuss it

The intent is to fix 2 of the problems I see in Smash 4. Coincidentally, they also make it more like Melee. Smash 4 can't be just like Melee because it doesn't have enough hit stun and VI isn't as significant as DI

Would you encourage a Pichu player in Melee to keep playing Pichu? Or would you advise them to play as a tournament v[iable character? Isn't this a competitive community? Don't we stand for competing? Players using better characters makes better competition

Characters will at 1st seem low tier with this suggested additional rule if it were to be implemented. That would give you ideal of a low tier character ranking up to tournament viabilityy a possibility. Who knows which characters would survive their physics based up b nerfs?

 

[GhettoNinja]

I can also keep speaking up an opinion because I like to discuss it

The intent is to fix 2 of the problems I see in Smash 4. Coincidentally, they also make it more like Melee. Smash 4 can't be just like Melee because it doesn't have enough hit stun and VI isn't as significant as DI

Would you encourage a Pichu player in Melee to keep playing Pichu? Or would you advise them to play as a tournament v[iable character? Isn't this a competitive community? Don't we stand for competing? Players using better characters makes better competition

Characters will at 1st seem low tier with this suggested additional rule if it were to be implemented. That would give you ideal of a low tier character ranking up to tournament viabilityy a possibility. Who knows which characters would survive their physics based up b nerfs?

Alright I'm gonna sum up my opinion because before I was just tired of seeing people comment about changing SM4SH. So here's the thing not ever smash game has to be competitive in the same way melee was most people call melee a beautiful accident or whatever which is fine after all melee was a amazing game but its just redundant and boring if you try to make every succeeding tittle have the same expectations and if the game doesnt meet them to try to use some random battle more as the competitive norm because it just doesn't work and in regards to the pichu remark if someone is actually maining a pichu they already know there at a extreme disadvantage but if they have fun playing as them that's all that matters but getting back to the main matter at hand here I've noticed in every post you made on here(or almost every post) you justfiy your answer by saying something along the lines of "It was in melee and that game was sooooo0oo amazing so that's why smash 4 needs it" and like stated above smash 4 doesn't = Melee and any argument that smash 4 should try to be like melee is the exact same **** that pissed Brawl players and its gonna eventually piss of smash 4 players too. And I've realizes that I ended up lieing about this being short but I dont really care anymore.

 

[PCHU]

Why does freaking everyone jump to the conclusion that everyone who likes Melee wants this to be Melee
It's irritating seeing this negativity towards Melee everywhere when nobody's asking for it to be Melee-esque.
At this point, people just want a smoother/more fun game because while it has improved from Brawl (which, as a Melee Falco/Fox/Marth main, WAS enjoyable), it's retained some issues that tend to make matches add up to the same reads over and over again with minimal variance in actual gameplay; the true combos are still nearly braindead and outside of that rather impressive Peach combo, hardly require any decent execution.
I can dthrow -> fair as DDD or uthrow -> uair as Diddy all day, but the fact that the game doesn't encourage or allow any difference in that has led it to become pretty stale in my eyes.
I'll admit that I was excited when I saw the Mario thing at E3, but it's the same thing we had in Brawl, along with the various utilt strings.
I do want people to have control over what happens to them in the game, but taking away true combos isn't the way; if anything, vectoring was actually a good idea, but they could've just amped up DI to do a bit more so people would have to work that much harder for followups rather than baiting an airdodge/retaliation for the millionth time.

I don't like making changes to a functional system (especially when other people aren't used to it; that's understandable), but seeing all of these people come out of the woodwork and straight up dis things for being arbitrary while merrily skipping past all the other arbitrary bullcrap that's still present in the game (attacks not having complete hitboxes or having misleading hitboxes, some characters just skipping past the ledge on upB, awful general startup/endlag on characters in comparison to others, etc) drives me up the wall.
I don't mean to target anyone specifically, but rather than going "Its not Melee; deal with it ", try to actually elaborate on what makes this game so much better and give valid reasons as to why we shouldn't push for something better than what we've got.
High gravity may not be the best "solution", but would it not be a good idea to look at where the game is lacklustre and try propose ways in which to "fix" it?
Yeah, it's still early, but even when I played Brawl, I saw potential in it from the beginning (it also helped that it had cool and varied newcomers like Snake, but still); I see potential in this, but in patching, not its current form.



