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Geno's Bizarre Adventure part 2: Stardust Crusaders (Geno Support Thread #2)

Vector Victor

Smash Lord
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
1,961
Right now, the value of the DLC costs almost as much as the game itself and is about 1/16th of its content and its still insanely successful, so they are getting base game profits with less work/output from Sakurai's team (a business's dream). You have to assume that Sakurai's workload is significantly lighter now than three years ago, unless he's secretly working on another game currently. Granted, he could also just be tired with being tied down with Smash for so long, who knows.

Even an echoes pass would turn a profit.
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,620
Right now, the value of the DLC costs almost as much as the game itself and is about 1/16th of its content and its still insanely successful, so they are getting base game profits with less work/output from Sakurai's team (a business's dream). You have to assume that Sakurai's workload is significantly lighter now than three years ago, unless he's secretly working on another game currently. Granted, he could also just be tired with being tied down with Smash for so long, who knows.

Even an echoes pass would turn a profit.
I mean he has worked with the franchise nonstop for almost a decade now, so no one can´t blame him if he would be tired with being tied down with Smash at this point.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
Thought it would be cool to share this here!

Take the hint Nintendo/Squeenix. TAKE THE FREAKIN' HINT.
 
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Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
They have taken the hint. They just don't give a ****.
I know they don't seem to care, but my point is there is a significant number of people out there that love and support a side character from a Mario game from 20 years ago. You would think such a random character would have been easily forgotten and never thought of again, yet we see tons of examples, such as the cartoon referenced in the tweet, where people are still keeping his memory alive. Even to this day, it's fairly easy to argue that SMRPG was the greatest and most epic Mario RPG game to date and Geno is the physical embodiment of that belief. I've seen far more support for him in AND outside of Smash circles than tons of other video game characters out there and I'm fairly confident that if Nintendo and Squeenix could pull their heads out of their asses long enough to concoct a SMRPG sequel, it would make mountains of cash. People like Geno. People would love to see him in Smash or other IPs (like the aforementioned sequel or Mario Kart) and I still feel that Nintendo and/or Squeenix's refusal to revisit him is a massively missed opportunity. That's the hint they need to take.
 

ForsakenM

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,984
I know they don't seem to care, but my point is there is a significant number of people out there that love and support a side character from a Mario game from 20 years ago. You would think such a random character would have been easily forgotten and never thought of again, yet we see tons of examples, such as the cartoon referenced in the tweet, where people are still keeping his memory alive. Even to this day, it's fairly easy to argue that SMRPG was the greatest and most epic Mario RPG game to date and Geno is the physical embodiment of that belief. I've seen far more support for him in AND outside of Smash circles than tons of other video game characters out there and I'm fairly confident that if Nintendo and Squeenix could pull their heads out of their asses long enough to concoct a SMRPG sequel, it would make mountains of cash. People like Geno. People would love to see him in Smash or other IPs (like the aforementioned sequel or Mario Kart) and I still feel that Nintendo and/or Squeenix's refusal to revisit him is a massively missed opportunity. That's the hint they need to take.
But they DO care. People forget how long it took for Ridley, K.Rool and Banjo to get into Smash. Just because YOU want something and those who produce what you want ALSO want that something doesn't mean that it will be the very next thing that happens. Game development takes time, and the pandemic ruined everyone's schedule, so just keep making your support known and keep your eyes open.

However, Geno Bros, we are in a weird situation here. The first two times Sakurai hinted at this being the last of the DLC. it was still pretty vague and could be interpreted as many other things, but this last Famitsu Column is a really big blow to the idea of more DLC. It's STILL not impossible, but there are some things to address with this statement.

First, this is seemingly the first time Sakurai has insisted so many times that this was the end of development, not for any other game and not even for Ultimate up until Pass 2. It's odd that he would be insisting the end this much, especially publicly like this. Should we read more into this, or is this just Sakurai politely warning his fans since he knows we are hoping for more?

Secondly, this statement of Sakurai's isn't vague in the slightest. This isn't a pre-Steve situation like with his Min Min famitsu column, and this isn't like Pyra/Mythra's presentation where the statement is vague enough to take it to mean other things: this is flat out 'these last two characters are the end' with no other way to interpret it, which is pretty damning.

Lastly, let's look at the timing of this: we only have two characters left in this pass and odds are they are both 90-100% done regardless of whether you believe in any swaps or anything. There is a VERY high chance both will be announced this E3, so basically at this point if there was more DLC they would already be working on it and it would likely be announced in some form very soon. Sakurai could have said nothing and just let it go until the end of 11's presentation, but instead he made a point to bring it up NOW before E3. In addition to that, he mentioned it in a famitsu that could have gone entirely without mentioning Smash at all if he desired, and yet he made a point to double-down in that column and make sure we know that this is the end for Ultimate's DLC.

All of this suggests that Sakurai is trying to do fans a solid of some sort and make sure we all understand that these last two are INDEED the last two, something I don't quite understand why he's doing that, but I'm sure some fans appreciate this for one reason or another. However, this heavily conflicts with information we've heard for multiple characters, too many to think that two more slots will be enough to match up with what we've heard, and some of this info is incredibly damning.

