Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[TempestSurge]

On the topic of Sakurai and pressure from the community. He has a few interviews that give him the impression that he's completely unfazed and will actually address things he's aware of from fans and even outright states his disapproval. His stance on fans reaction to the clone characters in 4. He even made up a whole analogy just to make clear how ridiculous he felt the hate was. Comparing to the clone characters to receiving a free dessert after enjoying a full course meal but instead asking for that dessert to change to a meat dish. Even alludes that the ones complaining can't help it as they're children. Then his closing statement on the matter was about leaving it up to him to select characters with man hours and costs in mind. That interview certainly had me like, whoa, that certainly hit the nail on the head.

I also don't think he'd say offhanded things in his interviews like, 'unlike some main characters from not widely known franchises' unless he's actually aware that he gets plenty of requests like that from the community to warrant him to say something like that to justify Piranha's Plant inclusion in the first place.

 

[SPEN18]

I actually like Greninja for the most part. He's a bit awkward to use for me personally but I don't mind the character. I still disagree with the way he was chosen, though, and he isn't absolutely essential to the Pokémon roster.

In the cases of Incineroar and PP, though, I both dislike the character and the way they got into the game.

Corrin is kinda meh. And again, I don't like the way they chose him.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

The thing with Corrin was that his inclusion came after the fact that Sakurai said DLC would be fan-service while the ballot was running and he was chosen over other highly requested characters while being the only newcomer owned by Nintendo even after we got a Fire Emblem DLC character with Roy. Looking at the circumstances it's obvious why Corrin is such a divisive character especially at the time he was revealed. There was a countdown right before his reveal which would've led to more disappointment. Also from what I've heard Fates is a divisive game which makes the situation age weirdly. Personally I don't like his inclusion all that much but that's just me.

And at the end of the day he does fight with a sword in Golden Sun (yes I know it could be an axe or other things but he mostly used swords) and the only reason Isaac fans are trying to take away his sword is because they think it's hurting his chances to get in. But if we're honest here Isaac should use his sword because that's part of how he fights in his games.

It's true that he does use his sword for a few attacks but in the game he rarely fights like that. Just a few variations of the same leap attack and dash strike shared among a small number of psynergy and djinn spells. The majority of his skillset is pure elemental psynergy most commonly earth/plants which is plentiful enough to base his whole moveset around if they wanted

I was wondering, has anyone used the new Isaac render to create a new support button? (like the one in my signature)

N3ON did make this awesome button that I proudly use on my sig now

 

[shocktarts17]

The thing with Corrin was that his inclusion came after the fact that Sakurai said DLC would be fan-service while the ballot was running and he was chosen over other highly requested characters while being the only newcomer owned by Nintendo even after we got a Fire Emblem DLC character with Roy. Looking at the circumstances it's obvious why Corrin is such a divisive character especially at the time he was revealed. There was a countdown right before his reveal which would've led to more disappointment. Also from what I've heard Fates is a divisive game which makes the situation age weirdly. Personally I don't like his inclusion all that much but that's just me.

I think you've pretty aptly explained Corrin's difficulties here but I do want to address the Fates thing, Fates is currently the best selling Fire Emblem game of all time so while it does have its problems I think the fans who truly dislike it are more of a vocal minority.

It's true that he does use his sword for a few attacks but in the game he rarely fights like that. Just a few variations of the same leap attack and dash strike shared among a small number of psynergy and djinn spells

I mean now you're getting into a conversation about bringing any turn-based RPG character to Smash since the standard attack is a pretty critical to most RPGs. At the end of the day in Golden Sun when Isaac fights he has his sword out,
and unless I'm just bad at the game I know that there is no way you had enough PP for most of your attacks to be psynergy without running out, so while the attack was just a standard attack it was something he did frequently in combat.

Obviously I'm not suggesting he should only fight with his sword, or even mostly fight with his sword, but to suggest he wouldn't use a sword at all would be a stretch.

