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Guys, we need to have a talk about the size of these blast zones...

Gatoray

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I was watching Tourney Locator's smash tournament tonight and it really seems like it's going to be a big problem for competitive play. Most characters are easily able to survive up to 200% even though they start getting into the "danger knockback" state around 100-120%. The lack of traditional edgeguarding doesn't help at all.

Yes, I know I should just let the meta develop and see what happens, but I'm throwing it out there early to see what others think about it. It's inevitable that we'll have to just adapt to it somehow, maybe this will require much more precise percentage knowledge from top players to make sure their moves will kill.
 

Yodude57

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I was watching Tourney Locator's smash tournament tonight and it really seems like it's going to be a big problem for competitive play. Most characters are easily able to survive up to 200% even though they start getting into the "danger knockback" state around 100-120%. The lack of traditional edgeguarding doesn't help at all.

Yes, I know I should just let the meta develop and see what happens, but I'm throwing it out there early to see what others think about it. It's inevitable that we'll have to just adapt to it somehow, maybe this will require much more precise percentage knowledge from top players to make sure their moves will kill.
Well at this point people don't know characters well enough to know how to kill other characters properly and the game seems to encourage off stage gameplay.
 

DJ Dong

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Yeah, it's a huge issue. The game is stupendous, easily the best Smash game, except for the blast zones. They really do ruin the entire game.

It won't do well in tournament with this. Viewers don't want to sit around and watch you smack around someone at 140% for 2 minutes without much action at all.

Well at this point people don't know characters well enough to know how to kill other characters properly and the game seems to encourage off stage gameplay.
That was the initial thought but was debunked in the tournament he's referencing. People were surviving even when hit while offstage. We really need stages with closer blastzones.
 

SonicZeroX

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Save your kill moves until you want to kill to avoid stale move negation. I saw Zero get easy kills with stuff like Bowser Side B and even Captain Falcon side B at like 120% by not using those moves at all except when he was going for the KO.
 

Rich Homie Quan

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It's really not that bad.

First off, surviving till 200%, even with DI, is very rare. VGBootcamp has been playing all day and that rarely happened at any point in their stream. 140-160 wish the range, and it isn't unmanageable.

Second, saving your ko moves for the actual kill really does work. Pretty well, in fact.

And third, these zones make you commit to your kill. If you smash someone off stage, you'd better jump off after them and finish the job. It certainly makes it more invigorating to watch. I saw tons of matches with sheik and off-stage play worked really well. It was almost Melee-esque at times.

And finally, in regards to tournament logistics, two stocks might be appropriate if people can't adapt. I've seems VGBootcamp play two-stock matches and they're fitting.

The zones are an issue, but not an issue that can't be adjusted for. I'm confident the meta will evolve to adapt.
 
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Reila

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I, for one, don't see that as a bad thing. At least to me the matches are more enjoyable with the characters surviving for a longer amount of time.
 

ScottyWK

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I honestly think it promotes off-stage play a bit more. While playing the demo so far, I've used Megaman, Mario, and even Link to chase off-stage more so that I can get a kill at a normal killing %. It is a bit disheartening to smash someone at 115% and see them survive, but when it happens, I just chase them and find a way to finish the deal.

I don't think it'll affect too much. It may cause the timer to go up a minute or two, but the notion of 2-stock matches (heard that the other day) isn't necessary.
 

Seraphim.

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I've seen people be more aggressive offstage and land meteors/spikes to counter this, the game seems to welcome offstage play.
 

Khao

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Offstage play really is the way to go. I've only played CPUs on the demo, but if you play smart and are willing to take risks, you can get kills at very low percents.

I feel like Villager and Mega Man are especially good at doing that, you don't even need "kill moves," just drive your opponent as far as you can until they can't recover. Villager especailly can go really far and still get back to the stage, so he's just freaking great at chasing the opponent outside of the stage.
 

DJ Dong

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It's really not that bad.

First off, surviving till 200%, even with DI, is very rare. VGBootcamp has been playing all day and that rarely happened at any point in their stream. 140-160 wish the range, and it isn't unmanageable.

Second, saving your ko moves for the actual kill really does work. Pretty well, in fact.