So, the way I see it, we have a few situations we could be in here, and I'll list them from what I personally think is least likely to most likely, starting with least likely.
  1. Sakurai is telling us the big fibberino, in the attempt to bring us 'back-down-to-earth' and not expecting anything more so that when it does happen we will explode all over again. I honestly see this as the least likely outcome. Sakurai may have gone back on his word before, but I can't recall a time he outright lied to us, especially in such a scenario like this. In this situation, it makes sense to only bring it up once and never mention it again no matter how far into development unless asked via interview, but going out of your way to mention it freely on multiple occasions just to setup an elaborate lie for fan excitement? Not only does that seem very unlike Sakurai, but Smash is a huge deal so it's incredibly unnecessary.

  2. Smash DLC will continue, but Sakurai will not be leading the charge. This scenario is one in which Sakurai takes a back seat from his position and Nintendo puts someone else in charge, thus continuing the DLC but without Sakurai at the helm of it. While Sakurai's column was very much about retirement and reflecting on his age, if anything his column gives off a 'I'm not done yet!' vibe, and I'm not sure Nintendo would want to replace Sakurai considering the impact that would have on the community as well as how well the DLC has been and how skilled Sakurai is at his job. I do see this as a more likely scenario than Sakurai outright lying to us though, as Nintendo may want to capitalize on more DLC money while Sakurai would rather not and Nintendo does be Nintendo and make weird decisions sometimes.

  3. I think these two are about as equally likely, so I'll list them as such. Please make no misunderstanding here between what I think will happen and what I want to happen, thank you.

    1. This really is the end of Ultimate's updates after CP 10 and 11, not even a bonus or anything, maybe some spirit events or something and then the doors close on this fantastic, world-shaking edition of Masahiro Sakurai's Wild Ride. For whatever reason, either all of what we've heard or most of it (meaning either none of the characters we've heard are in or only two of them are) is just wrong, whether it be leak bait or being compromised, negotiations fell out or the character was left on the cutting room floor because it just couldn't be done for one reason or another.

      Does this make sense according to our info? No, it doesn't. Does this make sense according to business sense? Not at all, but both Kimishima and Furakawa have allegedly been on record stating that they think if DLC goes too big people will not want to buy the base game knowing they have to spend so much money past that to have the game feel 'complete', despite how DLC is meant to appeal to the core audience who has already bought the game and not new players and yet still makes way more many the game sales. This means that they value some sort of balance being struck between those who have already purchased the game and those who haven't, despite how many copies of the game Steve sold and how outside of Steve, it's unlikely that the base game will sell too much drastically more as it's very clear that it's already reached critical mass. So on one hand, Furakawa sees all the money made from DLC, but on the other hand he doesn't want the DLC to become so overwhelming that it discourages new buyers into thinking they HAVE to spend another $50 on top of the $60 and thus they choose another game instead.

    2. This is the end for Ultimate, but not the end of Smash on the Switch. Geno Bros, I give you something I've mentioned before, which is the idea of a Smash Ultimate Deluxe. Capcom has been doing this with Street Fighter before DLC was even a possibility, but the most recent examples are with SF4 and SFV: both of these games have lots of DLC, but there are also multiple versions of the game you can buy that come with certain amounts of DLC in that base package. This is a very good way of making the game and all of it's extensive DLC content and updates accessible to someone who just decided to pick up the game now while not screwing over your previous consumers: both people have the same game, it's just all in one package for someone who got in there late...well, and there is a good chance they paid a good share less than the person who bought the DLC new and the base game, but you got to appeal to new customers somehow. NetherRealm Studios has been doing this since I believe the first Injustice if not since the MK9. I would be okay if this was the route taken, but unfortunately I think it will go something more like this...

      Marvel vs Capcom 3 was a very long-awaited sequel to the classic Marvel vs Capcom 2, eleven or so years in the making. It released in February of 2011...and Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 released in November of the same year. I think you can already get an idea of the issues here, but I'll dive deeper for those of you who don't know.

      So Capcom, whether it was due to stupidity or because of Marvel/Disney being a pain, made the decision to release UMvC3 as a stand-alone game and not give any DLC updates to OG MvC3. Upon release, the essentially killed the community for OG MvC3 and forced you to spend another $60+ on a brand new game to keep playing. Sure, it had a lot of updates and characters people really wanted (including myself with Ghost Rider) but it was still forcing people who already paid for their game to buy it again to keep playing without giving an option to do an online update, perhaps at even a lower cost. I remember there being a fair share of upset fans much like I was and talking with them and there were talks of a boycott (although I cannot say it would have gotten anywhere and clearly the game did well so...yeah) but then all the new characters leaked and that was pretty much all she wrote as most of them were someone somebody wanted.

      I see a future where we get something Ultimate Deluxe, which has all the previous DLC, and new/returning modes and ever more fun stuff as well as 6-8 new characters...but it's exclusive to the Switch Pro and you have to pay $60 for the new game, screwing over all of the fans who already bought the previous game and all of it's DLC.

At this point, it's a lesser of two evils situation, as far as I'm concerned: either it wholly ends here in the coming months, or we get more but at the cost of healthy consumerism practice.
 
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Shroob

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But they DO care. People forget how long it took for Ridley, K.Rool and Banjo to get into Smash. Just because YOU want something and those who produce what you want ALSO want that something doesn't mean that it will be the very next thing that happens. Game development takes time, and the pandemic ruined everyone's schedule, so just keep making your support known and keep your eyes open.