 

[ZelDan]

Whenever I played the Golden Sun games I definitely remember using the standard attacks very often. Then again I like to be conservative with my magic usage in RPGs whenever I can.

When it comes to standard attacks, aerials, tilts, and smash attacks, I imagine there would be a mix of sword attacks and psynergy. Ideally his special attacks would be completely psynergy based, and his final Smash would totally be a summon (likely Judgemet), or maybe one of those critical hits you would get for weapons like megiddo. His grabs I could see involving his hand psynergy, similar to his assist trophy in Ultimate.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Honestly I'm a little surprised how much push back I'm getting over this "unique" thing, is it just reflex after the constant "anime swordsman" talk from the naysayers? I stated I thought he would still be unique and I'm not going to just keep saying that over and over again, but if you can truly say that Isaac is going to be more unique than someone like Inkling or K. Rool then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


Just because you don't like them doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. I've already stated that PP got in as a diversity pick, and Corrin was a combo platter of promotional material from a popular game that had potential for a unique moveset. Sakurai even said he wouldn't have added Corrin if he didn't think they had such potential for a unique moveset. And Pokemon has enough fans that even if less than half of them like any given Pokemon, it still probably has more fans than Isaac/Geno/Banjo/Waluigi/etc.


Yeah but that is considerably more obscure than just looking at the trophy or making a mii. And even if he never uses it it's still strapped to his back so it's not like its some bizarre stretch that people would think he fights with a sword.

And at the end of the day he does fight with a sword in Golden Sun (yes I know it could be an axe or other things but he mostly used swords) and the only reason Isaac fans are trying to take away his sword is because they think it's hurting his chances to get in. But if we're honest here Isaac should use his sword because that's part of how he fights in his games.

What I was going for is the fact that if he cared about fan response, he wouldn’t go with unproven characters (Greninja, Corrin), hated characters (Incineroar) or inanimate objects.

All those characters also had terrible reveal issues (Greninja being confused for Mewtwo, Corrin coming after the ballot and at the end of DLC, before the worldwide release of Fates and ending up being hated, Incineroar and Piranha Plant being announced last, etc.)

 

[shocktarts17]

What I was going for is the fact that if he cared about fan response, he wouldn’t go with unproven characters (Greninja, Corrin), hated characters (Incineroar) or inanimate objects.

I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on Inceniroar and Piranha Plant because I don't think anything I am going to say will convince you there.

And while I agree with you to an extent about unproven characters I think there is a balance there and it's not as arbitrary as you state. Take Rex for instance, he was still very new yet people love him and were really upset when he got deconfirmed because he was too new. While in theory it makes sense to wait and see how a character plays out in practice it means never selecting the things people are into now and potentially missing out on hype reveals while they're on everyone's mind. Besides if you're arguing Corrin got in too soon since they weren't released internationally yet then Lucas shouldn't be in the game either since his game isn't even out internationally.

All those characters also had terrible reveal issues (Greninja being confused for Mewtwo, Corrin coming after the ballot and at the end of DLC, before the worldwide release of Fates and ending up being hated, Incineroar and Piranha Plant being announced last, etc.)

On this I will agree. I've been saying for a while Corrin caught a raw deal and would have been well liked under other circumstances.

 

[SPEN18]

I think you've pretty aptly explained Corrin's difficulties here but I do want to address the Fates thing, Fates is currently the best selling Fire Emblem game of all time so while it does have its problems I think the fans who truly dislike it are more of a vocal minority.

I mean, there were a ton of FE players like myself who bought Fates only to find that it wasn't their thing in a lot of ways. Plus a lot of the sales came off the back of Awakening being a revival of sorts for FE as a series. But yeah, the game did sell well and it was pretty well received by critics, so it's hard to say that it shouldn't get anything. Since there were two Awakening reps in base Smash 4, maybe they should've waited until Ultimate to bring Roy back and/or consider another FE newcomer. Personally I'm comfortable with Robin/Lucina repping the 3DS FEs, but I'm also alright with Fates having a character.