But it doesn't matter what I think -- enjoy the game as-is or don't, but try not to come off like an elitist every time you "support" the game.
It stirs up crap and gets us nowhere.

 

[GhettoNinja]

Why does freaking everyone jump to the conclusion that everyone who likes Melee wants this to be Melee
It's irritating seeing this negativity towards Melee everywhere when nobody's asking for it to be Melee-esque.
At this point, people just want a smoother/more fun game because while it has improved from Brawl (which, as a Melee Falco/Fox/Marth main, WAS enjoyable), it's retained some issues that tend to make matches add up to the same reads over and over again with minimal variance in actual gameplay; the true combos are still nearly braindead and outside of that rather impressive Peach combo, hardly require any decent execution.
I can dthrow -> fair as DDD or uthrow -> uair as Diddy all day, but the fact that the game doesn't encourage or allow any difference in that has led it to become pretty stale in my eyes.
I'll admit that I was excited when I saw the Mario thing at E3, but it's the same thing we had in Brawl, along with the various utilt strings.
I do want people to have control over what happens to them in the game, but taking away true combos isn't the way; if anything, vectoring was actually a good idea, but they could've just amped up DI to do a bit more so people would have to work that much harder for followups rather than baiting an airdodge/retaliation for the millionth time.

I don't like making changes to a functional system (especially when other people aren't used to it; that's understandable), but seeing all of these people come out of the woodwork and straight up dis things for being arbitrary while merrily skipping past all the other arbitrary bullcrap that's still present in the game (attacks not having complete hitboxes or having misleading hitboxes, some characters just skipping past the ledge on upB, awful general startup/endlag on characters in comparison to others, etc) drives me up the wall.
I don't mean to target anyone specifically, but rather than going "Its not Melee; deal with it ", try to actually elaborate on what makes this game so much better and give valid reasons as to why we shouldn't push for something better than what we've got.
High gravity may not be the best "solution", but would it not be a good idea to look at where the game is lacklustre and try propose ways in which to "fix" it?
Yeah, it's still early, but even when I played Brawl, I saw potential in it from the beginning (it also helped that it had cool and varied newcomers like Snake, but still); I see potential in this, but in patching, not its current form.



But it doesn't matter what I think -- enjoy the game as-is or don't, but try not to come off like an elitist every time you "support" the game.
It stirs up crap and gets us nowhere.

I apologize if what I said seemed to imply all melee players I know not all of you feel that way and didn't mean to come off that way. As far as bad hitboxes and thats what Nintendo's patches (so far) have been actively fixing.

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

lol

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[Spaghetti Falco]

I recommend making Smash 4 into a better competitive game like Melee since Melee's such a good game



Then pick a better character. It's the same thing as picking a tournament viable character instead of a useless one

1st yeah Melee is a good game but so is every Smash game
Making Smash 4 have high gravity for tournament play throws off everyones hard work thus far practicing with how the game was meant to be played
And 2nd what if he doesn't want to use another character
What if say in theory Dr. Mario was the only character he could play at a competitive level
Mess with the gravity and boom no more tournament play for him

I can also keep speaking up an opinion because I like to discuss it

The intent is to fix 2 of the problems I see in Smash 4. Coincidentally, they also make it more like Melee. Smash 4 can't be just like Melee because it doesn't have enough hit stun and VI isn't as significant as DI

Would you encourage a Pichu player in Melee to keep playing Pichu? Or would you advise them to play as a tournament v[iable character? Isn't this a competitive community? Don't we stand for competing? Players using better characters makes better competition

Characters will at 1st seem low tier with this suggested additional rule if it were to be implemented. That would give you ideal of a low tier character ranking up to tournament viabilityy a possibility. Who knows which characters would survive their physics based up b nerfs?

Yes i would encourage them to play Pichu
What if they become amazing
I prefer to watch high level play with low tier characters
Who wants to watch Fox vs Fox or Marth vs Fox for every match
Oh no someone picked Jiggly gosh exciting
Like come on
Gimme some high level Pichu play ill enjoy the **** outta that
Gimme some Bowser, GDorf, Luigi, and Roy play
It'll be interesting because its rarely seen

 

[Code Bread]

I can also keep speaking up an opinion because I like to discuss it

The intent is to fix 2 of the problems I see in Smash 4. Coincidentally, they also make it more like Melee. Smash 4 can't be just like Melee because it doesn't have enough hit stun and VI isn't as significant as DI

Would you encourage a Pichu player in Melee to keep playing Pichu? Or would you advise them to play as a tournament v[iable character? Isn't this a competitive community? Don't we stand for competing? Players using better characters makes better competition

Characters will at 1st seem low tier with this suggested additional rule if it were to be implemented. That would give you ideal of a low tier character ranking up to tournament viabilityy a possibility. Who knows which characters would survive their physics based up b nerfs?

