Getting up from the ledge, and what isn't being said

[A2ZOMG]

It's...very subtly yet drastically different in this game from what I've seen. And I need other people to correct me if I'm wrong. Bear with me.

No, I'm not talking about the universal ledge changes where only your first edge grab gives you invincibility, nor am I talking about the much needed removal of >100% ledge animations.

I'm talking about ledge standing, and shielding. Now here is where you ask me "now wait a minute, what the hell is so significant about this?"

It's because unless I'm just totally wrong, it's actually viable in this game.

In previous Smash games (especially Brawl where ledge getup options are fairly linear), ledge standing was risky for two reasons. One being the obvious it loses to anybody throwing an attack at it. The second being even if you managed to get up unscathed, you were often forced to roll or spotdodge immediately (minus dumb situations where your opponent whiffed something stupidly laggy near the edge). Because if you shielded, you would simply get pushed back off the edge, putting you back in the same terrible position. Not to mention there were characters that could even confirm hits off of this.

I apologize for not collecting specific videos of this, but I swear I have seen multiple instances where a character does a ledge stand, shields X random move (could be a smash attack), and they are still standing on stage.

Overall if what I'm seeing is correct, most ledge stands put you slightly farther inside the stage than they did previously, which overall makes the maneuver safer by giving you more windows where you can defend against mistimed edgetrap attempts and then react with a movement option that gets you back into neutral.

 

[Shaya]

You do not get knocked off of ledges/edges while holding shield from attacks. The shield knockback you'd get can be "reapplied" if you attempt any out of shield option (jumping will push you off the stage as you jump).

 

[Remzi]

You do not get knocked off of ledges/edges while holding shield from attacks. The shield knockback you'd get can be "reapplied" if you attempt any out of shield option (jumping will push you off the stage as you jump).

It's funny, because in Brawl, EVERYTHING was safe on shield if your opponent's back was to the ledge. In this game, almost nothing is safe on block in that same position, because shield pushback is limited to how far away from the edge they are. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it definitely felt counter intuitive for a while.

 

[Shaya]

Eh, back facing to the ledge meant character with broken back air just baited you into hitting their shield

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, back facing to the ledge meant character with broken back air just baited you into hitting their shield

That's not quite what he said. That would mean the character was actually facing the ledge, with their back towards you.

It really is a hard cap based on "if you are shielding and next to the edge you do not move past it"? Wouldn't have expected that, but I agree with the change given how terrible ledge standing used to be previously.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Very powerful hits (like Ness's Pk Thunder 2 or Bowser's fsmash) can still push you off ledges while shielding, but any hit you can get out vaguely quickly won't be enough to do it. I haven't yet worked out the exact requirement for a move to push off ledges, but it has to be in the power range of the higher end smash attacks from what I've seen.

 

[-RedX-]

I think ledge push only occurs if you drop shield while the push from the attack is still active if that makes sense. Holding your shield won't push you off at all it seems.

 

[deepseadiva]

Nice I was noting this as well.

Good to see this confirmed.

 

[Remzi]

I think ledge push only occurs if you drop shield while the push from the attack is still active if that makes sense. Holding your shield won't push you off at all it seems.

That was the theory I had as well. That also explains why the stronger moves tend to push you off more often, because the shield push lasts longer.

 

[popsofctown]

I actually did the stand on stage option in brawl anyway, just because it gives your jumps back whereas attempting to jump onto stage doesn't.

The lack of shield push pushing people off of stage is interesting. I'm trying to work out if there are any jabs in the game that create a lock from this position. I tried it with pikachu's jab and it didn't have enough shieldstun to lock, but other repeated jabs like villager could maybe do it, as could Ness dtilt or jab1 jab2 cancel jab1 jab2 cancel for some character.

 

[Dragoomba]

Considering ledge standing is nigh unpunishable in this game, it seems like the most ideal option at all times from the ledge.

 

[Doval]

Considering ledge standing is nigh unpunishable in this game, it seems like the most ideal option at all times from the ledge.

You still have one or two vulnerable frames. It can't be punished on reaction but any attack with a lot of active frames will stop it, along with edge jumps and edge attacks.