Q&A 'Guin Saga (DDD General/Q&A thread)

[Smooth Criminal]

Figured I'd get the ball rolling on some discussion for King DDD in P:M.

Thoughts? Impressions? Advice? Put it all here.

 

[Yobolight]

I like Dedede's upthrow.

 

[9Kplus1]

I like DDD's flubber

BBW is hawt

 

[Juushichi]

Bair->Grab is harder in this game.

 

[Gea]

So I don't really play this mod but I stumbled across this match and had a question. Does DDD suffer from the lack of killing aerials (fair seems to not really kill) that is going to slowly hurt him as a character?

I mean Fox lives to some pretty dumb %s to be landing such meaty hits. Short of gimping Fox, what could Fly have done to mitigate this? Does DDD have any reliable smash setups at kill range?

 

[Yurya]

Fair not being a strong killer is probably related to how easy it is for Dedede to fight offstage.
I think that fair (and all of Dedede's aerials) don't have high killing power onstage because Dedede could use them to kill at 60%ish offstage.
And DDD is built to gimp so I don't think fly had too much of a choice except to try and gimp.
However, Spacies recover so close to the stage and so quickly that DDD doesn't have the time to jump out and intercept them properly.
I would think DDD should use his D-smash out of a tech chase more in a match-up vs spacies as it a pretty good killer but I think the math-up itself leans towards Spacies mainly because Spacies recover quickly.

 

[hamyojo]

When you Waddle dash and angle the analog stick down as you dash the Waddle Dee/oo's end up right in front of you.
Is this new? It's nice.

 

[Stunts]

Hey guys, lets give the waddle dee from the victory animation his blue bandanna.

INSTANT GOD TIER

lol

 

[Tero.]

I love the new waddle dee angles
Finally wavedash waddle dee throw makes some sense, great

 

[McNinja]

Wow. Does nobody play Dedede?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I do, but I haven't played Project M against a live opponent yet. I'd rather leave the super theory bros. to those that are better qualified.

I'll probably post more in the future when I get some matches under my belt.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sebovich]

My first impressions of DDD was that no matter who I fought, I felt that I was at a constant disadvantage. He´s really slow, Bowser is too, but I feel he is MUCH better.

DDD while having deacent recovery, he is easy to edgeguard, since his UpB leaves him very vulnerable both on the way up/down and when finished cause of its lagtime (to arials, since the stars give little protection from ground attacks). Canceling the UpB mid-way is almost always out of the question, cause he´s left defenseless.

His best finishing move is imo his Down B, if you can charge it. Really good range, and quick as h*ll, and does good dmg and knockback. Other than that, I feel that his smashes for example are too slow to be used effieciently.

His bair is awesome though, for multiple purposes.

Im gonna play him some more, but these are just the initial thoughts.

 

[Shaya]

Dedede is sleeper top tier in his current iteration.
I think the only hard MUs for him right now are Fox/Falco. His risk/reward is completely skewed against every (other) character. He is definitely the best gimper in the game bar none.

 

[\Apples]

Wario beats the crap out of him. I know this because myself and one of my main dudes play both characters pretty often. It's pretty easy for Wario actually.

I don't think he's sleeper top tier, definitely not as good of a character as Wario overall, but I think he's pretty good.

 

[rjgbadger]

if falco is EVER forced to upB it should be an auto kill

DDD can be offstage so well...if only he had a wall cling.

at times i do find him almost too slow, but then i stop to think and remember about his ftilt

 

[RKM]

Hey everyone,
I decided to see what brawl people had been doing with D3 and I found this:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=id3QXwczsKg
What do you guys think?

 

[KOkingpin]

Wario beats the crap out of him. I know this because myself and one of my main dudes play both characters pretty often. It's pretty easy for Wario actually.

I don't think he's sleeper top tier, definitely not as good of a character as Wario overall, but I think he's pretty good.