However, Geno Bros, we are in a weird situation here. The first two times Sakurai hinted at this being the last of the DLC. it was still pretty vague and could be interpreted as many other things, but this last Famitsu Column is a really big blow to the idea of more DLC. It's STILL not impossible, but there are some things to address with this statement.

First, this is seemingly the first time Sakurai has insisted so many times that this was the end of development, not for any other game and not even for Ultimate up until Pass 2. It's odd that he would be insisting the end this much, especially publicly like this. Should we read more into this, or is this just Sakurai politely warning his fans since he knows we are hoping for more?

Secondly, this statement of Sakurai's isn't vague in the slightest. This isn't a pre-Steve situation like with his Min Min famitsu column, and this isn't like Pyra/Mythra's presentation where the statement is vague enough to take it to mean other things: this is flat out 'these last two characters are the end' with no other way to interpret it, which is pretty damning.

Lastly, let's look at the timing of this: we only have two characters left in this pass and odds are they are both 90-100% done regardless of whether you believe in any swaps or anything. There is a VERY high chance both will be announced this E3, so basically at this point if there was more DLC they would already be working on it and it would likely be announced in some form very soon. Sakurai could have said nothing and just let it go until the end of 11's presentation, but instead he made a point to bring it up NOW before E3. In addition to that, he mentioned it in a famitsu that could have gone entirely without mentioning Smash at all if he desired, and yet he made a point to double-down in that column and make sure we know that this is the end for Ultimate's DLC.

All of this suggests that Sakurai is trying to do fans a solid of some sort and make sure we all understand that these last two are INDEED the last two, something I don't quite understand why he's doing that, but I'm sure some fans appreciate this for one reason or another. However, this heavily conflicts with information we've heard for multiple characters, too many to think that two more slots will be enough to match up with what we've heard, and some of this info is incredibly damning.

So, the way I see it, we have a few situations we could be in here, and I'll list them from what I personally think is least likely to most likely, starting with least likely.
  1. Sakurai is telling us the big fibberino, in the attempt to bring us 'back-down-to-earth' and not expecting anything more so that when it does happen we will explode all over again. I honestly see this as the least likely outcome. Sakurai may have gone back on his word before, but I can't recall a time he outright lied to us, especially in such a scenario like this. In this situation, it makes sense to only bring it up once and never mention it again no matter how far into development unless asked via interview, but going out of your way to mention it freely on multiple occasions just to setup an elaborate lie for fan excitement? Not only does that seem very unlike Sakurai, but Smash is a huge deal so it's incredibly unnecessary.

  2. Smash DLC will continue, but Sakurai will not be leading the charge. This scenario is one in which Sakurai takes a back seat from his position and Nintendo puts someone else in charge, thus continuing the DLC but without Sakurai at the helm of it. While Sakurai's column was very much about retirement and reflecting on his age, if anything his column gives off a 'I'm not done yet!' vibe, and I'm not sure Nintendo would want to replace Sakurai considering the impact that would have on the community as well as how well the DLC has been and how skilled Sakurai is at his job. I do see this as a more likely scenario than Sakurai outright lying to us though, as Nintendo may want to capitalize on more DLC money while Sakurai would rather not and Nintendo does be Nintendo and make weird decisions sometimes.

  3. I think these two are about as equally likely, so I'll list them as such. Please make no misunderstanding here between what I think will happen and what I want to happen, thank you.
    1. This really is the end of Ultimate's updates after CP 10 and 11, not even a bonus or anything, maybe some spirit events or something and then the doors close on this fantastic, world-shaking edition of Masahiro Sakurai's Wild Ride. For whatever reason, either all of what we've heard or most of it (meaning either none of the characters we've heard are in or only two of them are) is just wrong, whether it be leak bait or being compromised, negotiations fell out or the character was left on the cutting room floor because it just couldn't be done for one reason or another.

      Does this make sense according to our info? No, it doesn't. Does this make sense according to business sense? Not at all, but both Kimishima and Furakawa have allegedly been on record stating that they think if DLC goes too big people will not want to buy the base game knowing they have to spend so much money past that to have the game feel 'complete', despite how DLC is meant to appeal to the core audience who has already bought the game and not new players and yet still makes way more many the game sales. This means that they value some sort of balance being struck between those who have already purchased the game and those who haven't, despite how many copies of the game Steve sold and how outside of Steve, it's unlikely that the base game will sell too much drastically more as it's very clear that it's already reached critical mass. So on one hand, Furakawa sees all the money made from DLC, but on the other hand he doesn't want the DLC to become so overwhelming that it discourages new buyers into thinking they HAVE to spend another $50 on top of the $60 and thus they choose another game instead.

    2. This is the end for Ultimate, but not the end of Smash on the Switch. Geno Bros, I give you something I've mentioned before, which is the idea of a Smash Ultimate Deluxe. Capcom has been doing this with Street Fighter before DLC was even a possibility, but the most recent examples are with SF4 and SFV: both of these games have lots of DLC, but there are also multiple versions of the game you can buy that come with certain amounts of DLC in that base package. This is a very good way of making the game and all of it's extensive DLC content and updates accessible to someone who just decided to pick up the game now while not screwing over your previous consumers: both people have the same game, it's just all in one package for someone who got in there late...well, and there is a good chance they paid a good share less than the person who bought the DLC new and the base game, but you got to appeal to new customers somehow. NetherRealm Studios has been doing this since I believe the first Injustice if not since the MK9. I would be okay if this was the route taken, but unfortunately I think it will go something more like this...

