Geno Boost
Smash Master
i feel knowing how nintendo handled rosalina after how she was in mario galaxy Geno personality might die, Mallow would probably stay the same
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Geno's Bizarre Adventure part 2: Stardust Crusaders (Geno Support Thread #2)
- Thread starter Megadoomer
- Start date
WeirdAlFan101
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So on my SNES classic, with SMRPG, I have two different save files, one is where I'm completely leveled up and I haven't fought Culex yet, and I can repeat that fight over and over again.
Yesterday with that file, I decided to go into it after putting the Hero Shirt on Mario in place of the Super Suit, and the Royal Dress on Peach in place of the Lazy Shell armor, to give myself a challenge out of curiosity.
And boy was my curiosity answered. My sister always joked about Peach being the "strongest knight" that Culex wishes to fight, but without the Lazy Shell? Not so much.
While everyone kept taking over 100 damage repeatedly, Geno was the only one who never died at any point during that battle. I never realized how different an experience it was without the two best armors in the game.
Yesterday with that file, I decided to go into it after putting the Hero Shirt on Mario in place of the Super Suit, and the Royal Dress on Peach in place of the Lazy Shell armor, to give myself a challenge out of curiosity.
And boy was my curiosity answered. My sister always joked about Peach being the "strongest knight" that Culex wishes to fight, but without the Lazy Shell? Not so much.
While everyone kept taking over 100 damage repeatedly, Geno was the only one who never died at any point during that battle. I never realized how different an experience it was without the two best armors in the game.
ForsakenM
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It's more like things take time to resolve, if they are even able to resolve at all.
See, to us fans without using any 'in their shoes' mindset, it's as simple us gimme Geno, gimme See Ya, gimme Cookie.
For Nintendo, the first thing they have to do is judge if this is worth investing time, manpower, and money into. Is there enough of a demand worth making a supply in the first place, and I'd would argue that is wasn't worth it until the Switch Era. The push for Geno in Brawl had a lot of backing from us SMRPG fans, but the original conversation was mostly due to people who didn't care about SMRPG figuring out what Square character could even get in, ruling out bigger wants like Cloud. The Wii U was an absolute failure, so it's only right now that things have been worth investing in for making a new Mario RPG that isn't Paper Mario or M&L.
Now, Nintendo ALSO has to weigh working with Square about this, because they simply own everything but the Mario characters and the name of the game, and because of some of the naming they actually technically own some Nintendo-esq characters in terms of design (see Megasmilax as a prime example). Back during the Wii Era, Square and Nintendo still had a bit of tension between them, and considering Nintendo was racking in cash and Square was starting to flounder a bit with not having success with DQ overseas and the FF games they made during this era were FF12 and FF13, so I think it's understandable if Nintendo didn't want to work with them.
For the WiiU Era, Nintendo couldn't get any third party support to really stick around for that flop, and honestly the original version of FF14 came out in this era, so needless to say both companies were doing rather poorly. Thus, it really wasn't the time to work together for something.
Now, we are in the Switch Era, starting in 2017. Nintendo is doing incredibly well, Square is doing very well. Both companies are branching out to attempt new things to a certain degree, both companies are working with other companies consistently, both companies are being seen as mostly good in the public eye...AND we already know they are working together for both old and new IPs. They have already made brand new spicy games together, and Square keeps dropping tons of old classics onto the console. Sakurai already knew about the support for Geno back during the end of Smash 4 and was public about it. The tweet of Team Mallow and Team Geno was in 2018, so they have known since at least that long. We just had a Mario Anniversary that we could STILL be seeing games from because of COVID delays or even just because they started development later. Square clearly has most of their team working on milking the **** outta FF7R stuff, but they have already shown that they on working on other projects at the same time.
Basically, I know we are testy right now and TYPICALLY this would be the time to give up on our blue puppet boi for another like five years or something, but what I'm saying is that times are changing and we are coming into the time frame where some seriously sexy Nintendo stuff could be happening so we should be on the lookout for that. Once we hit like 2024-2025 and nothing amazing has happened is when we can start complaining about the staff who are doing their best and have like 500 other IPs to juggle outside of our favorite one.
See, I get this. Literally every Smash game feels like it has been doing this up until DLC for Ultimate.
Smash 64 was brand new and all Nintendo characters, and did an amazing job picking the best ones.
Melee brought over highly demanded Mario characters and Zelda characters as well as giving us probably the most popular legendary Pokemon at the time (and still popular today) and giving the West it's first real taste of Fire Emblem.
Brawl is when Sakurai essentially went ape**** and we got a lot of great things. Lucario was a big deal then, I'm not sure about Ike's popularity yet but I know he's a big deal for FE fans, Gen 1 got all the starters repped, the greedy lad himself showed up, Pit was reborn, Kirby got two reps, Metroid got a different Samus, Diddy FINALLY showed up, Pikmin got their rep, Mother 3 got recognized and it absolutely can't be understated that even though they are third party Snake and Sonic blew the roof right off of Smash for the rest of it's time as a franchise.
Smash 4 did a good job too: Animal Crossing made it's debut, the success of the Wii got a character (technically multiple characters), probably the two most popular first party Mario characters that aren't Wah got in, Little Mac was finally realized, Greninja was (and still is) a popular mon, Kid Icarus got two more reps, FE got some more love and people were okay with it at the time, and not to mention Shulk is like first party/second party now if he wasn't already considered that when he got in and that was HUGE for the Xenoblade franchise. We also got good third party with Megaman and Pac Man, and that's not looking at the DLC which did amazing on third party but pretty piss-poor on first party outside of veterans.
Ultimate's base game did pretty dope with this, because we got Inklings which was a MAJOR inclusion, as well as finally adding Ridley and King K. Rool after all these years. We got Chrom, Dark Samus and Daisy as echoes, and we got Isabelle for a second AC rep. The new Mon was pretty divisive, but outside of the big long-term requests, we honestly didn't do as well for first party inclusions in terms of fully-unique characters like we have in the past. The hype came from how long some of these requests were around rather than from the multitude of first party characters we got.
The DLC didn't really do well with this since all the inclusions were essentially shilling, even for the more beloved ones, putting in characters from much more recent titles. We got a teacher wielding weapons that they don't really canonically wield just to avoid being another 'FE anime swordsman' from a franchise the community is sick of seeing get characters in Smash, a Chinese noodle woman from a goofy semi-fighting game that was already dead as a game, and everyone's favorite big booba team from a game that did overall very well but felt like it already missed it's chance and people had moved on to different wants by then.
This is a big reason why the first party DLC has been so lackluster for most people, including myself: we didn't get enough older first party picks to find these to be acceptable, and honestly if all of these happened in the base game, people would have likely been more hype for them overall. DLC is supposed to be for the 'impossible for base game' picks, but Ultimate's DLC has basically included characters that we would have expected to show up in base Ultimate or base Smash 6. Essentially, the community got them earlier than they were ready for them, while they were expecting things like Crash or Geno or Lloyd.
I did some searching, and I fought out something else that makes this less acceptable to the community as well: Ultimate is on record for the fewest new first party IP inclusions in Smash history. Not counting the OG because everything was a new inclusion there, each new Smash game has made sure to add multiple new first party IPs to the game as well as include more characters to expand the number of characters in first party IPs already added to the game in the past. Thus far, Melee included three new IP franchises (four if you see Dr. Mario as his own thing, which Nintendo seemingly doesn't), Brawl included four, Smash 4 included five (six if you count the Miis), and Ultimate added...one. Once again, this is counting only brand new first party inclusions, of which Ultimate really dropped the ball with only including Splatoon in the base game.
If you view FP2 as spackling already, this makes even more sense now, as ARMS and XBC2 missed their chance in the base game only to be redeemed in DLC when I feel like most people would have rather waited to see them in the next game. Add in Sephy being chosen mainly to fix Cloud's problems and Kazuya chosen to fulfill a Smash 4 promise essentially, and we are looking at a pass that seemed more focused on using the DLC to fix problems than to grant requests...and that's a BIG problem in itself. Also, if you consider the whirling abouts that Hero and Byleth were originally base game material to be true, that would meant that two bits of FP1 were also spackling.
In addition, we are still waiting for inclusions like Wah, Isaac, Skullkid, Krystal, BWD, Lyn, Dixie, Porky, Elma, Marx, Toad/Captain Toad, Chorus Kids/Karate Joe, Ninten, Mach Rider...so not only did they not include the newer first party characters in the base game, but they also didn't introduce any of THESE first parties and only granted to the biggest requests in Ridley and K. Rool, then proceeded to not add any of these character in DLC but instead plug in the character people would have been okay with in the base game but didn't want to really show up here?
This has me convinced that Nintendo really did have most of the say with this DLC, as pretty much nothing from these passes other than B&K screams thinking with the fans in mind, and I'm not even just talking about core audiences here. Think about it: every single other pick has massive justifiable business reasons to have them included, with B&K as the only outlier as it would have made sense to have Steve or Chief instead in terms of money making.
D
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That's probably true, but I think it ignores the fact that Sakurai seemingly considers even the smallest amount of representation for a franchise to, in some capacity, be as meaningful as a fighter and/or a stage. I think his statements regarding spirit battles, in which he implies that you are making more dream matchups happen is proof enough of this. Obviously anyone with a brain is well aware that nothing changes when Mario goes into battle with an extra PNG by his percentage icon, but I guess they're trying to appeal to the imagination of children.
In that way, Ultimate probably does have fewer first-time first party inclusions than any Smash game ever because those games and characters have already been represented in Smash. Golden Sun for instance... It has music, an assist trophy, and a whole host of spirits. It's been in Smash since Brawl, but has seen the most representation ever in Ultimate. Franchises/games that are 100% absolute nobodies like Devil World and other even lesser known Japan only NES titles got a lot of shoutouts in Melee, and the ones that Melee didn't cover, Brawl definitely did. Splatoon was represented in Sm4sh well before Ultimate. The bottom of the barrel has already been scraped so hard that there's chunks of wood in the wine, I'd dare say that Ultimate entered the world with zero Nintendo franchises left to represent for the first time.
I don't like it, and it's the easiest and cheapest padding possible, but still qualifies as part of this unrealistically big crossover from a marketing standpoint, despite being the equivalent of having Isaac on a billboard somewhere in the city that Wrecking Crew takes place in and calling that a Golden Sun crossover.
I might even go as far as to start arguing that Min Min is, unfortunately, a fan request... At least as far as Nintendo's relatively poor perception of "fan requests" goes: Even for as few people as probably actually wanted an ARMS fighter, there was a very visible amount of people that vocalized surprise that all ARMS got was spirits and an assist trophy. The same goes for Pythra.
This also comes from a mindset that these underwhelming "hole patching" first party inclusions have been 100% free* padding for a DLC season that was probably only drafted as Sephiroth and Steve. The costs involved with getting the rights to not just Sephiroth, but a decently stacked music list when the rights are all over the place, plus the development costs for something like Steve were probably just too much to feasibly get any return on selling two characters for 6 bucks a piece, but obviously they didn't want to jack the already unreasonable a la carte price for these packs up to something like $10. The clear solution is underwhelming filler content that Nintendo doesn't have to pay a dime for outside of development costs, which given the simplicity, was likely very cheap. This is why I think the strongest CP 11 pick is Waluigi, because at least for once the underwhelming filler content would "delight fans".
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Dan
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This is such an amazing post... really shows you how downhill they've gone; however, you did forget to mention how poor of an ending Smash 4 had with the first FE over-representation where it originally became a problem as well as them lying about Bayonetta winning the ballot, so I guess that was the beginning of the end. The DLC has always sucked and always will. If the character isn't an obvious home-run pick (Cloud, Ryu, etc.) it will suck.
If you do something as simple like replace Piranha Plant and Byleth with Geno and Issac then the DLC totally takes a 180 and feels more fair and bearable. The oldheads are literally starving. The DLC is so bad; it is literally Banjo struggling to survive in a sea of boring human characters.
Also, I don't really think Elma or Lyn should be on your list anymore cause they should have to wait a long while to get in now.
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Good thing they didn't lie. What actually happened is people misread their point, and actually thought it was a real ballot)instead of the suggestion box as intended).
It's really silly to keep trying to put forth the "one winner" premise when we know it's false anyway. Again, the term ballot is baaaaaad, but it definitely would've sounded better than Smash Suggestion Box, so despite the incorrect work usage, it sounded better. And marketability was important too.
- Bayonetta was top 5 among the US votes. And number 1 in Europe. They aren't lies.
- They talk about how she's a realizable character. Because it's referred to as "top 5 among realizable characters", it gave a conclusion that the ballot was why. But that's not the case, and she was already in the game anyway. This is understandably poor wording, though not actual lying. You can still be that but not chosen due to the ballot.
- We know she had data very early on, so she'd have to have been chosen 2 weeks into the ballot, but still have data anyway, meaning she was considered and worked on. What is however possible is the work done was more of a "proof of concept" to begin with and the Ballot, which she did "win"(though it's still a suggestion box anyway) legitimately in one region, would mean it made Sega want to definitely say yes. But we don't have a way to confirm that possibility either.
- Again, suggestion box is way more accurate. Ridley, Simon, Richter, King K. Rool, and the way Sakurai talks about it, Dark Samus and Chrom, are all winners on the ballot, since they were added due to it. You can maybe say the last two weren't because of the ballot alone. Daisy is also likely the case. Besides that, there's a reason Golden Sun got so much damn content. Ballot. The reality is is that it's not just officially used for more than one character(meaning it can't have a single winner), but it also, as a suggestion box in practice(not named one, but it's pretty much what it is), it helped influence tons of returning and new content. Who knows what other AT's or series got big boots due to it alone. Golden Sun is the only obvious one to begin with. And well, it can be presumed Banjo & Kazooie were too. Being a fan demand character. Sephiroth and Steve may have even been related(since they're extremely popular characters). Only other fan demand otherwise would be Min Min(she's massively popular as a character) and Pythra(same), though only the latter two could've been ballot-related. Hero may have been related too, since it's actually a very popular pick in Japan(specifically the class, not a particular hero alone).
- They also said that a character may be added as Smash 4 DLC due to it. Meaning that, well, Bayonetta may not have been added due to it, but that doesn't mean she didn't score high at all.
It's really silly to keep trying to put forth the "one winner" premise when we know it's false anyway. Again, the term ballot is baaaaaad, but it definitely would've sounded better than Smash Suggestion Box, so despite the incorrect work usage, it sounded better. And marketability was important too.
Dinoman96
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What are you even talking about? Tons of people were wanting Rex/a XB2 rep character as DLC since like 2018. They didn't "move on to different wants" or "would rather wait to see them in the next game".
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Vector Victor
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Honestly, I felt that it was crap with how they handled Xenoblade 2 in Smash originally and thought that they kind of owed the series. I'm sorry, but you can't exclude a series due to the timing of their game release and then have Byleth playable.
Also, I vastly prefer Pyra and Mythra's Smash designs. Their original designs were just an eye rolling "OK, BREASTS. We get it!"
Also, I vastly prefer Pyra and Mythra's Smash designs. Their original designs were just an eye rolling "OK, BREASTS. We get it!"
D
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I don't disagree, but I think this is comedic. There's nothing "boring" about human characters or even dudes with swords. We're just all sick and tired of Fire Emblem Lord #15 getting into the game and "anime swordfighter" is too good of a catch term.
I have such mixed feelings about Xenoblade. Xenoblade Chronicles itself is a masterpiece, right up there with its grandfather in spirit, Xenogears. I hoped that Shulk would end up in Smash 4 and he did, much to my surprise given how poorly Xenoblade Chronicles was handled in the US. Then you have Xenoblade X, which I heard very little good about, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2, that to me feels like a vastly inferior game to the first Xenoblade Chronicles and visually comes off as some kind of fetish hentai game. I don't mind anime tiddy, I think it's an important part of the culture... but XC2's character design... Something about it feels too much like I've found someone's favorite stuff under their bed. I just want to put it back and pretend I never saw it.
Regardless of how I feel about the game itself, I do agree that when Byleth got put into the game, it laid bare the fact that XC2 did not release too late to be added, if Greninja's inclusion in 4 didn't already. I had been very adamant that Sakurai simply did not see any value in including Rex or could not come up with a decent moveset for him, and I think Pythra's inclusion is proof that I was right. Using a particular blade to tackle a particular problem seems to be a core part of XC2's gameplay, and to me that would suggest creating something of a stance character similar to Shulk, but instead we got a very uninspired generic swordsman fused with Pokemon trainer. This is a reason I'm willing to say that Pythra is a fan demand met, just probably not a whole lot of fans here - people were angry that Rex got the treatment he did, especially after Byleth hit us with the "so that was a ****ing lie", and Nintendo picked up on it fast and decided to fix the problem for the low low cost of $5.99.
I like to think that even outside of heavy speculation like we do here, people are generally aware of how fighters don't just magically appear in Smash. It's a months long process, if not years long for some. We aren't going to be fooled by statements about timing when we know how long games are in development and how hard a given character may be pushed by a company to be included in Smash. I think it's funny how every time Nintendo tells Sakurai to lie to us about why a character is or isn't in the game, they get caught in that lie every single time. I guess they want to try to justify it to the fans, but it would be smarter for them to just not mention it at this point. The real reason is always going to boil down to "we couldn't get the rights" or "this character wouldn't benefit us in the long run" or "we couldn't think of a moveset" and I know that last one is never going to come out of a Japanese developer's mouth.
Firox
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lol 100% agree. The most scathing load of bullcrap was Sakurai's excuse "BuT tHe TiMiNg!" and then he throws in Byleth when their game hadn't even released yet. Just be honest and say that they weren't a priority for Nintendo at the time. You know it. They know it. We all know it, so let's just stop playing hide the ball. It was at least nice that Nintendo recognized enough demand for XC2 to follow up. Wish they'd listen a bit more for other franchises...
And yeah, the original designs for Pythra were pretty much in your face screaming "FEAST YOUR EYES ON THE SEXY WAIFUS!" It was like a horny 13 yr old boy designed those costumes.
I can tell you from experience that XC2 was a pretty awesome game regardless of all the fanservice. Sure, the costumes were a bit in your face, but the story, world and combat were fairly sharp and I do feel that Pythra was a good inclusion for Smash. The Xenoblade franchise as a whole deserves more representation. (Certainly more than freaking FE.)
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D
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I don't think I could say this and mean it. The franchise has 3 games vs Fire Emblem's 13 or something, excluding remakes, but I can agree that Fire Emblem hasn't really managed to produce characters different enough from one another to warrant a ton of representatives in a crossover fighter without just reskinning one character over and over... Which come to think of it...
My opinion on how many fighters a franchise gets is honestly too hard to elaborate on. Fire Emblem definitely does not deserve 8, but I wouldn't cut it down to just Marth in 60 different costumes.
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ForsakenM
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You misunderstand.
DLC is for the dream picks to happen while base game is for expected characters, with expected essentially meaning expanding on older 1st party titles or adding new 1st party titles. This is what Smash 4 established. Obviously they mix it up a bit, but in general this is the case.
Let's look at the base roster of Smash 4 vs the DLC, shall we?
Base Game:
DLC:
Base game Smash 4 is all expected inclusions outside of Megaman and to an extent Little Mac. AC is very successful and even with Sakurai's previous views on it in Smash it was inevitable, having characters that represent the success of the Wii, adding the last bits of popular Mario characters, a new Pokemon, expanding on the success of Kid Icarus Uprising, Bamco working on the game, expanding on the recent surge of FE success, and a couple of retro picks. Like I said, only Megaman is really out of the ordinary here.
DLC for Smash 4 is a wild ride, with only one really big low. First off, with the exception of Dr. Mario, characters once cut never really seem to return. So when not only does the most requested veteran return, but also two more, it was a huge deal. Mr. Street Fighter himself is a huge deal, especially since people thought Ryu and Megaman were in competition for a spot (think of this like B&K and Steve after B&K got in), Cloud speaks for himself, Corrin was a very bad choice and Bayo was very much loved even if Nintendo did a bad job at explaining why she 'won' the ballot. Still, if you asked people back in the Smash 4 days, all but one of these were thought impossible to some degree and they happened.
Now, let's talk about how Ultimate has failed in this regard. Rather than making dreams come true with DLC, Ultimate has been fixing problems with the base game through DLC.
Who got into the game via base game?
, not counting the veterans since I didn't do that for Smash 4 either. So, let's talk about this. EDIT: I normally don't ahve to point out obvious things, but just to be safe, not counting veterans is in regards to both base games, and Plant was meant to be base game.First off, let's talk about the good here, which really only starts and stops at how big a little over half these requests are. I don't think we really need to talk about that either, as it's been done to death, but let's just cut that corner and say that up to Isabelle was a big deal and after that...not so much. Now, to the bad.
First off for the bad, this is two characters less than Smash 4 in terms of brand new characters in the base game. They pseudo make up for this with six returning vets, but remember that these are all older character with very little changes to them so they don't bring anything new, thus their only significance IS their nostalgia factor. Also, many of these older characters are very similar to others we've had for a while: one third of Pokemon Trainer was in Smash 4, Pichu is basically Pikachu, Young Link was Toon Link before Toon Link, and Wolf pulls very hard from Fox and Falco which was why he got into Brawl in the first place.
Secondly...it's actually less than that in terms of 'new' characters with all the echos. Smash 4 only introduced two echoes, being Dark Pit and Lucina, however Ultimate brought Daisy, Richter, Chrom, Dark Samus and Ken. I know that I personally tend to keep them as their own characters, but in terms of bringing freshness to the game I can't deny that they take so much from their base that it's clear they were done to pad the roster due to time constraints. That would mean that, in fairness, Smash 4 added 12 COMPLETELY new characters while Ultimate only added 8.
In terms of adding new 1st party IPs and expanding the old, Ultimate can only really claim to focus on expansion. Mario got two new reps, Metroid got two, FE got one, DK got one, and Pokemon got one. the only new IP we got was Splatoon with the Inklings. It's very likely we would have gotten ARMS and XBC2 in the base game, but since Ultimate began development so soon and had no chance to delay, we kinda got short changed there. It's also likely that Byleth would have been in the base game if Tres Casas didn't get delayed, but even so if Sakurai got to delay Ultimate for roughly a year, we could have gotten Byleth, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra + Rex in the BASE GAME.
Now, let's look at DLC.
thus far.You would think that with all the veterans returning in the base game, the DLC window would be open for just really big picks, right? Also, with how Smash 4 DLC went and how base Ultimate went, you would think DLC would have catered to big fan requests, right? Well unfortunately, that's only slightly true instead of mostly.
My first point here is that all the DLC falls under some sort of marketing or promotion to benefit both Nintendo and the other company, to capitalize on money one way or another, other than B&K since they don't currently have a way to make big money off of that because MS doesn't like nostalgia money I guess.
That isn't to say that some of these characters didn't have sizable request, but rather that many of these characters had dollar signs as the bigger reason for their inclusion, something that Joker, Hero, Steve and Sephiroth fall into the most because no matter how beloved they are the money companies can make from them just flat out supersedes any demand. In other words, even if these four had little to no demand at all, they would have been here. This is something Sakurai himself has expressed recently with Steve and Kazuya where he has been pressured into including them from what basically boils down to Big Nintendo, which is similar to Corrin's inclusion in Smash 4 but on a larger scale.
So, when you setup a pattern that DLC is what makes dreams happen with only the occasional mishap, but then only one request from that long list makes it into the DLC, you have an issue with that big part of your community.
Then, we have the issue with the 'spackling'. Once we get to Byleth, it's starts to become clear that holes in the base game are being filled, but this could arguably have first began with Hero depending on what you believe from the rumor mill. Basically, from Hero/Byleth on, we have spots that are starting to consistently make up for things that didn't happen in the past, and yet none of them are big time requests from Ye Ol' Smash Community. Now, if you were one of the 5% who thought that ARMS and XBC2 had the perfect chance to show up as DLC, congrats to you, but the majority of this community thought they missed their chance with the timing for the base game and based off Sakurai's words. What that meant to most of us was 'Oh, well I guess they show up for Smash 6 then, because DLC is where the good **** starts to happen' only to then have these characters show up in DLC and push out the chances of that many hopes and dreams coming to fruition.
Hopefully, that explains what I meant a bit better, even if I did go pretty deep into it.
So I think we are flaming Sakurai here without having a non-biased understanding of the time from of releases. This also gives more credit to the rumor from insiders being that Byleth was originally planned for base game, but I'm not here to talk about that as much as time frames.
So, let's look at these time frames: Ultimate started early 2016 and released at the end of 2018. ARMS released in June 2017 and XBC2 in Dec 2017. Tres Casa originally planned to release in 2018, with it's announcement first being Jan 2017. It would then get delayed twice, from 2018 to 2019 and from I believe March 2019 to July 2019.
Now, consider that Sakurai doesn't have an issue working on a character who's game hasn't launched yet but typically the game will be launched before Smash does. This has been made evident by Greninja in Smash 4 as well as Corrin, as well as the pressure put on Sakurai to agree to Corrin despite the game not being released outside of Japan yet.
So, where does this put Min Min, P/M + R and Byleth?
Well, for Min Min and P/M + R, they both came out in 2017. If they missed the mark, that means that Ultimate's roster was already zoned in for the most part by mid 2017, which makes sense since the game was rushing to get out the door by the end of 2018. This means that by the time they could have given a playable build to Sakurai for him to test as thoroughly as he tends to do, they already had a lock on the roster...and remember that Plant was intended for base game but they just ran out of time to put him in, so it's clear production was very rushed.
Byleth has two different timelines here based on whether you believe they were intended for base game or not. The first timeline is that Byleth missed the cut just like the other two, and the game got delayed because it just needed to be to be a good product. The second timeline is that Byleth was being enforced on Sakurai to be included in the base game despite him not really having the time to included them because Big Nintendo is still pushing FE, and that Sakurai wouldn't have done it normally but Nintendo didn't give him a choice, but then the game got delayed to be a better product which meant Sakurai could no longer play the game early to get an accurate portrayal of the game and the character.
If the second timeline is true, then it's likely Tres Casas originally would have released before Ultimate did and Byleth would have been revealed to be in Ultimate before it's release, which honestly is a bit of a better timeline because not only does it still capitalize on the Tres Casas hype shortly after it's release (so just like what actually happened, but a year earlier) but it would have been for base game and been much more accepted by the community instead of as DLC which traditionally grants more big wishes.
Fun fact: did you know that delaying Ultimate until Dec 2019 could have had the same effect? If Sakurai had been allowed to have more time and creative freedom, we could have actually seen Min Min, Byleth and P/M + R in the base game which leaves three open spots in the DLC. More over, who knows how much better WoL could have been, among a number of other additions and improvements.
But remember, Nintendo has been bossing Sakurai around with Smash since essentially it's inception, but it's been pretty bad ever since Brawl. Never forget that N64 Smash originally got rejected but Iwata never told Sakurai about it, that Melee came out in 2001 when Smash 64 was 1999 (imagine that development hell of a rush!), that Sakurai was threatened by Iwata to help make Brawl or they would have to release Melee with netplay for Wii instead, that Sakurai had to make Smash 4 for two different system at essentially the same time that had VASTLY difference capabilities, and that Ultimate started before we even got all the DLC for Smash 4 in early 2016 and he had to push that out in 2018.
So...if you wanna trash someone about Smash, make sure you point your fingers in the right direction, as it's never been Sakurai to blame for anything other than making Brawl so anti-competitive.
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D
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[X] Doubt
The fact that Spring Man was an assist trophy (with a very good model and attacks extremely similar to Min Min) in the base game really seems to suggest that Nintendo/Sakurai saw very little potential in an ARMS fighter to be unique or draw eyes to the game. The base roster was specially formulated to generate as much hype and sell the game as possible, which is why they kicked off with "Everyone is Here!" and continued to throw big requests and popular characters at us until they finally petered out and had to admit that they put Isabelle and Incineroar in. "Ranged Little Mac" more than likely just was not anywhere close to their minds. With another year to work based on what we know, Piranha Plant would have been in the base roster and... that's it? We have rumors of Hero being part of the base game (I don't know if that comes from anyone more reliable than Vergeben [lmao]), but I seriously doubt Square Enix would smile about missing out on whatever cut they get out of DLC sales.
I'll be generous and say that Byleth would have been base roster at that point because of how Fire Emblem gets treated, assuming that Byleth is not a quick and dirty Monster Hunter replacement. Because I think the only reason we have Pythra now is that people got salty about the statement regarding Rex, I really doubt we would have gotten any non-DLC XC2 fighter.
We can be relatively certain that the whole of Fighter Pass 1 was planned during development of Ultimate, and planned as DLC. Isn't that something you've argued in the past? None of those characters were going to make it into the base roster - the DLC is not meant to be the things they forgot to add or didn't have time to add, it's extra content that wouldn't exist otherwise.
Firox
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To say that Sakurai isn't to blame for anything but the anti-comp nature of Brawl is being a bit too generous. The point in my previous post was the fact that Sakurai isn't always forthcoming with his information which has been proven more than once. That isn't to say that Nintendo isn't the culprit in a lot of the shenanigans that have gone on, but there have been other missteps that have totally been his fault and massive blunders at that. The best example of this is the design of online play. In Smash 4, you could create lobbies with your friends where multiple people could play locally with another group of people that are playing locally. Rule changing was easy and you didn't have to deal with the "kick and wait" format of these loathsome arenas. Another issue would be the insanely repetitive and monotonous nature of World of Light and how poorly it tries to recreate a cross-over world similar to Subspace emissary. That's not to say that Ultimate isn't a great game or that Sakurai hasn't done good work overall, but to claim that he's virtually flawless as a dev and never shies from the truth to cover his butt is just a little too much.
As for the timing issue with XC2, I'm also wondering about the logic of preemptive inclusion. We know from Greninja and Byleth, that he can implement characters before they've even been released. True, Ultimate was already well into development by the time XC2 came out, but then there still could have been the argument as to why it too didn't get the preemptive treatment. Granted, there's a lot we honestly don't know about the development decisions at the time and a lot of our reasoning is based on conjecture, but it still seems suspicious when you consider that Byleth came BEFORE Min Min and Pythra even though XC2 came BEFORE Three Houses. See how the chronology still doesn't quite line up? It makes Pythra look more like an afterthought (say, from non-Rex backlash) and Byleth as an obvious Nintendo priority.
GalacticPetey
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I think the whole timing issues stems from a lack of clarity. Characters from XB2, Arms, and Three Houses were indeed too new FOR THE BASE GAME. Once DLC started that was no longer an issue. We know Nintendo selected the characters so it's most likely they wanted a newer character for the first fighter's pass and they prioritized FE either because it was newest or that's the one Nintendo had the most faith in. And IIRC, Three Houses has outsold XB2 and Arms.
When FP2 rolled around, Nintendo had the wiggle room to go back and focus on slightly older games, giving us XB2 and Arms. This seems much more plausible than some conspiracy theory about Sakurai being biased.
When FP2 rolled around, Nintendo had the wiggle room to go back and focus on slightly older games, giving us XB2 and Arms. This seems much more plausible than some conspiracy theory about Sakurai being biased.
Icewolff92
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The reason why people (myself included) don´t trust that claim is simply because of one major reason. Cloud Strife.
Firox
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I'm not sure who is throwing around conspiracy theories about Sakurai bias, but I definitely agree that the main issue is a lack of clarity, both in the actual decision making process and the rhetoric by which it was conveyed. XC2 came out in 2017. Three Houses came out in 2019. The Smash DLC FP#1 was seemingly decided during or immediately following Ultimate's release in 2018. The fact that a future release of FE prioritized the previously existing release of XC2 simply shows Nintendo's obvious bias for the FE franchise. Logically, it makes sense due to the profitable nature of FE and the fact that, by extension, a greater general fanbase could be appeased. At the same time, it cements the idea that Nintendo gave very little regard to the Smash fanbase in particular when it came to DLC and went almost exclusively with the tactic of trying to reach outside fanbases. For crying out loud, they even referenced the "too many swordmen" complaint IN THE REVEAL TRAILER as if another FE character wasn't a big enough middle finger to the Smash community. Again, logically, it makes a lot of sense, but as someone that wanted the likes of Geno, Isaac, Knuckles, any other Megaman character, or a Zelda character that isn't a variation of Link, Zelda or Ganondorf, I feel kinda shafted.