And third, these zones make you commit to your kill. If you smash someone off stage, you'd better jump off after them and finish the job. It certainly makes it more invigorating to watch. I saw tons of matches with sheik and off-stage play worked really well. It was almost Melee-esque at times.

And finally, in regards to tournament logistics, two stocks might be appropriate if people can't adapt. I've seems VGBootcamp play two-stock matches and they're fitting.

The zones are an issue, but not an issue that can't be adjusted for. I'm confident the meta will evolve to adapt.
Is there any confirmation on the staling system yet?
 

AzureFlame4

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Watching Zero's stream and it seems that he gets a lot of fairly early kills with offstage hits as others have been mentioning. It makes it a little more exciting to actually be more active with edge guarding rather than just hanging there for a second. That's just my opinion though. I've also noticed that there are a lot of moves that wouldn't normally kill early in other games killing early in this and vice versa. A lot of people seem to be sticking to habits of the old games right now and haven't had time to adjust to what the new kill moves are. I say give it a week and the blast zones will be only a slight problem, if at all.
 

Anomalous Adam

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Sakurai is just trying to tell us that it's not the size that matters it's how you use it.
 

Raijinken

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I'd be fine with smaller blast lines, just nothing like some Melee stages where once you left the screen, you died. A happy medium. I do enjoy the ledge mechanics, though.
 

Juken

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I'm definitely feeling your frustration, OP. It doesn't feel like we don't know the kill-moves yet, but more like the knock-back of most of the moves end up sending them flying at a rapid speed, but just don't kill thanks to the size of the stages or something.

I also find the new effect of that big lightning effect on a guaranteed kill-attack very unsettling. It just comes off to me as if the attacks killing are only determined by a specific percentage rather than by how you DI/move when hit, with the percentage contributing to the knock-back.
 

DJ Dong

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I'm definitely feeling your frustration, OP. It doesn't feel like we don't know the kill-moves yet, but more like the knock-back of most of the moves end up sending them flying at a rapid speed, but just don't kill thanks to the size of the stages or something.

I also find the new effect of that big lightning effect on a guaranteed kill-attack very unsettling. It just comes off to me as if the attacks killing are only determined by a specific percentage rather than by how you DI/move when hit, with the percentage contributing to the knock-back.
To be fair in Melee you were generally dead if your character did a certain sound effect. But I understand what you mean.

What do you guys think are the chances of us at least having the option to play on stages that aren't so massive? I hope they don't keep them ALL so big. I saw what they did to Yoshi's Island on the 3ds version so I fear for Halberd on the Wii U.
 

Xeiros

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I'm not sure if I understand how this is necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps I'm wrong about what blast zones are. Please correct if this is explanation is erroneous in any way:

The blast zone is the area in which a KO occurs. It surrounds each stage on all four sides. Once your character crosses the invisible line into said territory called a blast line, they will instantly die. To extend the blast zone means to push the blast line that divides the safe and death zones of a stage even further out from the center.

Now if that is indeed correct, it would mean that while characters could be sent flying further from the stage without crossing the blast line, it would also increase the distance they needed to cover in order to make it safely back onto the stage as a side effect. This would create three basic scenarios:

1. Percent is so high certain attacks if landed will instantly kill them

2. Percent is high enough that when launched off the stage with strong KB certain character's recoveries won't allow them to make it back to the stage due to the increased distance needed to travel.

3. Percents is at a point where when launched, a character can easily make it safely back onto the stage unless they are edge guarded.

Now obviously in what direction they're launched will be important. If you try to hit them straight up hoping for a star KO let's say, the blast line being further back will indeed be in their favor as if they aren't launched past it, they'll likely be above the stage already and only need to land on it.

Certain characters have recoveries that are strong in one direction, but poor in the other. That is to say, horizontal vs. vertical distance covered. Still others have recoveries that are strong in both aspects, but leave you open to attack. The key will be knowing in which direction to launch each character to make it hardest from them to make it back on stage and then edge guarding to ensure they don't succeed.
 
