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D

Deleted member 189823

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It's just like gaw or Snake's. You D-Throw and you have to read what your opponent is about to do next. Your opponent also has the option of teching the throw.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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Rizen said:
Q How does DDD's tech chase vs characters he can't CG work?
Click to expand...
You dthrow the opponent, just like you normally would. However, the difference comes with your follow-up. You try to read where the opponent is gonna tech and then place a grabbox or hitbox there while he's getting up but before he can move (near the end of the tech). It may seem like a 1/4 chance (tech left, right, in place, or no tech) of guessing correctly, but based on the player and the situation, one can actually make some inferences that make it a little easier to predict properly.

For instance, some players really can't tech at all, especially if they're playing spacees, so against them, I'll tend to dthrow > ftilt or even dthrow > DA, given the situation (I actually like that latter follow-up on people who tend to tech in place; it also catches spot-dodges). Where the opponent is placed by the dthrow matters too. A lot of mid-level players will tech towards the center of the stage when they're placed near the edge of it (fear factor). After you 'mindgame' the opponent by catching those a couple times, they'll probably start to do the opposite. You've now 'conditioned' your opponent. Conditioning is a very strong, yet subtle, technique in Brawl (and Smash in general), one that many do not pay much attention to, even though it plays a large factor in several high-level matches. One of its greatest applications is in the art of tech-chasing. After you've 'conditioned' your opponent not to tech towards the center of the stage, you can start applying your tech-chase actions towards other options closer to the ledge. This is where you will sometimes see DDD's making seemingly insane reads for the kill (like a DA tech-chase).

There are also 'traps' and the sort that one can lay to aid with tech-chasing. For instance, DDD can actually cover multiple tech options (sometimes ALL of them) with a dsmash. At the right times, Waddle Doos can cover certain tech options. The topic of tech-chasing is great and vast and I couldn't even begin to scratch the surface with this post, but it's something that DDD's really need to understand and get accustomed to for those MUs that we can't just CG to victory. A lot of people think that no CG = no victory for our king, but the reality is that is simply not true. Many times you will hear me say, "One grab can potentially equal Fox/Falco offstage." Well, we can't CG Fox/Falco so that 'offstage' part isn't exactly guaranteed, but between our side throws and our dthrow tech chase (TC), we can definitely make it happen.

Btw, TCs don't only result from dthrow. They can potentially happen in any situation where the opponent is knocked down and is able to tech, even from something as simple as slipping off of a platform (e.g. hitting the opponent's shield towards the edge of a platform when his back is facing that edge). We just happen to have an incredible tool that allows us to force our own tech chases, and we all definitely need to use it more.

Tl;dr - Learn2TechChase
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
I thought I was going to have a hard time getting the kill if it wasn't through an U-Tilt (I usually try to go for it by running straight at my opponent and just doing it up close, but that's unreliable), so now it seems I getting and will be getting most of my kills through Tech Chasing to D-Smash or Dash Attack.
Tech-Chasing really is important against the characters you can't chaingrab to pack on some damage.
 
Rizen

Rizen

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bubbaking said:
You dthrow the opponent, just like you normally would. However, the difference comes with your follow-up. You try to read where the opponent is gonna tech and then place a grabbox or hitbox there while he's getting up but before he can move (near the end of the tech). It may seem like a 1/4 chance (tech left, right, in place, or no tech) of guessing correctly, but based on the player and the situation, one can actually make some inferences that make it a little easier to predict properly.

For instance, some players really can't tech at all, especially if they're playing spacees, so against them, I'll tend to dthrow > ftilt or even dthrow > DA, given the situation (I actually like that latter follow-up on people who tend to tech in place; it also catches spot-dodges).
Click to expand...
| Big D | said:
They also have the option of DI-ing up and airdodging, in which case you can regrab.
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks that's where I was confused. So the literal 'tech' chase can be avoided from Dthrow but if they don't DI and try to escape it puts them in a tech chase situation. So it's a guaranteed CG on some characters and leads to a potential tech chase on the others but not a guaranteed tech chase on them? Unlike Ganon's sideB and Snake's Dthrow.
I knew G&W could avoid teching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugt30yeY3Ws most of my characters get CGed and I always avoided the tech chase with ones who didn't and never knew about it, lol.

