I'm quite a few weeks late on this. Very useful indeed, enough for me to consider using upB2 for its safety once you're close to the ledge.
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Gunner Style Discussion
- Thread starter GamerGuy09
- Start date
dbwithlemon
Smash Apprentice
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- Sep 2, 2014
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Have to agree, I've been happy with Lunar Launch, but this may make me reconsider.
zephyrnereus
Smash Journeyman
since right now the big tournaments are going with default movesets, whats your opinion on 1111? I tried it and honestly, I'm not really liking it much. I feel that its hard to rack up damage fast and kill with this set unless you can bait the opponent to fall into a fully charged shot. the lunar launch is fine for recovery, but it just feels useless damage wise. if anything, it can be used as a sonic spring edgeguard, but it pops enemies up which usually helps most opponents to recover. flame pillar just feels to slow for me for what its intended to use which is to keep enemies out. I dunno, I just feel the 1111 build doesn't have much synergy like other moves.
dbwithlemon
Smash Apprentice
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I think Gunners moves are solid enough that it's harder to make one completely non-viable, but 1111 is definitely not optimal.
I would see this build being more of a close combat figher oddly enough. Fair and Flame pillar to cover your approach, and keep a charged shot ready for punishes and edge guards.
Gunner has some decent normal attacks, and the range on smashes and aerials is hard to beat.
I would love to see bomb drop in this set, but reflector is never a bad option.
I would see this build being more of a close combat figher oddly enough. Fair and Flame pillar to cover your approach, and keep a charged shot ready for punishes and edge guards.
Gunner has some decent normal attacks, and the range on smashes and aerials is hard to beat.
I would love to see bomb drop in this set, but reflector is never a bad option.
An online tournament 2 days from now will be organized by Events2Compete/Hypest/RTGN. It regards the mii fighters saying that they will be allowed, but the conditions are:
This is where I found the info, scroll down a bit, and you should see it - http://www.events2compete.com/
Thoughts?
- Can only use 1111, 2222, or 3333 setups.
- The guest miis' default sizes only
- Mii brawler is guest C, swordfighter is guest B, gunner is guest F
- Mii name must be the name of the setup (ex: Using setup 2222, your mii's name has to be 2222)
- If you change loadouts during counterpicking, you have to announce the name of the loadout you're changing to.
This is where I found the info, scroll down a bit, and you should see it - http://www.events2compete.com/
Thoughts?
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dbwithlemon
Smash Apprentice
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I think customs should be allowed across the board, no restrictions.
That being said...
Considering they aren't allowing custom moves for other characters. I think allowing all 3 sets is a good move. Compared to Apex which is strictly 1111, the 2222 and 3333 options do make some mii's usable.
As I mentioned in another thread, 1111 isnt' terrible, just not good. Can make for a decent malee character oddly enough
I'm torn between 2222 and 3333
2222 has laser to force the approach, and bomb to punish any rushdown. Stealth can help you keep the pressure on when they're off stage, which is good as with Cannon Uppercut, you don't want to chase.
3333 has Grenade, which is enough to base a character around all on its own. Add in missles and you can wall people out and camp quite well. Recovery isn't fantastic, but not terrible. And vortex, which will be very situational.
I'd probably take 2222 with 3333 if heavy camping was needed.
That being said...
Considering they aren't allowing custom moves for other characters. I think allowing all 3 sets is a good move. Compared to Apex which is strictly 1111, the 2222 and 3333 options do make some mii's usable.
As I mentioned in another thread, 1111 isnt' terrible, just not good. Can make for a decent malee character oddly enough
I'm torn between 2222 and 3333
2222 has laser to force the approach, and bomb to punish any rushdown. Stealth can help you keep the pressure on when they're off stage, which is good as with Cannon Uppercut, you don't want to chase.
3333 has Grenade, which is enough to base a character around all on its own. Add in missles and you can wall people out and camp quite well. Recovery isn't fantastic, but not terrible. And vortex, which will be very situational.
I'd probably take 2222 with 3333 if heavy camping was needed.
Shog
Smash Ace
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Just want to say that Mii Gunner is one of the best characters I have ever played in Smash Bros. (Movepool wise, speed is fine, range is incredible good, great B moves), too bad they are ugly as hell.
