Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[Yuna]

How many times must I say this:
None of the Special Brawls can be used. Because they're just mode where one single (or more) aspect of the game is arbitrarily changed. Everything is changed according to that single aspect.

A lot of things will this get royally screwed up by it. In Heavy Brawl, certain characters' 2nd jumps get royally screwed over, for example. In Lightning Brawl or whatever it's called, not only is lag lessened, so are starting frames.

All 3-frame Nairs will suddenly be 1 frame.

None of the Special Brawls can possibly be used for Competitive play. Accept it.

Lifted from the Lightning Brawl-thread:
Because it makes everything faster. Startup frames, lag, everything. Suddenly, you have everyone having 1-frame attacks and overpowered smashes that come out in 2-3 frames (Marth's tipper after only 3 frames? Yes, please!).

The window for punishing is much smaller since everything is faster. You can just spam out another attack to make your first one safe. That or spotdodge, I guess. Shielding would also be much harder since everything has less startup now so you'll find yourself shieldcamping a lot anytime the opponent is around. Fast throws and moves will be overpowered since they won't be DI-able on pure reaction anymore.

A lot of things get screwed up by Lightning Mode.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

How many times must I say this:
None of the Special Brawls can be used. Because they're just mode where one single (or more) aspect of the game is arbitrarily changed. Everything is changed according to that single aspect.

A lot of things will this get royally screwed up by it. In Heavy Brawl, certain characters' 2nd jumps get royally screwed over, for example. In Lightning Brawl or whatever it's called, not only is lag lessened, so are starting frames.

All 3-frame Nairs will suddenly be 1 frame.

None of the Special Brawls can possibly be used for Competitive play. Accept it.

Not even Angled Brawl?

 

[Scar]

Melee's days are over now. Stop trying to live in the past. Move on.

While I would usually love to kick anyone saying these exact words (since this phrase has become a mantra for bitter failures of Melee players) I think there is some value in them in this particular debate.

I'm not a pro, but like whatever. I know my stuff. It's my opinion that heavy Brawl appeals to players because it's much more familiar, much more like Melee. But just bringing back the weights of characters does not make the game more competitive or better in any way. In my opinion it actually makes things worse, since the increase in gravity GREATLY reduces offstage options.

Recovery after an attempt to edgeguard aggressively becomes nearly impossible. I think it's important to realize that Brawl is its own game, and it has its own flaws and features. It would be unfair, however, to set heavy Brawl as any sort of standard, since it clearly has drawbacks and very few advantages.

I think it's a bad idea, and an attempt to "live in the past." Playing Melee and urging people to do the same however is not living in the past.

Melee's days are not over. The game is not the past. Melee is still alive, and many/most old Melee players who started strong with Brawl have realized that Brawl has no potential to become the competitive masterpiece that Melee was and still is.

Unfortunately the community will split, and that makes me sad. But Melee is not over. It is for a lot of people, though.

 

[cobaltblue]

How many times must I say this:
None of the Special Brawls can be used. Because they're just mode where one single (or more) aspect of the game is arbitrarily changed. Everything is changed according to that single aspect.

A lot of things will this get royally screwed up by it. In Heavy Brawl, certain characters' 2nd jumps get royally screwed over, for example. In Lightning Brawl or whatever it's called, not only is lag lessened, so are starting frames.

All 3-frame Nairs will suddenly be 1 frame.

None of the Special Brawls can possibly be used for Competitive play. Accept it.

Lifted from the Lightning Brawl-thread:
Because it makes everything faster. Startup frames, lag, everything. Suddenly, you have everyone having 1-frame attacks and overpowered smashes that come out in 2-3 frames (Marth's tipper after only 3 frames? Yes, please!).

The window for punishing is much smaller since everything is faster. You can just spam out another attack to make your first one safe. That or spotdodge, I guess. Shielding would also be much harder since everything has less startup now so you'll find yourself shieldcamping a lot anytime the opponent is around. Fast throws and moves will be overpowered since they won't be DI-able on pure reaction anymore.

A lot of things get screwed up by Lightning Mode.

If your gonna start sounding like the nubs you hate so much, atleast get the modes correct.

Or you know, give a well thought out opinion to be expected from a director.

 

[Yuna]

If your gonna start sounding like the nubs you hate so much, atleast get the modes correct.

Or you know, give a well thought out opinion to be expected from a director.

It's a well-though out opinion, as proven by the fact that you haven't found a single argument to counter-argue it and instead just say "You suck".

And yes, I might not have the names right but that's besides the point if you can't refute my arguments. Imbalanced game, screwed up physics, take your pick.