Thanks again, lots of helpful info. :)
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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Swei said:
I thought I was going to have a hard time getting the kill if it wasn't through an U-Tilt (I usually try to go for it by running straight at my opponent and just doing it up close, but that's unreliable), so now it seems I getting and will be getting most of my kills through Tech Chasing to D-Smash or Dash Attack.
Tech-Chasing really is important against the characters you can't chaingrab to pack on some damage.
Click to expand...
Ahhh, it's not that simple, I'm afraid. :ohwell: If you want utilt kills, one nifty way of landing them is through spot dodge/roll > utilt (especially the spot dodge variant). You should also be aiming to get a large portion of your kills through gimps, as well as plain bairs and dtilts.

Edit: Ftr though, you can potentially land kills with fair, dair, uair, and obviously all your smashes, so keep those in mind. Oh, and of course, you have the infamous Gordo. :estatic:

Rizen said:
Okay, thanks that's where I was confused. So the literal 'tech' chase can be avoided from Dthrow but if they don't DI and try to escape it puts them in a tech chase situation. So it's a guaranteed CG on some characters and leads to a potential tech chase on the others but not a guaranteed tech chase on them? Unlike Ganon's sideB and Snake's Dthrow.
I knew G&W could avoid teching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugt30yeY3Ws most of my characters get CGed and I always avoided the tech chase with ones who didn't and never knew about it, lol.

Thanks again, lots of helpful info. :)
Click to expand...
Well, it's never a "guaranteed CG" on any of the lightest 12 simply because they have the option to act, but yeah, it's a practically guaranteed re-grab if they try to escape through DI > AD and it's a pretty much a guaranteed tech-chase if they try to escape through landing. I think the few exceptions to this are, like, Jiggs and G&W, but they're so light that you can just bthrow them for a good chunk of damage anyway.

No problem! ;)
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
How does U-Air and D-Air kill?
Also, any setups for F-Smash? I thought of trying to edgeguard with it, and when it misses, D-Tilt.
I think I'll mixup U-Tilt and U-Smash to punish airdodges and landings. I like how much space Up-Smash covers around DDD.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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The last hits of both uair and dair are quite strong, although it's very possible to SDI out of them before that final hit connects. Setups for fsmash? I'm afraid not! That move is just too slow. I only land that move off of reads, such as predicting when the opponent is gonna get off the ledge or holding the smash to induce a spot-dodge. Usmash is pretty nice for catching AD's and spot-dodges on plats, but it's laggy so use it at your own risk.
 
Bobwithlobsters

Bobwithlobsters

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Yeah I feel everything usmash does down smash or up tilt does better. The only thing usmash does best is you can do a running usmash. I know utilt kills earlier than usmash which is silly. And as an air dodge punish I feel dsmash is more useful, I feel like dsmash does more damage than usmash but I can't remember for sure.

:phone:
 
ZTD | TECHnology

ZTD | TECHnology

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So in matchups where we can't CG, I've been using this gimmick where if the opponent fails to tech after a D-Throw, I buffer a dash and then a D-Tilt afterwards and it hits. I've found it to be really useful in some matchups for getting the kill at higher percents and it surprises people. Like at high percents where using B-Throw wouldn't matter because they're already killable by normal means (Bair, Fair, U-Tilt), I have been using this as a mixup. Has anyone else been using this? It works on like everyone we can't CG.
 
allshort17

allshort17

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You know what's also cool? If you d-throw one of the unchainable 12 on a downward incline, they don't go into the tech chase state. You can get an easier d-tilt or sometimes a dash attack. It's works good on Yoshi's. Definitely not guaranteed though.
 