The problems you see in Smash 4 are not the problems that everyone sees in Smash 4. Also VI is no longer a thing (for the most part. Not sure if it's still there).

You'd have to be some kind of baboon to tell someone that their choice of character is stupid and they're not going anywhere with it, regardless of what game.

I thought this was a smash community. Smash was meant to be a competitive game?

Why are you in a rush to define character tiers? This is a new, and pretty greatly balanced, game. Let people enjoy it, damn.

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

The problems you see in Smash 4 are not the problems that everyone sees in Smash 4. Also VI is no longer a thing (for the most part. Not sure if it's still there).

You'd have to be some kind of baboon to tell someone that their choice of character is stupid and they're not going anywhere with it, regardless of what game.

VI according to the 1.0.4 patch notes is gone and DI is back
And that would be like someone who likes to play as Dan in Street Fighter 4 that they suck unless they play someone else
It's just not something you say to someone

Why change the game when it just came out
Sure maybe in two years try heavy gravity if normal play doesn't work
But let the meta game evolve a little bit first
Just because it's not as technically demanding as Melee doesn't mean it isn't tournament level

 

[PCHU]

The problems you see in Smash 4 are not the problems that everyone sees in Smash 4. Also VI is no longer a thing (for the most part. Not sure if it's still there).

You'd have to be some kind of baboon to tell someone that their choice of character is stupid and they're not going anywhere with it, regardless of what game.

I thought this was a smash community. Smash was meant to be a competitive game?

Why are you in a rush to define character tiers? This is a new, and pretty greatly balanced, game. Let people enjoy it, damn.

I know this doesn't have much to do with that, but as much as I get irritated with how gimmick-driven PM can be, it shows a lot more attention and care in comparison to official Smash stuff.
I mean, look at Wario -- a lot of the stuff he does in his games, he does in PM, and even Ganondorf has been altered to better fit his character while still retaining some of his older moves.
Then there's Zelda's Din's Fire craziness and Lucario's Aura insanity, but that's just a few aspects.
Even without PM's flashy technical junk, it's really cool because even though there are all these character-specific things, every character still has a valid chance against others; I don't feel like any character is truly lacking in tools to put up a decent offense or defense because of how varied everything is (the priority system/hitstun isn't jacked up, too, and the hitboxes, for the most part, make sense).
Smash 4 comes off as rather bland in comparison, and maybe it's because developers aren't able to include all this stuff due to technical issues, but in their pursuit to make the game more accessible, I feel they've made it into what feels like a system of BnBs with little variation.
The expressions are really cool and the models are much improved, but there really isn't much personality; I feel like I've seen it all already, and even my friends say that.

Also, as a former Pichu main, I feel he's kinda underrated, and he's a lot of fun -- it's like controlling a projectile, in a way.
While I wouldn't necessarily expect a Pichu main to get to the "top", I wouldn't discourage them.
If they want to main Pichu, they should understand the work they're going to put in because Melee isn't very well balanced.
Even so, he does have CGs on the spacies and nair combos into itself, so at least he ha some tools to succeed.
He also has the lowest landing lag in the game (2 frames) and his usmash is only slightly worse than Fox's, not to mention he has invincibility on his dsmash for a few frames.

Why change the game when it just came out
Sure maybe in two years try heavy gravity if normal play doesn't work
But let the meta game evolve a little bit first
Just because it's not as technically demanding as Melee doesn't mean it isn't tournament level

The game works, and it works pretty well now that some of the glitches have been patched (DDD's gordo glitch...come on, Nintendo), but some people just don't find it enticing and aren't comfortable with spending $60 on something they're not enjoying.
I can see how it's rude to suggest that the game be changed because some people aren't happy about it, but if it's in ways that make everything better (reasonable changes like higher priority for slower characters so they don't suffer to projectiles, less general attack startup, lower endlag, even PM does this with the heavies and they don't dominate the game), I don't see why people would be opposed to it.
Like I said before, heavy gravity probably isn't the solution, but as it stands, I'm all for a more interesting game because what's there has potential.