Good luck and winning to anyone playing them though. It is a great character
Good luck and winning to anyone playing them though. It is a great character
mimgrim
Smash Hero
3xx2 will be the future for Gunner when Miis are allowed to go to their full potential. I leave Side and Up blank because those are pretty much player preference and based on what you want to do. Nade and Bomb, however, are, in my humble opinion, completely superior over their other options. Personally I run 3222 but that's because I want to ensue fear into my opponent (you have to be extremely cautious of this build because Neutral, Side, and Down can all kill and Nade can combo into moves from pretty much any percent and Bomb at low percents and Up becomes a very legit and threatening OoS option), but their are legit reasons to run the Sides or Ups.
I think I've gotten to a point where I'm starting to grasp some mastery of the character.
For Mii Gunner, I mentioned that his largest weakness was that low damage from moves resulted in low damage racking and difficulty in getting kills. After another month of practice and a few tests vs. tournament-level humans, I was able to consistently land many combos, often times getting 15-30+ of safe damage from a variety of moves.
Nair has medium speed at ~frame 8, but it covers him and autocancels into attacks
Jab is fram 5 and some 3-4 frame attacks can hit before jab3, but it is easy to cancel the jab into other attacks such as utilt, dtilt, or another jab and you're always at frame advantage to block an attack. You can cancel jab1 and jab2.
Dthrow->nair combos at low percents and dthrow->uair combos at higher percents
Fair combos into the majority of his moveset. At low percents, fair-> dash attack, dsmash, and grab are my favorites. At mid % and above, you can combo 3-4 fairs into each other
For killing, the initial hit of the frame 5 utilt can kill around 120-130, which is pretty rad. A simple fair slide into utilt is pretty easy to do.
Facing center stage from the edge, frame 9 dsmash can kill at 90-100
Uair covers the full air dodge duration, making it a common kill at the top ~70-90. Uthrow is an easy setup if the blaster hits.
You can SDI Usmash, but it still kills around 110 and it's relatively fast at ~frame 11. It's really difficult to escape if the first hit lands against a grounded opponent.
Dtilt is pretty decent at high rage, too, when used at a range where utilt would miss and dsmash might get blocked.
Then of course, there's fsmash at the edge. It sucks for damage, but consistent above 100 at the edge and safe with a grenade setup. I find dsmash easier to land, though.
The above are without the grenade and missile specials. With them, you can apply insane pressure and safe damage. Missile deals moderate shield damage, bomb drop deals extreme shield damage, and grenade keeps you in shield. Bomb drop->dtilt can destroy a nearly full shield. Since you have full aerial movement with grenade and bomb drop while retaining fast fall speeds, smart use of regular B and B-reverse allows complete control over your arsenal. I found it easiest to mix between grenade and bomb for the best offense, with a mix of missile on the side. It is easy to combo a fair, grenade, or bomb drop out of other projectiles.
Offstage is where he arguably excels the most. You can send off grenades, bombs, or missiles and edgeguard offstage with fair or nair. UpB 2 can also be used as an incredibly quick spike offstage. You can go deep and return with a double jump + fair and it will kill if it hits. You can also choose to cover most ledge return options and relax at the edge.
For Mii Gunner, I mentioned that his largest weakness was that low damage from moves resulted in low damage racking and difficulty in getting kills. After another month of practice and a few tests vs. tournament-level humans, I was able to consistently land many combos, often times getting 15-30+ of safe damage from a variety of moves.
Nair has medium speed at ~frame 8, but it covers him and autocancels into attacks
Jab is fram 5 and some 3-4 frame attacks can hit before jab3, but it is easy to cancel the jab into other attacks such as utilt, dtilt, or another jab and you're always at frame advantage to block an attack. You can cancel jab1 and jab2.
Dthrow->nair combos at low percents and dthrow->uair combos at higher percents
Fair combos into the majority of his moveset. At low percents, fair-> dash attack, dsmash, and grab are my favorites. At mid % and above, you can combo 3-4 fairs into each other
For killing, the initial hit of the frame 5 utilt can kill around 120-130, which is pretty rad. A simple fair slide into utilt is pretty easy to do.
