Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[alguidrag]

For me Felix chances are(if Isaac is in)
as a AT doing Isaac Brawl job
as a Alt like Olimar and Alph
as a Echo debuting together with Isaac
as a Echo DLC together with others highly requesteds echos

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sell em in bundles.
3 Echoes for the price of one fighter.

It could work.

I mean, if Nintendo can sell mii fighter outfits I think they will be able to sell Echoes

Mii Costumes are mostly requested characters and cost a lot due to licensing. Or Assist Trophies.

It doesn't work as well as you think. Also, that's still too much for an Echo. They're not even the development time of a regular clone like Dr. Mario in Melee. They're significantly easier to do so, and that's intentional. Dr. Mario in 4 took a decent set of effort to make. Lucina and Dark Pit took far far less. There's a reason Sakurai referred to them as like free dessert. They're meant to be quick and easy to please the fans, not some extra costing thing. The should be free with characters or base game because it's how Sakurai treats them, easy to create and given as a gift development time-wise.

Also, that's wayyyyyyyyy too much price-wise when it comes to a unique fighter. Let's remember 6 Melee clones aren't even equal to the development time of 1 unique newcomer. To get close to Lucas level, you'd need a minimum of 6 if not more Echoes. And Lucas is a semi-clone retooled quickly from Ness in Smash 4. He was super easy to make compared to every other DLC character, including Roy, who are all basically unique newcomers. To put it into perspective, newcomers can take from 6 months to a year to complete. Echoes don't take anywhere close to that amount of time. You could probably give it... a month at most for how much an Echo is, and that's being generous, as that's closer to what a regular clone is(which could take 2 months depending).

So you'd probably want 6 Echoes at the price of a regular unique newcomer at most. If you want to really go with an accurate and reasonable price. Ignoring licensing differences, of course. Say Bayonetta is 5 dollars. An Echo is at least 83 cents to a dollar at most in comparison. And that's noting a super unique character compared to a super fast and easy character. Someone like Lucas is at least double to triple the time it makes an Echo in comparison.

 

[Golden Icarus]

For me I think they would make all DLC echos as a bundle
like dunno
Ninten, Capt falcon villain, Felix, Octolings as a single DLC

I like that idea. I’ve always thought they should either do this or just throw them in as free updates. Similar to how Nintendo add weapons and maps to Splatoon, and various karts and what not to Mario Kart. Given how simple the echoes are, I don’t think that this would be asking too much.

 

[Organization XIII]

I feel like that’s xenoblade 2 is just fanservice the Nintendo JRPG.

Have you played Xenoblade 2? If not it's far more than just fan service you should give it a shot. If you have I'm sorry that's all you got out of the game.

 

[?!?!?!]

I like that idea. I’ve always thought they should either do this or just throw them in as free updates. Similar to how Nintendo add weapons and maps to Splatoon, and various karts and what not to Mario Kart. Given how simple the echoes are, I don’t think that this would be asking too much.

Echoes definitely take much less time to develop than newcomers, but I don't actually think making them is effortless. I think in a recent interview/segment Sakurai said that echo fighters still take up a lot of time to make since they have unique animations, effects, and properties. So I personally don't see Nintendo giving adding them as free updates

 

[Pwnapplez]

Have you played Xenoblade 2? If not it's far more than just fan service you should give it a shot. If you have I'm sorry that's all you got out of the game.

Never played a Xeno game. I wanted to try the first one, but the second one didn’t look like my cup of tea. I’ll blame Nintendo on how they presented the games. That direct when they spent like 10 min talking about the combat. Man what a snore.

I don’t know, I guess I’m not a big fan of the whole “blades and ****” system.

 

[Organization XIII]

Never played a Xeno game. I wanted to try the first one, but the second one didn’t look like my cup of tea. I’ll blame Nintendo on how they presented the games. That direct when they spent like 10 min talking about the combat. Man what a snore.

I don’t know, I guess I’m not a big fan of the whole “blades and ****” system.

That's cool dude but for real Xenoblade is a pretty good series though I didn't care for X personally. I'd really recommend you give them a shot one day. Especially if story is more your thing.

 

[Onassi2]

Mii Costumes are mostly requested characters and cost a lot due to licensing. Or Assist Trophies.