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

The game works, and it works pretty well now that some of the glitches have been patched (DDD's gordo glitch...come on, Nintendo), but some people just don't find it enticing and aren't comfortable with spending $60 on something they're not enjoying.
I can see how it's rude to suggest that the game be changed because some people aren't happy about it, but if it's in ways that make everything better (reasonable changes like higher priority for slower characters so they don't suffer to projectiles, less general attack startup, lower endlag, even PM does this with the heavies and they don't dominate the game), I don't see why people would be opposed to it.
Like I said before, heavy gravity probably isn't the solution, but as it stands, I'm all for a more interesting game because what's there has potential.

I think if you're going to do HG then atleast make it a separate event
I'm not against it entirely I just don't like the thought of replacing normal play so early in this games life
It's only been out for like what
Less than month?

 

[Diabolical]

VI according to the 1.0.4 patch notes is gone and DI is back
And that would be like someone who likes to play as Dan in Street Fighter 4 that they suck unless they play someone else
It's just not something you say to someone

Vectoring is in 1.04. Do your research! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMd8Puyhlk&list=UUhQVJzSKe5VfyT-SIMu9Qhg

 

[LightLV]

I'd get behind this if it wasn't such a cheap method of achieving it. It flat-out breaks some characters' moves and doesn't take anything into consideration other than the fact you fall faster.

 

[-MC-]

I played with smooth lander on heavy mode. ****ing amazing. I can't even go back to vanilla smash 4.

Mega man and sonics vanilla recoveries are pretty bad though. I just switched them to one of the custom recoveries and it was perfect.

Yeah, I've found similar workarounds for recoveries that get hammered.
My friends and I have been experimenting with different set ups, including:

Fixed smooth lander+default defense badge+default speed badge
Fixed smooth lander+default defense badge+default speed badge+heavy mode
Fixed smooth lander+default defense badge+default speed badge+lowered damage ratio
Fixed smooth lander+default defense badge+default speed badge+heavy mode+lowered damage ratio

So far though, it's obvious that changing the gravity and/or damage ratio can seriously break some mechanics. At high level play especially I can definitely imagine heavy gravity/smooth lander play becoming a bad choice, but we'll probably never see that anyways. I might still have fun with it though.

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

Vectoring is in 1.04. Do your research! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMd8Puyhlk&list=UUhQVJzSKe5VfyT-SIMu9Qhg

The article on the patch on this here website says otherwise

 

[Diabolical]

The article on the patch on this here website says otherwise

Then the person that wrote the article is misinformed too. You can't argue with Science and results. You can even test it yourself. It's definitely a form of Vectoring and not DI

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Little Mac mains would drop so quickly.

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

Then the person that wrote the article is misinformed too. You can't argue with Science and results. You can even test it yourself. It's deferentially a form of Vectoring and not DI

Coolio thanks for the info
Guess these articles arent as credible as i thought lol
Sorry if i came off as rude

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is a bad idea. Even beyond wrecking character balance (a point that no one seems to deny), it's just arbitrarily favoring the subjective preferences of some players over others. I like my characters floaty; why does it make sense to change settings to make my experience worse so someone else can enjoy it more? That's really a very fundamental unfairness when you get down to it.

It's also insular as can be. Look at it from the perspective of someone who is not in the community joining. Oh, so now I have to learn to play in high gravity with this smooth lander piece of equipment that screws up the frame data? It's just throwing a barrier in front of those people; it's not like other rules situations where they already had the game with all of the stages, custom moves, characters, or whatever. You're actually reworking the engine to something alien to them. That stifles the growth of the community.

The last problem, of course, is that these changes wouldn't even help the game in terms of basic dynamics. Smash 4's current fall speeds and landing lag values are very well selected; the game plays great as is. I remember this suggestion with Brawl; high gravity Brawl played WAY worse than default Brawl, and while I haven't toyed with high gravity 4 beyond it coming up a few times in Master Orders, it seems clear it would be the same since it's just awkward to have characters drop like bricks like that. Smooth lander likewise worsens the game; it doesn't really enhance combos but does make stuff safe on block that shouldn't be. Ironically, that's just a few moves that are currently not dumb that would become dumb but aerial approaches as a whole become WAY worse. Aerials in this game are designed heavily around the idea of the auto-cancel. Higher fall speeds would make radically fewer aerials AC in SHs/FHs and would really limit the aerial approach options of characters. You'd actually make the game slower paced and more defensive until someone went off-stage in which case people would just fail to recover; I really don't see the appeal of this proposal at all.

