Guys, we need to have a talk about the size of these blast zones...

[Qikz]

I have seen some many people land ko moves and even offstage see the red flash and nothing happens free recovery back to the stage and blastzones got you living for life.

I don't think the red flash necessarily is meant to mean "this person is going to die" anymore. The particle effects are more for being super flashy. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I must've put about 20 hours into the game now and I've found by playing and watching Zero that killing people is not that hard. The people at the tournament yesterday were not commiting to killing anyone.

This game is certainly more about active edgeguarding. It's up to you to leave the stage to confirm your kill. You can't just sit on the stage forever and expect to kill people unless you want to do it off the top or with Ness' side grab. If anything, I'd say that's more exciting to watch, because the most exciting moments of my 3-4 years of watching Melee were when the game went off stage.

I'd say it's best to give the game a few months for people to a) learn the new mechanics and b) learn the new characters and how the returning characters have changed before we make any crazy thoughts about the game. Also maybe I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain other FD variants of the stages have different blast zones. Battlefield, normal FD and Yoshi's may have big blastzones, but there's other stages with much, much smaller. We've just got to be more willing as a community to accept change and new things rather than trying to force things so close to release.

It's why I'm heavily against sticking the game to 2 stocks right away. It's much harder to accept a move up in stocks than a move down. We had the invitational and SDCC tournaments with 3/4 stocks and the games were not that long. We need to let the best players play then work out what to do from there in time.

I'd also like to point out it's not impossible to smash and kill. I've seen on streams that Marth with a forward smash tipper can kill someone at 80-100%. I've done similar online with Lucina at 100-110%. The counter too can kill fairly early as it has a lot of pushing power.

 

[SmasherP83]

I'm just going to say, I understand people enjoying having to go off stage to get kills but why does it have to be the only option? I like having multiple ways to kill. If I hit you or combo you into a kill move that puts you out at the far edge you should have a hard time recovering or die from falling. I don't like the change mainly because it is the only viable option to do.

Only time I ever go off to kill is if I have a character who has a spike/meteor or if I'm desperate for the kill.

Other than that I mainly stay on stage for the action.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I don't think the red flash necessarily is meant to mean "this person is going to die" anymore. The particle effects are more for being super flashy. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I must've put about 20 hours into the game now and I've found by playing and watching Zero that killing people is not that hard. The people at the tournament yesterday were not commiting to killing anyone.

This game is certainly more about active edgeguarding. It's up to you to leave the stage to confirm your kill. You can't just sit on the stage forever and expect to kill people unless you want to do it off the top or with Ness' side grab. If anything, I'd say that's more exciting to watch, because the most exciting moments of my 3-4 years of watching Melee were when the game went off stage.

I'd say it's best to give the game a few months for people to a) learn the new mechanics and b) learn the new characters and how the returning characters have changed before we make any crazy thoughts about the game. Also maybe I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain other FD variants of the stages have different blast zones. Battlefield, normal FD and Yoshi's may have big blastzones, but there's other stages with much, much smaller. We've just got to be more willing as a community to accept change and new things rather than trying to force things so close to release.

It's why I'm heavily against sticking the game to 2 stocks right away. It's much harder to accept a move up in stocks than a move down. We had the invitational and SDCC tournaments with 3/4 stocks and the games were not that long. We need to let the best players play then work out what to do from there in time.

I'd also like to point out it's not impossible to smash and kill. I've seen on streams that Marth with a forward smash tipper can kill someone at 80-100%. I've done similar online with Lucina at 100-110%. The counter too can kill fairly early as it has a lot of pushing power.

Yeah, it's uncessary to make a change to 2 stock 5 minutes due to a perceived problem when we can't be sure there actually is one. Stick to tradition first and then adjust it only if necessary.

Although, it seems For Glory uses 2 stock 5 minutes, so there is an argument for it. It may be that they wanted shorter online matches, or it may be that this is how they designed the game to be played; longer but fewer stocks. Or a combination, of course.

I'd rather still stick to tradition though, and move down only if For Glory's rules look to make more sense later on.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I like it, the Off Stage fights are super compelling.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm just going to say, I understand people enjoying having to go off stage to get kills but why does it have to be the only option? I like having multiple ways to kill. If I hit you or combo you into a kill move that puts you out at the far edge you should have a hard time recovering or die from falling. I don't like the change mainly because it is the only viable option to do.

Bowser and Little Mac, to name some quick examples, seem to have very little trouble killing from onstage. I suspect that once everyone's had the game for more than literally a day or two, we'll be able to relatively neatly sort everyone into the "onstage kill ability" and "offstage kill ability" categories. Some will end up being in both, no doubt, and some may not be in either.

