Geno's Bizarre Adventure part 2: Stardust Crusaders (Geno Support Thread #2)

[Urso_Ornitier]

More characters will be added, more faces will join!

 

[Dan]

More characters will be added, more faces will join!

On the subject of that, does anyone else feel like the DLC should be over by now? It's hard to believe there's still more characters coming. I'd be surprised if both aren't revealed at E3; that seems like a certainty at this point.

 

[Icewolff92]

On the subject of that, does anyone else feel like the DLC should be over by now? It's hard to believe there's still more characters coming. I'd be surprised if both aren't revealed at E3; that seems like a certainty at this point.

While I would not say its impossible for more,. I do think the upcoming two is the last two

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

On the subject of that, does anyone else feel like the DLC should be over by now? It's hard to believe there's still more characters coming. I'd be surprised if both aren't revealed at E3; that seems like a certainty at this point.

I’m currently on the optimistic/hoping belief of 2 at E3 and a Bonus (or maybe 1 before, then 1 at E3 with a bonus)

Realistically (for my sanity), 2 at E3.

If the virus didn’t happen, I would believe they would be released by now.

 

[Dan]

My money is on Smash newcomers opening and closing E3, with the announcement of this presumed bonus fighter at the end. I hated most of the DLC anyway so I don't even care if the bonus fighter happens, but it seems like something that would.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

saw this meme on 4chan

A classic.

 

[S1itchey]

My money is on Smash newcomers opening and closing E3, with the announcement of this presumed bonus fighter at the end. I hated most of the DLC anyway so I don't even care if the bonus fighter happens, but it seems like something that would.

I also hated every character in this pass aside from steve and that's why I'm not even going to bother watching the reveals for E3. It's also why even if we get a bonus fighter I have no faith in it being a character I actually like.

 

[Icewolff92]

I also hated every character in this pass aside from steve and that's why I'm not even going to bother watching the reveals for E3. It's also why even if we get a bonus fighter I have no faith in it being a character I actually like.

Am I the only one that doesn't really mind any inclusion unless it's the likes of (as the fans call it) 4th party characters? Sure, I have some preferences (Geno being one of them) but this is a videogame, not some life important UN discussion

 

[Geno Boost]

The characters that brought most excitement to me in order in this pass was Steve then Pyra/Mythra (but only because it was a double character) then Min min and lastly Sephiroth
I played ARMS and Minecraft but ARMS was not fun I dropped it in less than a week when I bought it the game did feel lacking many things compare it to Tekken which is way better.
Minecraft is something free and spend a lot of time playing it and enjoyed it.
I know Nintendo is trying to push the hype for ARMS by including Min min in smash but honestly there were many better choices for adding another Nintendo rep cough golden sun cough
As for Sephiroth well he stabbed Geno and Black mage to death and still only FF7 content

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The characters that brought most excitement to me in order in this pass was Steve then Pyra/Mythra (but only because it was a double character) then Min min and lastly Sephiroth
I played ARMS and Minecraft but ARMS was not fun I dropped it in less than a week when I bought it while Minecraft is something free and spend a lot of time playing it.
I know Nintendo is trying to push the hype for ARMS by including Min min in smash but honestly there were many better choices for adding another Nintendo rep cough golden sun cough

Actually, that's not why Min Min was added. The creator of ARMS requested her to Nintendo, and they said yes. Sakurai liked the idea and made the character. They used the timing to help promote ARMS in general to gather interest again, since it's a unique fighting game. Hence the free demo(for a while) later on and the whole guessing game.

It wouldn't have happened without the creator's request, so Nintendo didn't add her to "promote" stuff in that way. It's more like her request gave them an excuse to promote stuff. There's also no ARMS 2 coming, and they haven't done DLC for ARMS again, so it's clear the promotional factors weren't that effective. It was a cool idea with the guessing game and all, but it didn't work, so.

They'd need to have an actual semi-active Golden Sun project to even think about Isaac, and we clearly know that is not happening any time soon. Mario Golf was the game in the works by Camelot. So why choose a dormant series they can't do much with? They have control of the series now, and they currently have it set as dormant(like F-Zero is). Thus, they didn't want to bring up that character option. Basically, they're in completely different situations. The only kind of character that could've been there instead of Min Min would have to be from a recent series and requested by the creator. Otherwise, it wouldn't come close to something that could happen.

I'm going nip any suggestions about Banjo-Kazooie in the bud too before it gets easily brought up as a counterpoint; it's a product in Rare Replay, which is fully active overall. Phil Spencer already noted it while the ballot was running. Nintendo already worked with Microsoft for Minecraft, which led to it. They already went out of their way to make even more merchandise(which is an important part of projects, so they did somewhat make BK relevant in a way again due to Smash). And you know, massive fan demand. If RR didn't exist, meaning BK wasn't active, we may not have even gotten the characters. It's not a coincidence Sakurai outright promoted "Play on Xbox". It's cause the product was active for the companies, and may even have been part of the overall deal to get them in, if not fairly obvious. You don't see him promoting the other games that are only on non-Nintendo systems either. That's a big stand-out.

Don't get me wrong, I want Isaac in too, but he was in a poor position. Maybe he could still be coming. Golden Sun might have a new game coming soon as is. But at the time of Min Min, there was no GS game coming, so how could he be chosen in that spot? Nintendo plans these things out as is. As they do with 3rd party companies(It's not a coincidence that Steve/Alex was revealed near the latest Minecon. After various gameplay-related delays, Microsoft and them chose a better time for the reveal to make sure it works promotionally to some degree. Generally many reveals are done in a way that helps push product. Not chosen as a character to promote, but when they reveal is a very important thing. For instance, Isabelle wasn't chosen to promote New Horizons. She's not even as important as Tom Nook, who is the core NPC of that game. But she was revealed at the perfect time to help promote the latest AC game cause she was the mascot at the time. It was logical. Simply put, timing of reveals has no correlation to why a character is chosen).

