Guys, we need to have a talk about the size of these blast zones...

[Yodude57]

Even if you go offstage and gimp alot of people have free recoveries and you can't ledge grab. This game would be so much better with normal sized blastzones. Landing all these critical kill moves seeing the red flash and someone just comes right back without dieing is crazy.

Yeah better for noobs (Not saying you are one.) But what I am saying is that these bigger blast zones encourage more off stage and advanced gameplay. It does this by forcing you to save your kill moves, and knowing what they are which people still don't know enough about yet, and using them effectively. Also stale move negation is a much bigger thing this time around. All this indicates needing a greater knowledge of the gameplay which will effectively separate the noobs from the pros.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I agree the blast zones are too big. With that said, killing off the top has never been easier and the new ledge mechanics make jumping off-stage to kill dudes much safer.

People at the TL Invitational were still so scared of going too far offstage when they didn't need to be. It's an instinct honed over years and years of Smash play. If you can make it to the ledge you can grab it.

 

[Renji64]

Yeah better for noobs (Not saying you are one.) But what I am saying is that these bigger blast zones encourage more off stage and advanced gameplay. It does this by forcing you to save your kill moves, and knowing what they are which people still don't know enough about yet, and using them effectively. Also stale move negation is a much bigger thing this time around. All this indicates needing a greater knowledge of the gameplay which will effectively separate the noobs from the pros.

Yeah i heard this song and dance before i have no issues going off stage i always played like that before. But these zones are huge battlefield feels big as hell.

 

[Ghoti]

Between the Blast Zone and the new ledge mechanics, I've come to some sort of a conclusion: Characters with meteor smashes, reliable KO moves and/or great recoveries are going to be more successful. Killing an opponent isn't as easy as it was in Melee or Brawl, and, in fact, it's kinda annoying, though it's possible that there are more interesting techniques, such as Vexing, which can be used to help. The large Blast Zones would be fine if we didn't have the new ledge mechanics. It's becoming harder to kill an enemy. Now, I am basing this on the demo and on how little I've played the game. Though I've played it for many hours, I haven't spent hundreds of hours with the full roster yet. I don't like the ledge mechanics because it makes the large Blast Zones even more annoying, but I think it's possible that we could use it to our advantage though techniques like Vexing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Vexing.

No.

 

[Yodude57]

Between the Blast Zone and the new ledge mechanics, I've come to some sort of a conclusion: Characters with meteor smashes, reliable KO moves and/or great recoveries are going to be more successful. Killing an opponent isn't as easy as it was in Melee or Brawl, and, in fact, it's kinda annoying, though it's possible that there are more interesting techniques, such as Vexing, which can be used to help. The large Blast Zones would be fine if we didn't have the new ledge mechanics. It's becoming harder to kill an enemy. Now, I am basing this on the demo and on how little I've played the game. Though I've played it for many hours, I haven't spent hundreds of hours with the full roster yet. I don't like the ledge mechanics because it makes the large Blast Zones even more annoying, but I think it's possible that we could use it to our advantage though techniques like Vexing.

I get how they could make the large blast zones more annoying but at least they are fair now and people can't edgehog all the time but now people have to use more skill in order to get kills instead of, "Hey look at me I can hang on to a ledge so no one else can get it. Aren't I good?" Don't mean to come off as rude but that is a pretty cheap tactic which I am glad to see go and it will make matches more fun to play and watch knowing that people can't just get a kill by just grabbing a ledge.

Btw can someone explain what vexing is?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Btw can someone explain what vexing is?

They are referring to trumping and then hitting someone while they are being forced off. For example, back airing a person forced from the ledge with Sheik.

It's stupid, people are calling it "vexing" because a player named Vex did it a few times on stream. There is no compelling reason to name this vanilla game mechanic after him. That's like calling dashing "Kenning" or calling using a throw "the mew2king." Vex is a good guy and I don't mean any disrespect, but it's really silly... and I'm sure he will survive if we just call it an edge guard like we always have, or if we must, a "trump edge guard."

 

[Ghoti]

I get how they could make the large blast zones more annoying but at least they are fair now and people can't edgehog all the time but now people have to use more skill in order to get kills instead of, "Hey look at me I can hang on to a ledge so no one else can get it. Aren't I good?" Don't mean to come off as rude but that is a pretty cheap tactic which I am glad to see go and it will make matches more fun to play and watch knowing that people can't just get a kill by just grabbing a ledge.

Btw can someone explain what vexing is?

It's not really fair. Now characters with good recoveries, meteor smashes, and/or reliable KO moves will be dominant. With the ability to steal the ledge, characters such as Jigglypuff, DHD, Villager, or Kirby are dominant. With ledge hogging, it hurts just about any opponent, and it speeds up the game.