It doesn't work as well as you think. Also, that's still too much for an Echo. They're not even the development time of a regular clone like Dr. Mario in Melee. They're significantly easier to do so, and that's intentional. Dr. Mario in 4 took a decent set of effort to make. Lucina and Dark Pit took far far less. There's a reason Sakurai referred to them as like free dessert. They're meant to be quick and easy to please the fans, not some extra costing thing. The should be free with characters or base game because it's how Sakurai treats them, easy to create and given as a gift development time-wise.

Also, that's wayyyyyyyyy too much price-wise when it comes to a unique fighter. Let's remember 6 Melee clones aren't even equal to the development time of 1 unique newcomer. To get close to Lucas level, you'd need a minimum of 6 if not more Echoes. And Lucas is a semi-clone retooled quickly from Ness in Smash 4. He was super easy to make compared to every other DLC character, including Roy, who are all basically unique newcomers. To put it into perspective, newcomers can take from 6 months to a year to complete. Echoes don't take anywhere close to that amount of time. You could probably give it... a month at most for how much an Echo is, and that's being generous, as that's closer to what a regular clone is(which could take 2 months depending).

So you'd probably want 6 Echoes at the price of a regular unique newcomer at most. If you want to really go with an accurate and reasonable price. Ignoring licensing differences, of course. Say Bayonetta is 5 dollars. An Echo is at least 83 cents to a dollar at most in comparison. And that's noting a super unique character compared to a super fast and easy character. Someone like Lucas is at least double to triple the time it makes an Echo in comparison.

With all due respect, how could you possibly have information that specific when it comes to development? I’m not a programmer or game designer, but unless you’ve worked on the game, how would you be able to gauge how long it takes to create an echo vs. semi clone vs. unique newcomer? Because “a year to create a newcomer” seems like waaaay too much time.

Are there interviews with Sakurai I haven’t read about?

 

[Deleted member]

I tried playing the original Xenoblade, and I just couldn't get into it. Like, at all.

I've always wanted to play X, but I am not shelling out money for a Wii U.

Xenoblade 2 has Elma now as DLC, but the RPG system they got is too difficult for me to grasp. One of the reasons why I love Golden Sun is the variety you had in combat.

 

[DogManStar]

Xenoblade 1 is a pretty great game, but it drags too much for me to personally call it a favorite. idk why I feel that way. I sunk tons of hours into the Persona series but I've never been able to get past the halfway point of Xenoblade 1.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

With all due respect, how could you possibly have information that specific when it comes to development? I’m not a programmer or game designer, but unless you’ve worked on the game, how would you be able to gauge how long it takes to create an echo vs. semi clone vs. unique newcomer? Because “a year to create a newcomer” seems like waaaay too much time.

Are there interviews with Sakurai I haven’t read about?

Yes. He's said a character takes 6 months to a year to create. Lucario took a full year due to his aura mechanic.

Echoes are made clear they take way less time than regular unique newcomers. He noted how easy they were. Though I can understand the argument they take as much time as a regular clone, it's been known that Echoes also were not done the same way as clones either. They were at first alternate costumes(in 4) turned into super quick clone variations. While clones had to remake models to create certain characters. For instance, Falco had to use a new model to match Fox's model, as they weren't the same height. Young Link also had to reuse Link's model, but they are significantly different sizes and have way more attribute differences and even fully different moves.

I have not found how long it took to make clones and echoes specifically. So that's a fair thing to say. I could be way off, and yeah, that's a good counterpoint. I just know that he only spoke of the Echoes and Dr. Mario as free dessert, but never any other clone set, so there's an implication one took more time. Also, he did say that the 6 Melee Clones did not take as much time as it would be to make a single unique newcomer, like King Dedede. Or Wario, if you will(the only two other major characters he intended to be in Melee but couldn't do so. Others were considered).

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Xeno 1 is one of my favorite games of all-time. Story sucks you in, characters are all immensely lovable, maps had great attention to detail with the perspective on the Bionis/Mechonis, and the game had such ambitious scale for being on the Wii. X was a mixed bag for me but I still love Elma, the environments, and the world-building sidequests.