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DJ Dong

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I'm not sure if I understand how this is necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps I'm wrong about what blast zones are. Please correct if this is explanation is erroneous in any way:

The blast zone is the area in which a KO occurs. It surrounds each stage on all four sides. Once your character crosses the invisible line into said territory called a blast line, they will instantly die. To extend the blast zone means to push the blast line that divides the safe and death zones of a stage even further out from the center.

Now if that is indeed correct, it would mean that while characters could be sent flying further from the stage without crossing the blast line, it would also increase the distance they needed to cover in order to make it safely back onto the stage as a side effect. This would create three basic scenarios:

1. Percent is so high certain attacks if landed will instantly kill them

2. Percent is high enough that when launched off the stage with strong KB certain character's recoveries won't allow them to make it back to the stage due to the increased distance needed to travel.

3. Percents is at a point where when launched, a character can easily make it safely back onto the stage unless they are edge guarded.

Now obviously in what direction they're launched will be important. If you try to hit them straight up hoping for a star KO let's say, the blast line being further back will indeed be in their favor as if they aren't launched past it, they'll likely be above the stage already and only need to land on it.

Certain characters have recoveries that are strong in one direction, but poor in the other. That is to say, horizontal vs. vertical distance covered. Still others have recoveries that are strong in both aspects, but leave you open to attack. The key will be knowing in which direction to launch each character to make it hardest from them to make it back on stage and then edge guarding to ensure they don't succeed.
I'm not sure what the point of this post was. It was correct, but I don't see your point.

If you're wondering why this is bad, it's because:

1. It limits character viability because some characters simply lack the tools to deal operate in larger blast zones.

2. It means you aren't rewarded for your "hard reads". As an example: In a tournament I watched today I watched someone forward smash another person out of a roll. The commentators were stunned and shouted "OH THAT WAS AN AMA- oh never mind he's living." It kills momentum and hype greatly to see your hard work not pay off. Why would you play a game that becomes a tedious task to do basic things which are essential for a win condition? The audience isn't exactly friendly toward that either.

3. As somewhat covered above, the audience gets bored. It isn't interesting to watch someone smack around his opponent who is at 140%+ because he can't kill. The main response to this is "oh, well just jump off stage and hit them". My response is that even then you generally won't finish your opponent off, and not only that, why should someone who is winning have to take such a massive risk just to complete his lead? You are putting your entire gamelife on the line by jumping offstage JUST to seal what you've worked so hard for.

TL;DR: This game is anti-hype and anti-competitive because players are not rewarded and viewers have to sit through anti-climatic mundanity.





EDIT: On a final note, I'd like to point out that I have no issues with the massive roll buff. In fact I believe it promotes very high level play through reads and intelligence. But the blast zones also ruin that as shown in the example I used in Point #2.
 
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ぱみゅ

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Not being able to kill after a Hard Read has been a thing for this series since forever.
 

SamSun

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I don't see how bigger blastzones is a bad thing for the competitive side of the game.. it's different, not bad.
 

Goten21

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There's equipment available that makes your character stronger

Think about it

If you were playing with a lot of equipment on Melee sized stages, wouldn't they all fly off at around 60%? They had to prevent that by making the blast-zones much bigger

Therefor, we could allow some sort of equipment on tournaments to make the fights go faster
 
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RascalTheCharizard

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Semi-reliable to reliable KO combos is a remedy and one we can possibly make ourselves. From my experience in Brawl the reason I always had so much trouble KOing was because all my KO moves would just get blocked and blocked and blocked a-
So with ways to lead into KOs, that becomes so much less of a problem.

Example:


(I'm pretty sure the Fthrow -> Bouncing Fish was a true combo, too. When I viewed it frame-by-frame Mario looked like he was still in hitstun and the smoke trail hadn't completely dissipated yet.)

This might be getting a little off topic, but I think the "KO lightning" either doesn't factor in DI, or just straight-up sucks. Too many times have I seen it show up, only to have the player live.
 
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Tristan_win

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There's equipment available that makes your character stronger

Think about it

If you were playing with a lot of equipment on Melee sized stages, wouldn't they all fly off at around 60%? They had to prevent that by making the blast-zones much bigger

Therefor, I say we should allow some sort of equipment on tournaments to make the fights go faster
You could somewhat use that as a argument for equipment but a better solution would be to just increase knock back from 1.0 to 1.2 or something to that nature.