Bobwithlobsters

Bobwithlobsters

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Technical_Chase said:
So in matchups where we can't CG, I've been using this gimmick where if the opponent fails to tech after a D-Throw, I buffer a dash and then a D-Tilt afterwards and it hits. I've found it to be really useful in some matchups for getting the kill at higher percents and it surprises people. Like at high percents where using B-Throw wouldn't matter because they're already killable by normal means (Bair, Fair, U-Tilt), I have been using this as a mixup. Has anyone else been using this? It works on like everyone we can't CG.
Click to expand...
I've also discovered this mix-up. I have a falco player up here that loves to just stay down and wait to see what I do before deciding which way to roll to avoid the tech chase. If I notice that I will dash up and just down tilt him off the ground. Makes them very afraid to stay down on the ground ever, making tech chasing much easier. They dont dare stop to think about which way to roll.

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Could you name me a few fast-paced DDD players? You know, like Coney & Skelerex.
 
Bobwithlobsters

Bobwithlobsters

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Actually we should just make a spectrum of the top ddd mains ranging from most defensive/campy to most offensive/agro. I think that would be a good chart so that we all know who to search on youtube for what kind of play style we want.

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
That's an excellent idea.
Personally I haven't seen much DDD players other than Coney, Skelerex and Vex.
 
Bobwithlobsters

Bobwithlobsters

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4god and technical chase are both great ones to watch. atomsk and siebrik also both play a lot of ddd as I remember but use a lot of other characters as well.

I hope I spelled sieberk right...

:phone:
 
allshort17

allshort17

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Swei said:
That's an excellent idea.
Personally I haven't seen much DDD players other than Coney, Skelerex and Vex.
Click to expand...
Other Dededes:
4God
Isotaku
CO18
DewdaDash
Atomsk
Seibrik
9B

There are also a bunch of top players with matches of their pocket Dedede. Though, you named all the fast one. I'm pretty fast, but I'm not that good nor do I have videos. ha.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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Bobwithlobsters said:
Actually we should just make a spectrum of the top ddd mains ranging from most defensive/campy to most offensive/agro. I think that would be a good chart so that we all know who to search on youtube for what kind of play style we want.
Click to expand...
This sounds like a cool idea, but I'd just like to note that, for the creation of the best possible DDD, we should probably learn to pick up and incorporate several styles into our arsenal. It's always best to have several successful strategies under our belts, rather than just one strat that we like. Along that note, I just tend to watch good DDDs, no matter the style, because I can almost always learn something that I never considered before.

Also, watching our fellow mid-level DDDs doesn't hurt either. Sometimes we can learn stuff from each other and it helps to spread the knowledge around easier.

Exdeath said:
What is the frame data on :dedede:'s jump?
Click to expand...
Actually, what is the frame data on our everything? We're one of the only characters that doesn't have a hitbox and/or frame data thread... :(
 
Bobwithlobsters

Bobwithlobsters

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I definitely agree that you can't really stick to only one style of play with ddd. You need to be able to change it up as the situation requires.

I personally feel that I get too aggressive and dont space my moves as well as I should which is why I enjoy watching the slower more defensive ddd mains. But you definitely need to be able to change it up so as to keep yourself that much more unpredictable.

:phone:
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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Swei said:
I used this thread for frame-data:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=303332
Click to expand...
The problem with that thread, however, is that it only shows what frame a move comes out on. :ohwell: It's really good at listing great uses for each move, though, and it is responsible for my knowledge of DDD's nair > utilt combo. :awesome:

And hey, I never knew Buuman had a pretty fast DDD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o4v7-r10C8
Click to expand...
Well, you've gotta be fast at recognizing setups to properly pull off Buuman traps so I would imagine that he's probably a fast thinker which would translate to his playing speed. He doesn't really play much anymore though, I think. :(

My question is, though...at what frame does the U-Tilt really come out on? It says 7 frames there, but in another frame-data thread (granted, it's outdated) it says it's a 12-frame move.
Click to expand...
I really think it comes out on frame 7. Both TC's and Aerodrome's threads say frame 7 and it looks like it comes out quite a good bit sooner than 12 frames. Of course, it hits on frame 12 as well 'cause the hitbox lasts until frame 15.

D34N said:
How could you guys forget Oreo's beautiful frame data thread? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314753
Click to expand...
Wooow! How did I miss this? Thanks a lot man! ;)
 
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