Stale moves may also play a large role, depending on their specifics.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I'm just going to say, I understand people enjoying having to go off stage to get kills but why does it have to be the only option? I like having multiple ways to kill. If I hit you or combo you into a kill move that puts you out at the far edge you should have a hard time recovering or die from falling. I don't like the change mainly because it is the only viable option to do.

Though, it isn't the only option I think. Like people said before, you could just wait until you rack their damage up to the kill percentages to kill them. I personally think it makes sense for gimping to be the only method of a "fast kill" because in that instance you are putting yourself on the line for the kill. Sure, you could say that some smashes are unsafe enough for them to count as well, but you could also potentially survive the attack depending on your percentage. If you are going off the stage to kill someone, it becomes easier to make mistakes. After all, it isn't just about hitting the guy, you have to make it back as well.

This is also disregards a lot of the moves that do kill at lower percentages like Jigglypuffs rest killing at 50-80%. I can't remember on the top of my head. The more heavyweight/heavy hitters also probably have the ability to kill at lower percentages as well. Maybe the light-middleweights will focus on gimping while the heavyweights focus on just staying on stage. Could be interesting.

I do think people have a choice. They can play offensively and kill them through gimping. Or, they can play defensively and get there kill through waiting for just the right moment and make sure they don't come back. I think it's up to the player.

 

[Bladeviper]

Though, it isn't the only option I think. Like people said before, you could just wait until you rack their damage up to the kill percentages to kill them. I personally think it makes sense for gimping to be the only method of a "fast kill" because in that instance you are putting yourself on the line for the kill. Sure, you could say that some smashes are unsafe enough for them to count as well, but you could also potentially survive the attack depending on your percentage. If you are going off the stage to kill someone, it becomes easier to make mistakes. After all, it isn't just about hitting the guy, you have to make it back as well.

This is also disregards a lot of the moves that do kill at lower percentages like Jigglypuffs rest killing at 50-80%. I can't remember on the top of my head. The more heavyweight/heavy hitters also probably have the ability to kill at lower percentages as well. Maybe the light-middleweights will focus on gimping while the heavyweights focus on just staying on stage. Could be interesting.

I do think people have a choice. They can play offensively and kill them through gimping. Or, they can play defensively and get there kill through waiting for just the right moment and make sure they don't come back. I think it's up to the player.

i think this also works well since most of the heavyweights have pretty bad recoveries when compared to the rest of the roster which might make them easier to gimp

 

[Roxas215]

I dont think people understand the real problem here. Everyone is saying (The offstage game) and comparing it to melee. It;s tottaly different In melee(And PM) You can follow up throws tilts etc OFFSTAGE to confirm that KO. In this game any offensive move you do after around 95% the oppenent gets sent too far to follow up. So while the first half of the stock is interesting to watch(Short combos/reads etc) The 2nd half is VERY BORING to watch as it's just bascially ping pong back and forth until someone dies. Thats not exciting.

The new ledge mechanics suck as well. Maybe if the inital grab didnt grant invincibility and u get trumped and follow up from that it would be better as you would have to think do i grab the edge or do i go for the stage. But honestly theres nothing to fear from the inital grab. From there u just get back on the stage and continue to play. Between the HUGE blast zones and the lack of proper edge hogging PLUS down momentum canceling this is gonna be a real problem. God forbid if Bowser really does become a thing...........


Im willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and wait til the Wii U version. It's very possible that people aren't controlling their character to the best of their ability on a 3ds with the lack of a thumb and c stick. However from what i've seen the past few days im really not liking at all how long people are living.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I dont think people understand the real problem here. Everyone is saying (The offstage game) and comparing it to melee. It;s tottaly different In melee(And PM) You can follow up throws tilts etc OFFSTAGE to confirm that KO. In this game any offensive move you do after around 95% the oppenent gets sent too far to follow up. So while the first half of the stock is interesting to watch(Short combos/reads etc) The 2nd half is VERY BORING to watch as it's just bascially ping pong back and forth until someone dies. Thats not exciting.

The new ledge mechanics suck as well. Maybe if the inital grab didnt grant invincibility and u get trumped and follow up from that it would be better as you would have to think do i grab the edge or do i go for the stage. But honestly theres nothing to fear from the inital grab. From there u just get back on the stage and continue to play. Between the HUGE blast zones and the lack of proper edge hogging PLUS down momentum canceling this is gonna be a real problem. God forbid if Bowser really does become a thing...........

Actually a player on the stage can edgeguard by timing a grab right after the recovering player grabs, thus kicking him off and then proceed to hit him or spike him or whatnot.