Golden Sun really satisfies a different kind of niche for me. I like the music, combat, and abilities more than anything else. It's a nice blend of 2D Zelda dungeon/puzzles and classic JRPG fare. Xenoblade is more for the immersion, atmosphere, and real-time battle style.

 

[GoodGrief741]

For what it’s worth, I’d be willing to pay full price for a DLC Echo, especially if they’re characters I want as bad as Dark Samus or as developed as Chrom. Really, given how Ultimate is the Ultimate Smash game, and how I missed out on 4’s DLC bar Mewtwo (thank God for eShop region select), I’ll probably buy every single DLC character. But I understand I’m in the minority, and I’m curious to see how Nintendo’ll handle it. Maybe an Echo bundled with every newcomer? Maybe we won’t get DLC Echoes?

 

[Nossnitro102]

Ughhh... the waiting... the waiting!!

 

[?!?!?!]

Ughhh... the waiting... the waiting!!

Just 2-3 weeks until a Nintendo direct and at least one character reveal! Feels like forever but we'll get there soon enough

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For what it’s worth, I’d be willing to pay full price for a DLC Echo, especially if they’re characters I want as bad as Dark Samus or as developed as Chrom. Really, given how Ultimate is the Ultimate Smash game, and how I missed out on 4’s DLC bar Mewtwo (thank God for eShop region select), I’ll probably buy every single DLC character. But I understand I’m in the minority, and I’m curious to see how Nintendo’ll handle it. Maybe an Echo bundled with every newcomer? Maybe we won’t get DLC Echoes?

DLC echoes could be the only thing free or severely cheap. For the most part, it appears that regular DLC costs appear to be based upon the work required to make them + licensing where applicable. Bundles are cheaper. Though I can't say for sure, as I'd have to look into the exact prices and do a lot of comparisons/math.

But yeah, paying for "what are almost entirely costumes on regular characters" isn't very popular. Even moreso, there were a lot of complaints on the Mii Costumes being overpriced for what they were. Of course, I didn't feel the Smash DLC was unfairly priced, but I get what the point is. When you're not paying for actual hard playable differences, you feel cheated. It's like how overpriced Amiibo Festival was, considering it only had two Amiibo. 30 dollars would've made sense for the actual content required(lots of amiibo).

 

[Eagle]

Just 2-3 weeks until a Nintendo direct and at least one character reveal! Feels like forever but we'll get there soon enough

How do you know? Have we heard something?

 

[?!?!?!]

How do you know? Have we heard something?

Nah, but it seems reasonable for a direct to be within that time frame since the online service will launch soon after

 

[DogManStar]

How do you know? Have we heard something?

Merely speculation, but there is usually a direct in September as far as I can tell.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Mii Costumes are mostly requested characters and cost a lot due to licensing. Or Assist Trophies.

It doesn't work as well as you think. Also, that's still too much for an Echo. They're not even the development time of a regular clone like Dr. Mario in Melee. They're significantly easier to do so, and that's intentional. Dr. Mario in 4 took a decent set of effort to make. Lucina and Dark Pit took far far less. There's a reason Sakurai referred to them as like free dessert. They're meant to be quick and easy to please the fans, not some extra costing thing. The should be free with characters or base game because it's how Sakurai treats them, easy to create and given as a gift development time-wise.

Also, that's wayyyyyyyyy too much price-wise when it comes to a unique fighter. Let's remember 6 Melee clones aren't even equal to the development time of 1 unique newcomer. To get close to Lucas level, you'd need a minimum of 6 if not more Echoes. And Lucas is a semi-clone retooled quickly from Ness in Smash 4. He was super easy to make compared to every other DLC character, including Roy, who are all basically unique newcomers. To put it into perspective, newcomers can take from 6 months to a year to complete. Echoes don't take anywhere close to that amount of time. You could probably give it... a month at most for how much an Echo is, and that's being generous, as that's closer to what a regular clone is(which could take 2 months depending).

So you'd probably want 6 Echoes at the price of a regular unique newcomer at most. If you want to really go with an accurate and reasonable price. Ignoring licensing differences, of course. Say Bayonetta is 5 dollars. An Echo is at least 83 cents to a dollar at most in comparison. And that's noting a super unique character compared to a super fast and easy character. Someone like Lucas is at least double to triple the time it makes an Echo in comparison.