 

[MattX20]

Actually, that's not why Min Min was added. The creator of ARMS requested her to Nintendo, and they said yes. Sakurai liked the idea and made the character. They used the timing to help promote ARMS in general to gather interest again, since it's a unique fighting game. Hence the free demo(for a while) later on and the whole guessing game.

It wouldn't have happened without the creator's request, so Nintendo didn't add her to "promote" stuff in that way. It's more like her request gave them an excuse to promote stuff. There's also no ARMS 2 coming, and they haven't done DLC for ARMS again, so it's clear the promotional factors weren't that effective. It was a cool idea with the guessing game and all, but it didn't work, so.

They'd need to have an actual semi-active Golden Sun project to even think about Isaac, and we clearly know that is not happening any time soon. Mario Golf was the game in the works by Camelot. So why choose a dormant series they can't do much with? They have control of the series now, and they currently have it set as dormant(like F-Zero is). Thus, they didn't want to bring up that character option. Basically, they're in completely different situations. The only kind of character that could've been there instead of Min Min would have to be from a recent series and requested by the creator. Otherwise, it wouldn't come close to something that could happen.

I'm going nip any suggestions about Banjo-Kazooie in the bud too before it gets easily brought up as a counterpoint; it's a product in Rare Replay, which is fully active overall. Phil Spencer already noted it while the ballot was running. Nintendo already worked with Microsoft for Minecraft, which led to it. They already went out of their way to make even more merchandise(which is an important part of projects, so they did somewhat make BK relevant in a way again due to Smash). And you know, massive fan demand. If RR didn't exist, meaning BK wasn't active, we may not have even gotten the characters. It's not a coincidence Sakurai outright promoted "Play on Xbox". It's cause the product was active for the companies, and may even have been part of the overall deal to get them in, if not fairly obvious. You don't see him promoting the other games that are only on non-Nintendo systems either. That's a big stand-out.

Don't get me wrong, I want Isaac in too, but he was in a poor position. Maybe he could still be coming. Golden Sun might have a new game coming soon as is. But at the time of Min Min, there was no GS game coming, so how could he be chosen in that spot? Nintendo plans these things out as is. As they do with 3rd party companies(It's not a coincidence that Steve/Alex was revealed near the latest Minecon. After various gameplay-related delays, Microsoft and them chose a better time for the reveal to make sure it works promotionally to some degree. Generally many reveals are done in a way that helps push product. Not chosen as a character to promote, but when they reveal is a very important thing. For instance, Isabelle wasn't chosen to promote New Horizons. She's not even as important as Tom Nook, who is the core NPC of that game. But she was revealed at the perfect time to help promote the latest AC game cause she was the mascot at the time. It was logical. Simply put, timing of reveals has no correlation to why a character is chosen).

The whole thing about characters being active is why I'm looking at Ayumi Tachibana as a potential character choice from Nintendo of Japan's marketing team. Famicom Detective Club's a fairly popular series of games in Japan, The Girl Who Stands Behind especially and might be a last minute addition to the roster

 

[S1itchey]

The whole thing about characters being active is why I'm looking at Ayumi Tachibana as a potential character choice from Nintendo of Japan's marketing team. Famicom Detective Club's a fairly popular series of games in Japan, The Girl Who Stands Behind especially and might be a last minute addition to the roster

Not going to lie I kind of hope this doesn't happen. I know alot of people including sakurai himself would like to see her in smash but honestly I really dont care about this character or her series and with how bad this second pass has been she would just be the cherry on top of the disappointment sunday.

The characters that brought most excitement to me in order in this pass was Steve then Pyra/Mythra (but only because it was a double character) then Min min and lastly Sephiroth
I played ARMS and Minecraft but ARMS was not fun I dropped it in less than a week when I bought it the game did feel lacking many things compare it to Tekken which is way better.
Minecraft is something free and spend a lot of time playing it and enjoyed it.
I know Nintendo is trying to push the hype for ARMS by including Min min in smash but honestly there were many better choices for adding another Nintendo rep cough golden sun cough
As for Sephiroth well he stapped Geno and Black mage to death and still only FF7 content

This is pretty much how I feel. Steve is the only one that got me somewhat excited. Min min and pyra/mythra were crap. Just lame predictable first party characters. Doesn't help that arms is terrible and that pyra came right after sephiroth who is my least favourite dlc character so far next to byleth.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The whole thing about characters being active is why I'm looking at Ayumi Tachibana as a potential character choice from Nintendo of Japan's marketing team. Famicom Detective Club's a fairly popular series of games in Japan, The Girl Who Stands Behind especially and might be a last minute addition to the roster

That's fair.

Though yeah, as I said, BK had a lot of reasons why the franchise got in. Being "technically" active is part of it, but there was clearly more. You don't need to be an active character(King K. Rool), though it's possible the franchise has to have some activity to matter, even if it's basically "on life support". Retro picks are clearly an exception to this, otherwise R.O.B. wouldn't get in. And so on.

She'd be pretty cool, though I admit she's not exactly one I care about. But there's a lot of neat considered characters. If I can get my roster maker thing to work, I might just go do that, having a full roster based upon everyone confirmed as considered(so ones like James Bond count, but I wouldn't count Goku, Iron Man, or Spongebob).