KO vs Mr. Pickle 1
KO vs Mr. Pickle 2
KO vs Mr. Pickle 3
KO vs Mr. Pickle 4

Here some matches of that Match up. While pickle isn't reflex he is pretty darn good with wario.

With that being said I dont think Wario beats the crap out of him. Wario can be out spaced and Dedede can gimp the everlasting **** out of Wario. Dedede's Nair is equally as good as Wario's nair in every way except it doesn't have a second hit.

 

[Shaya]

The disjoint on Dedede's nair is kinda scary.

Also grab armor is how I deal with swords.

 

[McNinja]

Hey everyone,
I decided to see what brawl people had been doing with D3 and I found this:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=id3QXwczsKg
What do you guys think?

Is this in PM?!?

 

[RKM]

Is this in PM?!?

I think it is, I've sortof been able to do it, but its hard.
From the post itself:

You have to keep slightly tap the control stick to the side while in Jet Hammer charge. Don't tap it too hard because you won't get the "shuffle" effect to it to where it looks glitchy.
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=id3QXwczsKg

I don't recommend using this glitch in competitive play though because not even the better King Dededes can do it without getting punished. It's still nice to know that it's a glitch.
The only real good use for Jet Hammer is if you fastfall it while coming down to stage. It's still punishable but it serves as a good mindgame. Don't do this that often though.

 

[McNinja]

Huh. I think if someone doesn't expect it, it could scare the crap out of them when they see a rocket hammet weilding penguin charging toward them at Mach 5 speed.

I know I would just jump off the edge in sheer terror if I saw it.

 

[Vukasa]

Is this in PM?!?

Its not Project M, that vids been around almost since brawl released. Im not sure if its effects carried over into the mod or not though. Either way, its crazy tough to sweet spot it effectively in a real match.

 

[KOkingpin]

Its not Project M, that vids been around almost since brawl released. Im not sure if its effects carried over into the mod or not though. Either way, its crazy tough to sweet spot it effectively in a real match.

Its really not that hard to sweet spot it in PM though. I'm gonna test this out.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

A couple random, but hopefully helpful comments for anybody who still ever looks at this place:

As a lot of you have probably noticed, pressuring the opponent in a meaningful way when they're sitting on a platform and shielding can be difficult. However, on some of the common stages, short hop inhale on the main stage will hit an opponent on one of the low side platforms. For example, if Fox is on a side platform on Battlefield or Yoshi's, you can hit him with short hop inhale from below, which is nice since none of DDD's other aerial options are terribly threatening against a Fox shielding there. Full hop inhale obviously can also work fine, and comes out just as quickly, but I think it's generally better to short hop the inhale; for one thing, spitting the opponent at the edge is more threatening if you do it from a lower position; getting spat offstage when you already start at the height of a side platform is less threatening. That's not to say the full hop variant doesn't have its benefits; for example, short hop inhale won't work when dealing with platforms as high as those on Dreamland, whereas full hop will. Full hop inhale might also catch the opponent if they try to jump off the platform, which short hop inhale is unlikely to do.

My other random comment for the day -- which is something I think a lot of people likely already know, but I want to articulate it for those who don't -- is that nair should generally be your go-to anti-air aerial rather than uair. It comes out faster, hits a wider area, and hits deceptively far above DDD (it hits higher than it did in 2.1). For example, nair can cleanly beat a Falco dair from above. Uair is still nice in that reaches really far, but if you're just looking for something to quickly and reliably protect yourself from above, nair will generally function better.

 

[Shaya]

Nair can beat falco dair? like, I've been privy to nair trading with EVERYTHING but i haven't had much luck on winning (unless obviously I used it first).

A lot of my dedede play is still heavily heavily focused on waddles. I've also started to use his back air a lot. It's hitbox (in the "foot is not there, then suddenly it is ENLARGED, then no longer there) is probably a lot more of a go-to aerial than I was giving it credit for.