 

[masterbraz]

How many times must I say this:
None of the Special Brawls can be used. Because they're just mode where one single (or more) aspect of the game is arbitrarily changed. Everything is changed according to that single aspect.

A lot of things will this get royally screwed up by it. In Heavy Brawl, certain characters' 2nd jumps get royally screwed over, for example. In Lightning Brawl or whatever it's called, not only is lag lessened, so are starting frames.

All 3-frame Nairs will suddenly be 1 frame.

None of the Special Brawls can possibly be used for Competitive play. Accept it.

Lifted from the Lightning Brawl-thread:
Because it makes everything faster. Startup frames, lag, everything. Suddenly, you have everyone having 1-frame attacks and overpowered smashes that come out in 2-3 frames (Marth's tipper after only 3 frames? Yes, please!).

The window for punishing is much smaller since everything is faster. You can just spam out another attack to make your first one safe. That or spotdodge, I guess. Shielding would also be much harder since everything has less startup now so you'll find yourself shieldcamping a lot anytime the opponent is around. Fast throws and moves will be overpowered since they won't be DI-able on pure reaction anymore.

A lot of things get screwed up by Lightning Mode.

does heavy brawl affect the frames though? I didn't think it did. And if it does, i doesn't seem to be as broken as lightning brawl is (by looking at your evidence.) If frames are changed, why can't we just adapt? I'm not saying we should heavy brawl, i just think we need to really evaluate it.

 

[Corigames]

this could be apleid to you, you are following the old regime,

I'm playing both thank you very much, and have, on several occasions, said that I'm going to become the BEST brawl player in the world.

I follow no one. I take no sides. I throw out logic and kick impossibility to the curb. It is the Corey way.

 

[Ken2]

The heavy thing might work. But the fact is, Brawl will never be like Melee, even with the gravity. This does not fix all the other things that were done to Brawl. No wavedashing, L canceling, no dash dancing, all the nerfed characers, etc.

Here is a pro's opinion: Unless they find exploits later in the games life, like we did (wavedashing, DI'ing, etc.) back in melee, this game will not be played by most top melee players at the same level melee was played, thus making tournaments less intense.

I might just keep playing this new game for fun with my close friends every now and then. But as far as tourney lvl play is concerned, it's over for me, at least for a long while.

I say if your gonna play the game, enjoy it for what it is. Don't try to make it into something it is not. If your gonna do that, just go back to playing Melee. You'll be better off for it.

Btw: A big advantage to having fast falling was that you could SHUFFLE moves like Fox's sex kick (Nair). Is it possible to shuffle moves with this gravity thing on? If not, fast falling may not be that big of a use.

 

[Megaman X]

So I've been messing around with Heavy Brawl. Sonic in particular. A few interesting things have come to my attention.

1) Yeah. UpB is ridiculously craptastic as a recovery now. I'm over it.

2) Spring is now an incredible combo tool. Let me explain. Because Sonic recovers so quickly from his UpB, the spring was used in normal brawls as a quick on-reaction finisher as someone was floating down from above. This explicit function (UpB -> UpA/Bair) has been lost. However, a new, possibly more useful function has emerged. You can still UpB -> Uair, only now, if you do it from the ground, you immediately land back on the spring and are propelled higher, able to do another Uair. What's more, since you fall faster, you can get more uses out of the spring before it disappears. You can spring above an aerial opponent, dair them and yourself into the spring, and then get a free hit while they bounce up stunned. If you need even more height afterward, you can land, jump on the spring, jump, and then upB again! THIS IS AMAZING. It almost makes me want to believe that the game was originally built on the "Heavy" physics and then switched at the last minute...

Not that LOL THIS MEANS HEAVY = STANDARD LUL... Unfortunately I think this can never be the case simply because ... well ... Heavy Brawl, as nice as it may make the game, will never be normal mode. Thus will not be accepted by 99% of the population.

 

[Yoshistar64]

I say if your gonna play the game, enjoy it for what it is. Don't try to make it into something it is not. If your gonna do that, just go back to playing Melee. You'll be better off for it.

I say, the game can be played however the player wants. I've said this a few times. Brawl CAN be a competitive game if we want it to, and if we try. Melee could have stayed casual for the whole 7-8 years, I wouldn't care.

 

[Scar]

Brawl CAN be a competitive game if we want it to, and if we try.

Define competitive. That's the problem here IMO.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Define competitive. That's the problem here IMO.

NO ITEMS
FOX ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION

...right? Isn't that the only way Smash has any chance of being an acceptable competitive game?