I mean now you're getting into a conversation about bringing any turn-based RPG character to Smash since the standard attack is a pretty critical to most RPGs. At the end of the day in Golden Sun when Isaac fights he has his sword out,
and unless I'm just bad at the game I know that there is no way you had enough PP for most of your attacks to be psynergy without running out, so while the attack was just a standard attack it was something he did frequently in combat.

Obviously I'm not suggesting he should only fight with his sword, or even mostly fight with his sword, but to suggest he wouldn't use a sword at all would be a stretch.

Personally I imagine Isaac using his sword for a handful of moves, possibly his jab, some tilts, and/or a few aerials. I agree that it would be a bit weird if he didn't use it at all, but I think a lot of Isaac fans naturally want to deemphasize the sword because otherwise he'll get a lot more hate. I think what most Isaac fans would say is less like "Isaac wouldn't and shouldn't use his sword at all" but more like "Isaac has enough moves that it is possible to make him without using the sword."

 

[shocktarts17]

Personally I imagine Isaac using his sword for a handful of moves, possibly his jab, some tilts, and/or a few aerials. I agree that it would be a bit weird if he didn't use it at all, but I think a lot of Isaac fans naturally want to deemphasize the sword because otherwise he'll get a lot more hate. I think what most Isaac fans would say is less like "Isaac wouldn't and shouldn't use his sword at all" but more like "Isaac has enough moves that it is possible to make him without using the sword."

I think that's fair but I also think it's important we don't misrepresent him either. If I described Corrin as a half dragon who can partially transform into a dragon and can use staves, magic, and breath attacks that would be true but then people would be upset when they show up with a sword in half of their attacks.

 

[KoopaSaki]

I mean, there were a ton of FE players like myself who bought Fates only to find that it wasn't their thing in a lot of ways. Plus a lot of the sales came off the back of Awakening being a revival of sorts for FE as a series. But yeah, the game did sell well and it was pretty well received by critics, so it's hard to say that it shouldn't get anything. Since there were two Awakening reps in base Smash 4, maybe they should've waited until Ultimate to bring Roy back and/or consider another FE newcomer. Personally I'm comfortable with Robin/Lucina repping the 3DS FEs, but I'm also alright with Fates having a character.



Personally I imagine Isaac using his sword for a handful of moves, possibly his jab, some tilts, and/or a few aerials. I agree that it would be a bit weird if he didn't use it at all, but I think a lot of Isaac fans naturally want to deemphasize the sword because otherwise he'll get a lot more hate. I think what most Isaac fans would say is less like "Isaac wouldn't and shouldn't use his sword at all" but more like "Isaac has enough moves that it is possible to make him without using the sword."

I think the best moveset isaac could have would take inspiration from his version in the fan made game super smash flash 2 where he only uses the sword for a couple smash attacks and one aerial move being the forward air. His other physical moves come from his psyenergy hands making fists and his vines making up his d tilt and f tilt. It would make best sense to integrate him that way, as I picture that’s the best moveset for him if they choose to ignore the djinn mechanics.

 

[Organization XIII]

"Isaac has enough moves that it is possible to make him without using the sword."

This has got me thinking what if Isaac is full magic swordsmen. Not like Robin where he uses magic or his sword separately but where every attack he has he uses Psyenergy and his weapon. Like how when he uses Ragnarok he still swings his sword but he does that for every move in Smash. That's something that not only would be interesting and unlike anyone on the roster but would certainly shut up those people who think there's nothing unique you can still do with a sword.

 

[SPEN18]

Take Rex for instance, he was still very new yet people love him and were really upset when he got deconfirmed because he was too new.

Well, if we're bringing Rex in here from the FE thread, then I'll reiterate what I said there: they could've rectified the whole "Rex is too new" situation by including him in DLC. If they planned too early for that to happen and are unwilling to change plans or make more DLC to rectify it, then I'm not blaming timing. And it's not like Rex can never get into future Smash games; if his legacy holds up as well as people would think then he'd still be eligible for Smash 6. And if they skip over him because they want to include the most recent Xenoblade protagonist (especially when it's not impossible to do both), then we'll have something else to criticize.