What I would do for Dedede to have a faster jump squat. My god though. That or a slightly faster ground move (jab or dtilt maybe?). Like Smash 64, dedede's dair has that 'spike' box that Kirby does, but its really really really ****ing hard to hit with.

Back to waddles though... You have a half of BF length waveland during a rethrow of a waddle. Trying to incorporate it into my game more has proven a bit iffy with D3's item grab hitboxes, especially from the air. As you have such little lag after a rethrow, you can get silly things like toss -> upsmash or guaranteed grabs if they're hit on shield. I've gotten a little more used to throwing waddles downwards (which I originally thought was kind of useless). But on the contrary it's great if there's already a waddle dee on the ground, as any interaction between two waddles has a rocket explosion which reignites hitboxes.

So in terms of development, I've gone from using one waddle to playing with two waddles on stage at once if I'm able to set it up. It's really rewarding and fun mechanics to work with, so I recommend anyone using dedede to practise with them hard.

 

[GMaster171]

Yo D3 boards. Everything here seems dead, and I've recently picked up the King. So far my experience has been having lots of fun tech chasing with d-throw, gimping like a boss and surviving to 150 all day. Fav followup for pure damage is a d-smash after a half tech read (I say half cause i have to predict one of two things, d-smash covers 3 of 4 options when positioned right). not the best thing possible, but still hella annoying to the other guy.

D3 is fun. Expect streams/vids with mine every once in awhile. Am still learning so don't kill me, but I've done fairly well so far.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Does anyone have any tips for Waddle-dashing as a recovery. I have a relatively hard time doing it and advice would be welcomed.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Throw a waddle upwards right after using a mid-air jump and then air-dodge into it. It can be hard to intercept when recovering high and can still be useful at lower heights. It is worth noting that you are often pretty vulnerable when you zoom forward, but if you think the opponent expects you to do that, then you can just let the waddle fall and recovery normally.

 

[leelue]

Also, in case this isn't obvious, you can do it a second time if you feel like expending your final jump, without using another waddle.

Also, if you're off camera, pay attention to the noise since you sadly can't toss Gordos. If you are on autopilot you'll airdodge to death.

 

[Airrider]

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[MegaGuy]

Quick question: Does a SHFFL Dair on an opponent who misses a tech work like a jab reset? Haven't had the opportunity to properly test it, but it seems that it does. If so, it's a way faster way of resetting someone who messes up after getting D-thrown. That is all

 

[Ripple]

I've picked up DDD. he's so good. I love it.

 

[9bit_alt]

So I posted this in another thread. Here it is:

Some random DDD ideas for improvement:​

• • A Warrio-like running grab (animation could be similar to dash attack for mixups)
• • • And/or change his nuetral-B to suck opponent into a grab hold (and probably make it faster to start up)
  • Standing Up-B (on the ground) does something else. Sorta like Link/TL have. This will also help his OoS game and give his Up-B a reason to ever be used
  • Increase all or most of his hitbox radii like Oro suggested (can you imagine the Fairs!?)
  • A perfectly-timed Up-B cancel (perhaps using the L-cancelling timing) should have less landing lag
  • Eating your own Waddles with neutral-B heals you a little, or you can spit them at opponents as stars (or both: hitting Down on control stick would eat and absorb)
  • If you smack your Waddle and it flies into the opponent, they should take damage / knockback
  • Ability to use up additional jumps while holding Down-B hammer
  • Using diagonal-down on control stick while holding Down-B hammer allows backwards walking
  • Change exhale trajectory on neutral-B to facilitate better comboing out of it

I like the idea of being able to act out of Up-B like Snake and Sonic, but I'm fine with it how it is now. Though I would like to be able to cancel out of it using L or R (basically any shield or grab buttons) in addition to just Down. Sometimes when I push down, apparently I also slightly push in a direction, because I somehow end up facing the wrong way :o (this would also stop DeDeDe from accidentally holding Down too long as not grabbing the ledge).​

These are off-the-top-of-the-head ideas and haven't been seriously thought-through for potential balance issues, but what do you guys think?