 

[ForsakenM]

Okay, but my whole post was a response to you saying "Geno getting into Smash, and reminding people why it's happening." Anyone who thinks Geno is still getting in at this point has a "very weird mindset". Yes, anything can happen, but it's delusional. You didn't even provide any reasons he's gonna get in.

I will gladly eat my words; I am a supporter, but also a realist.

No, you are not a realist. A realist, as I mentioned in the general thread, is someone who analyzes all the information given to them and comes to the most likely to be conclusion (thus, the 'real' conclusion) and doesn't let their bias stray them from what is likely to happen. You have confused pessimist with realist, like many MANY people in recent generations because people have moved to this mindset where 'the worst IS the most likely to happen' when that just flat out isn't the case.

Acting as if Geno has no chance over a simple reused asset getting a touch-up and returning isn't being a realist, it's being a pessimist and using something that bears no real weight as an excuse to confirm your doubts. Meanwhile, we have so many things in Geno's favor that it's kinda ridiculous, and somehow everyone has thrown it all away over a dead deconfirmation theory that died alongside Spirits Deconfirm but we just didn't see it at the time.

Also, your clear bias is open for display with the fact that you don't care if we get more characters because the characters we got thus far didn't appeal to you out of the 20+ million who have purchased Ultimate. I'm not sure who you even truly want, but realize that the world of video game characters is massive and not every one of them (nor most of them really) can appeal to you, especially if you limit your horizons on what games you play, what consoles you play on, and how niche your taste is. I accept that with Geno being the only character I really want out of the millions of video game characters out there, most of them won't tickle my fancy, but are dope in their own way. This is just more proof that you are in fact a pessimist and not a realist

I’m currently on the optimistic/hoping belief of 2 at E3 and a Bonus (or maybe 1 before, then 1 at E3 with a bonus)

Realistically (for my sanity), 2 at E3.

If the virus didn’t happen, I would believe they would be released by now.

See, you aren't wrong, but you are looking at it in kinda the wrong way.

See, the virus isn't really affecting production anymore as both restrictions have been lifted in the proper areas and even before then Sakurai and his team finally adapted to their new environment. However, we have solid evidence that it delayed an entire character's reveal and release.

As we know, the world kinda slowed to a halt for a bit, and Nintendo was no exception. Even now we are still seeing remnants of what should have been announced or even released last year, like the new Mario Golf coming out AFTER the Mario 35th celebration. For reference on how massive these delays have been, remember that it was revealed that the rather small Mario Maker 2 event for Mario 35th was actually slated for April, but we got it in November, which is a seven month delay (there's that number again...).

So with that said, think about how each Smash character has come out within a window of new Amiibo releases. If you remember, in 2020, we originally had Amiibo dates for April, July, October and December. Steve came out in October, Sephy in December, but what about April and July? Well, all signs point to Min Min originally being an April release, but a wombo combo of programming demand and COVID restrictions pushed her back to June. Had this not happened, the likelihood that she would have been announced in March instead of 'Mystery ARMS Rep' and dropped the next month is incredibly high. Now look at July, and let's compare 2020 to 2019.

In 2019, we got two characters revealed at E3 in June, with one dropping in July and the other in September.

In 2020, E3 was canned, and yet Steve was 'on time' in October, which even with Min Min in June leaves this weird gap which feels like we should have gotten another character. If you factor in her being an April release, that's an even bigger gap. We also had an Amiibo release for July, and if Min Min actually dropped in April that would have been the perfect timing for another character...almost so perfect it's like that was the original plan...

That means that whoever was originally planned for E3 was alongside Steve and just hasn't been revealed for whatever reason that could be. This makes it likely we will have a double reveal this E3.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth First off, I support your Brian support. I wish that game became a bigger series than it seems to.

After that, I have to disagree with Min Min and BK. BK wasn't active in anyway and the only thing keeping it alive was the fan demand constantly pressuring and reaching out on social media. That would be like me saying that Megaman was still active as a franchise when all they were doing was collections of old games and no new ones when that was what everyone wanted. You can look at it however you choose, but I think implying BK was an active franchise is extremely disingenuous when the most recent stuff we got before Ultimate were old games in a collection, a statue in Sea of Thieves, and being chosen for a racing game and the last actual game in the series was in 2008 and was a flop.

I love SMRPG, but I don't go around saying it's an active franchise because it got put on SNES Classic.

As for Min Min, she didn't get in because of a request, that's only half the story. ARMS got a character because Nintendo had a new IP to shill, much like Splatoon, except everyone actually liked Splatoon. In fact, Spring Man would have been a lock had the choice been made earlier, but since it took so long to get to negotiations by the time Sakurai came around to it the game had been out for over two years and had a community and a lead dev who loved another character much more, and thus she was chosen instead.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sorry, but that's literally keeping it alive as an active product. That's exactly how it works. BK was consistently being sold by Microsoft through a package deal. It's literally being advertised. I call it Life Support for a good reason, since it's still a weak form of keeping it alive.

It was directly advertised to be played as by Sakurai. He can't do that if the game isn't remotely active or available.

And no, there was no new IP to shill(it's an old IP that was barely active, but had no new advertisements to begin with. BK actually has been advertised more consistently overall through RR than ARMS has been for over a year. It's clear which one had an advertising factor, and ARMS wasn't it... till the guessing game, the sole time they've advertised it for at least, what, 2 years?). It literally is the case of the request and that's it. Not everything is some ridiculous advertisement reason(This does apply to BK, but we saw that in practice, anyway). BK also being part of Rare Replay is due to fan demand, sure. But the reality is Microsoft treats it as an important product overall, enough they made outright merchandise for it despite it not even being needed(it doesn't matter that Smash justified it. They made new product off of it cause they considered it worth it).