For what it's worth, Echo fighters seem to have a much better reception this time around than back during when the ballot began. I suspect that has something to do with the picks being based on fan input and all of that.


An echo character DLC pack or even DLC characters for a buck would still be viewed pretty favorably if it's executed right.

(Though, it's hard to say if ALL echo fighters are actually that easy to create. Certainly easier than a unique character. However, Chrom and DS do seem a lot more unique than i originally thought, so it might just vary between echos.)

 

[bassem6]

Really like this version of Isaac's battle theme and the artwork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMLZM5y1ZU

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Really like this version of Isaac's battle theme and the artwork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMLZM5y1ZU

For some reason, i think there is an instrument missing. And if it is there, it's pretty weak.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For what it's worth, Echo fighters seem to have a much better reception this time around than back during when the ballot began. I suspect that has something to do with the picks being based on fan input and all of that.


An echo character DLC pack or even DLC characters for a buck would still be viewed pretty favorably if it's executed right.

(Though, it's hard to say if ALL echo fighters are actually that easy to create. Certainly easier than a unique character. However, Chrom and DS do seem a lot more unique than i originally thought, so it might just vary between echos.)

Yeah, Echo Fighters are just gaining better reception, but that's probably due to the start and labeling them as such. Also, every single new Echo were already a popular character or an understandable inclusion(as Richter was actually someone people liked over Simon. Not as iconic, of course). So it's more just that were already popular choices to begin with.

That however doesn't make it work for characters that we don't know what their popularity are when it comes to Smash. So we can't really say for the Octolings. We also don't know if they'd be received well at all if they were paid DLC. That can matter a lot too. We just have good reception for the base roster, with a few people kind of pissed off at Richter because they think all third parties should be unique too.

 

[GoodGrief741]

For what it's worth, Echo fighters seem to have a much better reception this time around than back during when the ballot began. I suspect that has something to do with the picks being based on fan input and all of that.


An echo character DLC pack or even DLC characters for a buck would still be viewed pretty favorably if it's executed right.

(Though, it's hard to say if ALL echo fighters are actually that easy to create. Certainly easier than a unique character. However, Chrom and DS do seem a lot more unique than i originally thought, so it might just vary between echos.)

That’s true. If we get ‘Echo Fighters in name only’ like Chrom, as in they’re made stitching together moves from different characters, I could see people actually wanting to buy them.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Yeah, Echo Fighters are just gaining better reception, but that's probably due to the start and labeling them as such. Also, every single new Echo were already a popular character or an understandable inclusion(as Richter was actually someone people liked over Simon. Not as iconic, of course). So it's more just that were already popular choices to begin with.

That however doesn't make it work for characters that we don't know what their popularity are when it comes to Smash. So we can't really say for the Octolings. We also don't know if they'd be received well at all if they were paid DLC. That can matter a lot too. We just have good reception for the base roster, with a few people kind of pissed off at Richter because they think all third parties should be unique too.

Richter actually plays a lot like Simon. Just upgraded. (So basically he plays the same as Simon in ultimate.) So i don't get why people are pissed off at Richter. Castlevania being represented at all in any game should be a blessing.

But yeah. We don't know how they would be received. I think it just depends on how different they are as an echo.

That’s true. If we get ‘Echo Fighters in name only’ like Chrom, as in they’re made stitching together moves from different characters, I could see people actually wanting to buy them.

Like, i would legit buy Dark Samus as DLC if she was ever revealed to be DLC later after Ultimate's release.

Her differences and aesthetic is very much eyecatching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=22&v=sXG-oI6VChg

 

[Saer2k]

Richter actually plays a lot like Simon. Just upgraded. (So basically he plays the same as Simon in ultimate.) So i don't get why people are pissed off at Richter. Castlevania being represented at all in any game should be a blessing.

But yeah. We don't know how they would be received. I think it just depends on how different they are as an echo.

I didn't know some people hated Richter. From what I seen so far, a lot people wants to actually try Richter out (Including myself).

 

[jweb23]

I feel like people expecting some explosive final character reveal are going to be let down. It may very well be a surprising character, but it isn't necessarily going to be one that sends shock waves across the gaming community.