Update: a few more

• Give him his 4th air jump back
• 3 Waddles out simultaneously

 

[Shaya]

If you smack your waddle and it flies into an opponent, they can/do take damage knockup IIRC.

Neutral B is also very strong for edge guarding and the distance it travels is almost impossible to not get faired from. Imo in general it's kinda brawlie, but with relative usage of timing its near-guaranteed fair set up.

 

[9bit_alt]

Fun Stuff

With 2 exceptions, DeDeDe can make it under every single stage* that can be traversed from underneath. He can make it from the farthest possible platform on one side to the farthest possible platform on the other**, even if it doesn't have a ledge to grab. Even Rumble Falls and Jungle Japes.

* See individual stage descriptions for more on this (Corneria specifically)
** Not including Hyrule Temple, obviously. But as an example of no-ledge stages, he can do Skyworld from side cloud to side cloud and Norfair from side platform to side platform.

To do: throw a Waddle near the edge so that it walks off. Follow it off at the same time and glide toss it so you go backwards, toward other side of stage, use 3 air jumps plus Up-B to reach goal! Win.

On some stages you have to Up-B in one direction and down-cancel it in the opposite, but the ledges can be grabbed. I don't have any recording gear but it would be cool if someone made an Under The Sea style video montage of this.

List of stages
Metal Cavern - standard
Halberd - standard
Norfair - can be done from side platform to side platform, farthest distance plus no ledge to grab
Rumble Falls - hard, but can be done ledge-to-ledge
Skyloft - pretty standard, but left-to-right is a little harder due to the elevation difference
Skyworld - main platform is standard, can be done cloud to cloud, farthest distance plus no ledge to grab
Battlefield - standard
Final Destination - standard, just have to go low
Shamsville - standard
Dreamland - standard
Rainbow Cruise - mostly standard, ledges are a little weird
Port Town Aero Dive - uh, standard minus the ledges
Frigate Orpheon - standard minus ledges to grab
Jungle Falls - can be done from far end ledge to far end ledge. Hard one, but totally possible.
Big Blue - the ship is small enough to make the distance, the cars underneath make it a pain in the ass though
Delfino Plaza - standard
Lylat Cruise - standard
Kongo Jungle - standard

(Hyrule) Temple - right-to-left can be made past the tiny platform at the bottom, on to the grassy part to its left. Left-to-right can be made past the bigger bottom platform and into the little tunnel area. He can also make it underneath the main bottom platform from both directions! And I was just able to make it from the top left to the bottom small stone platform! That's going under the main bottom platform, but landing on the left side of the stone platform. Too good.

Corneria - right-to-left can be made to landing on the gun. and I actually managed to get hit by a weak blast from the gun once during my up-B attempt to reach the far left ledge, which allowed me to use my up-B again and make the grab. Left-to-right can be made using a different technique than I described above

Brinstar - standard, but I haven't tested it when all the connectors are broken.

 

[E2xD]

I think it is, I've sortof been able to do it, but its hard.
From the post itself:

...Dafuq? I can't believe he could do this. Holy ****. I know it could be ineffective in tournaments, but the intimidation factor is off the charts.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Kind of old, but just noticed this now:

*Corneria left-to-right cannot be done incorrect, but Corneria right-to-left can, if you get hit by a light blast from the gun (not the full blast) and use a second Up-B after you get hit, but you can make it on to the gun easily without getting shot. you can do right-to-left without getting shot, too

See video.

 

[9bit_alt]

Oh Fly. You're the best. You're the reason I picked up DeDeDe.

 

[E2xD]

That was beautiful. Holy crap!

 

[Airrider]

I've notived that a lot of DDD players don't JC grab. What are the benefits of not doing so?