• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Grab infinites in Brawl?- Debate here (Videos added)

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,167
Location
somewhere sunny
MvC may be ancient but its competitive community is thriving and is the equivalent of our community as far as I know.
Doesn't mean we have to be exactly the same, does it?

Shuma Gorath's a cool guy, eh shoots eyeballs and doesn't afraid of anything, but oh wait, despite the huge roster in that game, nobody plays anyone but Magneto or other characters with cheap infinites.

If those infinites were banned, all the other characters would be playable again. Pity that will never happen because of this uncreative competitive mindset.

I enjoy competitive fighting games, but I believe that there should be some room for consideration on things like this. We all don't have to be machines and follow a strict code.
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
Oh yeah, the good old days. Magneto's ROM infinite at the corner or Cable's AHVB (Air Hyper Viper Beam). But this is Brawl; it's a shame that it takes little effort to do grab infinites in this game. Besides, it's been less than 2 months since the game was released and we are already seeing inexperienced players do something to the veterans with grab infinites. Very shameful indeed.
 

RednaXale

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
189
Sorry, I have not witnessed this "Infinite grab".
Is it truly impossible to get out of? And how is it initiated?
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
Sorry, I have not witnessed this "Infinite grab".
Is it truly impossible to get out of? And how is it initiated?
Some characters, like DeDeDe, are able to perform an infinite grab on characters. There are few characters that can spot-dodge these grab attempts though, so you have to be careful not to get into a grab chain.

Marth is also able to do an infinite grab on the aforementioned Ness and Lucas. There is a video on post #82 above showing Marth repeatedly grabbing Ness without letting him escape. Keep in mind that the infinite was tested on a Lv. 9 Ness Computer!
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Baton Rouge
Lucas can DI back and do a Jab to get out at around ~50%. Ness has yet to gain a strategy to get out aside from perfectly inputing the escape command to do a hop out of the grab, rather than a slide.
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,167
Location
somewhere sunny
Lucas can DI back and do a Jab to get out at around ~50%. Ness has yet to gain a strategy to get out aside from perfectly inputing the escape command to do a hop out of the grab, rather than a slide.
His jab will most likely just be eaten up by the other character's grab, which always takes priority.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
yeah, infinites are bad in tournaments, i lost 40 bucks because some guy switched from metaknight to d3 just to infinite my dk, infinites this easy take out 7 character that i know of, maybe more, thats 1/5 of the roster, and its not like they need to be well timed, you can seriously practice it for a day and have it down perfectly
 

TTT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
339
Location
St. Louie
Infinites essentially remove 7 perfectly viable characters from tournament play, they are easy enough to do (I taught my friend who has never played smash to today in less than 5 min), and in no way "progress" the game.

The only GOOD argument i've seen to leave it unbanned is that there are different characters you can pick. Even this is silly when you think about it.

HMMMMMMM let's have a tournament where infinites are unbanned. OK you won't be able to play with 7 of the characters unless you want to lose. Tough luck it's in the game :\

Ok let's try a tournament with banned infinites. Oh look everybody in the game is playable and has a chance of winning if you have enough skill with them.

I have no idea why you would want a tournament with the former.
 

Fatmanonice

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
18,432
Location
Somewhere... overthinking something
NNID
Fatmanonice
Infinites are necessary for tactical progression in a game with limited technical options.

Like brawl.
Right... because it takes a whole lot of skill to do the same attack over and over again on characters that can't even defend themselves once their attacked... Someone already posted this but does this look like skill to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

Even allowing only one of two characters use golden hammers in a match is not as cheap as this; at least in that scenario they have some chance of survival and can actually attempt to dodge/get away.
 

Zig-Zag!

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
1,403
Location
Your mother
TTT

Can I ask that you post that marth infinite on Ness on the first post, as well as a link to the DDD infinite grab? That would help a lot.