I mean Duck Hunt is our point of reference here for a final (official) reveal. (and Shulk for a final reveal before release)

To be fair, we are in uncharted territory here. Sakurai has never made a game where he solely added characters off of fan demand, so the reveal schedule of a past game most likely means nothing compared to Ultimate's. Assuming the final reveal could be a massive surprise or the most hype of the bunch (kinda hard to do considering who we already have revealed) is not that farfetched of an idea.

I dunno if I would buy echos if they were DLC I mean I do essentially have the character already

Honestly I would be shocked if dlc echo fighters, assuming we even get any, are not packaged with a unique newcomer or some stages. I highly doubt they would be sold by themselves.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Richter actually plays a lot like Simon. Just upgraded. (So basically he plays the same as Simon in ultimate.) So i don't get why people are pissed off at Richter. Castlevania being represented at all in any game should be a blessing.

There's a belief that every 3rd party should be truly special. I thought so too, then an Echo came along. This was part of why I didn't think we'd ever get a second Sonic character. I can understand that, since 3rd parties are always special guests and all.

 

[Organization XIII]

I didn't know some people hated Richter. From what I seen so far, a lot people wants to actually try Richter out (Including myself).

I just have mainly seen people confused as to who he is but not hate him.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

There's a belief that every 3rd party should be truly special. I thought so too, then an Echo came along. This was part of why I didn't think we'd ever get a second Sonic character. I can understand that, since 3rd parties are always special guests and all.

To be honest, i can understand that. 3rd party characters are a very special guests. However, i feel like making echo fighters of 3rd party characters would be a lot easier for both the developers and Nintendo. (Since Nintendo needs to get approval from the 3rd party companies about how they portray the companies characters in smash.)

Honestly I would be shocked if dlc echo fighters, assuming we even get any, are not packaged with a unique newcomer or some stages. I highly doubt they would be sold by themselves.

I'm actually getting an idea here.


Let's say Ken isn't in Smash Bros. (Even though there is a strong possibility he will be) and was instead sold for DLC. Let's say people wouldn't like it.

Well, let's add Chun-Li, a unique fighter, into the mix.

Then we add a new Street Fighter stage into the mix.

Suddenly, the echo feels way less intrusive when introduced with something of much more value.

I'm sure a bundle like that would received pretty well.

 

[pholtos]

Don't have much to add to the current convo, so update on my GSPPO run, and yup, thought this might happen. In the fight I was worried about, too.

I'm going to need to use my psynergy a bit more efficiently, either that or go grind a level or two and try again.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, I'm sure bundles will sell wayyyyyy better than an Echo alone. It's probably the best option.

Also, I feel if we get Felix as an Echo, he might work better as base since they could change them up a bit more in their gameplay focus.

 

[Lonodel]

If we get Felix as an echo I want sand to be his rolls lol

 

[Johnknight1]

Richter actually plays a lot like Simon. Just upgraded. (So basically he plays the same as Simon in ultimate.) So i don't get why people are pissed off at Richter. Castlevania being represented at all in any game should be a blessing.

But yeah. We don't know how they would be received. I think it just depends on how different they are as an echo.

Yeah I don't know how you could be mad. Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night are amazing, and Richter is cool as hell in both of them. Also Super Castlevania IV is an all-time classic.

"Castlevania being represented at all in any game should be a blessing."

That is such a real quote. Castlevania is too damn cool, fun and good of a series. Play Castlevania games folks.

Like, i would legit buy Dark Samus as DLC if she was ever revealed to be DLC later after Ultimate's release.

Her differences and aesthetic is very much eyecatching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=22&v=sXG-oI6VChg

This 100%. Dark Samus looks soooooooooooo cool and the movement Dark Samus has is amazing.

Daisy looks so fun and I love the way she looks and her moves function.

Additionally I hateddddddddddddddd the idea of Chrom being a boring take on Ike + Marth (mostly because I wanted Robin and Roy instead) in Smash 4, but now, oh man. I love how he is a combination of all that. Plus I always liked the character in Awakening (the "rain mission" from Awakening where he goes berserk still gives me goosebumps; if you've played Awakening, you know the scene I'm referring to).

Overall the amount of detail put into Echo Fighters is better than the details Capcom puts into a few Street Fighter V original moveset characters. Heck, Zero as an Assist Trophy looks considerably better as an Assist Trophy character in Smash Ultimate than he does in Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite.