OR

We could wait a few months and see if people are still having trouble killing instead of basing everything we know on a few select people playing the game for less then 72 hours.
 
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Goten21

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You could somewhat use that as a argument for equipment but a better solution would be to just increase knock back from 1.0 to 1.2 or something to that nature.

OR

We could wait a few months and see if people are still having trouble killing instead of basing everything we know on a few select people playing the game for less then 72 hours.
I'm just trying to spawn a discussion

We all know waiting how it'll turn out to be is the best solution.
 

Tristan_win

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I'm just trying to spawn a discussion

We all know waiting how it'll turn out to be is the best solution.
Sorry I'm just really anti equipment,

It requires grinding for the best version of the item you want, it can drastically change characters speed/power including speed of attacks, and I've yet to see any proof they add any sort of layer of depth. They would also make it that much harder for new players to get into the tournament scene as they would have to do research on what the best combination are and then grind for it if they wanted any chance of winning in tournaments.

Customize moves on the other hand still have the potential to add a lot of depth and while they may require a bit of grind it's nothing on the level of equipment nor do they drastically change a character as a whole.

Edit: The other big thing is with all this equipment add to our characters we would be playing a very different game then people who don't use equipment and that would also serve to prevent new players from learning characters and joining our scene as well. Equipment is just bad on soooooo many levels.
 
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Signia

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Just know that characters that can recover from anywhere and those that can fight offstage or defend the ledge are going to be the stronger characters. Either that or play characters with great KO power, like Bowser or Little Mac (lol just kidding he sux).

I don't see how bigger blastzones is a bad thing for the competitive side of the game.. it's different, not bad.
Try reading the thread?
I'm not sure what the point of this post was. It was correct, but I don't see your point.

If you're wondering why this is bad, it's because:

1. It limits character viability because some characters simply lack the tools to deal operate in larger blast zones.

2. It means you aren't rewarded for your "hard reads". As an example: In a tournament I watched today I watched someone forward smash another person out of a roll. The commentators were stunned and shouted "OH THAT WAS AN AMA- oh never mind he's living." It kills momentum and hype greatly to see your hard work not pay off. Why would you play a game that becomes a tedious task to do basic things which are essential for a win condition? The audience isn't exactly friendly toward that either.

3. As somewhat covered above, the audience gets bored. It isn't interesting to watch someone smack around his opponent who is at 140%+ because he can't kill. The main response to this is "oh, well just jump off stage and hit them". My response is that even then you generally won't finish your opponent off, and not only that, why should someone who is winning have to take such a massive risk just to complete his lead? You are putting your entire gamelife on the line by jumping offstage JUST to seal what you've worked so hard for.

TL;DR: This game is anti-hype and anti-competitive because players are not rewarded and viewers have to sit through anti-climatic mundanity.





EDIT: On a final note, I'd like to point out that I have no issues with the massive roll buff. In fact I believe it promotes very high level play through reads and intelligence. But the blast zones also ruin that as shown in the example I used in Point #2.
 

Ryuutakeshi

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In regards to the blast zones lessening hype, just watch for the lightning. Any move that creates lightning will 90-95% of the time signify a kill. So that should help commentators from jumping the gun.

I actually like the blast zones being where they are. It makes you work for those kills. People will fall, but they're not going to go easily. It's pretty cool in practice.
 

Goten21

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Sorry I'm just really anti equipment,

It requires grinding for the best version of the item you want, it can drastically change characters speed/power including speed of attacks, and I've yet to see any proof they add any sort of layer of depth. They would also make it that much harder for new players to get into the tournament scene as they would have to do research on what the best combination are and then grind for it if they wanted any chance of winning in tournaments.

Customize moves on the other hand still have the potential to add a lot of depth and while they may require a bit of grind it's nothing on the level of equipment nor do they drastically change a character as a whole.