Active product absolutely means "available right now". That is not disingenuous whatsoever. That's just pure accuracy. I'll always consider any kind of port as a part of activity. It's only inactive if you can't actually find it. Golden Sun became inactive the second the Wii U died(which is recently), and also lacked any advertisement(BK did not lack this, as they're among the many games directly noted among Rare Replay). Collections are 100% active product and it's silly to say otherwise. Microsoft absolutely kept all of it active by making sure it was available on new systems lately. A collection doesn't change a single thing about that. They wanted people to play every game as an option, which means they wanted people to play BK.

The timeline doesn't fit. How can they magically figure out Min Min was going to take almost a half a year to be ready back in around June, when she was decided(if not earlier). They had no way to know that, so the guessing game couldn't have been decided anywhere near that early. That'd have to be thought of later on when they found out she'd take a long time, which is why the guessing game came up early in the next year, when they were able to think of that strategy. Now that Min Min was straight-out chosen because of the request, and Sakurai said yes, they needed an excuse to say "yes, the Smash DLC is on the way", and with such a long wait(even before the delay so she'd be available by June), they didn't really have much of a choice anymore. Either they say nothing and people slowly lose interest in DLC, or do a double thing by later advertising ARMS(which Min Min isn't even a straight part of) immediately to make people get interest in the series while also keeping Smash speculation(which created hype in their opinion) at an all-time high. Min Min failed to shill a thing, because she wasn't actually even used to advertise ARMS. The guessing game is the entire brunt of the advertisement, and it makes perfect sense. That's the only reason they'd bother to play it, to figure out who could be the one chosen. Only a tiny selection of users were sure it was Min Min, and they were exactly right on why; Because she was the creator's Favorite. That's it. I didn't think it was, but it turned out that was the case(albeit, he favors Spring Man equally). The only other ones who knew was Imran Kahn, and he only leaked it in an odd way before it actually happened. Yet we had a crapload of speculation over multiple characters, which is the actual reason ARMS got interest for Nintendo. It's purely a speculation factor they went for, and while they didn't succeed, it makes way more sense for it to serve this purpose than thinking of the guessing game way before they knew... she would take a half-year to come out. Again, they'd have to figure out a guessing game was needed to "keep interest in Smash" a year in advance. That's not remotely believable, sorry.

 

[Dan]

Am I the only one that doesn't really mind any inclusion unless it's the likes of (as the fans call it) 4th party characters? Sure, I have some preferences (Geno being one of them) but this is a videogame, not some life important UN discussion

I mean, the fact the roster isn't "life important" isn't really gonna change the fact I prefer certain characters to others.

No, you are not a realist. A realist, as I mentioned in the general thread, is someone who analyzes all the information given to them and comes to the most likely to be conclusion (thus, the 'real' conclusion) and doesn't let their bias stray them from what is likely to happen. You have confused pessimist with realist, like many MANY people in recent generations because people have moved to this mindset where 'the worst IS the most likely to happen' when that just flat out isn't the case.

Acting as if Geno has no chance over a simple reused asset getting a touch-up and returning isn't being a realist, it's being a pessimist and using something that bears no real weight as an excuse to confirm your doubts.

You are certifiably insane. The common sense of a human would tell you that the fact they brought back his costume sways in the favor of him not being playable. You do realize you are in an insane straw-grasping minority on this, right? Most would think you're trolling.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sakurai in the past has even said that costumes were to compensate for characters not being playable, correct? As if that wasn't blatantly obvious.

Meanwhile, we have so many things in Geno's favor that it's kinda ridiculous

Please state them.

Also, your clear bias is open for display with the fact that you don't care if we get more characters because the characters we got thus far didn't appeal to you out of the 20+ million who have purchased Ultimate. I'm not sure who you even truly want, but realize that the world of video game characters is massive and not every one of them (nor most of them really) can appeal to you, especially if you limit your horizons on what games you play, what consoles you play on, and how niche your taste is. I accept that with Geno being the only character I really want out of the millions of video game characters out there, most of them won't tickle my fancy, but are dope in their own way. This is just more proof that you are in fact a pessimist and not a realist

What the hell does my preference for the roster have anything to do with his chances? And who are you to judge my preference? This had nothing to do with the conversation at hand. I literally just can't with people like you. Have fun in your fantasyland, because beyond this, this conversation is clearly going to be a waste of time.

But really, what do you want me to do? Force myself to like things I don't? Sorry I'm a human bud. It's okay to dislike things.

 

[Icewolff92]

I mean, the fact the roster isn't "life important" isn't really gonna change the fact I prefer certain characters to others.

And that's totally fine. But your wording made it feel like you see it as life or death. But if that´s not the cause, then my bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sakurai in the past has even said that costumes were to compensate for characters not being playable, correct? As if that wasn't blatantly obvious.

He did

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

I’m still on those people that believe Geno has a chance.

Before any person jumps on my case:

• I’m not saying it’s high.
• I’m not saying it’s realistic.
• I’m just saying he has a chance.

 

[Icewolff92]

I’m still on those people that believe Geno has a chance.

Before any person jumps on my case:

• I’m not saying it’s high.
• I’m not saying it’s realistic.
• I’m just saying he has a chance.