I fully agree that action shouldnt be taken immediately, until this proves itself to be a problem. Also, whoever brought up the point that it should be considered a stalling tactic is smart.
 

TTT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
339
Location
St. Louie
TTT

Can I ask that you post that marth infinite on Ness on the first post, as well as a link to the DDD infinite grab? That would help a lot.

I fully agree that action shouldnt be taken immediately, until this proves itself to be a problem. Also, whoever brought up the point that it should be considered a stalling tactic is smart.
Done and done. True that it could be a stall tactic, but then people would just use the loophole of oh infinite four times, let go, repeat. It wouldn't be either and loopholes wouldn't be possible if it was just "Hey, after you perform a grab if you do another IN THIS WAY there are penalties".


Can i ask who these 7 characters are?
Mario, DK, Samus, Luigi, Bowser, Ness, and Lucas. Vids and crap on first poast.
 

hoopspr226

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
279
Lucas can DI back and do a Jab to get out at around ~50%. Ness has yet to gain a strategy to get out aside from perfectly inputing the escape command to do a hop out of the grab, rather than a slide.
If this is true (I'm guessing it's not or else a big deal would have been made about this already) then this is incredible news for Lucas mains.

If Lucas can always DI backwards into a jab at 50%, that means he can DI backwards into a spotdodge as well. As far as I know, any time you can jab you can spot dodge.

Therefore, if the first statement is true, the chaingrab won't work on Lucas past 50% and is not that big a handicap at all.
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
I have provided a video of the Ness infinite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po
There is a hole in that infinite. I've seen Ness jump out of the grab attack at 44 and 53% from Marth. I've also seen Ness escape the grab and roll away from the next grab attempt at 122 %.

Note: Yes, I've been doing the infinite right for purposes of curiosity (I start with shield grabbing). The highest I've gotten consecutively was 104% before he jumped away from my grab.

Question: Do you have to DI up to jump away from grabs or does that happen randomly?
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
heres what my friend did at his tournament that i think is fair

1. standing dedede infinites are banned, you have to do the running cg

2. wall infinites are legitimate because there arent many walls in legal stages, and you have to maneuver people towards the walls

3. the ness cg was not known to us at the time, however, i would say three repeats and then you have to stop
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
heres what my friend did at his tournament that i think is fair

1. standing dedede infinites are banned, you have to do the running cg

2. wall infinites are legitimate because there arent many walls in legal stages, and you have to maneuver people towards the walls

3. the ness cg was not known to us at the time, however, i would say three repeats and then you have to stop
Jesus Christ, I hope there IS some control over the infinites in this game. But let's be realistic here: If you go to a tournament, I think everyone will just disregard all of this and just continue with the infinites (Seriously, you can't tell the guy, "hey stop that", if he repeated the infinite by mistake because that will cause the player to lose concentration during a match). Character banning won't help either because that wasn't done in Melee and why should it be done now in Brawl; a game that has no more than 2 months being released.
 

Vet

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
33
Location
Southern PA
DeDeDe's only infinites Bowser and DK and works for an extended period on Luigi, Mario, and Samus (correct me if I am wrong).

Also, the Marth thing on Ness should be called a chain Grab and DDD's a Chain Throw.

Ban chain grabs but let chain throws go?
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Let me try to simplify the arguments of all those who are NOT in favor of banning the infinites. First, let me begin by outlining what creates a competitive community:

-The better player should win most or all of the time. This was in scar's thread, and I think it's a perfect definition.
-A competitive community does not create arbitrary definitions of "honor," "fun," or "cheapness." The community plays the game, and pushes it to its limits. The game knows nothing of honor or fun. The game knows nothing of cheapness. The game only knows winning and losing.
-A competitive community finds fun in pushing the game to its limits, and in winning. When money's on the line, the question is who the "better player," not who can win while being the least cheap.

Now then, what defines a "better player?"