We should accept smash 4 for what it is, and honestly, that's not hard. Smash 4 is great; I don't really see a need to mess with the engine when the engine is so well built in the first place.

 

[Roukiske]

Normally, I would agree with making anything more melee-like since as someone who came from Melee, I think all we really want is a proper sequel to it. Proper as in fundamentals and basics and such all intact. As a community we grew and despite being such an old game we kept playing and loved the game despite any flaws it has while keeping the spirit alive. So really, is it so much to ask for "Melee 2" for some die hard fans?

However, what we got in Smash 4 is definitely a different game, but (as some may argue) I believe it is a good game. If this game was horrible then ya, I'd be all for it, but its not. I'm sure Third Strike fans wanted their sequel and MvC2 fans wanted their sequel, while many being disappointed. Yes I know we wanted "Melee 2", but if you also look at the game by itself, its not bad. Think of it like playing Street Fighter, but you also like King of Fighters too. Looks the same, plays different, and you hopefully have fun playing both.

As far as changing something like gravity or dmg ratio, I'm against it obviously as I think the game is fine and might alienate new and uninformed players. I'll be playing this game as well as melee so I'll be seeing you all on both battlefields.

 

[Code Bread]

We'll never really get a proper Melee sequel, and trying to make Smash 4 close to it won't help. If anything, Melee diehards should look to PM for that. It wouldn't be the same, but the fans should realize that it's the best they'll get, because Nintendo doesn't care.
Smash 4 is its own game with its own characteristics. Asking it to change so you can comfort a different fanbase while alienating most of its own doesn't really sound like the "solution" to a problem that doesn't even exist.

Seriously, if you like Melee, play Melee.
If you like heavy gravity, play with heavy gravity.
If you like heavy gravity smooth landing, play with heavy gravity smooth landing.
If you don't like Smash 4, don't play Smash 4.

words or something

I agree, Sakurai's visions of characters are sometimes (usually) questionable. This kind of feeds into "play PM if you don't like that stuff." But if you can't dig Sakurai's weird designs and you don't like the way PM feels, sorry man, you're kind of at a loss.
I would argue against the lack of personality in Smash 4. It's not that hard to expect character moves and models to remain for the most part the same throughout the games. You've seen it all after four hours of gameplay, but seeing something new isn't the reason we play smash.
No one here is saying that issues with the game shouldn't be changed. I don't believe anyone here has said anything about slower characters having higher priority or anything of the like. That's a completely different issue than changing the standards for the way the game is played. No one is opposed to fixing issues. The issue is, there is no issue.

 

[PCHU]

I agree, Sakurai's visions of characters are sometimes (usually) questionable. This kind of feeds into "play PM if you don't like that stuff." But if you can't dig Sakurai's weird designs and you don't like the way PM feels, sorry man, you're kind of at a loss.
I would argue against the lack of personality in Smash 4. It's not that hard to expect character moves and models to remain for the most part the same throughout the games. You've seen it all after four hours of gameplay, but seeing something new isn't the reason we play smash.
No one here is saying that issues with the game shouldn't be changed. I don't believe anyone here has said anything about slower characters having higher priority or anything of the like. That's a completely different issue than changing the standards for the way the game is played. No one is opposed to fixing issues. The issue is, there is no issue.

I shouldn'tve brought the rest up because that's more opinion than the anything solid (as of now), but the thing with Sakurai remains.