If we are blessed with a Golden Sun Assist Trophy character and/or an Echo Fighter, we should be incredibly happy. Because 100% it's gonna look sickkkkkkkk.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Yeah, I'm sure bundles will sell wayyyyyy better than an Echo alone. It's probably the best option.

Also, I feel if we get Felix as an Echo, he might work better as base since they could change them up a bit more in their gameplay focus.

Another idea i think would work well to make the bundles sell more is having a discount with the bundle. (As absurd as the idea may be.)

Have bundle that has a unique fighter, an echo, and a stage say "If you buy this bundle, you will save 5% off than if you bought them individually."

(The WiiU/3DS purchase kinda had this method, i believe.)

And yeah, Felix would work better as a base game echo.

 

[Blackwolf666]

For me if Isaac became playable I'd want an alternate costume for Matthew.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Yeah I don't know how you could be mad. Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night are amazing, and Richter is cool as hell in both of them. Also Super Castlevania IV is an all-time classic.

"Castlevania being represented at all in any game should be a blessing."

That is such a real quote. Castlevania is too damn cool, fun and good of a series. Play Castlevania games folks.

Castlevania is legit. I even wish i could play Rondo of blood, but i don't have a good emulator or a rom patching tool.

However, if anyone reading ever wants to play a Castlevania game, here a few titles i recommend avoiding.

- DraculaX (Snes) [ Mostly because both the original and the remake are so much better. ]

- Judgement (wii) [ The only good thing about Judgement is it's soundtrack. ]

- All the 3DS titles. [ I like Samus Returns, but even i can't defend these. ]

This 100%. Dark Samus looks soooooooooooo cool and the movement Dark Samus has is amazing.

Daisy looks so fun and I love the way she looks and her moves function.

Additionally I hateddddddddddddddd the idea of Chrom being a boring take on Ike + Marth (mostly because I wanted Robin and Roy instead) in Smash 4, but now, oh man. I love how he is a combination of all that. Plus I always liked the character in Awakening (the "rain mission" from Awakening where he goes berserk still gives me goosebumps; if you've played Awakening, you know the scene I'm referring to).

Overall the amount of detail put into Echo Fighters is better than the details Capcom puts into a few Street Fighter V original moveset characters. Heck, Zero as an Assist Trophy looks considerably better as an Assist Trophy character in Smash Ultimate than he does in Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite.

If we are blessed with a Golden Sun Assist Trophy character and/or an Echo Fighter, we should be incredibly happy. Because 100% it's gonna look sickkkkkkkk.

I find it so strange that Dark Samus and Chrom are considered "echos", but Dr. Mario, Roy, Toon Link and Young Link aren't.

I'm honestly thinking only Dark Pit and Lucina were labeled like that due to their negative reception in 4. xD

OH YEAH GOLDEN SUN ASSIST TROPHIES WOULD BE SICK.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pretty sure it's because Echoes aren't made the same was the previous clones. Do note that they still have the same moveset as the base character, with only animation tweaks and at best a Final Smash. Unique animations for things like taunts, slightly varied aesthetics, are not the same thing as entirely different movesets, weights, etc. Dr. Mario, like the rest of the clones are significantly different in their weights, power, knockback, abilities, and even have different models(though similar enough ones. Dr. Mario is the only clone with the same model).

Echoes are easy 1:1 clones. Regular clones are not 1:1 inherently. Plus, Dr. Mario has a very different moveset with severely different properties.

 

[Holdenon]

Count me in as a supporter, I love Golden Sun!

 

[GoodGrief741]

I hope there is an edition of Smash Ultimate with a Season Pass. Otherwise the DLC for this game is gonna bleed me dry. (And I’ll love every second of it.

I find it so strange that Dark Samus and Chrom are considered "echos", but Dr. Mario, Roy, Toon Link and Young Link aren't.

I'm honestly thinking only Dark Pit and Lucina were labeled like that due to their negative reception in 4. xD

This. Dark Samus and Chrom could have been labeled as unique Fighters and I don’t think anybody would have complained. Plus we’d all be more scared about how few characters are probably left, and Sakurai trollmaster feeds on our fear.