      Marvel vs Capcom 3 was a very long-awaited sequel to the classic Marvel vs Capcom 2, eleven or so years in the making. It released in February of 2011...and Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 released in November of the same year. I think you can already get an idea of the issues here, but I'll dive deeper for those of you who don't know.

      So Capcom, whether it was due to stupidity or because of Marvel/Disney being a pain, made the decision to release UMvC3 as a stand-alone game and not give any DLC updates to OG MvC3. Upon release, the essentially killed the community for OG MvC3 and forced you to spend another $60+ on a brand new game to keep playing. Sure, it had a lot of updates and characters people really wanted (including myself with Ghost Rider) but it was still forcing people who already paid for their game to buy it again to keep playing without giving an option to do an online update, perhaps at even a lower cost. I remember there being a fair share of upset fans much like I was and talking with them and there were talks of a boycott (although I cannot say it would have gotten anywhere and clearly the game did well so...yeah) but then all the new characters leaked and that was pretty much all she wrote as most of them were someone somebody wanted.

      I see a future where we get something Ultimate Deluxe, which has all the previous DLC, and new/returning modes and ever more fun stuff as well as 6-8 new characters...but it's exclusive to the Switch Pro and you have to pay $60 for the new game, screwing over all of the fans who already bought the previous game and all of it's DLC.

At this point, it's a lesser of two evils situation, as far as I'm concerned: either it wholly ends here in the coming months, or we get more but at the cost of healthy consumerism practice.
Have you ever stopped to consider all the things you've heard have simply been wrong, or people pretending to be legit having false info(Like Loz18 during the base game)?


Like, let's assume that this is the end of the DLC, no bonus fighter, no Deluxe Ultimate, nothing in the future, if that's the case, then yeah, that's the only logical answer.


To me, the most damning thing is that Sakurai's quitting his Famitsu column this year, the same year as the 2nd Fighter's Pass ends, something he's done for 18+ years and used to talk about Smash extensibly in the past. To me, it seems like Sakurai's closing shop, hell, he's even, albeit jokingly, talked about retiring on his clarification for the Famistu article saying he's not gonna "Retire....yet." He's talked about retiring in the past, but he's never done something as drastic as stopping his nearly 20 year column.


I'd love a Smash Deluxe, but sometimes, it's best to just face the music.


I think a bonus fighter is very likely, but if CP11 rolls around and he says "That's it!", well... that's it.
 
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ForsakenM

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,984
Have you ever stopped to consider all the things you've heard have simply been wrong, or people pretending to be legit having false info(Like Loz18 during the base game)?


Like, let's assume that this is the end of the DLC, no bonus fighter, no Deluxe Ultimate, nothing in the future, if that's the case, then yeah, that's the only logical answer.


To me, the most damning thing is that Sakurai's quitting his Famitsu column this year, the same year as the 2nd Fighter's Pass ends, something he's done for 18+ years and used to talk about Smash extensibly in the past. To me, it seems like Sakurai's closing shop, hell, he's even, albeit jokingly, talked about retiring on his clarification for the Famistu article saying he's not gonna "Retire....yet." He's talked about retiring in the past, but he's never done something as drastic as stopping his nearly 20 year column.


I'd love a Smash Deluxe, but sometimes, it's best to just face the music.
The only music I'm facing is all the SMRPG tracks getting into Smash with Geno.
 

Shroob

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The only music I'm facing is all the SMRPG tracks getting into Smash with Geno.
Which would be great, I love SMRPG's music.


But as it stands right now, and looking at the tangible evidence before us, "2 fighters, and maybe a bonus, maybe" seems like the most logical outcome from all this.



The man hasn't stopped since March saying how "2 more and done", there was the website leak that "may" mean 1 more, and the Famitsu column is ending the same year as FP2 is. To me, this sounds like he's winding things down.
 

ForsakenM

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Messages
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Which would be great, I love SMRPG's music.


But as it stands right now, and looking at the tangible evidence before us, "2 fighters, and maybe a bonus, maybe" seems like the most logical outcome from all this.



The man hasn't stopped since March saying how "2 more and done", there was the website leak that "may" mean 1 more, and the Famitsu column is ending the same year as FP2 is. To me, this sounds like he's winding things down.
Sakurai ending his Famitsu column and the future of Ultimate are not mutually inclusive, I hope you can realize that.

Also, I may not have directly said 'if this is truly the end of all content for Ultimate than what we heard was wrong' but that was because...well, I felt it was clear enough as is. Obviously, if we heard there is more, and there ends up not being more, then what we heard was wrong. Considering the default and the obvious as a possibility is pointless to me and it needs no discussion, especially since the majority of the fan base only discusses that exact thing. It also leads to little actual discussion, and what would I have to add other than just another cog saying 'Yeah this is definitely the end guys.'

That would be like us talking about a game and considering ways to approach it via tactics and you piping in and saying we should consider the approach that the manual in the game's box says. Sure, we could consider it, but we already have and there isn't much there so we are attempting to elevate beyond that and consider other possibilities that are just flat out more interesting, regardless of how valid they are in terms of ways to play the game effectively, striving towards tactics that are extremely valid.