Facing center stage from the edge, frame 9 dsmash can kill at 90-100
Uair covers the full air dodge duration, making it a common kill at the top ~70-90. Uthrow is an easy setup if the blaster hits.
You can SDI Usmash, but it still kills around 110 and it's relatively fast at ~frame 11. It's really difficult to escape if the first hit lands against a grounded opponent.
Dtilt is pretty decent at high rage, too, when used at a range where utilt would miss and dsmash might get blocked.
Then of course, there's fsmash at the edge. It sucks for damage, but consistent above 100 at the edge and safe with a grenade setup. I find dsmash easier to land, though.
The above are without the grenade and missile specials. With them, you can apply insane pressure and safe damage. Missile deals moderate shield damage, bomb drop deals extreme shield damage, and grenade keeps you in shield. Bomb drop->dtilt can destroy a nearly full shield. Since you have full aerial movement with grenade and bomb drop while retaining fast fall speeds, smart use of regular B and B-reverse allows complete control over your arsenal. I found it easiest to mix between grenade and bomb for the best offense, with a mix of missile on the side. It is easy to combo a fair, grenade, or bomb drop out of other projectiles.
Offstage is where he arguably excels the most. You can send off grenades, bombs, or missiles and edgeguard offstage with fair or nair. UpB 2 can also be used as an incredibly quick spike offstage. You can go deep and return with a double jump + fair and it will kill if it hits. You can also choose to cover most ledge return options and relax at the edge.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Can someone explain how the Uppercut tech works exactly? Not how do it, as I get that, but just what exactly it does as the small explanation in this thread doesn't explain it that good. What I think the poster meant was that it creates a hitbox at the ledge? Does the hitbox stay there until triggered or...? How big is it?
Testing it out in the lab hasn't been working out so good.
Testing it out in the lab hasn't been working out so good.
The hitbox itself is the same as using up-b in midair. Not quite sure on the duration, but all I know is that it doesn't last long.
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zephyrnereus
Smash Journeyman
its more to catch people looming towards the stage than getting them from below. the spike hitbox comes out really fast and it's pretty wide, though not as large on the vertical side. I say you should always do this because you're throwing out a spike and its pretty safe to do due to how fast you grab the ledge. it may be ok to get a little deeper to try and get the spike if they're lower down, but due to the way the edge just vacuums people towards them, it may be hard to pull it off. I have done it before, so I know for sure that its still viable.
by the way, the way uppercut works is, it lets out a massive explosion that stuns and spikes opponents on the ground and air, and if done close to the body, the uppercut hitbox comes out right after to send enemies skywards. the upwards strike kills around 115% on the ground and the spike kills much earlier if done low enough. it also has a very high priority.
by the way, the way uppercut works is, it lets out a massive explosion that stuns and spikes opponents on the ground and air, and if done close to the body, the uppercut hitbox comes out right after to send enemies skywards. the upwards strike kills around 115% on the ground and the spike kills much earlier if done low enough. it also has a very high priority.
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mimgrim
Smash Hero
I could probably make a thread about it. Have also been thinking about making a compendium thread of known ATs for Gunner but still want more clarification on this Uppercut thing first.
So like the hit-box is only active for as long as Gunner is doing the animation? This is where I'm most confused. In your first post about you made it sound like the hitbox would stay on the ledge even after Gunner is done with the animation? Now it sounds like he's just hitting with spike hitbox during the animation? Which leads me to believe it really isn't an AT?
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Kinda need to test this more but, you can use Uair to yank airborne opponents (within range) towards the ground if you get it to connect while you're in a downward motion. An easy way to do this is jump + Uair + fastfall at the start of Uair. Once Gunner's back hits the ground and starts getting up, you should be able to quickly get in a grab, jab, Utilt or Dtilt while the opponent is flinching/being pulled down from Uair.
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mimgrim
Smash Hero
Yea. All multi-hit moves work like that. They drag the opponent down until the final hit.
I believe that jab tends to send people away.
I won a ~30 man local using Mii Gunner at a customs legal tournament, and it confirmed a lot of my thoughts on the strength of the character. He is definitely very high up there.