As far as how PM feels, I freaking love it because it's all around smooth and, like I said, no matter who I pick (even though most of the cast has a simple chaingrab on spacies), I feel like I've got a good chance against my opponent, even if it's a hard counter.
The characters in general are solid as well as varied and intricate, and I absolutely love it.
When I heard a new Smash was coming out, I was really excited, and I kinda hoped to see some of the same individual care and attention put into the characters as I saw in PM, but like I said, outside of characters expressions, slight model changes (some of them are really cool like Marth's), and some moveset changes that I don't agree with in the slightest (why take away Wario's fsmash and make his nair lame), I don't see many new mechanics being introduced.
Shulk is really cool and I like the Monado Arts system, and I guess all the Pit and Palutena stuff is nice (although I never particularly cared for Pit, it's always nice to see series representation in the movesets), but it seems like not much else was done to really make this "out there"; even the sound effects are kinda meh (Ike's sword makes the weirdest noise, I swear).
This isn't necessarily on-topic, but I felt like I should address your point.

I'll give it time, though.
Brawl grew on me and I ended up loving it; maybe this one has more to offer than I think.
I just don't want to not like this.

 

[Code Bread]

I shouldn'tve brought the rest up because that's more opinion than the anything solid (as of now), but the thing with Sakurai remains.

As far as how PM feels, I freaking love it because it's all around smooth and, like I said, no matter who I pick (even though most of the cast has a simple chaingrab on spacies), I feel like I've got a good chance against my opponent, even if it's a hard counter.
The characters in general are solid as well as varied and intricate, and I absolutely love it.
When I heard a new Smash was coming out, I was really excited, and I kinda hoped to see some of the same individual care and attention put into the characters as I saw in PM, but like I said, outside of characters expressions, slight model changes (some of them are really cool like Marth's), and some moveset changes that I don't agree with in the slightest (why take away Wario's fsmash and make his nair lame), I don't see many new mechanics being introduced.
Shulk is really cool and I like the Monado Arts system, and I guess all the Pit and Palutena stuff is nice (although I never particularly cared for Pit, it's always nice to see series representation in the movesets), but it seems like not much else was done to really make this "out there"; even the sound effects are kinda meh (Ike's sword makes the weirdest noise, I swear).
This isn't necessarily on-topic, but I felt like I should address your point.

I'll give it time, though.
Brawl grew on me and I ended up loving it; maybe this one has more to offer than I think.
I just don't want to not like this.

mechanics don't make the game, m8. wait...

What kind of personality were you looking for? imo the characters that are in smash don't actually have super diverse movesets for Sakurai to work with.
I didn't like Brawl at first. Especially the sound effects. It grew on me after a while, if it could grow on you there's no way this game won't.

 

[TheRealGimpt]

The fact that some people try to justify characters that are balanced suddenly becoming too week to use seriously with "Oh well too bad. Just pick a different character" appalls me. So far, from what I can tell, every character in this game is good enough to play against every character. The fact that some people want to change that just to change gameplay to "just so happen" be like Melee makes me think that these people are very new to the competitive side of Smash and other games (Street Fighter) like it. Why do people keep playing SF4? Because the system is good and every character can compete. If you're making it so some characters can't have a chance against the top characters, then you don't know how to make a fighting game good.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Then pick a better character. It's the same thing as picking a tournament viable character instead of a useless one

I absolutely hate responses like this. Pick a better character? Why should my character be unreasonably invalidated in the first place if this becomes the "official" way to play a game by some arbitrary special brawl mechanic? Are you going to tell this to all the Megaman players too? Or the Dedede's? If my character was previously, usable and viable to a decent degree (I think he is, personally), then why should that have to change?

It's just not a stable way of going about this game in a tournament setting. If this is for friendlies or some side event, sure. But this screws a lot of characters really REALLY badly. Especially those with autocancel windows that would make aerials safe (Bowser, Ganon)

My other problem is that this makes the physics heavier and faster but doesn't compensate that with game feel like, at all. Melee felt really smooth and despite being heavy you had a plethora of other movement options and ways to get around. When you take the movement options away, make things heavy and not alter the jump heights to follow, it feels really disjointed and awkward.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I think some characters who have terrible recoveries would become invalidated because the game against them would be just to knock them off stage. (little mac) I think we should leave each game alone (except for brawl which had a few major balance issues.) and play them for what they are. I mean its possible customs might become legal but then adding all these other rules would be too much for everyone. Especially the new players.

(One thing I think would be cool but wont happen is that we have two versions of this game. The vanilla version and the custom version. but not for like a year or two.)

 

[Pyr]

Edit. Never mind this item.

 

[Revan_23]

I think some characters who have terrible recoveries would become invalidated because the game against them would be just to knock them off stage. (little mac) I think we should leave each game alone (except for brawl which had a few major balance issues.) and play them for what they are. I mean its possible customs might become legal but then adding all these other rules would be too much for everyone. Especially the new players.