I think the best moveset isaac could have would take inspiration from his version in the fan made game super smash flash 2

I find the Super Smash Flash 2 moveset to be satisfactory. If that was the moveset he ended up with in the real game, then I'd take it, but it's not completely idealized in terms of the way I imagine him. Overall they did a good job, though.

 

[shocktarts17]

Well, if we're bringing Rex in here from the FE thread, then I'll reiterate what I said there: they could've rectified the whole "Rex is too new" situation by including him in DLC. If they planned too early for that to happen and are unwilling to change plans or make more DLC to rectify it, then I'm not blaming timing. And it's not like Rex can never get into future Smash games; if his legacy holds up as well as people would think then he'd still be eligible for Smash 6. And if they skip over him because they want to include the most recent Xenoblade protagonist (especially when it's not impossible to do both), then we'll have something else to criticize.

Oh yeah we did just have this conversation lol my bad. Do you think the Isaac thread wants us to replay it out for them?

 

[Kalaam]

I'll be honest.
I want Isaac to use his sword. Just for jabs, aerials etc. Those are standard attacks, it's normal that they are weapon attacks.
Isaac isn't Ness or Lucas. He isn't a pure mage. He is a mix of a warrior and a mage. Trying to go against the fact he is a swordman is counter productive in my eyes.
Isaac has a sword (and a pretty cool one when you look at the model in game, it's simple but nice) and he knows how to use it.
He is no master swordman like Marth or Ike. I imagine him being closer to Cloud in concept but with a bit more magical attacks. (Both are RPG character after all, in both cases you can play the game without using their weapons at all, it's all player choice).
Some smashes could be sword strikes, some could be psynergies.
His down air could easily be Meteor, his side smash a big swing while jumping forward.
Let's not give in to ignorant criticism.
Isaac has a sword.
Yes.
He uses it.
Yes.
That's one of his tool. Haters gonna hate. Let them. We don't have to hide the fact that he his a swordman.

(Also I really don't like SSF2 moveset for Isaac, too much emphasis on hand psynergy, gaia is way too cumbersome to use)

 

[SPEN18]

I'll be honest.
I want Isaac to use his sword. Just for jabs, aerials etc. Those are standard attacks, it's normal that they are weapon attacks.
Isaac isn't Ness or Lucas. He isn't a pure mage. He is a mix of a warrior and a mage. Trying to go against the fact he is a swordman is counter productive in my eyes.
Isaac has a sword (and a pretty cool one when you look at the model in game, it's simple but nice) and he knows how to use it.
He is no master swordman like Marth or Ike. I imagine him being closer to Cloud in concept but with a bit more magical attacks. (Both are RPG character after all, in both cases you can play the game without using their weapons at all, it's all player choice).
Some smashes could be sword strikes, some could be psynergies.
His down air could easily be Meteor, his side smash a big swing while jumping forward.
Let's not give in to ignorant criticism.
Isaac has a sword.
Yes.
He uses it.
Yes.
That's one of his tool. Haters gonna hate. Let them. We don't have to hide the fact that he his a swordman.

I agree that Isaac should use his sword at least a little bit. I also agree that any character that gets in should be represented as accurately as possible.

Oh yeah we did just have this conversation lol my bad. Do you think the Isaac thread wants us to replay it out for them?

Probably not lol.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that Lucas isn't exactly the same situation as Corrin. Lucas is a clone from a series that only had one rep.

 

[Kalaam]

Also, in game isaac still hold his sword with both hand when casts psynergy.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Also, in game isaac still hold his sword with both hand when casts psynergy.

Kinda ironic that it says old Isaac when it is young Isaac. Still, I really love how powerful Isaac's swinging down spite looked (the 2nd rows).