In other words, when I'm coming up with scenarios for the future of Ultimate and factoring in everything I've heard and learned and weeding out what makes sense and what doesn't, the simple and easy 'This is the end and everything we've heard is wrong' that leads to no further discussion is considered and thrown out so fast that it's barely a thought so that I can move onto scenarios that require actual thought instead of being a basic 'Well, duh' scenario. The fact that the majority of this community deems it necessary to focus solely on that possibility and not be more open towards others stifles actual conversation leading to horrid repeats in conversation and eventually talking about nothing, essentially. Saying things like 'you need to face the music' or 'read the writing on the wall' implies that you considering your stance the only correct one and are demanding that I do the same when in reality there are multiple possibilities with various levels of probability and yours is in fact not guaranteed to be the correct one.

I've already changed my stance based on events and information a number of times, and most recently has been the change from 'more DLC is 100% happening but could happen in either the same form or a different one' that was when Sakurai made his 'last two chances for this style of presentation' statement at the end of the Pyra/Mythra Presentation to 'I'm no longer extremely confident in more DLC but an upgraded port for the Switch Pro still has a high possibility' after Sakurai's very recent Famitsu column and him going out of his way to again say the DLC ends with CP11. I also think this kills any chance of a bonus character entirely (which is something a lot of my friends disagree with me on), and the characters I think are most likely to be the last two CPs conflicts with some of my friends as well.

Also, while there are many good things for Geno being one of the last two, I'm logically conflicted with that conclusion: the logical side of me says that Geno COULD be one of them but isn't, but the optimist in me pushes me past that into believing he will be in regardless. Thus, realistically I think other characters have a better shot than he does, but I'll still root and hope for my blue puppet boi because it could still happen and I'd rather root for him all the way than give up like some limp wet noodle.

I think people in the Smash community are more concerned with being right than they are for rooting for who they want and accepting the results in realistic terms. Who cares if you end up being wrong? It's part of life and the internet is mostly anonymous, so go ahead and go nuts go ape****. At least you gave it your all and kept up your support until the end, right?
 

Shroob

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Sakurai ending his Famitsu column and the future of Ultimate are not mutually inclusive, I hope you can realize that.

Also, I may not have directly said 'if this is truly the end of all content for Ultimate than what we heard was wrong' but that was because...well, I felt it was clear enough as is. Obviously, if we heard there is more, and there ends up not being more, then what we heard was wrong. Considering the default and the obvious as a possibility is pointless to me and it needs no discussion, especially since the majority of the fan base only discusses that exact thing. It also leads to little actual discussion, and what would I have to add other than just another cog saying 'Yeah this is definitely the end guys.'

That would be like us talking about a game and considering ways to approach it via tactics and you piping in and saying we should consider the approach that the manual in the game's box says. Sure, we could consider it, but we already have and there isn't much there so we are attempting to elevate beyond that and consider other possibilities that are just flat out more interesting, regardless of how valid they are in terms of ways to play the game effectively, striving towards tactics that are extremely valid.

In other words, when I'm coming up with scenarios for the future of Ultimate and factoring in everything I've heard and learned and weeding out what makes sense and what doesn't, the simple and easy 'This is the end and everything we've heard is wrong' that leads to no further discussion is considered and thrown out so fast that it's barely a thought so that I can move onto scenarios that require actual thought instead of being a basic 'Well, duh' scenario. The fact that the majority of this community deems it necessary to focus solely on that possibility and not be more open towards others stifles actual conversation leading to horrid repeats in conversation and eventually talking about nothing, essentially. Saying things like 'you need to face the music' or 'read the writing on the wall' implies that you considering your stance the only correct one and are demanding that I do the same when in reality there are multiple possibilities with various levels of probability and yours is in fact not guaranteed to be the correct one.

I've already changed my stance based on events and information a number of times, and most recently has been the change from 'more DLC is 100% happening but could happen in either the same form or a different one' that was when Sakurai made his 'last two chances for this style of presentation' statement at the end of the Pyra/Mythra Presentation to 'I'm no longer extremely confident in more DLC but an upgraded port for the Switch Pro still has a high possibility' after Sakurai's very recent Famitsu column and him going out of his way to again say the DLC ends with CP11. I also think this kills any chance of a bonus character entirely (which is something a lot of my friends disagree with me on), and the characters I think are most likely to be the last two CPs conflicts with some of my friends as well.

Also, while there are many good things for Geno being one of the last two, I'm logically conflicted with that conclusion: the logical side of me says that Geno COULD be one of them but isn't, but the optimist in me pushes me past that into believing he will be in regardless. Thus, realistically I think other characters have a better shot than he does, but I'll still root and hope for my blue puppet boi because it could still happen and I'd rather root for him all the way than give up like some limp wet noodle.

I think people in the Smash community are more concerned with being right than they are for rooting for who they want and accepting the results in realistic terms. Who cares if you end up being wrong? It's part of life and the internet is mostly anonymous, so go ahead and go nuts go ape****. At least you gave it your all and kept up your support until the end, right?
Yes, I do realize that, but he's ran that article for 18 years and always used it to go into details on Smash. The fact that he's stopping all of a sudden seems to imply that maybe, just maybe, he's starting to legitimately get exhausted by his own work habits and starting to cut back. The two have no direct connection, but it is very curious he's ending the article the exact same year FP2 ends, and how insistent he's been on this being it, even bringing it up in his article completely unprovoked.