But, as I said, we can learn to use the ledge mechanics to our advantage. Oh, and these ledge mechanics wouldn't be as much of a problem if the Blast Zones weren't so huge.

 

[Yodude57]

They are referring to trumping and then hitting someone while they are being forced off. For example, back airing a person forced from the ledge with Sheik.

It's stupid, people are calling it "vexing" because a player named Vex did it a few times on stream. There is no compelling reason to name this vanilla game mechanic after him. That's like calling dashing "Kenning" or calling using a throw "the mew2king." Vex is a good guy but I'm sure he will survive if we just call it an edge guard like we always have, or if we must, a "trump edge guard."

Thx for explaning People are too quick to throw out names because some of them just want attention. I don't know why others do it but it doesn't make it any less stupid.

 

[Yodude57]

It's not really fair. Now characters with good recoveries, meteor smashes, and/or reliable KO moves will be dominant. With the ability to steal the ledge, characters such as Jigglypuff, DHD, Villager, or Kirby are dominant. With ledge hogging, it hurts just about any opponent, and it speeds up the game.

But, as I said, we can learn to use the ledge mechanics to our advantage. Oh, and these ledge mechanics wouldn't be as much of a problem if the Blast Zones weren't so huge.

I've seen people, especially zero, who have edgegaurded Villager. It's easy to edgegaurded and punish people like villager because they are completely vulnerable during their up b making it just as balanced as the other characters if you know how to deal with it.

 

[Lozjam]

Guys. You just need to play smart and save your KO's. I am having no problems KO'ing with any of the demo characters.

 

[Yodude57]

Guys. You just need to play smart and save your KO's. I am having no problems KO'ing with any of the demo characters.

This guy understands what I mean!

 

[Senario]

The blast zones do kinda suck. Nobody ever seems to die until they are above 140% or 150 but more importantly they are almost never put into a disadvantageous situation off the stage as their recovery is so huge and following them off could just mean they air dodge because they can recover anyway. Some characters have zero combo potential and the ones that do don't really have any other moves they can link together all that well. I'm lucky in that I have a character who looks like they still have a solid combo game but I feel for the rest of the characters who either send people too far out or just don't have very good followups.

 

[Gatoray]

The blast zones do kinda suck. Nobody ever seems to die until they are above 140% or 150 but more importantly they are almost never put into a disadvantageous situation off the stage as their recovery is so huge and following them off could just mean they air dodge because they can recover anyway. Some characters have zero combo potential and the ones that do don't really have any other moves they can link together all that well. I'm lucky in that I have a character who looks like they still have a solid combo game but I feel for the rest of the characters who either send people too far out or just don't have very good followups.

This is what worries me the most. I'm hoping there is a hidden philosophy the developers designed the game around and once we figure that out it will be much easier to KO. But as of right now everything that we know about the ledge and recoveries from previous Smash games has been completely reworked. I think killing off the top is going to be the better option for reliable KOs and I'm already seeing certain characters that accel at vertical KOs. I'm predicting these characters will become top tier.

 

[Yodude57]

The blast zones do kinda suck. Nobody ever seems to die until they are above 140% or 150 but more importantly they are almost never put into a disadvantageous situation off the stage as their recovery is so huge and following them off could just mean they air dodge because they can recover anyway. Some characters have zero combo potential and the ones that do don't really have any other moves they can link together all that well. I'm lucky in that I have a character who looks like they still have a solid combo game but I feel for the rest of the characters who either send people too far out or just don't have very good followups.

How do you know how good characters combo? The game has only been out for a few days.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

You guys do realize that because you can't get edgehogged, you can be WAY more aggresssive edgeguarding? You don't have to worry about being edgehogged if you go too low and miss. I think everyones looking at this with a closed mind. As I play the demo, I am willing to drop down REALLY low below the stage to get a gimp because I know If I don't manage to gimp the opponent the ledge is there for me to grab.

 

[Gatoray]

As I play the demo, I am willing to drop down REALLY low below the stage to get a gimp because I know If I don't manage to gimp the opponent the ledge is there for me to grab.

Assuming your character has a good enough recovery to get back. Some characters just won't be able to go that low and are expected to kill on the stage.

Fortunately, it seems these kinds of characters like Mac and Falcon have reliable low-percent kill moves, but we'll see if they're reliable enough once comp. play starts getting big.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Assuming your character has a good enough recovery to get back. Some characters just won't be able to go that low and are expected to kill on the stage.