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
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Most tournaments nowadays are using the 'moveset 1 artwork guest' rule, so if you plan on using it in tournaments make sure to practice with that setup. However, for casual play there is a vast number of setups that you can run, so I will just explain which options you shouldn't run:
Neutral:
These are all viable options due to their different utilities which are of use to Mii Gunner (1: good recovery-to-ground utility and good recovery distance; 2: aerial spike means that it works well in conjunction with the low recoveries forced by Grenade Launch; 3: Overall the best option for recovery at the cost of a hitbox, providing great survivability to Mii Gunner).
Down:
These are all viable options due to their different utilities which are of use to Mii Gunner (1: Shine and reflection allows the combat of all opposing projectile users effectively, as well as making it a good option to get opponents which are right up in your face to a good distance to eat your projectiles; 2: the edgeguarding utility and high priority makes it a great option to make life harder for your opponent; 3: allows for healing and psuedo-wavedash, acting as a delayed perfect pivot for mixups with attacks).
Feel free to argue your case if you disagree with any what I said; I am open to being proven wrong
Neutral:
- Charge Shot: Charge Shot is literally a worse version of Samus' Charge Shot. It lacks the kill power of its superior counterpart in exchange for an electric effect which doesn't even lock its target in place. It is a pretty awful option to use if you have the option to do so.
- Laser Blaze: This is Fox's lasers with a low fire rate and slightly more damage. While this sounds good on paper, the low fire rate means that it isn't a particularly good option for racking up damage, and the lack of a flinch provided by Falco's lasers makes its low fire rate completely detrimental to its use. In addition, its lack of use with B-reversals means that it can't be used very well for mixups, making it a poor choice.
- Stealth Burst: Stealth Burst is good in theory, but poor in practice. There is no situation where I would rather use this over Grenade Launch, FAir or Bomb Drop due to its un-curving trajectory and high predictability, as well as it lacking a trapping effect. This makes it a poor option to use.
- Gunner Missile: While this works well with Samus, this is due to the higher power and knockback for said user. It means that Samus can effectively use it to stop approaches and create a wall of pain (something which, unlike Mii Gunner, she lacks otherwise). This means that it lacks utility for Mii Gunner due to it already having a better way to create a wall of pain and the low power and knockback making it a generally poor option to use over the already good spacing tool that is Flame Pillar.
These are all viable options due to their different utilities which are of use to Mii Gunner (1: good recovery-to-ground utility and good recovery distance; 2: aerial spike means that it works well in conjunction with the low recoveries forced by Grenade Launch; 3: Overall the best option for recovery at the cost of a hitbox, providing great survivability to Mii Gunner).
Down:
These are all viable options due to their different utilities which are of use to Mii Gunner (1: Shine and reflection allows the combat of all opposing projectile users effectively, as well as making it a good option to get opponents which are right up in your face to a good distance to eat your projectiles; 2: the edgeguarding utility and high priority makes it a great option to make life harder for your opponent; 3: allows for healing and psuedo-wavedash, acting as a delayed perfect pivot for mixups with attacks).
Feel free to argue your case if you disagree with any what I said; I am open to being proven wrong
AzuraSarah
Smash Cadet
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I argue with Charge Shot. It's actually a solid kill move, of which I find the gunner in need of desperately - Down tilt and Back air aren't always feasible.
It can combo for damage racking early on out of both forward throw (Around 25-35% depending on character) and forward tilt (Around about 40-50% depending on character and how far they are from Gunner).
With forward throw specifically, if charge shot is uncharged, it can jab lock for a followup into an up smash
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZJx5F0kTms Forward throw > charge shot > dash > up smash out of dash )
Charge shot can also be combo'd into from Flame Pillar ledge-guards at around 90-110% depending on character. If I see them get knocked back by my flame pillar spam at ledge in that percentage range, they pop right into the charge shot and can't jump or air dodge in time, which nets an easy kill.