Edit: The other big thing is with all this equipment add to our characters we would be playing a very different game then people who don't use equipment and that would also serve to prevent new players from learning characters and joining our scene as well. Equipment is just bad on soooooo many levels.
But they would make tier lists invalid (I think that's a good thing...) and a piece of equipment doesn't only add stats
It takes some of it away as well

But I agree with the grinding and new players part
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The obvious purpose of this is to emphasize the off-stage game. Combos are real in this game; chase people off-stage and make those stocks end early. I feel like just not being able to do that is (whether as a player or a character) is going to really be a big problem this game, and of course, in the early metagame, people won't be comfortable doing that and will have some fairly long games though I do notice a lot of smashes hit very hard and can kill fairly early (not much over 100%) with a good hit aimed toward the closer blast zone.
 

Une

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I'm skeptical. You have to be open to the possibility that the game will get more campy and defensive like Brawl as time goes on.

No **** the meta will adapt or whatever, but what the hell does that even mean? Is it going to get more offensive or more defensive? You don't know how it's going to turn out.

Especially in a game where you have to be finished off(it's not just, deplete the HP bar, done. You can have 300% and still be good as long as you aren't finished off), all this space to run around in, and have sooooo much invincibility.

I mean, I'm sure Brawl was more offensive at first, then people realized that "Wait, wtf this game has like no hitstun or blockstun." Then things kind of changed from there on.
 

Ryuutakeshi

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I'm skeptical. You have to be open to the possibility that the game will get more campy and defensive like Brawl as time goes on.

No **** the meta will adapt or whatever, but what the hell does that even mean? Is it going to get more offensive or more defensive? You don't know how it's going to turn out.

Especially in a game where you have to be finished off(it's not just, deplete the HP bar, done. You can have 300% and still be good as long as you aren't finished off), all this space to run around in, and have sooooo much invincibility.

I mean, I'm sure Brawl was more offensive at first, then people realized that "Wait, wtf this game has like no hitstun or blockstun." Then things kind of changed from there on.
That might be a bit too harsh of a comparison, just based on what I'm seeing now. I don't really feel like smash3DS has as strong of defensive tools as brawl did.
 

Tristan_win

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But they would make tier lists invalid (I think that's a good thing...) and a piece of equipment doesn't only add stats
It takes some of it away as well

But I agree with the grinding and new players part
Honestly I don't think it's possible to make tier list invalid as every character can use the same equipment so you could just put that equipment on the 'best character' and he would still be the best. Something I've thought long about if customize moves were banned then maybe we could use them to boost weaker characters. Maybe this same thinking could apply to equipment if we had a absolute worst character we could make a rule that X equipment with exactly X stat would be allowed on this character to make his chance of winning improve.

This is assume there would be a hyrule tier in smash4 which so far I don't think there is.
 
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Ganreizu

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I also find the new effect of that big lightning effect on a guaranteed kill-attack very unsettling. It just comes off to me as if the attacks killing are only determined by a specific percentage rather than by how you DI/move when hit, with the percentage contributing to the knock-back.
Black lightning appears when you hit someone at 0% right next to a walk off, so it's more than just how much % is being done. It also doesn't guarantee a kill will happen either. Given that, i do not think it factors in DI or maybe even weight.
 
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Goten21

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Honestly I don't think it's possible to make tier list invalid as every character can use the same equipment so you could just put that equipment on the 'best character' and he would still be the best. Something I've thought long about if customize moves were banned then maybe we could use them to boost weaker characters. Maybe this same thinking could apply to equipment if we had a absolute worst character we could make a rule that X equipment with exactly X stat would be allowed on this character to make his chance of winning improve.

This is assume there would be a hyrule tier in smash4 which so far I don't think there is.
Well, this is as far as we can get with this argument atp of the game
Now we just have to wait 'n see for how the meta will turn out to be
 

WizKick

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Double Post
Black lightning appears when you hit someone at 0% right next to a walk off, so it's more than just how much % is being done. It also doesn't guarantee a kill will happen either. Given that, i do not think it factors in DI or maybe even weight.
This is true. I have DI'd lightning stuff when sent flying very far and having the time to do it.

I'm skeptical. You have to be open to the possibility that the game will get more campy and defensive like Brawl as time goes on.

No **** the meta will adapt or whatever, but what the hell does that even mean? Is it going to get more offensive or more defensive? You don't know how it's going to turn out.

Especially in a game where you have to be finished off(it's not just, deplete the HP bar, done. You can have 300% and still be good as long as you aren't finished off), all this space to run around in, and have sooooo much invincibility.