And as someone that has given up hope, that´s totally fair. But that doesn´t mean you can scratch your head when people claim that its "stronger than before", when those so-called evidence has yet to arrive

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

And as someone that has given up hope, that´s totally fair. But that doesn´t mean you can scratch your head when people claim that its "stronger than before", when those so-called evidence has yet to arrive

I don’t remember doing such things. O.o

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don’t remember doing such things. O.o

I think the user is speaking in general towards everyone.

 

[Icewolff92]

I think the user is speaking in general towards everyone.

Sort of

 

[TheBeastHimself]

ForsakenM

I gotta ask you for clarification on what you mean by being a "realist." Like, if Geno is the character you want the most, and most of your realist conclusions are being drawn towards Geno having a chance, how can you be sure that you aren't biased?

It's almost impossible for people to completely ignore their biases, and they can influence conclusions in the most subtle of ways that you may not be consciously aware of.

This isn't to be mean, but I just don't understand your crusade to make sure everyone thinks the way you do, while shaming those who are pessimistic. if I remember correctly, you've said in the past that you like to debate and that's fine. But I always get a very aggressive impression when I read your posts...

I ain't trying to start anything, I'm just asking for some clarification.

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

I think the user is speaking in general towards everyone.

They are definitely sending mixed signals.

 

[Dan]

I’m still on those people that believe Geno has a chance.

Before any person jumps on my case:

• I’m not saying it’s high.
• I’m not saying it’s realistic.
• I’m just saying he has a chance.

And this is perfectly okay and reasonable; my issue is with ForesakenM saying he's getting in, providing 0 reasoning and then calling me a pessimist for believing the odds aren't in his favor... like where do these people even come from.

 

[Icewolff92]

And this is perfectly okay and reasonable; my issue is with ForesakenM saying he's getting in, providing 0 reasoning and then calling me a pessimist for believing the odds aren't in his favor... like where do these people even come from.

That´s exactly what I was trying to come across

 

[ForsakenM]

ForsakenM

I gotta ask you for clarification on what you mean by being a "realist." Like, if Geno is the character you want the most, and most of your realist conclusions are being drawn towards Geno having a chance, how can you be sure that you aren't biased?

It's almost impossible for people to completely ignore their biases, and they can influence conclusions in the most subtle of ways that you may not be consciously aware of.

This isn't to be mean, but I just don't understand your crusade to make sure everyone thinks the way you do, while shaming those who are pessimistic. if I remember correctly, you've said in the past that you like to debate and that's fine. But I always get a very aggressive impression when I read your posts...

I ain't trying to start anything, I'm just asking for some clarification.

I actually don't think Geno is in this pass: the realist in me gathers all the evidence and says 'Gee, Geno REALLY has a lot of points in his favor', but then when I compare it to other evidence, my conclusion is that some combination of Crash, Hayabusa and Dante is what is most likely...but that doesn't change that Geno could still be in this pass and that his chances for both this pass and future content are extraordinarily high. And then I come here to the GENO SUPPORT THREAD and y'all have thrown out everything in his favor over a reused asset.

That is where I am coming from: I feel like one of ten logical Geno fans in a sea of thousands who have all abandoned the ship because and doubt the captain's orders because they thought he was leading them directly to treasure when they themselves read the map incorrectly.

I'll state this yet again: When the Mii costume first returned, I was extremely depressed for about two days. I thought it was over, as well as many of my friends, but it took common sense from my friend who HATES Smash and isn't fond of Geno in combination with another friend who never gave up for me to realize that looking towards the Mii Costume as some do or die thing was never how we should have gone about it.

Something this community doesn't understand is how to look at things from a company's perspective: the goal being to make the most money, things set in motion are hard to change, and making more from less, and how PR and fan catering really works. If you look at Geno's situation from a company's eyes, a simple costume won't stop them from making a character that people will buy for $5.99. From a company's perspective, making money off of something they made already and could basically cut n' paste into the game is optimal. For a company, catering to it's core fanbase is very important, but so is trying to draw in new consumers and whichever is more profitable money-wise needs to be balanced with what is more profitable in good will, getting both being optimal but the money is more of a priority.

This is a bit of a pre-post edit, but I have been even more encouraged more about Geno's chances.

And this is perfectly okay and reasonable; my issue is with ForesakenM saying he's getting in, providing 0 reasoning and then calling me a pessimist for believing the odds aren't in his favor... like where do these people even come from.

They come from people who respect boundaries but still want fellow fans of the same character to stop being pessimistic ninnies who throw the character's chances into the abyss by giving up on him.

I shouldn't have to list evidence that has been out on ****ing display for years now: as a person who allegedly wants Geno in and partakes a bit in speculation, you think you would have found things out about the character's chances that have been around since 2018 or earlier.

However, though I should be asleep right now, let's start off with the basics: how you are wrong about Geno's costume.

You assume that since Geno's costume has returned to Ultimate, and that the majority (if not all) third party (and even first party) costumes were more or less consolation prizes for characters that could not be made a reality in Smash 4, that this same logic applies to costumes returning to Ultimate...this is simply not the case.

First off, as you can plainly see by the first party costumes, it most definitely suggests that they were only consolation prizes in Smash 4 because there wasn't time nor resources to dedicate to expanding the game any further than what they had planned at that time. But, since people are trying to separate first and third party costumes as if they are treated differently in every way, let's just address them alone here.