It can also combo out of forward air at similiarish percents ( http://youtu.be/n87t1bN5r4k?t=57s ) though the timing for this is semi-strict, requiring buffered inputs (And an assumption that the forward air hits)
Charge shot also allows me to punish people who fail power shielding my forward airs too many times, threatening / causing shield breaks. (Bomb Drop into Charge Shot is also a serious, SERIOUS threat if they fail to power shield the bomb drop. Many a shield has been broken with this combination.)
It's also a good to use instead of a forward air after dropping from ledge and jumping to recover and is an excellent move to punish rolls, missed techs, backwards and stationary techs. It can also punish characters who recover over flame-pillar ledge guards (Lucario and Rosalina come to mind) which would otherwise go unpunished with Grenade Launch.
In specific matchups, it can also be used to punish characters attempting to use weaker projectiles by firing it through them.
Also, the act of having one charged makes opponents do weird things attempting to predict when it will be fired. If they stop predicting it, they'll get hit.
It can combo for damage racking early on out of both forward throw (Around 25-35% depending on character) and forward tilt (Around about 40-50% depending on character and how far they are from Gunner).
With forward throw specifically, if charge shot is uncharged, it can jab lock for a followup into an up smash
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZJx5F0kTms Forward throw > charge shot > dash > up smash out of dash )
Charge shot can also be combo'd into from Flame Pillar ledge-guards at around 90-110% depending on character. If I see them get knocked back by my flame pillar spam at ledge in that percentage range, they pop right into the charge shot and can't jump or air dodge in time, which nets an easy kill.
It can also combo out of forward air at similiarish percents ( http://youtu.be/n87t1bN5r4k?t=57s ) though the timing for this is semi-strict, requiring buffered inputs (And an assumption that the forward air hits)
Charge shot also allows me to punish people who fail power shielding my forward airs too many times, threatening / causing shield breaks. (Bomb Drop into Charge Shot is also a serious, SERIOUS threat if they fail to power shield the bomb drop. Many a shield has been broken with this combination.)
It's also a good to use instead of a forward air after dropping from ledge and jumping to recover and is an excellent move to punish rolls, missed techs, backwards and stationary techs. It can also punish characters who recover over flame-pillar ledge guards (Lucario and Rosalina come to mind) which would otherwise go unpunished with Grenade Launch.
In specific matchups, it can also be used to punish characters attempting to use weaker projectiles by firing it through them.
Also, the act of having one charged makes opponents do weird things attempting to predict when it will be fired. If they stop predicting it, they'll get hit.
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The main problem with running Charge Shot is that your losing out on grenade launch which is his best custom move. It provides mobility with b-reverses that allow you to move in and out, it does multiple hits on shields so you can trap opponents, it is a combo starter that leads into an easy 30% at low percents, and it does a whole lot more. Using charge shot instead of grenade drop is just limiting your options.
Nice writeup on charge shot from @
AzuraSarah
. I never thought about a lot of that. While Gunner's Charge Shot is worse than Samus', there are various setups to combo into it and Gunner doesn't seem to rely on it as much as Samus with the existence of fair and other zoning specials.
While grenade is the best special, it still depends on how Gunner's moveset flows. It may very well be possible that charge shot + bomb drop may work better than grenade + bomb drop depending on the circumstances. Bomb drop has ridiculous shield damage. I can see how Gunner with charge shot + bomb drop + any sideB can be a nightmare against shields.
I think Stealth Burst and Mii Missile are good long range options. Grenade can be intercepted if you're caught holding it too long, and it can go over the heads of shorter enemies when charged. I think stealth burst is better against opponents that rely on projectiles like Villager and Mega Man, while missile is better against physical attackers since it deals extra shield damage and can be combo'd off of it. Uncharged missiles, while slow, has a decent homing property against people returning offstage. I feel that flame pillar does what grenade and bomb drop already does better, though it is useful if you have a setup with neither grenade nor bomb drop.
When I tested Lazer Blaze, its DPS is better than Fox's at medium distance and above and it deals decent shield pushback/damage. I think it's objectively better than Fox's, but the other specials are simply more excellent.
