Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
I love how you completely overlooked my point...so since you're so oblivious, I'll say it louder...
/discussion
Obviously that Vv2 scrubbing up this thread >_>
I'm assuming you mean play like THIS online.
Hitstun, really? So something that puts the offensive player in the advantage position makes a game more competitive? It's nonsense. Combo's are just a brainwashing that has been served to you, combos in fighting games can be put in or disposed of and the competition still says the same because the opponent has the same options you do.
Competitive =/= competition.
It's skillful of someone to start to combo someone else. What combo they start doesn't really matter, as it still takes some degree of skill. You can memorize how to Ken Combo all you want, that doesn't mean you'll be skillful enough to read your opponents DI correctly every time. Being able to DI out of any escapable combo in Melee is more skillful than simply airdodging in Brawl.www.google.com define:skillful said:
As far as combos being "training wheels for hitting the opponent", no one can really argue that. Especially at higher percentages. In Melee, Captain Falcon will uair Marth. The uair sends Marth 3/4th's the way across Final Destination. Falcon Still has enough time to run there, jump, and knee Marth, while Marth is still in hitstun. It's very easy. The combo itself is pretty skill-less, but. Who cares? You probably out-smarted Marth, were able to get the uair in, and there, you kneed him for being stupid. Sucks for him, really. Anyone that makes a mistake should be punished, and should have no say in the matter. It was your fault for not being smarter than your opponent at that moment. Cry more.
Yeah, airdodging is punishable. So what? If I punched you in the face with a force of say...(work with me here, we're going to pretend this is a very strong, very solid hit to your skull) 80F (F=force, lewl), would you be able to punch me right back? Most likely not, unless you had a helmet on. The point is, no one should be able to airdodge or attack RIGHT after getting hit with an attack. It's a stupid concept on it's own.
As I said before, it takes more skill to DI out of a combo than it does to airdodge out of one.
I don't quite understand your point in your first sentence. I'd like to be rewarded for my ability to start a combo, continue a combo, and finish a combo. It feels rewarding. Sometimes it's flashy, and makes the crowed cheer and go crazy. It's an amazing feeling. Especially when it's a match-winning combo. Comparing the sense of accomplishment of getting a combo off in Melee, to farming gold or honor or raiding (which is totally easy mode) in WoW (I play WoW consistently and constantly) is kinda dumb. It's a sense of accomplishment, but. It feels completely different. Trust me. :]
Oh well I hope it works online I would do so good
I don't recall ever saying that it did, I'm also not going to look for the thread. It has been said that putting the offensive player in the advantage position make the game competitive. Which is wrong.
There was no reason to argue with it, so I'm not obligated to comment on it.
Combos both take skill and hitstun. However the absence of hitstun does not take away any of the skill, it just takes away from the term "combo." Comparitively, follow ups in Brawl have to be much more accurate because Brawl has multiple responses available to the opponent. Follow ups in Brawl also require more precise or accurate timing than other follow ups, if you could both complete the same combo would that make the other player better? No, it would make them the same because without input from the other player it becomes a task. Can you complete the task or can you not? The result of this is not dependant on opposition and therefore uncompetitive.
A combo starts with one hit. Are you trying to tell me that Melee is better because you have to hit the opponent? Also, if you think that avoiding moves in Brawl is down to simply air dodging you are mistaken. Imagine MK's tornado, you do not air dodge to escape being stuck in the tornado, you DI. There are times where an air dodge is better suited than DI. For example when he tries to repeatedly uair you, then it would be best to air dodge it. For his down tilt pokes, you perfect shield to punish it. Knowing when and how to use each option along with having the skill to avoid the move with it and the mindgames to keep from being predicted or punished for it is a good thing.
Being hit by Captain Falcon's uair is being stupid? I didn't know that it was against normal standards to be hit by a move in a fighting game. I assure you that Marth got punished for leaving himself open, he got punished with a uair. Think about MK's Infinite Dimensional Cape, it's banned, yet he is only punishing you for letting him get ahead of you and far away enough to use his Dimensional Cape. The more the opponent practices the longer he gets to stay in another dimension. Now do you see why that train of thought is flawed? This easy punishment thing is just your personal taste and if you want that it doesn't really matter to me, but I'm tired of Melee fans riding each other and living in their little world where Melee is the best game ever and the game after it is trash because it didn't have what they wanted from Melee. (Not you in particular.)
It matters because air dodging is not a fool proof plan that gets you away from anything, in fact, I've seen Ike mains use it as an excuse to punish them harder for predicting the opponent trying to avoid their first move. So as long as the opponent can screw you over by playing better than you, it makes the game more competitive. Also, characters in Brawl can not punish you for landing a move, other than a few examples such as punishing MK's tornado after DI'ing out of it, of all things.
In Brawl there is tech-chasing as well, I've even seen a chase-tech work before. As you've stated, but I wanted to make it clear, there is DI-reading in Brawl. Why would the games floatiness take away from DI-reading? If anything it would make it better because characters spend more time in the air. Hitboxes you still have to be careful with although, I'll have to give you the point that it indeed does take more skill to hit with a smaller attack.
They both barely take any skill at all, it could be argued that timing invincibility frames takes more skill than moving away from the opponent. Now, out of the topic at hand and into a the same old Brawl vs. Melee debate.
What you said is a personal preference and personally, I like my defensive options.
It doesn't seem to be that way with Brawl, Melee fans are notorious for disrespecting people who play Brawl, maybe not you, because you've done a fine job in handling my arguement maturely when I can rarely say the same for other people, including myself at some points in this thread.
I'd have to agree that Brawl+ just looks like a super lame version of Brawl where they try to take things from Melee and it turns out bad. Admittedly, I've never played Brawl+.
I already went over the combos thing. Hitstun isn't needed to put the player into a bad position, they are put into a bad position just by being near you while you are attacking and to a better point, when they are mindgamed into being at a bad position. There is a punishment for a successful approach, it's called hitting the opponent. Now that you did that, you think they can run away and make it hard to approach after you hit them? It can't happen, after being hit they can't make it hard for you to approach any more until they retain a good distance from you. Not that making it hard to approach was ever a bad thing. Dude, camping is only good for the couple of seconds you can hold someone off with it and that's fine. Characters with projectiles that make it possible to camp, I'll just go for the best one as an example. Do you honestly think that Falco's lasers will hold someone off for more than 3 seconds, even with using the AT's for it? Also, every example you're using assumes that the approach fails every time. The entire example you're giving is just wrong, go watch a match, it doesn't happen. Also, the strongest but fastest move to punish for approaching. Are you joking?
That sucks a lot, I hate it when stuff like that happens.
Actually, I think watching campy Snakes is really amusing. Even then he can only hold people off for a bit. Then there's ROB who has to charge both of his projectiles, the max he can do is two hits on you before you get to him and he uses it for edge and anti edgeguarding anyway, Pit can camp, but his projectile has techniques and if you think firing it forwards will hold people back. It's just wrong. Then there's Falco who I already explained. Pretty much, the idea that people just camp in Brawl is just wrong, as I've already explained. At core, camping doesn't even have to be bad. Other characters have projectiles that they use to approach, which ain't bad. There's your opinion now, and I assure you that people do indeed have fun playing Brawl. If you don't, that's OK with me, but you arn't going to convince anyone that it's boring by telling them it. The game doesn't punish you for anything, your opponent punishes you for it, if you get hit after hitting your opponent, it's for being "stupid" as you said earlier.
I can't even tell what you're describing in this paragraph past the first sentance. Maybe it's because both Melee and Brawl share it, oh my. Haha, I'm also not taking your word for the last sentance. The last paragraph sounds like both Brawl and Melee only Melee wouldn't have as much player opposition.
You can if both opponents have the code(s) on, just be prepared for desyncs due to the amount of button presses the game will have to transfer over online.
I numbered each of your statements so I can nitpick them individually.
1. I didn't mean for my statement to be misinterpreted that way. I meant to refer to the notion that hitstun made a game more competitive, which honestly I can't remember who stated it. I'm not even completely sure if anyone stated it for that matter.
You obviously misunderstood what he was saying....i ll simplify it for you...a game does not increase in competition based on whether combo's exist...but well go with what you said...there is hitstun in brawl its just small enough to stop combo's almost like the designers did it on purpose some would say or wait....
DI'ing isn't stopping the opponent it merely brings you to a state where the same attack will not hit you or you won't fly in quite the predicted distance or direction. its not a counter or a block your in no way stopping the combo your merely placating the damage (since i doubt you know the word 'placate' and i am trying to make this a simple for you as possible "cause to be more favorably inclined" is what it means) in combat you only ever wish to take action that gives you advantage and any action which merely returns you to a neutral state is a waste. point is....DI' still leaves you exposed it doesn't "stop" anything
/agree. but the point of the matter is you wish to play brawl like melee do you not?
Humor me name another
Brawl really isn't that campy you just have to use spacing efficiently there are some characters that are defensive and some that are offensive like all games. brawl merely forces a more hit and run approach to offense and more baiting .i didn't play MvC2 but i know for a fact that everything in tekken can be blocked or reversed. the ability to catch up at any damage makes brawl a better game everyone likes a comeback kid watch rocky you'll understand its more impressive to be losing and come back from the brink then to wipe your opponent....
Thats my point....so /agreeMaikeru17 said:
I mean that other games out class it when it comes to combos and the fighting games both have scripted combos as well as combos adjusted through placement. I can't deny what you said about throwing 82% of freedoms out the window because I really don't know what to argue about. I'd imagine that it would lead us right back to square 1 and you just pulled out a statistic without explaining where the statistic came from. Sorry to be slow on what you're saying, but I really don't get the example you provided still.
2. I don't mind it being even, I just get tired of people thinking Brawl is un skill based because it lacks combos.
k awesome, least you're being cool about it.I mean that other games out class it when it comes to combos and the fighting games both have scripted combos as well as combos adjusted through placement. I can't deny what you said about throwing 82% of freedoms out the window because I really don't know what to argue about. I'd imagine that it would lead us right back to square 1 and you just pulled out a statistic without explaining where the statistic came from. Sorry to be slow on what you're saying, but I really don't get the example you provided still.