-The "better player" uses available resources to his advantage than the other player. This can be an overarching resource, such as mental dexterity; it can also be a specific resource, such as understanding his character's priorotity in comparison to other players.

Which "resources" are available in Brawl?

-The answer to this question comes before even turning on the Wii; your attitude. Are you playing the game to beat the other person? If not, don't expect to win.
-The next set of "resources" is the character select screen. Characters are not made equal, and there's no reason for them to be. This literally is equivalent to allowing two duelists to choose their weapon before a duel. One picks a grenade launcher. The other picks a rubber band. The man with the rubber band is at a significant, self-inflicted disadvantage. It doesn't matter how much he likes rubber bands, or how much fun he has flicking them around with friends, because it's an inferior weapon in this situation.
-"Resources" then come in-game; your character's moves are "resources." A competitive player does not have these bizzare notions of moves or techniques being cheap. A Marth using only f-smash to defeat a 'scrub' faces the likelihood of being called "cheap." Conversely, a Mario using only FLUDD against the same 'scurb' will likely be informed of how little skill he has in playing the game. This is the inherent flaw in the 'scrub' argument. To a competitive player, there is skilled and unskilled. To a casual player, there is cheap and unskilled.
-There are many other "resources," including stage picks, random chance, and glitches/bugs. Each is used to heighten a player's chance of winning.

What does this have to do with infinites?

-Infinites are part of this bucket of "resources". It's incredibly rare that an infinite, no matter how simple it is, will break the metagame. There is always some sort of counter.
-Infinites lead to winning, nothing more. Anyone who tries to label them as "cheap" or say that there's no honor in them, that's all well and good. You can create a tournament with arbitrary mental restrictions, and no one will care. Maybe it'll be well attended. But don't try taking that idea to MLG or the like.

Where are the pro-banning arguments failing?

-A ban must be EASILY monitored. EASILY. This is the key word. For example, it's EASY to monitor players who play on banned stages. You can see the stage very easily without having to constantly moderate. It's DIFFICULT to monitor things like infinites without having a judge at every table.
-A ban must be EASILY enforced. You might think it's fair to cap out these grabs at 3 or 4. How can you tell? You can not read a person's intentions by watching, only their actions. If a player truly wants to infinite, and you put some sort of arbitrary limit on it, then they will simply perform UP TO that limit, take an out-of-pattern action, and then resume the infinite.
-I see this argument coming up far too frequently: a tactic renders a few characters completely unusable. Sadly, this doesn't matter. A large roster does not increase a game's competitive value in the slightest. There will always be strong characters and weak characters. Always. SMGs don't beat rockets in halo, the bullpup does not beat the AK in CS 1.6, and Goblins doesn't beat Alluren in MTG. There is imbalance in games, and part of the game is learning to use the best tools available.
-Connected to this idea; why should we literally cripple a character in order to bring in others? When chaingrabbing is a powerful tactic, why should we take away a character's ability to do it while letting other characters retain their ability? By this, I mean to say: suppose we limit all chaingrabs on Ness to a maximum of 4 grabs. What if someone develops a chain of moves with ness that automatically guarantees at least 10% more damage to an opponent than Ness takes from the now limited infinite? Now Ness has a gross advantage merely because the other character is restricted by this arbitrary idea of "cheapness."

In summation, none of the arguments in favor of attempting to ban this technique are legitimate. It doesn't matter how easy it is. It doesn't matter that some characters become unusable afterwards. These are not the concerns of the game.

There is only one time when a tactic should be banned, and that is when the technique becomes completely and totally unbeatable and uncounterable on all accounts at all times. That means that there is only one character and one tactic with any chance of winning. An example of this would be the infinite pound tactic in melee; playing against a jiggs who would strike once and then stall infinitely could only be countered by attempting to do the same. This merits a ban.

However, rendering a few characters useless is not the same concept. There are still a wealth of techniques and characters available for play. If they're your favorite character, then that's a shame. It truly is. But until one character wins all tournaments with only one technique, then a technique is not worth banning.