Fortunately, it seems these kinds of characters like Mac and Falcon have reliable low-percent kill moves, but we'll see if they're reliable enough once comp. play starts getting big.

Wait, I thought the arguement was that everyones recovery was so good they will survive any attack. So this whole thread is operating under the presumption that everyones recovery is really good. If some people's recoeries are bad, why are we having this discussion in the first place?

It's true that there are issues with the blast zones and recoveries, I'm simply saying everyone is only paying attention to the way the changes to the game allow us to survive and ignoring completely the way the changes let us get kills sooner.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Average percent in which an uncharged smash attack can kill: Around 120%
Average lifespan of characters: 150%
Average time in which a character loses a stock: 1 minute 30 seconds or less

Impressions:
- The side blastzones are further out; emphasis on off-stage game and aerial gimps to kill opponents.
- It is easier to kill opponents using the ceiling blastzone, but not all characters can capitalize on this.
- Beginning of the matches are very much like Brawl+. Emphasis on short combo chains, good reads, and punishing airdodges and certain moves.
- Later part of the match slows down by a good amount. Not nearly as bad as Brawl, but it is a bit jarring due to the blast zones being distanced out. It's less about combos and good reads, and it becomes more of a hit-and-run playstyle...similar to Brawl.
- Other than that, a definite improvement over Brawl and the game feels very fluid.

Impressions are based upon the Smash 3DS Demo.


Mega Man's Up Tilt: Kills Link (heaviest demo character) at 87-88% on Final Destination version of Battlefield. Kills Pikachu (lightest demo character) at 75%.
Mega Man's Down Smash: Kills Link at 94% on FD Battlefield. Kills Pikachu at 79%.

These numbers were tested on CPUs, so DI was not a factor in these calculations.

 

[Backgammon]

I don't see why we need to talk about it.

So far, the only character I've had problem with killing successfully in the demo is Mega Man. And that's because I suck as him.

This game is not Brawl, Melee or 64, so try not to play it like it is.
Save your strongest moves for when you can kill and you'll have an easier time killing.

I can consistently kill with Villager on stage at about 70%.

Long story short, with these disjointed thoughts is that off stage play is very, very important. If you're unwilling to take a risk by going off stage, you aren't getting that kill for another 50-60%.

 

[Exaggeratedhonesty]

I don't see why we need to talk about it.

So far, the only character I've had problem with killing successfully in the demo is Mega Man. And that's because I suck as him.

This game is not Brawl, Melee or 64, so try not to play it like it is.
Save your strongest moves for when you can kill and you'll have an easier time killing.

I can consistently kill with Villager on stage at about 70%.

Long story short, with these disjointed thoughts is that off stage play is very, very important. If you're unwilling to take a risk by going off stage, you aren't getting that kill for another 50-60%.

You talk as if common sense is in everyone. :3

 

[Bladeviper]

also as said in other places meteors and spikes are going to be really good in this game, ive seen mario kill at 50-60% with fair pretty constantly on stream

 

[Senario]

It feels really generic when the only way you can kill somebody is following off the stage. The intent was for off stage gameplay but it really just doesnt work because a lot of characters simply will just airdodge your approach then recover.

 

[Gatoray]

After reading discussion and playing around more in the demo, I'm 90% convinced that larger stage boundaries will not be an issue. I knew it was too early to tell (and honestly, VGBC are not making the blast zones look any smaller, 'dem call outs) and I'm sure that once people actually figure out what to go to secure the kill things will be getting a lot faster.

I'm sure many people are still on-edge hoping we won't get another Brawl and are dismissing certain things too early. The North American version hasn't even come out yet, sheesh!

 

[Bladeviper]

It feels really generic when the only way you can kill somebody is following off the stage. The intent was for off stage gameplay but it really just doesnt work because a lot of characters simply will just airdodge your approach then recover.

its about reading the airdodge at that point,

 

[Gunla]

In this game, from what I've seen, it's that you have to work a bit more for a good KO. Simply put, we're usually used to KOing safely at lower %s, and this game has made it so instead you have to take some risks and make your KOs count.

If you want to KO safely, you'll go for ~120-140%
If you are willing to work for your KOs, you can get lower % ones.

 

[Bladeviper]

also i know this is the 3ds thread but i think it might not be as much of an issue on the wii u since with a controller i think builing up percents with combos will be easier since i think people won't input the wrong moves in the air, which it seems happens a lot with the circle pad

 

[san.]

I think we have yet to see how heavy punishments will develop in this game. The nerf of the air dodge makes it so that the ability to combo isn't a necessity, only maintaining offensive superiority in the case an aerial is thrown out. If someone throws out an air dodge, the only options they have are to double jump which potentially puts them in the same situation again, immediately throw out an aerial, or use an evasive/offensive special. The air dodge landing lag lasts for a good second after it ends before you can land safely, so the player needs to throw out something or else they can get punished by a devastating attack.