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Yeah I know he uses his sword but my point is that psynergy is so diverse and plentiful that it doesn't need to be used as often as the other sword fighters in the game. In the Isaac moveset I'm currently making I only assigned his sword to his jab, throws and dash attack while the rest are pure psynergy. Of course a few attacks could use a jump strike or a dash strike but the point is they can really expand on his psynergy to make him stand out way more especially with how different Isaac's psynergy functions compared to say Robin's magic

Kinda ironic that it says old Isaac when it is young Isaac. Still, I really love how powerful Isaac's swinging down spite looked (the 2nd rows).

Well it's because the prologue uses a different sprite where he wears a coat

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Well it's because the prologue uses a different sprite where he wears a coat

Oh right. I am so used to seeing Teen Isaac and adult Isaac that I completely forgot kid Isaac is a thing.

In the Isaac moveset I'm currently making I only assigned his sword to his jab, throws and dash attack while the rest are pure psynergy.

I would love to see that moveset you are making.

 

[SPEN18]

, throws a

I actually imagine him using the hand for at least some of the throws (like Pound for down throw, maybe Force for forward throw).

Sword is fine for those, too; just haven't seen it suggested there

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Imagine if Isaac eventually got in, and never uses his sword. Like how never uses his gun.

 

[Gioka]

Imagine if Isaac eventually got in, and never uses his sword. Like how never uses his gun.

Or Ganondorf's sword up until now lol, I'd prefer not, even if I'd love the sword to be the minimum for various reasons already stated, it is still a vital part of Isaac imo

 

[SonicLink125]

A bit late to the conversation, but just wanted to say my piece. I think the whole “too many Swordmen” is just stupid. You could almost say the same how there are too many brawlers (and there are a lot), but no one seems to talk about that. It’s really all about how you present and use your style of the sword. There are many ways to do so. I do, however, understand why people say that they don’t want more sword characters though, but it shouldn’t be the reason to exclude any character that can use a sword.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I would love to see that moveset you are making.

Yeah so far I've illustrated parts of it but I've thought up the whole thing in my mind. I made a moveset in a guest article on Sourcegaming back in 2016 but I feel like there's quiet a number of things I want to change up. Will let you guys know when it's ready in a presentable state

I actually imagine him using the hand for at least some of the throws (like Pound for down throw, maybe Force for forward throw).

Sword is fine for those, too; just haven't seen it suggested there

Yeah there are psynergy moves utilising the sword that works well with the opponent being grabbed. You'll understand once my moveset is ready

 

[Rayleigh]

So long as Isaac isn't Blond Marth, we should be fine.

 

[Kalaam]

I think what makes people sick of sword users is that 4 or 5 of them have basically the exact same moveset. So of course it feels redundant and boring.
While most "brawler" types of characters all fight differently. (Even incineroar, like him or not, has a very unique type of moveset, closer to a WWE fighter than a classic brawler like, says, Falcon or boxer like Little Mac). Even though there is much more brawlers than swordfighters.
If we get more swordfighter the only thing needed is for them to have unique ways to use their weapons. Or at least different movesets and properties. Like Ike is very different from Marth and his army of clones.
Or how Cloud is also different from Ike, despite how using big ass swords.
Etc etc.

 

[KMDP]

N3ON did make this awesome button that I proudly use on my sig now

Speaking of the render on that button, where is it? I missed it being posted.

 

[Kalaam]

Was made by NibrocRock on twitter. Here is the link.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Speaking of the render on that button, where is it? I missed it being posted.

https://www.deviantart.com/nibroc-rock/art/Isaac-Ultimate-Render-779878814 Here!

 

[KMDP]

Was made by NibrocRock on twitter. Here is the link.

https://www.deviantart.com/nibroc-rock/art/Isaac-Ultimate-Render-779878814 Here!

Thanks a lot!