I mean, I'm sure Brawl was more offensive at first, then people realized that "Wait, wtf this game has like no hitstun or blockstun." Then things kind of changed from there on.
If it did I think that'd be fine. It's its own meta. Let it be what it is. It doesn't have to run at a breakneck pace to be engaging and require skill.
 
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Xeiros

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I'm not sure what the point of this post was. It was correct, but I don't see your point.

If you're wondering why this is bad, it's because:

1. It limits character viability because some characters simply lack the tools to deal operate in larger blast zones.

2. It means you aren't rewarded for your "hard reads". As an example: In a tournament I watched today I watched someone forward smash another person out of a roll. The commentators were stunned and shouted "OH THAT WAS AN AMA- oh never mind he's living." It kills momentum and hype greatly to see your hard work not pay off. Why would you play a game that becomes a tedious task to do basic things which are essential for a win condition? The audience isn't exactly friendly toward that either.

3. As somewhat covered above, the audience gets bored. It isn't interesting to watch someone smack around his opponent who is at 140%+ because he can't kill. The main response to this is "oh, well just jump off stage and hit them". My response is that even then you generally won't finish your opponent off, and not only that, why should someone who is winning have to take such a massive risk just to complete his lead? You are putting your entire gamelife on the line by jumping offstage JUST to seal what you've worked so hard for.

TL;DR: This game is anti-hype and anti-competitive because players are not rewarded and viewers have to sit through anti-climatic mundanity.

EDIT: On a final note, I'd like to point out that I have no issues with the massive roll buff. In fact I believe it promotes very high level play through reads and intelligence. But the blast zones also ruin that as shown in the example I used in Point #2.
1. Never and I mean never has the rooster ever been remotely balanced in any official smash game. Even before the blast zones were extended in this game, there was a wide gap in the quality of characters ability to recover. It's just as true in Smash 4.

Take Newcomer Little Mac for example. His midair jump and up special are so terrible it doesn't even matter that the blast zone is further out this entry. Hell, you could make the blast line twice as far out as it already is in Smash 4, and he'd still die pathetically. Characters are not going to be equally viable regardless of the size of the blast zone. Not now, not ever. That's just how things are.

2. Of course his ( I hesitate to say hard work) payed off. It did so in two ways. First, even though it didn't result in an instant KO landing a smash attack adds a chunk of percentage to your opponents damage which is never a good thing for them. Second there's the mental anguish the rolling player experiences due to his decision to roll being read. He may still be alive, but is now in more danger than before. He is under increased pressure/stress since now another error like that will cost him far worse and he knows it.

3. I don't care how the "Audience" feels. They mean nothing to me. This is a video game. It's a toy. You play with it. You can even think of it as a competitive sport in the same vein as Baseball or Soccer if you're the sort that takes competitive gaming seriously, but even then the point of a competition has never been to entertain the people that may be spectating. You are not putting on a performance. On this point, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
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Yodude57

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Yeah, it's a huge issue. The game is stupendous, easily the best Smash game, except for the blast zones. They really do ruin the entire game.

It won't do well in tournament with this. Viewers don't want to sit around and watch you smack around someone at 140% for 2 minutes without much action at all.


That was the initial thought but was debunked in the tournament he's referencing. People were surviving even when hit while offstage. We really need stages with closer blastzones.
This is exactly what I mean. The game has only been out for a few days so people don't know enough about the game yet. They even admitted that during the stream. I've also seen enough of this game to know (especially stuff from zero's stream) that, if you know how to, you can edgeguard any character, including villager, and you can kill at relatively low percents if you know how to. It's just a matter of time before people learn the aspects of this game and the metagame evolves. Personally I see nothing wrong with bigger blast zones as it encourages you to use smart play by knowing which moves to use when to use them. Also stale move negation is more noticible in this game. I think that from what we know the increase in stale negation and blast zones will further separate the noobs from the pros.
 
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Renji64

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Even if you go offstage and gimp alot of people have free recoveries and you can't ledge grab. This game would be so much better with normal sized blastzones. Landing all these critical kill moves seeing the red flash and someone just comes right back without dieing is crazy.
 
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