If nothing else, I applaud you for such a quick heelturn in your stance that there was probably no more DLC coming. Up to a few weeks ago, you were convinced that more was 100% happening because "It doesn't make sense not to from a business standpoint", which, I actually agree with tbh, but Nintendo is Nintendo, and trying to fully understand Nintendo is like trying to punch through a boulder, it's not happening.


Regardless, I understand wanting to keep discussion alive for the future, but say if, E3 is a double whammy of reveals, then there's really nothing left to discuss aside from a potential DX Port, something we may not even see for some time, if at all, or the rumored bonus fighter. If anything, it feels like Sakurai's the one who wants to get this done and over with and move on with his life. He never had to hammer in that the 2nd Fighter's pass was the end, he could have been completely silent and let us go wild with speculation, but he did, and he hasn't stopped doing so. The fact he's said "2 more and done" in March, April, and May, multiple times per month mind you, really hammers in the "There's only 2 more, stop thinking more's coming" from him, so if anyone's trying to kill this mindset, it's Sakurai himself tbh.


Like, if the man himself is trying to beat it into people's skulls "There's only 2 left", can't really blame people for actually believing him when he won't stop talking about it. Sakurai himself is the one who never wants you to forget "There's only 2 left", he legit won't stop saying it every option he's able to.


This doesn't have anything to do with Geno's chances btw. I've never once brought him up or his potential for being one of the final 2. He's got as good a shot as any.
 
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Dan

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the logical side of me says that Geno COULD be one of them but isn't
So you finally admit it... I was a pessimist but apparently you're logical. :laugh:

Also, I'm not surprised Sakurai said this is the end of the DLC and you're still out here scrambling for reasons why that may not be the case. :rolleyes: I guess I'm just a fool to believe people and not assume everything's a lie. I just don't get why you're presenting so many alternatives.
 

S1itchey

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So you finally admit it... I was a pessimist but apparently you're logical. :laugh:

Also, I'm not surprised Sakurai said this is the end of the DLC and you're still out here scrambling for reasons why that may not be the case. :rolleyes: I guess I'm just a fool to believe people and not assume everything's a lie. I just don't get why you're presenting so many alternatives.
I'm just sad that ultimate had to end off on such a disappointing pass compared to the first one. Also I do fully belive geno is never coming to smash and the fact that geno couldn't make it in this time again will always be a massive hole in such an otherwise perfect game.
 

Shroob

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I'm just sad that ultimate had to end off on such a disappointing pass compared to the first one. Also I do fully belive geno is never coming to smash and the fact that geno couldn't make it in this time again will always be a massive hole in such an otherwise perfect game.
Eh, there's still 2 more characters.

Tbh, I think the 2nd pass is way more interesting than the first, the first was filled with characters that the fan base never talked about besides Banjo.

Granted, that's just my own subjective opinion, I admit.
 

Icewolff92

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Eh, there's still 2 more characters.

Tbh, I think the 2nd pass is way more interesting than the first, the first was filled with characters that the fan base never talked about besides Banjo.

Granted, that's just my own subjective opinion, I admit.
Same here. Am I disappointed that Geno will more than likely not get in? Yes, but I can´t deny that if we have to lose to any Square Enix character, I´m glad that it is to the Darth Vader of videogame villains.
 

volbound1700

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Same here. Am I disappointed that Geno will more than likely not get in? Yes, but I can´t deny that if we have to lose to any Square Enix character, I´m glad that it is to the Darth Vader of videogame villains.
Is it bad that I recently bought Final Fantasy 7 to see what the hype was about and I find it underwhelming? (I have played through Dragon Quest 11 and I find it better than FF7).
 
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Vector Victor

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While Nintendo and Sakurai are forced to say "2 characters" since that this is what has been publically announced (meaning that future content passed that COULD be possible but they can't refer to it as it hasn't been made official), the fact that Sakurai has repeatedly said that there are 2 left very strongly implies that there are indeed just two left. He could easily just mentioned it once or twice or even said it in a general tone like "end of the pass" or just "future characters." But since he has repeatedly said "2 characters" very well means that it's two characters and done. It's sad to see it end, and Ultimate is such an excellent fun game even years later is why it's sad to see it end. I'd be happy with even just echoes as a bonus.

The ironic thing is that DLC would appear to be a perfect department for a game developer near retirement to move onto in their last years. It has to be less work than a base game.
 

Icewolff92

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Is it bad that I recently bought Final Fantasy 7 to see what the hype was about and I find it underwhelming? (I have played through Dragon Quest 11 and I find it better than FF7).
Are you talking about the remake or first part of the "requel" as Maximillian Dood calls it
 

S1itchey

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Same here. Am I disappointed that Geno will more than likely not get in? Yes, but I can´t deny that if we have to lose to any Square Enix character, I´m glad that it is to the Darth Vader of videogame villains.
Well thats kinda where we differ. I for one am very disappointed that geno had to lose to sephiroth. I don't really care about sephiroth at all and I don't even think he's fun to play as. The only square character I really would have been ok with over geno is balck mage. I'm also just upset that the only ff representation in smash is just for 7. At least black mage could have brought from all over the franchise since he's appeared in multiple games. Overall so far pass 2 has been really disappointing to me compared to pass 1. 2 lame first parties, my most wanted character was deconfirmed and Steve who is the only character I actually kind of like.
 

Loliko YnT

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On one hand , a third pass would still sell... In fact , they could release fighters until the end of the Switch's life span and people would buy it ; people love Smash additions.