(except for the Fox Only part, I just had to say the whole thing)

 

[Ja]

I haven't read the whole thread for obvious reasons, and I have two questions:
1. Did a pro comment on HG mode? If so link?
2. Did m2k really quit brawl and go back to melee? If so when, and link?

 

[Empy]

Hmm.. I don't like it because I won't be able to play Ike. He would go from low in the middle to low in the bottom tier I think. What the hell do I do without my shff'd nairs and overall my shorthop against Wolf etc?

Also, this might be just me, but wouldn't this be something that had to have been agreed on long ago for it to work? When people resist against it this much still, it probably would take too long to have agreed on and everyone will be used to his regular Brawl already.

 

[Yuna]

This thread had been dead for almost a month. Why did you (Ryzol) feel a need to bring it back?

Yes, many "pros" have commented on this. And they/we (if I'm actually good enough to be considered a "pro") were in agreement. A resounding:
No

 

[Lord Knight]

I'm playing both thank you very much, and have, on several occasions, said that I'm going to become the BEST brawl player in the world.

I follow no one. I take no sides. I throw out logic and kick impossibility to the curb. It is the Corey way.

So you're only going to be very slightly better than everyone else?

 

[J18]

i don't think heavy brawl does certain characters justice.
sonic's up B is one of the best recoveries in the game. in heavy brawl, his up B is virtually useless for recovery.

 

[BEES]

It might be made up for with increased attack power. He would have a much easier time killing opponents, since they would fall fast enough for him to make combos.

 

[Corigames]

So you're only going to be very slightly better than everyone else?

With all my strength and spam.

 

[Team Giza]

Yes it could be played in tournaments no doubt. But its the whole odd rule thing that is gonna make it never become the standard for brawl tournaments. And it shouldn't be made into the main kind of tournaments.

It really is a totally different game. And people are going to want to play the normal brawl more since its more of the way the game was meant to be. Personally I like heavy gravity more than normal brawl... fact of fact I like it more than melee. It has all the qualities to be played in a competitive setting, there is nothing wrong with the mode. But the normal game should be the standard before some special brawl mode.

i don't think heavy brawl does certain characters justice.
sonic's up B is one of the best recoveries in the game. in heavy brawl, his up B is virtually useless for recovery.

Heavy gravity makes him a different character but he is by no means bad. I main Sonic in heavy gravity. His up+B has tons of uses in heavy brawl, sure it isn't good for recovering for the most part but he still has his side+B jump to recover and he can even throw in a homing attack if someone is trying to edgeguard him. He has a wall jump he can use and after it the spring will usually get him back up. Yes, he can be gimped because of his up+B not giving him height. But he gains a lot from the higher gravity. His up+B can be used a lot more in heavy and its great for edgeguarding a grip of characters.

Some characters just become different, it doesn't mean they suck now or anything.

 

[Doyoudigworms]

Brawl is a NEW GAME and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT

You ruined the integrity of your post with that very statement. I don't see Brawl ever switching to high gravity mode, I don't think it needs to do so. But this game is far from immaculate, new or old there are very many subjective things that create a horrible imbalance.

Fighting games will never be perfect, they will always have subjective balance and have character segregation. Camping in any other video game that spawns competition and will always be evident, but it creates a weird divide for SSBB, and it makes characters who are better at spamming rather then combat climb up the tier ranks, when it should be the opposite.

 

[Wind Owl]

I haven't read the whole thread for obvious reasons, and I have two questions:
1. Did a pro comment on HG mode? If so link?
2. Did m2k really quit brawl and go back to melee? If so when, and link?

I'd like to know this as well.

 

[Grunt]

Making it heavy will solve nothing. it doesn't make recovering harder, comboing easier, or anything like that. it's just heavier.

 

[Team Giza]

Making it heavy will solve nothing. it doesn't make recovering harder, comboing easier, or anything like that. it's just heavier.

It makes most characters have safer approaches and pressure games.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Whatever comes first, is fine with me -

1.In a couple months/years everyone will finally adapt to Brawl. People will find ways around camping, and everyone will stop trying to make Brawl Melee 2.0. Everyone will develop their own techniques/approaches with their character. Basically, Brawl stays the same, and Melee stays the same. Each game is different, have their ways of playing.

2. The idea presented here is used, and born into tournament rules. Along with the USB gecko thing (if it works out). I'm fine with your idea, but i'll only adapt to it if it becomes a tourney standard.

 

[blade_master99]

While you guys argue over that and determine what's best, I think I'll go play Brawl now.