 

[FlawedAI]

I'll jump in to say my piece here: I think Isaac should use his sword for weaker attacks, like jabs, tilts, and aerials. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that he would still use Psynergy, and they would probably be the moves we see the most, since they'd be powerful and useful. It's impossible to properly represent Isaac without using a sword, that's what Isaac is. What is important, though, is that the sword is deemphasized, so that it's not the focal point of his moveset, similar to Robin (though with more magic).

 

[SonicLink125]

Don’t know if anyone here has noticed, but #AssistAlliance (and #UpgradeAssists) has started to kick off a bit recently. That is cool! Hope to see it grow immensely!

 

[Frosty Pops]

Honestly I'm a little surprised how much push back I'm getting over this "unique" thing, is it just reflex after the constant "anime swordsman" talk from the naysayers? I stated I thought he would still be unique and I'm not going to just keep saying that over and over again, but if you can truly say that Isaac is going to be more unique than someone like Inkling or K. Rool then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

My main points were against the FE character choices and Incineroar not being the best pokemon choice. Being a huge fan of both series I am by no means being unreasonable in my complaints. Simply stating that I as a fan am disappointed in their inability to diversify FE. And their latest choice in Pokemon addition.

But on the topic of Isaac not being as unique as Inkling or K. Rool, it is probably very difficult to add in a character now without copying or making variations of other characters moves. In this regard inkling is at least 50% totally unique with his moveset. K. Rool on the other hand has very little that has not been pulled off of other characters. Now I am not saying he is a badly made fighter or anything, it is actually cool to fight characters with a mishmash of other fighters abilities. But to say that he is more unique than an earth bender who can attack with plants, summon weapons to fall from the sky, and use pets to summon even more abilities is stretching a bit.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

We support #assistalliance and #upgradeassists. There are many assist trophy characters who would make awesome fighters alongside Isaac. Which characters would you guys choose? pic.twitter.com/5kb9gvUI2M

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) January 20, 2019

Lending a hand to the #assistalliance . There are plenty of fantastic assist trophy characters that would make good fighters alongside Isaac

 

[ZelDan]

I for one think it's sickening that the Moon and Thwomp aren't playable characters.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I for one think it's sickening that the Moon and Thwomp aren't playable characters.

You say that, but Chain Chomp became playable in a Mario game before Thwomp. I'd be on my guard.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I for one think it's sickening that the Moon and Thwomp aren't playable characters.

You think that's bad? I've been waiting all my life for a Pong paddle in Smash, and Sakurai gives me this AT garbage?

 

[SonicLink125]

Would it be bad rep if I replied to NoA’s twitter on asking about promoting ATs? I got a post ready to go, but I’m not sure if I should.

Edit: It’s basically saying how after the first wave of DLC, maybe they could consider promoting ATs.

 

[KMDP]

Would it be bad rep if I replied to NoA’s twitter on asking about promoting ATs? I got a post ready to go, but I’m not sure if I should.

Edit: It’s basically saying how after the first wave of DLC, maybe they could consider promoting ATs.

If you do ask, you'll probably get a PR non-answer.

Although it is a good idea to ask, if at least to give Nintendo the view that people are interested in the idea (you'd be surprised how out of touch some companies can be regarding what the fans want).

 

[Frosty Pops]

I for one think it's sickening that the Moon and Thwomp aren't playable characters.

Goomba and Koopa only got spirits probably wondering how PP got picked over them for being recognizable.

We support #assistalliance and #upgradeassists. There are many assist trophy characters who would make awesome fighters alongside Isaac. Which characters would you guys choose? pic.twitter.com/5kb9gvUI2M

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) January 20, 2019

Lending a hand to the #assistalliance . There are plenty of fantastic assist trophy characters that would make good fighters alongside Isaac

Top 10 wasted potential trophies (no specific order)
1. Isaac
2. Shovel Knight
3. Bomberman
4. Zero
5. Waluigi
6. Crystal
7. Prince Sable
8. Dillon
9. Spring Man
10. Phosphora

Look at all the unrepresented IPs and untapped moveset potential! Lol