All signs point to all eleven characters in this DLC thus far being mostly selected and negotiated for shortly after the March Trailer Reveal in 2018, instead of Pass 1 being negotiated for and then mostly completed and then negotiating for Pass 2. This means that the decision to return all the existing third party costumes over these eleven DLC characters via MCWs was also negotiated and set in stone around the same time, and since Kimishima was PoN at the time, we know that this decision would have been made purely out of a business-smarts: If we have reused assets that we have to renew the rights for, instead of making them base game, touch them up a bit and re-sell them so that we all make money off of low-effort content. We also know this because all but the last third party costume has returned, thus clearly showing it WILL return and that it was always the intent for them all to return.

So, riddle me this: does it makes sense for someone who is business-driven to then suggest that certain characters can't be made playable because they are reusing content of them and selling them separately from the game, regardless of how popular or how much potential revenue they could make? Do you think that this decision was only made AFTER they tried to get some characters but then couldn't and THEN decided to re-sell these assets, or do you think it was a decision made purely for profit and giving the players a sense of completion and had no impact on character negotiation nor any correlation? That would be like a situation of any other fighting game out there selling a costume or costume pieces that make a character look like another character, and then stopping themselves from using the opportunity to include the ACTUAL character later and losing out on money for literally no reason.

Also, what sense does it make to re-sell costumes with the same intent of them being consolation prizes when you have now and had ample time and resources and the knowledge of their demand to now make them playable? What sense does it make to wait to see if negotiations fall through before then negotiating to re-sell costumes when all these costumes do is make everyone money whether or not the respective character is acquired? You also have to negotiate NEW costumes as well, and you would clearly negotiation for the returning ones there as well, and since you can plug in MOST of these costume in with any MCW with any character what reason would you have to wait even after the new costumes get chosen?

What I'm trying to say is, this was going to happen no matter what characters were going to be chosen, and thus never had any impact on character decisions. Whether Geno gets in or not, his costume was coming back. Whether Lloyd gets in or not, his costume is coming back. The Monster Hunter costumes were all coming back no matter if we got a character from the series or not, just like how all the Megaman costumes came back...and you get the idea by now.

Now you may bring up 'If Geno's costume was always coming back, why didn't it come back WITH him? Doesn't it coming back with another Square rep kill his chances?' and the answer to that is just as easy of a no to give as it is to returning costumes deconfirming characters. Square content always comes with Square content, and thus Geno's costume was going to come back with any Square character at some point, either himself or another such as what happened with Sephy. What likely happened is that Sakurai and Nintendo negotiated for Dragon Quest costumes and wanted to let DQ enjoy it's own spotlight with no with Square content, knowing that another Square rep was happening anyway. In addition, it's likely that the above is true and additionally that both Hero and Sephy were negotiated for at roughly the same time to save time, so the costumes for each character went through the approval stage, and Sephy only had three new costumes so they plugged in the two returning Square costumes in there because Square content only comes with Square content. Keep in mind that out of nine MCWs, we are only missing one third party costume, when it could have been spread out over more or less MCWs, thus it was done in a way that was agreed upon during negotiations.

As my adoring 4chan public loves to note that I mentioned in the past, Geno could have easily been negotiated with enough new content that he simply had all his slots filled with new content. If you think about it, adding one-to-three SMRPG costumes and then tossing in some other Square franchises for costumes like maybe Lara Croft or Crono or hell maybe even 2B or Neku fills all that up quickly. It could also be that Geno isn't coming with Square content and is treated like a Mario character, thus the returning 'Square content' had to come with a 'Square character' and thus he comes with all first party costumes in his wave. I would love to see the dumb Red Shell hat come with him just because...well, SMRPG fans get it. It's also entirely possible that Geno just wasn't negotiated for in this group of eleven but is coming in later DLC, and thus since all the third party costumes were scheduled to show up within these eleven DLC packs it just ended up like this.

In addition, we already have proof that costumes (nor any content really) stop a character from getting into the game via Spring Man and Rex's situations.

I'm sure there are many other points I could bring up, but I have work in less than seven hours, so I'm going to get some shut-eye. If your argument was simply about costumes newly added to Ultimate, I would be more likely to acknowledge such a stance's possibility, but I have issues with that as well that I will go into at another time. Hopefully now people in the new Geno Thread understand why not including a character over a returning asset for sale makes no business sense at all and thus makes no speculation sense at all.

 

[Geno Boost]

I think Geno current best chance is being at a final bonus fighter
I am still hoping for fighter pass 3 there is enough space for 4 more fighters and 3 stages are empty

 

[Dan]

That is where I am coming from: I feel like one of ten logical Geno fans in a sea of thousands who have all abandoned the ship because and doubt the captain's orders because they thought he was leading them directly to treasure when they themselves read the map incorrectly.

I mean, my treasure wasn't him being playable; it was a deluxe Mii, and they even failed in that regard.

Also, I like how you refer to me as an "alleged fan" now cause I don't think his chances are good at all lol. Guess that makes PapaGenos and everyone else "alleged fans".

Also, what sense does it make to re-sell costumes with the same intent of them being consolation prizes when you have now and had ample time and resources and the knowledge of their demand to now make them playable?

To make money. They have known Geno as an in-demand character for over a decade; your point is moot. They only care about the fans to a certain degree. If they fully cared about us, Geno and Isaac would be playable by now; not Byleth and Piranha Plant lol.

My point is you're inferring they're gonna put him in cause the fans want him... this has been going on for over 10 years now and he still isn't playable... so???

I mean, the fact you were "extremely depressed" after the costume kinda explains your straw-grasping thesis to me now. I guess the smallest glimmer of hope I see is him getting in as a bonus fighter, but even that seems highly unlikely.

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

Being called an “alleged fan” when you’re one of the biggest Geno supporters is highly annoying.