A long time ago, I always thought that competitions were meant to determine who was best at playing it, but after Melee, I found out it's who's better at figuring out combos, glitches, and exploiting them perfectly. >.> I'd rather just play for fun, and play other people once in a while.

dude... stfu

 

[Vulcan55]

1.In a couple months/years everyone will finally adapt to Brawl. People will find ways around camping, and everyone will stop trying to make Brawl Melee 2.0. Everyone will develop their own techniques/approaches with their character. Basically, Brawl stays the same, and Melee stays the same. Each game is different, have their ways of playing.

exactly what I think is going to happen.
The same thing happened to Halo 3. People complained how much different it was from Halo 2, ("worse" apparently) but now, hardly any of that exists anymore.

 

[da K.I.D.]

A lot of characters get gimped, most affected are their aerials and recovery. More characters have advantages through fast-falling, and I find that it balances the game in a wrong way.

As you will know, anyone is free to play the game however they please. The point is that competitive scenes will not change to Heavy Brawl so that some characters are gimped and overall gameplay style is changed. If you wish to play Heavy Brawl for the rest of your career, no one is stopping you.
But I doubt you will change the whole competitive scene, heck, SWF is such a small part of the worldwide Smash community that trying to change something like this will only make a ripple.

Quoted for truth, this whole thread just got burned.

while nobody will stop you from playing heavy brawl, i think you are going to be hard-pressed to get such a large group of ppl to conform to your ideals. good luck with trying but i dont think that itll work

 

[Rhubarbo]

Whatever comes first, is fine with me -

1.In a couple months/years everyone will finally adapt to Brawl. People will find ways around camping, and everyone will stop trying to make Brawl Melee 2.0. Everyone will develop their own techniques/approaches with their character. Basically, Brawl stays the same, and Melee stays the same. Each game is different, have their ways of playing.

Everyone will NOT adapt to Brawl. There is no possible method to find a way around camping. The only way around it would be if there is some awkward glitch that changes the physics engine. There is also no possible technique that can remove auto sweet-spotting, the broken airdodge, increase hitstun, shieldstun, and DI.

You see, the way Brawl was designed was to cater to the newer audience. If you look at ALL of the changes, from the slower speed, to the lack of combos, and to the broken airdodge, it's all to make it easier for newbies. And, it's those people that are usually defending the game. I KNOW that there are a few Melee vets that prefer Brawl, and I know that there are some people that just got introduced to copetitive Smash that prefer Melee. However, the majority of the newer members to the community here at Smashboards tend to defend Brawl obviously the reason being that they were never here when Melee was in it's prime.

Anyways, my thought on Heavy Brawl is that it should definitely go into consideration. When most people realize that Brawl is broken, they will try to find alternative way to play. I think that HB should even be considered by the Back Room. Anyhow, I doubt it will happen because many people have already got used to the standard Brawl strategies.

 

[br4n]

lol i thought this subject was dead. heavy brawl is not going to work.

 

[Toadster5]

Brawl is a joke. It was designed to be a big joke.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Some characters (Pit, Sonic, Dedede, more) are disadvantaged.
I don't support this. I'd stick with normal Brawl.
People are being melodramatic over Brawl's physics.

 

[Team Giza]

Sonic and Dedede at a disadvantage? Are we playing the same high gravity? I am supposing you are just looking at these characters recoveries.

Dedede's recovery might be gimped (height wise) but he gains a lot too. His air combos and edgeguard set ups are much more effective in heavy gravity.His shff nair is great, as well as his fullhop dair which a lot less awkward then his double jump dair in normal brawl to get the autocancel. His f+tilt also becomes more effective at stopping more characters new approach methods. His waddles can stop more characters in there tracks in this mode too. His chainthrow still works too.

As for Sonic, yes, his recovery is hurt a lot. But his shff dair is very effective now. His knockback on many of his moves keep people closer to the ground and allows him to set up for a sort of tech chasing game. His up+B actually has some mad uses both for edgeguarding for for just dropping springs in peoples faces when they try to do certain combos and approaches. Even though Sonic has a injured recovery he is still a good character in heavy gravity.

As for Pit. His recovery takes longer to start going up which does hurt him. His arrows are still good. His auto-cancel shorthop nair, though kinda difficult to get used to doing, is very effective. I haven't played much of him so I'm not too sure, but he still seems like a decent character.

I think its best not to just look at the changes made to the character from normal brawl because it seems to make people focus on the negatives. I know I first tried heavy and thought it was stupid cause it appeared to mess up so many characters. But when I started playing it more I realized if you approach playing those characters in a completely different way they are still good. Try approaching heavy gravity brawl as a brand new game.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

A lot of characters that rely on auto-canceled aerials will be hampered in heavy brawl because they will land too soon to complete the move.

 

[Team Giza]

A lot of characters that rely on auto-canceled aerials will be hampered in heavy brawl because they will land too soon to complete the move.

Please name some of these characters so I can name some of the good qualities they gain to make up for it.

I will admit that character balance changes and in some ways the game overall might be less balanced. But there is enough characters that are good in it for it to be played competitively and not just turn into a spamming of 5-7 characters from what I have seen. It would be ashame to never try this out just because the balance is different from brawl.

 

[Truce]

I'll admit that I haven't tried Heavy Brawl before, but won't accepting a radical change in physics as normal entirely screw with the built in character balance? Smash developers always try to balance characters evenly under the game's normal conditions, and Brawl supposedly has improved that innate balance. Going back to Melee the best one can is fighting an improvement of the game.

Is it legit to screw with in-game physics to try and de-evolve to Melee? I'm not feelin' that.

 

[Team Giza]

Whats with all this Heavy gravity brawl being melee? It is very different. Perhaps more like melee than brawl but still not too melee. Secondly, the change really doesn't mess with character balance that much. You have to try it out longer and learn to play characters. A lot of characters change the ways they fight quite a bit and from what I have seen they all become more unique and interesting characters from it. I cannot really think of characters who are bad in heavy... except maybe Ganondorf... and thats not really anything new in brawl. Even Ganondorf gets some unique buffs in heavy too, though he does get nerfed down in some ways. From what I have seen heavy gravity is more balanced than normal brawl...

note: There are some characters I havent tested too much. Namely Peach, Sheik, Zelda, Pokemon Trainer and Fox.

 

[Team Giza]

Sorry about the double post but I’m going back to respond to stuff.

However, in Heavy Brawl, let's just take Marth vs. Sonic. It is almost impossible for Sonic to win. His recovery is an abortion waiting to happen, and his attacks can't do ****. Don't give me the "Oohh, Sonic sucks anyways so it doesn't matter" argument.

BZZT. Huh? I will admit, this is a hard match up for Sonic to win but its not nearly as bad as you make it seem. Marth can really take advantage against Sonic's recovery, but you seem to be underestimating Sonic's edgeguarding abilities against Marth. Sonic can really a do a number against Marth's recovery. Sonic's spring and instant ledgehog tactics can really help stop a Marth. That and Sonic's excellent ledgehop abilities make it so he actually does a pretty amazing job at edgeguarding Marth.

Though a lot of the spring tactics that Sonic can apply to characters on stage are much less effective against Marth then they are against other characters and the fact that Marth is harder to combo and pressure. This is what really makes it a touch match up for Sonic, but he still has a lot of decent hit and run tactics he can focus on to win. It is not nearly as bad of a match up as you make it seem.

What do I care about follow up or stringing hits together? As the heaviest dump in the game, and as one of its hardest hitters, how wouldn't a single blow bob and weavefest not play into my hands, assuming I have the talent to approach through jerry blow R.O.B/Snake/Pit/etc's hail of fire?

Why would I want to make myself combo-able when I enjoy a blow by blow advantage, and can eat plenty of attacks in relieve safety just to train the guy and set him up for a knockout, not to mention having the suicide option to always hang over their head when they're lingering dangerously close to the edge.

I dont think this really got a great answer. I have a very simple answer to this. Heavy gravity benefits you as a Bowser player because his attacks send people at a lower trajectory. This actually sets them up in a way for you to abuse your off edge abilities because the opponents isn't going to have the options to airdodge most of Bowser's moves. It also makes most of Bowser's horizontal KOs a lot more effective. These are really simple differences, but I hope this shows how your character gains stuff from the mode.

---

To all those playing the mode and know a bit about Olimar, what are the changes he goes through for heavy? I don't play him too much in normal or heavy brawl but I cannot seem to tell the difference between him in these settings... which makes me think he is being hit the hardest from the change from normal to heavy. Can people tell me what he gains and loses in heavy?

 

[S.P.I.C. TOM]

I will give this a shot at my next tourney good **** to the people who found it.

 

[Team Giza]

I know these aren't great... but I thought we needed some heavy gravity matches up in this thread. Here are 3 videos of me and my friend trying to play it up. Enjoy if you can.

Game&Watch vs Jigglypuff

Falco vs G&W

G&W vs Ness

edit: There is more up now but I dont feel like linking them.