AzuraSarah
. I never thought about a lot of that. While Gunner's Charge Shot is worse than Samus', there are various setups to combo into it and Gunner doesn't seem to rely on it as much as Samus with the existence of fair and other zoning specials.While grenade is the best special, it still depends on how Gunner's moveset flows. It may very well be possible that charge shot + bomb drop may work better than grenade + bomb drop depending on the circumstances. Bomb drop has ridiculous shield damage. I can see how Gunner with charge shot + bomb drop + any sideB can be a nightmare against shields.
I think Stealth Burst and Mii Missile are good long range options. Grenade can be intercepted if you're caught holding it too long, and it can go over the heads of shorter enemies when charged. I think stealth burst is better against opponents that rely on projectiles like Villager and Mega Man, while missile is better against physical attackers since it deals extra shield damage and can be combo'd off of it. Uncharged missiles, while slow, has a decent homing property against people returning offstage. I feel that flame pillar does what grenade and bomb drop already does better, though it is useful if you have a setup with neither grenade nor bomb drop.
When I tested Lazer Blaze, its DPS is better than Fox's at medium distance and above and it deals decent shield pushback/damage. I think it's objectively better than Fox's, but the other specials are simply more excellent.
Damix91
Smash Journeyman
Imo Charge shot is too weak. It doesn't really kill until pretty high percents or quite deep off stage with requires a read. Also I can't seem to B-reverse it. I think in the end Charge shot/Laser Blaze/ Stealth Burst will see no use.
I don't really see the value in Lunar Launch over Arm Rocket either. The Oos isn't great, Oos USmash/Upb 2 or Oos Bair/Nair/Fair are much better and the recovery is quite linear and has no hitbox to protect you.
Homing missiles can help generate frametraps in some juggle/ long range situations so has some value imo.
I don't really see the value in Lunar Launch over Arm Rocket either. The Oos isn't great, Oos USmash/Upb 2 or Oos Bair/Nair/Fair are much better and the recovery is quite linear and has no hitbox to protect you.
Homing missiles can help generate frametraps in some juggle/ long range situations so has some value imo.
AzuraSarah
Smash Cadet
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Lunar Launch can stage-spike against recovering opponents. It knocks back opponents in the opposite direction to the move - Run off ledge and immediately up-B. Depending on match up can determine how strict your timing needs to be - The projectile has relatively low priority.
Damix91
Smash Journeyman
^^ IMO its pretty telegraphed and the opponent can just tech
ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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I've really fallen in love with Gunner's down2 (Bomb). It just comes out so fast and I never seem to get punished throwing it out on a whim.
On the other hand, I really hate Cannon uppercut. Awful recovery for a powerful melee attack on a spacing character boggles the mind. Am I missing something?
On the other hand, I really hate Cannon uppercut. Awful recovery for a powerful melee attack on a spacing character boggles the mind. Am I missing something?
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
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Yeah. Cannon is one of the better options as it gives Gunner more offensive presence offstage, allowing it to gimp slower/more predictable recoveries.
Also, 'cause I'm interested, how viable do you think that gunner is in customless tournaments (only 1111 with the default size is legal)? I think that gunner is reasonably viable (I'd expect it to end up in a middling tier) - although the lack of grenade hurts a lot - due to up, side and down 1 all being very viable options.
Also, 'cause I'm interested, how viable do you think that gunner is in customless tournaments (only 1111 with the default size is legal)? I think that gunner is reasonably viable (I'd expect it to end up in a middling tier) - although the lack of grenade hurts a lot - due to up, side and down 1 all being very viable options.
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Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
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It is good. Not as good as with the grenade, but good nonetheless
Shouldn't be too hard, as I used 3111/default before. Just swap nades for charge blast.It is good. Not as good as with the grenade, but good nonetheless
I think charge shot is really good with bomb drop, since you begin to accumulate many shield-breaking projectiles all at once. Mix in dtilt and missiles/stealth burst and that's some scary shield pressure.
Balgorxz
Smash Journeyman
Did someone knew about gunner's auto cancel slide?
This? (Using your gif)Did someone knew about gunner's auto cancel slide?
Yeah, done this plenty of times
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Balgorxz
Smash Journeyman
oh well then if everyone knows it then I guess there is no need to make a thread about this tech and its applications, welp time to libe some moreThis? (Using your gif)
Yeah, done this plenty of times