On the other hand... I genuinely think Sakurai just want to move on to something else. He's been the lead developper for Smash for so long , he developped Sm4sh and Ult back to back.
When I saw his work with KI:U , I wanted to see more of what he could do. Not even with Kid Icarus in particular , but just as a game dev.

---

What I'm more worried about will be the lack of balance patches and online fixes in the future... While the competitive scene is very dedicated (Sm4sh still got an EVO spot 2 years after Bayonetta wrecked the metagame) , I feel like people may grow frustrated of the game if they abandon support after the last DLC.
 

volbound1700

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Well thats kinda where we differ. I for one am very disappointed that geno had to lose to sephiroth. I don't really care about sephiroth at all and I don't even think he's fun to play as. The only square character I really would have been ok with over geno is balck mage. I'm also just upset that the only ff representation in smash is just for 7. At least black mage could have brought from all over the franchise since he's appeared in multiple games. Overall so far pass 2 has been really disappointing to me compared to pass 1. 2 lame first parties, my most wanted character was deconfirmed and Steve who is the only character I actually kind of like.
I was slightly upset by Seph as well. Square-Enix has so many franchises to go off of and it would have been nice to get a new franchise or even more FF representation outside of 7. However, Cloud and the two songs felt incomplete and I will say Seph + the content added did complete FF7. My dislike for FF7 is mostly taste and I cannot deny the cultural phenomenon it was, especially in Japan. I don't think that Seph is undeserving but I do wish we could have gotten another franchise. Byleth and Pyra/Mythra were even worse letdown IMOs.

The best Square-Enix addition instead of Seph would have actually been Lara Croft IMO. The character is an icon.
 
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Shroob

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On one hand , a third pass would still sell... In fact , they could release fighters until the end of the Switch's life span and people would buy it ; people love Smash additions.

On the other hand... I genuinely think Sakurai just want to move on to something else. He's been the lead developper for Smash for so long , he developped Sm4sh and Ult back to back.
When I saw his work with KI:U , I wanted to see more of what he could do. Not even with Kid Icarus in particular , but just as a game dev.

---

What I'm more worried about will be the lack of balance patches and online fixes in the future... While the competitive scene is very dedicated (Sm4sh still got an EVO spot 2 years after Bayonetta wrecked the metagame) , I feel like people may grow frustrated of the game if they abandon support after the last DLC.
Pretty sure that even after DLC ends, he's still going to stick around for balance patches, in fact I'm like 99% sure he said as such that he would, just that actual new content was done after these last 2.
 

Geno Boost

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On one hand , a third pass would still sell... In fact , they could release fighters until the end of the Switch's life span and people would buy it ; people love Smash additions.

On the other hand... I genuinely think Sakurai just want to move on to something else. He's been the lead developper for Smash for so long , he developped Sm4sh and Ult back to back.
When I saw his work with KI:U , I wanted to see more of what he could do. Not even with Kid Icarus in particular , but just as a game dev.

---

What I'm more worried about will be the lack of balance patches and online fixes in the future... While the competitive scene is very dedicated (Sm4sh still got an EVO spot 2 years after Bayonetta wrecked the metagame) , I feel like people may grow frustrated of the game if they abandon support after the last DLC.
i think Sakurai can move on and leave it to namco for future smash DLC i am pretty they could handle it on their own after all they made tekken and soul calibur
 

Icewolff92

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It looks like the original based on the graphics. I got it off the online store for the Switch.
I can admitt that the original hasn´t aged that well. But when it came out, it was one of the most impressive games to date in tech and story.

Well thats kinda where we differ. I for one am very disappointed that geno had to lose to sephiroth. I don't really care about sephiroth at all and I don't even think he's fun to play as. The only square character I really would have been ok with over geno is balck mage. I'm also just upset that the only ff representation in smash is just for 7. At least black mage could have brought from all over the franchise since he's appeared in multiple games. Overall so far pass 2 has been really disappointing to me compared to pass 1. 2 lame first parties, my most wanted character was deconfirmed and Steve who is the only character I actually kind of like.
Here is the reason why 7 is the only one represented. It´s is still the most iconic Final Fantasy game, and the Japanese player base (which is the main audience for Nintendo, always have, always will) eats everything up that is Cloud vs Sepiroth. You can talk with a casual video game player, and ask who Sepiroth is, and 9/10 they more than likely know who he is even though they have never played the game. Heck, I showed the trailer for a couple of friends that are just casual videogame players who mostly stick with Mario Kart the trailer for Sepiroth and they knew within the first one of the one-winged angel theme that it was Sepiroth. His theme song is like the imperial march from Star Wars or Superman theme from Richard Donners Superman movie from 1978. Even if you haven´t seen the movie, you have most likely heard those themes.
 
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Shroob

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I can admitt that the original hasn´t aged that well. But when it came out, it was one of the most impressive games to date in tech and story.



Here is the reason why 7 is the only one represented. It´s is still the most iconic Final Fantasy game, and the Japanese player base (which is the main audience for Nintendo, always have, always will) eats everything up that is Cloud vs Sepiroth. You can talk with a casual video game player, and ask who Sepiroth is, and 9/10 they are more than likely who he is even though they have never played the game. Heck, I showed the trailer for a couple of friends that are just casual videogame players who mostly stick with Mario Kart the trailer for Sepiroth and they knew within the first one of the one-winged angel theme that it was Sepiroth. His theme song is like the imperial march from Star Wars or Superman theme from Richard Donners Superman movie from 1978. Even if you haven´t seen the movie, you have most likely heard those themes.
You hit the nail on the head right there for me.