The only exception I can imagine is if Ness and Lucas completely and totally lose any and all tournament viability. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't think this infinite is going to break the game--or their chances.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Infinites aren't broken if they are characters-specific (as in "Works only on one or two characters"). Infinites aren't broken if they just make a small number of characters unplayable (in this case, two).

And all that almightypancake said. All this infinite is going to do is make Lucas and Ness definite low tiers. Well boo hoo. I guess all Pichumainers were wrong all along. They should've banned Upsmashes against Pichu because, gasp, Pichu dies at, like, 60% from some of them.
 

RolandBeoulve

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
122
Location
Delaware
As much as I hate cheap tactic's, and as arbitrarily honor-bound as I am in a time where it means close to nothing I agree with Yuna and AlmightyPancake wholeheartedly on this issue. If it doesn't break the entire cast and completely halt metagame development it's not going to be banned.

It sucks but if your going into a tourney and money is on the line do what you can do within the ruleset to win. However if a friend is doing this in casual see how many wii-motes you can hide in his visible orifices...
 

EdreesesPieces

Smash Bros Before Hos
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
7,680
Location
confirmed, sending supplies.
NNID
EdreesesPieces
A dog can't infinite in MvC. A dog could infinite in Brawl. That's the difference. "If a dog can do the infinite it should be banned' should be on the ruleset of all tournaments. If I dont find a way to escape this consistently i'm quitting brawl for being such a stupid game.
 

TTT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
339
Location
St. Louie
Infinites aren't broken if they are characters-specific (as in "Works only on one or two characters"). Infinites aren't broken if they just make a small number of characters unplayable (in this case, two).

And all that almightypancake said. All this infinite is going to do is make Lucas and Ness definite low tiers. Well boo hoo. I guess all Pichumainers were wrong all along. They should've banned Upsmashes against Pichu because, gasp, Pichu dies at, like, 60% from some of them.
Affects 7 chars. That's not how tiers work :(. Bad comparison, here's why.

What if someone like Azen were to enter in a big melee tournament with Pichu. Well I'm sure he would beat 90% of the people there no problem. You know why? Cause he's a better player, and sure Pichu might have disadvantages but they can be overcome.

Now let's say Azen picks Ness in a brawl tournament. He'll get beat by the first player who can press Z and has this easily attainable knowledge.

That's the difference. The only good point I've seen is that it hasn't ruined their chances YET. Now if those 7 chars are not even present in a tournament.... that's just wrong. Playing to win or not if you truly are the better player you would beat a Ness using Marth without having to infinite. Why would you do that when you can just infinite? Oh I dunno, because the consequences of letting that happen would be much worse.
 

FeArTeHsMaSh

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
41
Location
California
A dog can't infinite in MvC. A dog could infinite in Brawl. That's the difference. "If a dog can do the infinite it should be banned' should be on the ruleset of all tournaments. If I dont find a way to escape this consistently i'm quitting brawl for being such a stupid game.
That particular dog can only infinite on two characters. Sucks, but oh well. In a game with multiple characters, some will be at top, and some will be at bottom. Ness and Lucas are at the bottom, just for nonconventional reasons.

And, I'm pretty sure that same dog could infinite with Shiek on most characters in Melee. Why didn't you quit then?
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
if we aren't banning for cheap i would like several levels unbanned, its in the game, therefore should be perfectly legal

EDIT: especially stages that give character specific advantages/disadvantages because they only affect certain characters

Double EDIT: also, items should now be unbanned, including smashballs because they are only character specific
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
A dog can't infinite in MvC. A dog could infinite in Brawl. That's the difference. "If a dog can do the infinite it should be banned' should be on the ruleset of all tournaments. If I dont find a way to escape this consistently i'm quitting brawl for being such a stupid game.
The simplicity of the technique does not matter. It's completely irrelevant.
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
if we aren't banning for cheap i would like several levels unbanned, its in the game, therefore should be perfectly legal
Cheap is not the same as random. Levels are only banned when

A: the randomness overly affects the game.
B: the level creates a situation in which only one character and one strategy are viable.
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Now if those 7 chars are not even present in a tournament.... that's just wrong.
Why? I don't see people using FLUDD or Sheik's chain in tournaments.