(DISCLAIMER: There are still some DLC characters that I'm super hyped for, especially Sephiroth, but it still sucks knowing that the DLC wasn't really aimed in my direction. Not that it had to be, just wish I'd gotten at least one thing I was hoping for.)
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D
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It's such a weird claim for them to make. They had just made the ballot live like, what, a month or two beforehand? The Japanese ballot was even worded in such a way that it made the distinction that the ballot wasn't necessarily for Smash 4, and yet in all languages they claimed that Bayonetta was the number 1 "realizable" character (whatever the hell that means) of a couple month old ballot and as such was added to the game in even less time than that. They didn't even have to make the ballot be a part of it, but they willingly chose to incorporate it into the presentation.
They just make some of the most incredibly dumb decisions when it comes to how they present Smash information, why be surprised when people call them liars?
It still breaks my mind that they secured the rights to use Zero and they stuck him into an assist trophy. I can't even articulate how much it confuses me.
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S1itchey
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Yeah I feel this exact way. I didn't get anything I wanted with this pass and it's pretty much been nothing but disappointment. I don't need the entire pass to be stuff that appeals to me but I at least would have liked one thing. The first at least gave me banjo so I at least got something to be happy with. I would have been completely fine with this pass if we would have gotten geno over sephiroth and maybe another kirby or Zelda character over min min or Pythra. Just anything to at least feel somewhat content with the dlc.
It still blows my mind that they had the audacity to reveal Knuckles as an assist trophy so early on with no signs of shadow, introduce the concept of echo fighters and then make shadow an assist trophy again anyway. Like why? The fact that sonic is still the only sonic character in Smash after 13 years is genuinely ridiculous.
Firox
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Oh my gosh, this. First, they rip my hopes to shreds with Knuckles, then delay the following upper cut just long enough for me to think Shadow had a chance. It's annoying as hell to watch anything and everything I wish for getting systematically blown to pieces one after another. Waiting almost two years for Geno to finally get the shaft was an epically crap way to surrender what was left of my expectations. I really don't give a rat's tail what comes next. The chances of it being even remotely hype for me are slim at best, and that's considering a decent range of perfectly viable picks. Geno was probably the most obscure character on my want list.
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Cloud would've been chosen before the ballot as well. Nor did they say he wasn't top 5. All Sakurai said is that he's popular, but he didn't note who the most popular FF character was either. Cloud is just iconic, which is a different thing.
That's not a good defense because there's nothing that legit proves it matters. Bayonetta being number 1 in the UK? Yeah, that makes sense. She's massive there as a character due to not just being a European-based character, but because she's a very mature take on sexuality(that is, she's proud of who she is and doesn't hide herself). She's massively popular among women for being a very strong take on a female character. Nintendo also promoting her definitely helps put her in the spotlight too(they even promoted her in Playboy, after all).
She's top 5 in the US. Again, completely believable too. Other than not being from the US as a character, she fits the rest. Her game itself just isn't on a high iconic level, but she's not exactly an unknown either. It's still a pretty known series among gamers, the ones voting. If other characters weren't realizable, there's actual reasons. Inkling was a no-go for 3DS. Isabelle would've required them to have a good idea of how to make her work well(and Ultimate was the first time they clearly had a proper idea). King K. Rool is a completely unique character, so no base has issues(Bayonetta used Zero Suit Samus as a base, meaning she was more realizable among them). Not sure who the last one could be among that, though. But that's already 4 pretty clear characters who likely scored super high along with Bayonetta. I can't imagine Geno legitimately hitting top 5. Ridley didn't get a costume either, but probably was one of them, and we knew he wasn't feasible. That or Banjo & Kazooie. Isabelle probably was already thought of and didn't need any votes to know she was popular, so she might've not been the top 5 either. One of those "well, duh, she'll be in. Why vote for the inevitable?" Not that she didn't have votes, but it wasn't required to get her in, so. Inkling could also apply to that, maybe. We'll never know, of course. So... when you consider Cloud had no real chance to be top 5 overall, you have to look at other clear contenders. Being we got more than 5 characters due to the ballot, it's decently easy to figure out who the top 5 were. 3 became costumes, 1 couldn't happen, and one was already going to be playable anyway. I see nothing to actually legitimately disprove the claim, and no, I don't consider Cloud a legit counterpoint overall.
Never mind it doesn't change they never said she was chosen due to the ballot, so no, I don't believe Cloud has any effect on it. This is also when remembering Cloud probably had a pretty crappy amount of votes compared to what an icon like him should have due to having zero Nintendo appearances(which isn't so much true as what most fans think due to a lack of knowledge). He's actually pretty unlikely to hit the top 5, realistically. You'd be more likely to see someone like Terra, Black Mage, or just the Onion Knight among Final Fantasy characters. Or even Chocobo or Moogle. Cloud was known to be popular in general, nothing to do with the ballot. Pretty much nobody in Smash 4 had ballot influence outside of... the later Mii costumes at best, if that. It would've taken too long to get Cloud, and even then, Sakurai already knew he was uber popular. Why would the ballot have made a difference? I call bull on Cloud mattering in any possible way here.
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Just wondering,
Verde Coeden Scalesworth
, was Cloud even a ballot character? I remember people saying he was not, so if not, I can see why he would not affect things if I have things down right.
Verde Coeden Scalesworth
, was Cloud even a ballot character? I remember people saying he was not, so if not, I can see why he would not affect things if I have things down right.
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Honestly? Nothing suggests it to be the case.Just wondering,
Sakurai wanted a character to represent Final Fantasy in general(ironically, he only represents VII), and he's the most iconic choice. While barely relating to Nintendo, which wasn't on his mind. To the point he had no idea of what he'd have done if he didn't even have a Nintendo appearance(most likely? Smash would be Cloud's Nintendo debut).
A lot were expecting ones like Terra or other Nintendo-associated ones. That's why he was so unexpected and such a huge deal. The general fanbase weren't about Cloud, but boy were they happy. It makes sense why he couldn't have been top 5. There's no real reason to believe it. And that'd only be in US even as a concept. Even with Nintendo not being clear enough on why Bayonetta was chosen, they were clear who was ballot-related, with only two characters implied at best(Dark Samus and Richter), and two pretty easy guesses(Banjo-Kazooie and Daisy).
