Grabs reworked idea

[The Cape]

Basically something that I thought up while playing DS was to rework the grabs in the game to better suit the playstyle of the character. I can use Sonic's frame data as a reference as I have it on hand to possibly make this point to others.

Sonic grabs:
Standing:
Grab 7-8
End 30

Running:
Grab 11-12
End 40

Pivot:
Grab 11-12
End 40

So basically by the information you see, Sonic's standing grab is always the best option in terms of speed. However, his pivot grab has a really nice slide to it, and his running grab is easier to do while charging at the opponent (and keeps momentum). What I am suggesting is to take all the characters in the game and rework their grabs using animation swaps or frame speed changes to make the grab that is best for their playstyle to be their best grab in terms of speed as well. In Sonic's case I would think to change the data on his standing grab with either his running or pivot grab to give him a more varied use. This would make his grabs turn out more like this:

Sonic grabs (edited):
Standing:
Grab 11-12
End 40

Running:
Grab 7-8
End 30

Pivot:
Grab 11-12
End 40

I have compiled an inital list that I would like to see opinions on, that can really change the way this game can be played with grabs.

My initial thoughts would be as follows:
Pivots:
Diddy
Olimar
Sonic?
Fox
ZSS
Yoshi

Standing:
Ike
DDD
Lucario
Pit
Charizard
ROB
Snake
Wario
Wolf
Falcon
DK
Falco
Ganon
ICers
Kirby
Luigi
Mario
Marth
GW
Ness
Peach
Zelda
Sheik
TL

Running:
Lucas
MK
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Sonic?
Bowser
Jiggs
Samus

Link = ??


Does this seem like a good idea for Gold?

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd be interested to mess with it but DS made a good point about JC grabs that I think is applicable here. It was massive so I'll just paraphrase it.

It seems to me (maybe I TOTALLY am misunderstanding this) that you want to make every character have one, go-to grab. I think that is a poor idea. We have 4 types of grabs, each one has their own types of strengths and weaknesses. It is up to the player to decide which grab to use at which time. It just seems to me we are giving everyone one great grab instead of leaving them with the options they need to weigh in their head.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think you're miss understanding it. What Cape wants to is change the grabs so that they better fit the characters' play styles. Sonic is dashing ALL THE TIME, yet he's got a terrible dash grab? It isn't bad in the sense that SOMETIMES you'd want to DC grab instead, it's so bad that you'd ALWAYS want to DC grab instead.
Most characters obviously would not fit into this (thus, the large standing grab list), but it seems that a character's "best" grab should be the one that really fits with how they play when they're not grabbing. This grab change would encourage using grabs as a whole by improving the grab that the character already lends itself to using most, and taking away from the grab that the character uses the least (Sonic only uses standing grab because he can DC or Shield Cancel now, making it better than his dash grab at doing what a dash grab is supposed to do)

Although the more that I think about, the more I think that it would be better to simply lower the startup lag of those grabs, rather than switch the stats with another. This means that in Sonic's case, dash grab would come out just as fast (if not faster) than standing grab, but have much less ending lag making it less safe. The same would be true of Yoshi's pivot grab, ect. This would let us keep our grab diversity by maintaining most of the pros and cons of each grab, while improving the characters' grab games as a whole.

What do you think?

 

[goodoldganon]

Ah I understand it now. As I discussed with Cape in IRC it sounds intriguing. I'd be interested to mess with it. I'd rather mess with the frame data on the grabs though, like DS said. If we replace grabs (keeping with the Sonic example) we just made his standing grab switch with the crappy dash grab. Just edit the dash grab to be as fast or faster then the standing grab.

I really hate to take this topic but I have an idea about grabs. We discussed grab breaks and decided against it, but what about giving it to one character. For example, D3 is the grapple king. What about giving him the ability break grabs as well. I like giving characters unique buffs rather then, speed this up, up its KB. Buffs like Sonic's Spiking U-smash are much cooler.

 

[kupo15]

There is a problem with speeding up the start up of running grabs. You get a humongous slide.

 

[goodoldganon]

There is a problem with speeding up the start up of running grabs. You get a humongous slide.

Hahaha! Really? ****

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^That may be a result of the momentum code. We can already exclude specific actions from the code (disable code when Sonic is using down/side B for example), so maybe extending that to dash grabs may fix it.

Or maybe Sakurai's terrible programming comes back and it's some momentum given by the grab itself which would be extremely stupid.

 

[kupo15]

I would put my money on number two. I can't imagine the momentum code giving momentum to grabs

 

[Yeroc]

Try adding the speed on frame 2 or 3 then.

 

[leafgreen386]

I would put my money on number two. I can't imagine the momentum code giving momentum to grabs

So would I.

Although the more that I think about, the more I think that it would be better to simply lower the startup lag of those grabs, rather than switch the stats with another. This means that in Sonic's case, dash grab would come out just as fast (if not faster) than standing grab, but have much less ending lag making it less safe. The same would be true of Yoshi's pivot grab, ect. This would let us keep our grab diversity by maintaining most of the pros and cons of each grab, while improving the characters' grab games as a whole.

This. This, this, and more of this. I'd much rather see running grabs become more usable on their own than see them become more usable at the expense of standing grabs.

Although it was thrown around half-jokingly when it was mentioned, I actually think it might not be such a bad idea to just replace running grabs with standing grabs and then improve the standing grabs of those that had better running grabs. Who says we don't pull stuff from 64?

Also, while we're on the subject of grabs/throws, I wanna try universally speeding up throws again (as in endlag). Except... you know... doing it smartly so we don't end up glitching every other throw in the game this time.

 

[kupo15]

Although it was thrown around half-jokingly when it was mentioned, I actually think it might not be such a bad idea to just replace running grabs with standing grabs and then improve the standing grabs of those that had better running grabs. Who says we don't pull stuff from 64?
.

Yea, there is a problem with that. You get a humongous slide. I would endorse this for most but not all characters. Like, there is no reason for MK to lose his great running grab but falcon, Dk, ganon, marth ect should lose it