 

[Bladeviper]

I dont think people understand the real problem here. Everyone is saying (The offstage game) and comparing it to melee. It;s tottaly different In melee(And PM) You can follow up throws tilts etc OFFSTAGE to confirm that KO. In this game any offensive move you do after around 95% the oppenent gets sent too far to follow up. So while the first half of the stock is interesting to watch(Short combos/reads etc) The 2nd half is VERY BORING to watch as it's just bascially ping pong back and forth until someone dies. Thats not exciting.

The new ledge mechanics suck as well. Maybe if the inital grab didnt grant invincibility and u get trumped and follow up from that it would be better as you would have to think do i grab the edge or do i go for the stage. But honestly theres nothing to fear from the inital grab. From there u just get back on the stage and continue to play. Between the HUGE blast zones and the lack of proper edge hogging PLUS down momentum canceling this is gonna be a real problem. God forbid if Bowser really does become a thing...........


Im willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and wait til the Wii U version. It's very possible that people aren't controlling their character to the best of their ability on a 3ds with the lack of a thumb and c stick. However from what i've seen the past few days im really not liking at all how long people are living.

i just think people have not learned the best ways to kill on stage yet, ive seen that several characters have moves that can kill around 70-80% on most of the cast, things like robins and lucina's up smash can kill off the top and things like that

edit: also i think people are going to learn to be more aware of the stale moves going forward and that will lead to earlier on stage kills too

 

[Roxas215]

Actually a player on the stage can edgeguard by timing a grab right after the recovering player grabs, thus kicking him off and then proceed to hit him or spike him or whatnot.

So your saying a player can wait on stage for the oppenent to grab. Then quickly run to the ledge and grab it thus knocking him off and still have time to spike him? I dont see how this is posisble if it's the initial ledge grab from the recovering player. He/She has invinbility for a short time form the inital grab right?

 

[Bladeviper]

So your saying a player can wait on stage for the oppenent to grab. Then quickly run to the ledge and grab it thus knocking him off and still have time to spike him? I dont see how this is posisble if it's the initial ledge grab from the recovering player. He/She has invinbility for a short time form the inital grab right?

only while on the ledge you lose it if you get trumped

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

So your saying a player can wait on stage for the oppenent to grab. Then quickly run to the ledge and grab it thus knocking him off and still have time to spike him? I dont see how this is posisble if it's the initial ledge grab from the recovering player. He/She has invinbility for a short time form the inital grab right?

What Bladeviper said, and actually it shouldn't be that hard (though depends on characters). You wouldn't be on the ground and wait for them to grab, you could stall in the air or jump off and time it just right.

Sounds hard, but I think that's cool - edgehogging in a way is still in the game, just riskier, harder, but also more rewarding and thus cool if someone does it successfully. Although they don't just fall their their death and you have to follow it up if you want to confirm the kill, it would be more climatic and exciting in that sense because the edgeguarding would continue.

Hoping the edgeguarding game will turn into something like this when players get good X)

 

[NondairyDanzig]

That wouldn't work. The person recovering can just mash R to roll onto the stage as soon as they grab ledge, then the edgeguarder is now in the worse position.

 

[Bladeviper]

That wouldn't work. The person recovering can just mash R to roll onto the stage as soon as they grab ledge, then the edgeguarder is now in the worse position.

you would have to time it, they can mash r but they wont act til the invincibility frames are up so you should be able to trump them before they roll on the stage

 

[Goesasu]

This game encourages offstage play. Now you have to chase your pray to earn the kill, this is as aggressive as smash can get.

Stop complaining and realise that we have been given the aggressive game we always wanted, going offstage for the kill is a lot more entertaining than grabbing the ledge to stop opponents recovery.

Sakurai listened the competitive community and he gave them what they needed not what they wanted, he is a genius.

PD: Spelling checked.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

you would have to time it, they can mash r but they wont act til the invincibility frames are up so you should be able to trump them before they roll on the stage

I just tested with a friend in the demo. You can definitely roll before invincibility ends. It looks like the roll has a little startup time, but you can't be trumped during that time. The other player just grabs ledge and you roll onto the stage. I'm quite sure it's not possible to trump someone mashing roll, but if you can the timing would be unrealistically tight to be used effectively.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

This game encourages offstage play. Now you gave to chace your pray to earn the kill, this is as aggresive as smash can get.

Stop complaining and realice that we have been given the agresive game we always wanted, going offstage for the kill is a lot more entertaining than grabbing the ledge to stop opponents recovery.

Sakurai listen the competitive community and he gives them what they needed not what they wanted, he is a genius.

1. Spelling
2. I agree that complaining seems a bit much, but I can understand the negative reaction. This is a big change and people don't know how to deal with it yet.

I do agree though that Sakurai and the smash team did put together something beautiful.