D
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I would love for you to explain what ballot they used that was not the ballot to determine Bayonetta is the Number 1 fighter worldwide. I mean, it's undeniable: in this presentation they said that Bayonetta was the #1 realizable character, going as far as to even say that she beat out returning fighters.
If they didn't lie, what did they do?
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That tells me she did well on the ballot.
Still doesn't say "chosen due to it" either. So no, doesn't change a thing I said.
She was already realizable and was worked on two weeks after the ballot started, too early to gain a real lead. Even if the Ballot having a small lead made them actually work on her instead of proof of concept, that doesn't remotely mean they lied either. She was pretty clearly already in the game to begin with and had work done. That means she was already considered, without the ballot factor.
It's literally just a coincidence. They poorly worded it to make it sound like it was a ballot influence. If it was, they didn't lie. If it wasn't, they still didn't lie.
They never lied at any point. Realizable does not mean "only option". It means "they were the most possible due to any circumstance that made it that way." There is no way to know why she was realizable. Doesn't mean it is a lie in any way.
So as I said, nope, not lying one bit. Just badly worded and people mistook the meaning behind it. It's not the first time Nintendo or even Sakurai(especially the translation) has been really bad and misleading. There's a difference between a lie and poor wording. It's always been poor wording.
"Most realizable among the ballot options" just means a circumstance came up that made her the most workable. Which... she was already considered before the ballot started, exactly a circumstance that made her the most realizable. Even Wolf, who is one of the easiest semi-clones to make, didn't come back. And he didn't lack popularity. He had a pretty big outcry. Why he didn't? Probably cause Star Fox Zero kept getting delays, so his franchise was not doing well enough to justify. Lucas was the most popular Brawl vet, Roy the most popular Melee vet, and Mewtwo the most popular vet. So they all check out. A lot of vets didn't have the best of chances. 3rd party, Pichu wasn't uber popular(though still popular) enough to be good sellable DLC. Sakurai was choosing everyone but Corrin directly, so Stage Bosses and AT's were most likely out. I already explained some like Inkling being obviously way too much for the 3DS to handle to have any proper gameplay mechanic. The big popular choices just weren't very viable in general. And almost all of them had a major Nintendo showing(so that means Cloud sticks out, but then again, he wasn't chosen for ballot reasons, so. But Bayonetta doesn't appear to have been ballot influenced either, just happened to do well... which is pretty much all they actually said either way).
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Just want to say, Wyvy, the ballot was not the only reason she, Bayonetta, got in. She was also easier to make based off Zero Suit Samus if I recall, compared to K. Rool and others, who needed their models made from the ground up.
Still, to me, Bayonetta was a surprise to see get revealed back then, even with how well she may have done.
Still, to me, Bayonetta was a surprise to see get revealed back then, even with how well she may have done.
D
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You must be a hit with politicians. How many repeated instances of "poor wording" does it take to admit you're being lied to? Just to be sure you understand where I'm coming from: I'm not concerned about "realizable", I'm hung up on the fact that it was presented as if the ballot that had virtually just begun had any influence, but the reality of the situation was that they had recently bankrolled Bayonetta 2, had a Wii U exclusive gritty, edgy "adult" game and they were gonna put her into Smash. There was no reason to drag the ballot into the equation, they just did. It comes off as a poor attempt to validate the inclusion when they have felt no need to validate any other inclusion ever.
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I already talked about that. That's what I mean by "part of what makes her realizable". Being she pretty clearly had to have work done before the ballot started, that already means she was considered for playable by the Smash Team alone. So it's not just that she was easier to make, but that they already did so.
Realizable is pretty much a very simple term in that regard. It's really taken out of context at times. Anything at all could make a character realizable. A simple idea for a gameplay mechanic does it. Easier licensing. Proof of concept existing beforehand(as the case with Bayonetta), etc.
Whether the ballot helped seal the deal or not doesn't really mean much of anything. Nintendo didn't lie at any point, they just worded it in a way that's very easy to misunderstand. So it's a poor wording and I can't blame anyone for misunderstanding that.
Congrats. Since you're keen on attacking my person, I'm not going to entertain a thing you've said anymore. I find them ten times more believable than any argument that requires one to attack someone's person. You aren't proving anything whatsoever. Good day.
I did not say it was a lie. In fact, I believe you. Translations and all.
But I do find that they already had her made to be not doubtful, but interesting...
S1itchey
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This all the way. When geno was first revealed as a spirit in base game I accepted that it was probably all he was getting. But then hero came along and didn't bring back genos costume which was a huge red flag. We also got banjo which means that yes they were actually listening to the long time fans of the melee and brawl days. Then min min came along and completely squashed the spirits can't be characters debate (which was stupid AF to begin with) meaning that genos spirit means nothing. All that just to get sephiroth after 2 years of painfully waiting for geno to come to smash. I checked out of caring about smash after that (also because of the internet clowning us when his costume came back and all the nonsense that happened with the community). It doesn't matter who they reveal next because even on the very slim chance it's a character that I really want it still doesn't make up for how bad the dlc ride has been since byleth.
The only character I want that I can realistically see getting in this pass is eggman but let's be real his ass isn't getting in.
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Yeah. My oldest theory was that she was at first an AT using ZSS as a base to make her body data work. But I wasn't aware of how Proof of Concept works at the time. Another user brought that up, and that's pretty much the only way she could've been a ballot character too.
Firox
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I've always found it suspect that Nintendo claimed that Bayonetta was the #1 most popular pick on the ballot in Europe and top 5 in the US yet I don't recall her being anywhere near the top 10 in any of the fan-generated polls online regardless of sample size. Granted, there could be an unexpected discrepancy due to multi-voting and such, but I honestly don't remember her fan following being significant in any way among the smash fanbase. Banjo, Ridley, Krool, Isaac, Snake, Wolf and Geno were consistently bouncing around top 10, if not top 5 in all the polls I ever looked at. This seems consistent with what the actual ballot probably got since all but Isaac and Geno are now playable fighters. Personally, I'd bet money that Nintendo was already eyeing Bayo for political reasons (Bayo 3 and the ease of rights requisition) and they just used the ballot as an excuse to make the fanbase think they had something to do with it. We'll probably never know for sure, but the whole "realizable fighter" qualifier is a total BS term. We're talking about a guy (Sakurai) that can make a playable fighter out of the Duck Hunt game and a potted plant. He could make virtually anything "realizable" if he wanted to. If anything, "realizable" sounds more like a licensing limitation.
Or maybe it was possible to port her model from Bayonetta 2 to Smash, assuming that is possible, which I have my doubts.