I've never played a Final Fantasy game before in my life, so I can't tell a Dancing Mad from a Battle on the Bridge, but when that initial drumbeat, the literal first one hit, I was like "Oh **** it's Sephiroth."


A character whose themesong is so iconic that you just know who they are from the literal first note is definitely a rare sight.
 

volbound1700

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You hit the nail on the head right there for me.


I've never played a Final Fantasy game before in my life, so I can't tell a Dancing Mad from a Battle on the Bridge, but when that initial drumbeat, the literal first one hit, I was like "Oh **** it's Sephiroth."


A character whose themesong is so iconic that you just know who they are from the literal first note is definitely a rare sight.
I feel bad lol because I do not recognize Seph that well. I did know Cloud though and was hyped about him being added in Smash 4 even though I wasn't a big FF7 fan. I do like the FF series and have played 1 & 2 (NES and Gameboy). I have also played the original Kingdom Hearts and Cloud is in that. However, I did not know much about Sephiroth. To me, he was that guy with the oversized (and unrealistic) Samurai sword.

I still plan to play through FF7 to see what the hype is about. I may end up liking it in the long run. One thing that I don't like so far is how combat works in it. You have that time bar that runs and you cannot pick your move until it is full. It kind of gets annoying at times. I was also never a huge fan of invisible fights emerging, I like DQ11 better where you can see the opponents on the main map and try to dodge them if you want. (Granted the original FF had the invisible enemy fights as well).

As I stated, I would have preferred a new franchise but I don't see Seph as a bad addition and I can see why Nintendo did it. It did complete FF7 content which was underrepresented in Base Game. Still, I am surprised we didn't get at least themes and spirits from other Final Fantasy games.
 

Icewolff92

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You hit the nail on the head right there for me.


I've never played a Final Fantasy game before in my life, so I can't tell a Dancing Mad from a Battle on the Bridge, but when that initial drumbeat, the literal first one hit, I was like "Oh **** it's Sephiroth."


A character whose themesong is so iconic that you just know who they are from the literal first note is definitely a rare sight.
I remember when they showed the trailer on VGA. It was like 1 am here in Sweden and I was quite surprised. Granted, I was someone that believed that Sepiroth had a chance, which people called me crazy for... but I started to believe it less the further we got along prior to the reveal. Knowing that he was my sis most (and only) wanted, I was this close to call her and wake her up 😆 She screamed so much joy when I show her the trailer the next day to the point that I was afraid the neighbors would wonder what the heck was going on.... so you could call his inclusion a double-edged sword for me if you know what I mean. She got disappointed when they showed the Geno trailer even though she don't care on a "personal level" about SMRPG so it wasn´t a "ha-ha my got in but not yours" from her
 
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S1itchey

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I can admitt that the original hasn´t aged that well. But when it came out, it was one of the most impressive games to date in tech and story.



Here is the reason why 7 is the only one represented. It´s is still the most iconic Final Fantasy game, and the Japanese player base (which is the main audience for Nintendo, always have, always will) eats everything up that is Cloud vs Sepiroth. You can talk with a casual video game player, and ask who Sepiroth is, and 9/10 they more than likely know who he is even though they have never played the game. Heck, I showed the trailer for a couple of friends that are just casual videogame players who mostly stick with Mario Kart the trailer for Sepiroth and they knew within the first one of the one-winged angel theme that it was Sepiroth. His theme song is like the imperial march from Star Wars or Superman theme from Richard Donners Superman movie from 1978. Even if you haven´t seen the movie, you have most likely heard those themes.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why he was put in the game but despite his fame I will never care about him at all and I will always be upset that he made it in over geno.
 

Dan

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I'm just sad that ultimate had to end off on such a disappointing pass compared to the first one. Also I do fully belive geno is never coming to smash and the fact that geno couldn't make it in this time again will always be a massive hole in such an otherwise perfect game.
Yeah, I was sort of in the PapaGenos camp where I felt the deluxe costume was made specifically for him, so it was truly bizarre to get so many dream requests fulfilled yet be slapped in the face for Geno, though I do believe his chances in a future installment are as good as ever.

It looks like the original based on the graphics. I got it off the online store for the Switch.
I think a lot of people have fondness for the early CGI and blocky characters; that's certainly one of the reasons I love it so much.

I still plan to play through FF7 to see what the hype is about. I may end up liking it in the long run. One thing that I don't like so far is how combat works in it. You have that time bar that runs and you cannot pick your move until it is full. It kind of gets annoying at times. I was also never a huge fan of invisible fights emerging, I like DQ11 better where you can see the opponents on the main map and try to dodge them if you want. (Granted the original FF had the invisible enemy fights as well).
The remake has live combat more akin to Kingdom Hearts and no invisible encounters.
 
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Firox

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I'll just say this:

Sakurai is kind of infamous for going back on his word. He's done it multiple times before. That said, after all the times he's said that this pass will be the definitive end of Ultimate DLC, if he ends up breaking his word this time, I'll have no choice but to conclude that his word means absolutely ****. That's not to say that we will or won't possibly get more DLC in some way, shape or form, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.
 
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