Especially when I was one of the first to state he still has a chance after his costume reveal. I may not have been in these boards long, but I’ve been wanting him in since melee.

 

[Vector Victor]

Fan demand and its impact varies with characters and is very hit or miss. You have obvious popular characters who are quickly added like Isabelle. But then there are those instances where much more is needed. Look at K Rool. DK is one of Nintendo's biggest selling franchises, the characters are very popular and the Country games are held in very high regard. And yet it still took until the 5th Smash game for the franchise to get a third character, and that STILL needed a massive flood of support from the ballot to finally convince Nintendo.

Then there's situations like FE where their criteria for being insta-added is merely existing.


It could be that Geno is like a DK situation. All the criteria is there, but its just not enough to click for Nintendo.

Him being a costume again is disappointing but that's the current reality. Could he be updated? Maybe, but nothing concrete to support it. What's annoying is that there have been so much "evidence" or "proof" with Geno that ended up just being coincidences, with a few crazy coincidences that could only have happened if the universe itself was sentient and wanted to be spiteful to the fanbase. There appeared to be so many things pointing in his favor that never panned out.

The thing that did piss me off about the costume is how long it took them to release it. That is some bull****. I feel the same way with all returning Smash 4 costumes. They should all been available far earlier. Not only did they not intend for a fanbase's character to not be playable, they denied the fans time to at least enjoy their consolidation prize. If Lloyd is not happening, then release his damn costume already and give his fanbase closure. There is no reason fans had to wait TWO years to get the Geno costume back.

Sometimes it feels like that Nintendo thinks that fans eagerly love to see assist trophies and Mii costumes, like that's a major highlight in Smash. Except it's not; people want characters. "Oh look, your popular franchise has so many assist trophies. That totally makes up for not giving them a new character since Melee." The only two Mii costumes that garnered massive hype were sans (because no one expected Undertale stuff) and Cuphead (popular and also the fighter he was revealed was.........less than hype).

 

[Icewolff92]

To make money. They have known Geno as an in-demand character for over a decade; your point is moot. They only care about the fans to a certain degree. If they fully cared about us, Geno and Isaac would be playable by now; not Byleth and Piranha Plant lol.

To be fair, Nintendo would never be able to please everyone. Not even if Sakurai worked on this game until he died would they not be able to do so..

 

[Icewolff92]

Fan demand and its impact varies with characters and is very hit or miss. You have obvious popular characters who are quickly added like Isabelle. But then there are those instances where much more is needed. Look at K Rool. DK is one of Nintendo's biggest selling franchises, the characters are very popular and the Country games are held in very high regard. And yet it still took until the 5th Smash game for the franchise to get a third character, and that STILL needed a massive flood of support from the ballot to finally convince Nintendo.

Then there's situations like FE where their criteria for being insta-added is merely existing.


It could be that Geno is like a DK situation. All the criteria is there, but its just not enough to click for Nintendo.

Him being a costume again is disappointing but that's the current reality. Could he be updated? Maybe, but nothing concrete to support it. What's annoying is that there have been so much "evidence" or "proof" with Geno that ended up just being coincidences, with a few crazy coincidences that could only have happened if the universe itself was sentient and wanted to be spiteful to the fanbase. There appeared to be so many things pointing in his favor that never panned out.

The thing that did piss me off about the costume is how long it took them to release it. That is some bull****. I feel the same way with all returning Smash 4 costumes. They should all been available far earlier. Not only did they not intend for a fanbase's character to not be playable, they denied the fans time to at least enjoy their consolidation prize. If Lloyd is not happening, then release his damn costume already and give his fanbase closure. There is no reason fans had to wait TWO years to get the Geno costume back.

Sometimes it feels like that Nintendo thinks that fans eagerly love to see assist trophies and Mii costumes, like that's a major highlight in Smash. Except it's not; people want characters. "Oh look, your popular franchise has so many assist trophies. That totally makes up for not giving them a new character since Melee." The only two Mii costumes that garnered massive hype were sans (because no one expected Undertale stuff) and Cuphead (popular and also the fighter he was revealed was.........less than hype).

Sakurai has stated that Mii Costume & Assist Trophies is a "sorry but here you have something at least" price.

 

[ForsakenM]

Being called an “alleged fan” when you’re one of the biggest Geno supporters is highly annoying.

Especially when I was one of the first to state he still has a chance after his costume reveal. I may not have been in these boards long, but I’ve been wanting him in since melee.

When I say alleged fan, it's because I literally don't know the person well enough or seen enough of their posts to know. I don't remember Dan from the old thread, and people who don't want Geno used to post regularly in the Geno Thread, so I used the language to describe things as I saw appropriate.

Kudos to you for being one of the first to not give up at the sight of the costume returning. Added to my list of regrets is that I couldn't have been the same kind of rock despite being a fairly decent cornerstone throughout the rest of it all, though I have come back stronger than most after that small period of time.

I myself have wanted SMRPG back in some form since I fell in love with it in 1996, and I wanted him in Smash since OG 64, even with my ADHD distracted me from it over my life. I feel ya on that wait buddy, but the odds are it won't be for much longer.

I mean, my treasure wasn't him being playable; it was a deluxe Mii, and they even failed in that regard.

Also, I like how you refer to me as an "alleged fan" now cause I don't think his chances are good at all lol. Guess that makes PapaGenos and everyone else "alleged fans".


To make money. They have known Geno as an in-demand character for over a decade; your point is moot. They only care about the fans to a certain degree. If they fully cared about us, Geno and Isaac would be playable by now; not Byleth and Piranha Plant lol.