Mix-ups are not the only thing in Brawl, there are tech chases, primarily they are found in Ganondorf, Dedede, Ike, Game and Watch, Snake, Diddy, and Donkey, maybe Falco. At least they have the most effective ones, and there is very much a reason to tech in Brawl, to avoid stage spiking,to avoid follow ups that would hit you otherwise and to recover as Snake. Brawl doesn't have a lot of true combos, I know. However, Brawl has tons of edgeguarding, more than in Melee. Recoveries that go farther mean many more chances to screw them up, and it is very much beneficial.
Sadly, I live far away from NY and have a router that rejects Nintendo products for some reason, I tried the USB connector thing too and it still won't work for some reason.
Sorry to reply so late, but all I've had to post on for a while was my cellphone, which is actually faster than my computer, however, it's really hard to type on it, it doesn't show the entire text box so I can't see what I'm doing and it frequently double posts.
Wario is the closest thing to Melee Captain Falcon, (well, besides the Captain himself) so I thought it would be fitting. Also, recognize the song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIJ4pGrahwY
Then there's Captain Falcon, this one is really good too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwjP3aPSQF0
2. I don't mind it being even, I just get tired of people thinking Brawl is un skill based because it lacks combos.
4/5. It said something like combos could be escaped through air-dodge, although if that was true it wouldn't be a combo. I think characters had like 21 assuming no multi-purpose moves or zair or something from what I remember.
6. That's fine, I have to admit that I like to watch them, but the ones in Smash 64 were more fun to watch for me, that might be because Isai is the only Smash 64 player I ever look at, I looked at Jigglymaster once too. Actually, going by personal experience as well as videos and character threads. Everything is always planned, even if you only think one move ahead at most like I do. I play mostly reactantly, so I don't have much a place to say this.
You nor Nox look like one, I actually don't mind arguing with either of you at all, when typically I dislike being in arguements. I get in them all the time though, I just can't help it.
Thats just not very nice at all....name calling honestly....
I can't be they only one that sees irony in making a reply about how your going to reply....
Kirby sucked in Melee because of ******** attack properties. Those are gone in Brawl. But to the point, Brawl+ isn't about altering characters (for now). It's about adding depth to the game.
I noticed the thing about the stage combos, I see them a lot, primarily with the Hyrule Tower and the Hyrule Tornado.
I tried looking at the 1st and last page of that thread and I didn't find anything that I needed. Wow, three hours, I better get some cheetos, it's going to be a long time at my laptop.
Holy ****, nice, you tore him up!So.... Vv2, how do antagonizing others and assuming that they lack either 1) the knowledge of the word placate or 2) the common sense to look it up -- given that you did it yourself -- fit in to your definition of "taking the high road?".... self-righteous, hypocritical prick.
Am I the only one who feels that this discussion really doesn't need to be so littered with personal bias? Debates are fine, it's bias which perverts them into shouting matches. People who like brawl the way it is will play brawl, people who want to try to make brawl more fun FOR THEM can attempt to change it. Seeing as how neither group should be trying to impress their preferences on the other, this animosity is completely unwarranted. Stop being childish, use logic like a rational adult. But to the majority of posters on this thread, I'm preaching to the choir, so I guess I'll drop the admonishment bludgeon for now.
It seems that, at its core, the whole argument is a difference of opinion on both the magnitude and scope of the ability to punish an opponent, and conversely the ability to recover from punishment. In general, it is ideal to implement both nearly evenly, with perhaps a slight emphasis on the ability to punish in order to encourage intelligent, aggressive gameplay. The player should be rewarded for taking risks, but be wary of taking too large of risks so as to refrain from getting punished himself. In my opinion, brawl messed up in this department. There is barely any incentive to be aggressive, unless either you are playing mk or you are playing against a character which has such spam dominance that you must approach in order to do anything productive. Which is why I still play melee
You guys have already touched on this and more, and those of you who have played brawl more than me are bound to have a better grasp on the minutia of this discussion. I only play brawl to PLACATE my brawl-playing friends. Not that it can't be fun, it just isn't a game I feel warrants spending time in the hopes of getting better.
And it's three in the morning, so I'll stop now and wait til tomorrow to see how much my post gets torn apart....
Oh, yeah, and nice trailer. It would be interesting to see high-level play using brawl+. If only someone could host a toruney and have enough good players as well as modded wii's... Only time will tell, right?
Now the grammar in the sentence is acceptable but the way in which you used placate is well...it makes me feel bad for you....
No offense, but if you made something that's 8 pages long, I think I'll just give up and admit that Melee is more competitive. I'll still read it and try to learn from what looks right, but I just can't type something that's 8 pages long or possibly longer as a response.
...thats not a reply its a thread...personally i think it would properly fit into the fan fiction boards nicely
(thats a joke...)