(One thing I think would be cool but wont happen is that we have two versions of this game. The vanilla version and the custom version. but not for like a year or two.)

Even in vanilla smash 4 little mac will die if he's knocked off the stage. You should fool around in heavy smash to see what its like. I like your idea about having a vanilla version and a custom version by the way. One thing I never get is when people keep saying "it will be hard for new players if we add all of these rules". Are we dealing with 5 year olds? My grandmother can put it on heavy smash and set the stocks to 3 with items off.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Even in vanilla smash 4 little mac will die if he's knocked off the stage. You should fool around in heavy smash to see what its like. I like your idea about having a vanilla version and a custom version by the way. One thing I never get is when people keep saying "it will be hard for new players if we add all of these rules". Are we dealing with 5 year olds? My grandmother can put it on heavy smash and set the stocks to 3 with items off.

Well if we keep adding more things it will probably push the new players away but...if we did have two versions that would be remedied. I think the best thing for now is to lab with these customs and see what we as a community can come up with. Allow the game to develop while we create something with the extra tools sakurai has given us. I mean we were given these things, might as well use them.

 

[Code Bread]

Even in vanilla smash 4 little mac will die if he's knocked off the stage. You should fool around in heavy smash to see what its like. I like your idea about having a vanilla version and a custom version by the way. One thing I never get is when people keep saying "it will be hard for new players if we add all of these rules". Are we dealing with 5 year olds? My grandmother can put it on heavy smash and set the stocks to 3 with items off.

The goal of smash isn't to change the game rules, you doof. The difference comes out in-game. Changing the gravity completely changes the way the game is played, and new players will be completely put off by a community that won't accept them unless they change the way they play the game. How would you feel if you play a game your way (the normal way) for years and suddenly you have to completely change your combos and recovery and such.

 

[chipz]

Game designers at Namco and Nintendo spend countless hours balancing the game around a normal ruleset and now the competitive community is going to F it all up by only playing in a special mode? If this isn't a slap to Sakurai's face I don't know what is.

insular companies need a good slap to the face
this is 2014 and we have no regional matchmaking in a fighting game...

they might be balancing the game, but the game is first and foremost designed as a party game, and until they hire testers who are actually experienced gamers of the particular genre/series its not going to be balanced in the 1v1 setting.

 

[Gatoray]

insular companies need a good slap to the face
this is 2014 and we have no regional matchmaking in a fighting game...

they might be balancing the game, but the game is first and foremost designed as a party game, and until they hire testers who are actually experienced gamers of the particular genre/series its not going to be balanced in the 1v1 setting.

They dedicated a whole online mode to 1v1 on final destination and advertised it as competitive. Since Namco helped make this game (they made Tekken) and since the competitive Smash scene and esports scene has been on an exponential rise, there's no doubt in my mind that they put a large amount of time into competitive balance.

What this whole "heavy gravity" thing is trying to do is make it so that EVERYONE plays the way that only a part of the entire Smash community feels that the game should be played instead of just playing the game the way it was meant to be played and enjoy a new Smash experience. This whole debate is very Melee-biased.

 

[chipz]

They dedicated a whole online mode to 1v1 on final destination and advertised it as competitive. Since Namco helped make this game (they made Tekken) and since the competitive Smash scene and esports scene has been on an exponential rise, there's no doubt in my mind that they put a large amount of time into competitive balance.

What this whole "heavy gravity" thing is trying to do is make it so that EVERYONE plays the way that only a part of the entire Smash community feels that the game should be played instead of just playing the game the way it was meant to be played and enjoy a new Smash experience. This whole debate is very Melee-biased.

that's exactly it though, final destination is very biased towards certain characters. If they had a battlefield type omega thing then maybe id see your point, but they don't even let you turn off stage hazards on some of the levels. How was it advertised as competitive? the E3 thing? the one where items were on for the vast majority of the matches? if you think the game had competitive play as the priority you're living in a dream world (as the king, apparently)

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's more geared for competitive play by default simply by having For Glory and the inclusion of even FD stages for everything.

Now how EFFICIENTLY it's geared for it is questionable, but it is by design aiming to be competitive moreso than previous entries in the series simply through this.