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There's way too many votes unaccounted for that you need far more data to prove that as conclusive enough to actually prove anything. It's okay information, but definitely not enough to prove they remotely lied. I'm not going to constantly explain how "being realizable among these options" is a separate thing from "also being chosen due to that". They can be exclusive. The problem is Nintendo wording it wrong to make it sound like they were related. The evidence suggests quite the opposite regardless. Now, the idea that they intentionally created a white lie? I'm not saying it's impossible. But there's no legitimate evidence to prove that either way.
Even then, the body data from ZSS was more about how the body moved, not just the model alone, if I remember right. So it's more than "model". There's stuff like frame data, etc.
Even if it wasn't a lie, I don't think it was intentional, at all. I know companies do lie sometimes, but I am not sure if Nintendo would make a lie about something like this at all. At least, not intentionally.
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Same. I'd go with "bad translators at work", but until we can see the Japanese wording and it re-translated, well. Can't confirm that. XD
D
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I've always parsed "realizable" as "not ****ing Goku", because you just know when you open up a ballot to the general internet and have no way of enforcing one vote per person, you're going to get a billion votes for every anime character under the sun. I'd put money on the idea that if it were up to the average internet user, Smash would look like MUGEN in the worst possible way.
Honestly, though, it feels slightly like I'm guilty of double think to assume that on this completely fabricated set of ballot results used as nothing more than a CYA "we definitely didn't pick Bayonetta because we're funding the franchise now" and then at the true top of that fabricated result is Goku. Trying to figure out why they bothered bringing the ballot up makes me feel like a lunatic. It's beyond obvious that the ballot affected no aspect of Smash 4, and the proof's in writing that it did affect Ultimate's picks.
Fortunately, we can. We're lucky that in this particular instance, they didn't just translate what Sakurai was saying, they translated words that were on the screen.
欧州 "Europe" 1 位 "Rank" - "1st Rank in Europe"
北米 "North America" 5 位 "Rank" 以内 "Within" - "Within 5 Rank in North America"
Firox
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Regardless, I find it painfully adorable that there are actually people in this world that think a corporation wouldn't possibly lie through its teeth for the sake of a good public image and a juicy bottom line. While I'm certainly not accusing Nintendo of being some evil, pathologically lying super-corporation, let's not pretend like they honestly give two ****s about anything but the contents of your wallet. The fact that they'll never release the actual statistics of the ballot goes to show just how "transparent" they are. If a character gets in, "Oh look! You asked and we answered! Look how benevolent we are!" If a character doesn't, "guess they just weren't realizable enough. Better luck with the next $60+ game...".
ForsakenM
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I blame everything you just said about game issues on a rushed product, other than the Byleth stuff. I think you don't know how much say a company can have over someone's creation, for better or worse, but let me lay this out for you.
Ultimate had about as much time as Melee did to be in the oven. Smash 64 was Jan 1999, Melee Nov 2001. Smash 4 DLC ended in Feb 2016, Ultimate dropped in Dec 2018.
Ultimate borrows a ton of assets from Smash 4 because it had to so it could make it in time. Ultimate only had four brand new stages, the rest being updates or ports of previous stages. Most of the music is ported over. All the rest of the veterans were ported over with no drastic changes to them. Between Daisy, Richter, Chrom, Dark Samus, Ken and the six returning veterans, we have eleven characters added to the roster that we have played as in some way or form, something other Smash games are much less guilty of other than...you guessed it, Melee. That gives us only seven brand new characters, which is incredibly lacking in comparison to previous Smash titles, and one of them didn't even make it in time and had to be downloaded later. Only one of these is from a new 1st party IP, which is very lacking in comparison to previous Smash titles.
There are other things I could bring up too, like how we got Home Run Contest in a PATCH rather than in the base game, or how K. Rool only loads half his model at any given time, or how WoL is nothing but a glorified event mode. It's just clear that many of the things wrong with this game is because Sakurai wasn't allowed to delay it to make it more polished and he tried to do the most with what he had. Now, could SOME of the decisions just been mistakes and bad decisions by Sakurai? Yes, it very well could have, but he's very dedicated and been at this for a long time. It stands to reason that corners had to be cut, so perhaps a less efficient system for online had to be made due to lack of time to make an improved version of the previous one work. Or maybe Nintendo told them to make changes that turned out to be negative.
Also, another fun fact: building a new engine is never easy, and Ultimate did that. Rumor is that Melee used Mario Sunshine's engine and Brawl and Smash 4 used Brawl's engine. So, having roughly the same dev time as Melee, but having to make a brand-new engine? That's wild bruh. It's almost like this game was incredibly rushed, but since Sakurai is dedicated and has worked with a team to make something good out of very little with basically every Smash title to date it came out pretty good, but honestly Ultimate should be nothing more than a 6/10 because it doesn't offer enough. Hell, even Melee had Classic, even modes and an adventure mode that felt like more effort went into them and actually had multiple game modes in the base game, where as Ultiamte is missing many. Like I said, we were all just blinded by the returning vets and the hype base game picks that we didn't see the clear signs that this game needed more time even when they were right in our faces.
Also, showing the results of the poll would be difficult. Imagine if they just broadcast all of that. First off, I'm sure there is a level of red tape involved as to why they couldn't show it, but also if they showed off the raw data you would have seen a lot of stupid meme picks from stupid people not taking it seriously. I always figured when Bayonetta was called '#1" and 'in the top 5" for "realizable characters", I knew that weeded out all the meme picks and that placed her higher, but it's also possible that they weeded out other characters like K. Rool because it wasn't possible to do them at the time or they wanted to save them for Ultimate which started happening before Cloud even got in our hands. Thus, Bayo was picked earlier on in the ballot so that they could actually make at least one character from it, which could easily affect the result when you use early data among only characters you can actually make.
Oh, and don't mind me or the reaction to me in the Newcomer thread: I simply made a clickbait-esq post there about how I've come to realize that Ultimate isn't even that amazing when you separate bias, and apparently that caused them to go at me.
Vector Victor
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And yet, despite winning the ballot, they then proceed to do anything further with her in Ultimate, not even more songs.
And with introducing the concept of echoes in Ultimate and Bayonetta's insanely simple to already echo character confirmed even in her own game, they didn't make Jeanne an echo. You would think that seeing a character win the support of fans that they would capitalize on that for next game. But nope, here's just a new AT for her series.
And with introducing the concept of echoes in Ultimate and Bayonetta's insanely simple to already echo character confirmed even in her own game, they didn't make Jeanne an echo. You would think that seeing a character win the support of fans that they would capitalize on that for next game. But nope, here's just a new AT for her series.