I'm sorry, but losing characters does not impede a competitive scene. This is proven by high-level tournament play. If a bunch of melee pros had a tourney, and Azen picked pichu, he would lose to an equally-skilled player playing falco or fox.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
Why? I don't see people using FLUDD or Sheik's chain in tournaments.

I'm sorry, but losing characters does not impede a competitive scene. This is proven by high-level tournament play. If a bunch of melee pros had a tourney, and Azen picked pichu, he would lose to an equally-skilled player playing falco or fox.
if you're going to double post i will too

key word in your sentence is equally skilled, these infinites do not require equal skill
 

TTT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
339
Location
St. Louie
The simplicity of the technique does not matter. It's completely irrelevant.
Of course it matters. It is completely relevant because it allows a player of little or no skill to completely dominate a wayy better player.

"There are plenty of other characters to pick a better player would just pick a different one". Now you're just trying to limit the game by NOT limiting the gayness.

Think about it...by arguing that you shouldn't limit the game and infinties shouldn't be banned. You're contradicting yourselves by ACTUALLY limiting the game negative 7 characters.....whoa. Which ones more limiting now? 7 characters...or one "technique".
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Even Azen couldn't overcome Pichu's weaknesses. And Azen can still beat "n00bs" who know this infinite... which isn't really an infinite and only works for, what, 3 characters? Check up on your facts before arguing your tiny brains out.
 

EdreesesPieces

Smash Bros Before Hos
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
7,680
Location
confirmed, sending supplies.
NNID
EdreesesPieces
I"m not for banning it, (well I am, but only for selfish reasons, not for any legit reason) I was just pointing out the stupidity in the existence of the game design. I don't think this is bannable.

A dog can't sheik chain grab btw. You have to time it and follow the DI. In this case, you only need to mash one button (especially if you switch your controller configuration which you can't do tin Melee)
 

TTT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
339
Location
St. Louie
Even Azen couldn't overcome Pichu's weaknesses. And Azen can still beat "n00bs" who know this infinite... which isn't really an infinite and only works for, what, 3 characters? Check up on your facts before arguing your tiny brains out.
Why don't I kindly direct you to the first page. Where there are multiple resources that show there are 7 characters affected. First you say 2 now 3. Please read the rest of the thread(s) before posting here. No use insulting me first :psycho:
 

Koga

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
352
Now we know for sure that about 1/5th of the brawl roster can be shafted in some way, shape, or form by a person grabbing them once. This could render these characters almost useless in a tournament.
Should the standing infinite (or Marth's form of it) be banned because of this? Or should Grab infinites be allowed because they are a legitimate form of punishment in tournament play? The person messed up by picking that character and getting grabbed.

EDIT: VIDEOS AND THREADS OF INFINITES

King DeDeDe standing infinite
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152392
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A&feature=related

Ness and Lucas Raep (Marth and others?)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166765
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po



My wonderful opinion: A "technique" that is relatively simple to perform that renders a whole set of great competitive characters useless should be banned.

Not just because it lowers the chances of the characters doing well in a tournament because many other competitive games had useless tourny characters. This should be banned because it allows a person with little skill to utterly destroy a more skilled player just because they were grabbed a couple of times.
In a true test of skill a player should be able to beat the other without relying on an infinite. The better player should not be punished so much for being grabbed ONCE each stock.


What does the smash community think?

To the bolded part:

a more skilled player wouldn't select a character that can be infinate grabed

Character seletction is part of what makes up "skill"

no johns
 
Top Bottom