 

[TimeSmash]

If it's truly truly terrible, I could see them patching it. But this makes you get much more creative with edgeguards, versus just constantly refreshing your double jump or using things like Shino Stalling to hog the edge. Now you actually have to make very good use of your character's aerials, or projectiles moreso than ever. Which in itself isn't a bad thing unless the gameplay becomes chess-like to watch or leads to like five minutes for one stock haha

 

[Conda]

It's not a bad thing, I think it encourages the meta to develop in a more aggressive off-stage way, Not the simple 'use smash attack to K.O.', since it takes longer to. But recoveries are better and the offstage areas are larger, encouraging off-stage defensive and aggressive play. I think it'll turn out very well.

 

[Bladeviper]

If it's truly truly terrible, I could see them patching it. But this makes you get much more creative with edgeguards, versus just constantly refreshing your double jump or using things like Shino Stalling to hog the edge. Now you actually have to make very good use of your character's aerials, or projectiles moreso than ever. Which in itself isn't a bad thing unless the gameplay becomes chess-like to watch or leads to like five minutes for one stock haha

the streams and the tourny i saw so far seem to kill quite a bit faster than that lol

 

[TimeSmash]

the streams and the tourny i saw so far seem to kill quite a bit faster than that lol

Exactly haha, so I don't predict it being too much of an issue

 

[DJ Dong]

1. Never and I mean never has the rooster ever been remotely balanced in any official smash game. Even before the blast zones were extended in this game, there was a wide gap in the quality of characters ability to recover. It's just as true in Smash 4.

Take Newcomer Little Mac for example. His midair jump and up special are so terrible it doesn't even matter that the blast zone is further out this entry. Hell, you could make the blast line twice as far out as it already is in Smash 4, and he'd still die pathetically. Characters are not going to be equally viable regardless of the size of the blast zone. Not now, not ever. That's just how things are.

2. Of course his ( I hesitate to say hard work) payed off. It did so in two ways. First, even though it didn't result in an instant KO landing a smash attack adds a chunk of percentage to your opponents damage which is never a good thing for them. Second there's the mental anguish the rolling player experiences due to his decision to roll being read. He may still be alive, but is now in more danger than before. He is under increased pressure/stress since now another error like that will cost him far worse and he knows it.

3. I don't care how the "Audience" feels. They mean nothing to me. This is a video game. It's a toy. You play with it. You can even think of it as a competitive sport in the same vein as Baseball or Soccer if you're the sort that takes competitive gaming seriously, but even then the point of a competition has never been to entertain the people that may be spectating. You are not putting on a performance. On this point, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

A lot of people care about how the audience feels because the audience determines how long we can play this game the way we'd like to. In tournament, on the big stage, showing how good or bad we are at it.

 

[SmasherP83]

Blast zones feel fine to me.

It's just I guess heavy punishment and a semi to fully charged Smash attack could kill (Don't forget about a few items.)

 

[TimeSmash]

A lot of people care about how the audience feels because the audience determines how long we can play this game the way we'd like to. In tournament, on the big stage, showing how good or bad we are at it.

This is really true. I mean Brawl is really strategic and all, but since it's very spacing oriented, it's like watching golf or something

 

[SmasherP83]

This is really true. I mean Brawl is really strategic and all, but since it's very spacing oriented, it's like watching golf or something

I almost died laughing.

NO one watches golf right...................Right...?

 

[Renji64]

I have seen some many people land ko moves and even offstage see the red flash and nothing happens free recovery back to the stage and blastzones got you living for life.

 

[Gunla]

The flashing red usually won't be major on larger stages unless they are close to the side of the stage they are aiming at.

With a stage like Battlefield's size, it's going to mean near-death. In addition, what I've done in the demo is if the red-flash doesn't kill, usually you have to work to get the KO (IE: Mega Man's Fair or Bair) and stop the opponent from recovering.

It all goes back to having to work more for your KOs now. I enjoy the change, personally.

 

[SmasherP83]

I have seen some many people land ko moves and even offstage see the red flash and nothing happens free recovery back to the stage and blastzones got you living for life.

Livin like Larry.

 

[Senario]

I'm just going to say, I understand people enjoying having to go off stage to get kills but why does it have to be the only option? I like having multiple ways to kill. If I hit you or combo you into a kill move that puts you out at the far edge you should have a hard time recovering or die from falling. I don't like the change mainly because it is the only viable option to do.