My point is you're inferring they're gonna put him in cause the fans want him... this has been going on for over 10 years now and he still isn't playable... so???

I mean, the fact you were "extremely depressed" after the costume kinda explains your straw-grasping thesis to me now. I guess the smallest glimmer of hope I see is him getting in as a bonus fighter, but even that seems highly unlikely.

So first off, if your best hope was for a Deluxe Costume, I'm not sure what to say there. Sounds like you've always been a bit disillusioned about Geno's ungodly good position. I'm not one to accept second place so easily, but I won't judge someone's dedication like this to gatekeep them being a fan or not.

I will judge your mindset though, which seems to be stuck in a worldview of self-pity to point of exclusion of reality.

As I already mentioned many times before, things take time and over time, things change. Acting as if Geno has no chance because he hasn't happened yet is stupid, plain and simple. Perhaps you forgot the demand for Ridley, who was nothing but a trophy, boss and stage interaction until Ultimate? Or perhaps King K. Rool, who was nothing but a trophy until his costume in Smash 4? What about Castlevania fans who got nothing up until Ultimate? Should we speak of how long it took Dragon Quest, the most renown game in Japan pretty much ever, taking this long to get into Smash? The bear and bird have been wanted as long as many of the others if not longer, and he's only been in Smash for just short of two years now, coming this September.

So...your point is the one that is actually moot and never made sense in the first place: just because we want something and let a company know about what we want doesn't mean it will happen immediately, and it not happening immediately doesn't mean it won't happen at all. How many years did it take for Dragon Ball to get a legitimate competitive 2D fighting game after years of games that got worse as they went along? People made it known they wanted Master Roshi from the beginning, but it took until September of last year for it happen in the third wave of DLC. People wanted a new Soul Calibur after the flop of SCV starting around 2014 or 2015, but it didn't happen until 2018. Did you pay attention to how long of a gap there was between MvC2 and MvC3?

I'm pretty disappointed that my admitting to being depressed like most of us for a small time is being used as a weapon against my attempts to bring you guys out of this mindset that the fight is over, as flimsy as that weapon may be, and the only one grasping at straws are those sucking the life out of our support for the character and killing his chances of ever getting in should the nigh-impossible happen and he doesn't make it to this game.

Also Geno will never be a bonus fighter, because as I've already established, third party characters always get more respect than that. Sakurai wants to represent new worlds into Smash, so just including a character won't do when it comes to third party. Only a franchise that is already represented in the game would get simply a singular character with no other content, which is thus far has only been first party for obvious reasons. Besides, Waluigi is already essentially signed up to be any bonus character, that much is clear.

Now I don't feel well, so I'm going to go relax. If I have the drive, perhaps I will go over the giant list of things that have been in Geno's favor for years now, though it will only be things that have been around for a while already, so no ******** about any of it if you've already heard about it before.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai has stated that Mii Costume & Assist Trophies is a "sorry but here you have something at least" price.

In most cases, yeah. But sometimes they weren't even considered but are still a notable character. Tingle was probably never considered, but is still very popular, so instant AT. Waluigi obviously was considered.

It is a consolation prize, usually. But there's going to be cases where it's obviously not either way. ...I don't need to obviously say a ton of random Nintendo costumes are like that.

 

[Icewolff92]

In most cases, yeah. But sometimes they weren't even considered but are still a notable character. Tingle was probably never considered, but is still very popular, so instant AT. Waluigi obviously was considered.

It is a consolation prize, usually. But there's going to be cases where it's obviously not either way. ...I don't need to obviously say a ton of random Nintendo costumes are like that.

Since when was it said that Waluigi was considered to be a fighter?

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Since when was it said that Waluigi was considered to be a fighter?

Never. It seems to me, on the contrary, that Waluigi was never even humored as possibly becoming one in Sakurai's eyes, notably his (harsh) comment about him during Smash For's development.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Since when was it said that Waluigi was considered to be a fighter?

That's what I got from "couldn't be a fighter this time around".

Albeit, that's one interpretation. But it's the only real example available, since all the other considered characters we know of never showed up or were straight-out playable, or just a spirit, or in other words, not a costume or AT.

But even that, that's the point. Not all AT's/Costumes are definitely prizes. Some can be, but not all. So we know Bomberman was considered? Maybe? The Mii Costume suggests it more, since he was upgraded to half-playable, but maybe he was never considered.

 

[Icewolff92]

That's what I got from "couldn't be a fighter this time around".

Albeit, that's one interpretation. But it's the only real example available, since all the other considered characters we know of never showed up or were straight-out playable, or just a spirit, or in other words, not a costume or AT.

But even that, that's the point. Not all AT's/Costumes are definitely prizes. Some can be, but not all. So we know Bomberman was considered? Maybe? The Mii Costume suggests it more, since he was upgraded to half-playable, but maybe he was never considered.

That could just be PR talk though. As far as we know, Waluigi could be someone that has never been considered because of some reason

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That could just be PR talk though. As far as we know, Waluigi could be someone that has never been considered because of some reason

That's pretty much what I'm getting at.

He was only one possible example I could think of.

But yeah, AT's/Miis sometimes are consolation prizes. That's my point.

Geno is clearly that case, and frankly, I'm sad he didn't at least get the Deluxe treatment. He still got a small update so it looks reasonable on the Switch, but that was it.

I can still hope for a Bonus Fighter of him, but I have no hope of Bonus Fighters in general, so. I certainly could see him being done. Speaking of, where's our SMRPG on Switch already? D: