Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[EricTheGamerman]

Sakurai mentioned that Cloud almost didn't make the cut to be in Smash Bros Ultimate, still only got 2 songs from Final Fantasy. Getting all that stuff for Dragon Quest must have been a nightmare considering they're owned by three different companies, and seeing super strict Dragon Quest music is we're probable going to get 4 music track at most. After all of that Geno isn't going to be handed over to become a Fighter. Instead they're going to sell the Mii Costume again because Sakurai believes that everyone feels like they're playing the actual character that way despite that fact that barely any feels that way.

Cloud has never actually been officially outed as a problem child for Sakurai. There's no evidence to corroborate Cloud almost not making it in to Smash Ultimate. There's also plenty of evidence of extreme issues existing with the rights of music in particular for Final Fantasy being a headache to work with given that Square Enix don't actually own the rights to the music themselves. I'd say the sheer presence of this much Dragon Quest content more or less proves the opposite of how much of a headache things were. We literally got content from every mainline Dragon Quest game. That sort of thing doesn't support a "difficult Square Enix narrative" at all. In fact, quite the opposite.

I don't think Sakurai actually expects people to think that they're playing like the character. I think he believes that a Mii costume is one of the best alternatives he can provide to fans when certain characters aren't prioritized in production and don't make the cut as a fighter. It's either that or an assist trophy for those who don't make it in, so they really are the best alternatives. Not every character gets the privilege of making it playable, and I really do think Sakurai wants to give those fans something.

That the key thing, if Sakurai wants him. But after all if this I firmly believe that Sakurai doesn't want Geno at all. I know people are going to bring up quotes saying he does and he likes Geno, but name me a time where Sakurai say he doesn't like a character. He has to be shown as none bias, so he's never going to say something like "I'm never putting in a Kirby character from a game I never directed." So words are pointless, his actions are what matter. Sakurai gave out that Mii Costume for Smash 4 as a way to acknowledge the Geno fans, but in Ultimate he got the rights to use Geno and instead of making him a Fighter he turn him into a Spirit instead. Didn't even consider it, Piranha Plant was decided over Geno. So if he had the rights the only person stopping him would've been Sakurai himself. Now with The Hero in the game shows that Sakurai doesn't want Geno in the game. In his mind Sakurai can call this game Super Smash Bros Ultimate without Geno's inclusion. This might sound negative, but Sakurai had opportunity to make Geno playable in the base game but chose not to.

Citation needed on the bold part.

Also, Ultimate is only the English name for the hundredth time and does not indicate what Sakurai believes about the game or not. The Japanese Special fits the game much better as that's what it is to Sakurai and it's made to represent the fact he brought all the characters and almost all the stages back first and foremost, not the quality of the newcomers.

And, yes, I will bring up Sakurai's quotes because the man literally said he thought Geno would work as a Smash character and that he wanted to put him in during the Brawl era. You don't say something casually like that about an otherwise "irrelevant and unknown character" (I'm saying this part in quotations for effect) unless you have some interest in them and their fan base. Sakurai himself has literally said he likes Geno, and trying to prove otherwise isn't going to fly because there's no proof he doesn't, only proof that he has an interest in the character.

 

[wynn728]

Cloud has never actually been officially outed as a problem child for Sakurai. There's no evidence to corroborate Cloud almost not making it in to Smash Ultimate. There's also plenty of evidence of extreme issues existing with the rights of music in particular for Final Fantasy being a headache to work with given that Square Enix don't actually own the rights to the music themselves. I'd say the sheer presence of this much Dragon Quest content more or less proves the opposite of how much of a headache things were. We literally got content from every mainline Dragon Quest game. That sort of thing doesn't support a "difficult Square Enix narrative" at all. In fact, quite the opposite.

I don't think Sakurai actually expects people to think that they're playing like the character. I think he believes that a Mii costume is one of the best alternatives he can provide to fans when certain characters aren't prioritized in production and don't make the cut as a fighter. It's either that or an assist trophy for those who don't make it in, so they really are the best alternatives. Not every character gets the privilege of making it playable, and I really do think Sakurai wants to give those fans something.



Citation needed on the bold part.

Also, Ultimate is only the English name for the hundredth time and does not indicate what Sakurai believes about the game or not. The Japanese Special fits the game much better as that's what it is to Sakurai and it's made to represent the fact he brought all the characters and almost all the stages back first and foremost, not the quality of the newcomers.

And, yes, I will bring up Sakurai's quotes because the man literally said he thought Geno would work as a Smash character and that he wanted to put him in during the Brawl era. You don't say something casually like that about an otherwise "irrelevant and unknown character" (I'm saying this part in quotations for effect) unless you have some interest in them and their fan base. Sakurai himself has literally said he likes Geno, and trying to prove otherwise isn't going to fly because there's no proof he doesn't, only proof that he has an interest in the character.

How about the fact that there are no Final Fantasy VII Spirits in the game? How about the fact they couldn't use the original artwork for Cloud's Spirit?

No, Sakurai believes that people feel like they're playing as the character through Mii Costumes, he stated that when he revealed the Rex Mii Costume. And for the whole "Sakurai wants to give those fans something," the thing that he needs to realize is that Nothing can be better than Something. Had we not got the Isaac Assist Trophy people wouldn't have been disappointed and still be filled with excitement and support that he's possible, but now he's dead and we get all the jokes about how Piranha Plant was better than Isaac. People want Fighters, they don't want this half way in the middle crap. If Sakurai can't make it possible then he shouldn't do anything because the best alternative is still the an unpleasant outcome that barely make anyone happy.

As for Sakurai could've made Geno playable in the base game, well we see that they made a Geno Spirit. In order to do that you need to obtain the rights, so he went out to get Geno's rights and decides to make a png file instead of a fighter. He did that, that's on him. That was Sakurai's decision on what to do with Geno after negotiating for his rights. He could've done it instead of Piranha Plant, but he didn't. And from leakers we know that there will only be 1 Square Enix characters, so the ship has sailed. Sakurai had the opportunity but decided against it.

 

[GoodGrief741]

After what happened with Box theory I am content to simply go with predictions based on the Mii Costume theory.

I feel like Nintendo will be rather consistent with their bundling of new/former costumes with a fighter from that same company. In that case we are looking at a Capcom and Namco rep.

That Resident Evil skit felt somewhat ridiculous for what I believe is a remake and some ports? I love Resident Evil, so I am not complaining, but it felt... Extra. An odd spotlight to feature in my opinion. Not to mention RE is a major draw in my opinion. It's a really influential franchise.

My gut was 100% on Banjo-Kazooie and while not as strong a hunch, I am really feeling a RE rep as one of our DLC fighters.

Next is Namco. Which leaves me feeling underwhelmed with it's selection and I can't shake that feeling that Sakurai is too. HOWEVER, Tekken is arguably an S tier level game of history and influence for fighting games, so Heihachi (or any Tekken rep) would be my bet. Of course, Sakurai has to get over his hump of translating a 3D fighting character.

So far in the fighter pass we have the social simulation, JRPG, and platformer genres represented, so barring any (un)expected RPG bias from Sakurai's team, then we should be seeing more genre diversity for the pass as a whole.

RE covers survival horror, Tekken covers 3D fighting and reoccuring speculation picks from this cycle, Doomguy and Ryu, cover FPS and Hack&Slash respectively.

Although, to be blunt, what do Doomguy and Ryu really have going for them outside increased hype from just this cycle alone (due to appearences on early DLC leaks)?

Don't get me wrong, they're fantastic characters that I want, but are they serious contenders and if so, then on what possible evidence outside of sketch leaks? We could consider Crash and Dragonborn as just as likely, but they just haven't appeared in any leaks.

With all that said, I'm no longer sold on other RPG picks like Lloyd, Sora, and Monster Hunter. We got literally 6 or so JRPG protagonists in one character. That's enough this cycle. Let other genres shine.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Adding to EarlTamm's comments on Doomguy, Ryu Hayabusa became a big pick before his leaks (and was probably 'leaked' because of that rise in prevalence in the first place). As for why? Basicallu because of the Belmonts. People see Mega Man, Castlevania, and Ninja Gaiden as a trifecta of classics on the NES, and Ryu's the missing piece there.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Hey, everyone! Yeah... I’m back.

I went to E3 today, and whoa, it was a blast! I saw some guy with a Geno shirt there! I saw his shirt for only about a second, but unfortuntaley, he walked pretty fast and I lost sight of him... I wanted to tell him I loved his shirt.

Now, about the Direct today... BANJO!!!!! I am so happy Banjo and Kazooie are in now! The way they did the reveal trailer with Banjo and Kazooie was amazing; the five together bringing back Rare’s old memories! Donkey Kong Country and Banjo-Kazooie collide. Sakurai and his team respecting Rare’s old days with Nintendo with that trailer, and it was done in such a brilliant way and form! And the final scene with Banjo and Kazooie in the front middle, while Nintendo’s characters and the third-party characters are in the background! WOW, that part was just absolutely astonishing. Banjo and Kazooie are back with their family now! It just feels so good to have Banjo and Kazooie back on a Nintendo console now.

 

[EarlTamm]

I guess it's kinda always insinuated with the acknowledgment of the Rare, but I am shocked I haven't seen anyone point out the fact that the first game Banjo appeared in was Diddy Kong Racing as a selectable racer. That trailer was not only a reunion of Rare, but Banjo's reunion with the franchise that created him, even if it was seemingly minor at the time.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

I guess it's kinda always insinuated with the acknowledgment of the Rare, but I am shocked I haven't seen anyone point out the fact that the first game Banjo appeared in was Diddy Kong Racing as a selectable racer. That trailer was not only a reunion of Rare, but Banjo's reunion with the franchise that created him, even if it was seemingly minor at the time.

Diddy Kong racing was a heck of a game to boot. It was nice to have that little rare reunion.

 

[EarlTamm]

Diddy Kong racing was a heck of a game to boot. It was nice to have that little rare reunion.

I will say this about DKR, it's weird seeing Conker before he became... well, Conker.

What a different reunion that would be.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Spoiler

How about the fact that there are no Final Fantasy VII Spirits in the game? How about the fact they couldn't use the original artwork for Cloud's Spirit?

Again, Cloud may have been more expensive than others just for his content because of the aforementioned Final Fantasy specific issues we've heard about through other venues. If you're paying a larger sum of money to include Cloud in the base game, why bother with all the extraneous stuff and working through the rights of Final Fantasy content when Spirits are absolutely the least important part of the game? I appreciate the effort that they put into Spirits, but I sure as hell don't care about them including more. I'm sure there was some thought process not too far removed from that.

No, Sakurai believes that people feel like they're playing as the character through Mii Costumes, he stated that when he revealed the Rex Mii Costume. And for the whole "Sakurai wants to give those fans something," the thing that he needs to realize is that Nothing can be better than Something. Had we not got the Isaac Assist Trophy people wouldn't have been disappointed and still be filled with excitement and support that he's possible, but now he's dead and we get all the jokes about how Piranha Plant was better than Isaac. People want Fighters, they don't want this half way in the middle crap. If Sakurai can't make it possible then he shouldn't do anything because the best alternative is still the an unpleasant outcome that barely make anyone happy.

I mean, those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive ways to look at Mii fighter costumes. It's possible for them to both serve as "something" to the fans who would like to see their characters acknowledged (I mean, I know a lot of Geno fans were ecstatic to even get a mention) and also to sort of approximate a character that doesn't get in.

The parts I've marked in bold are also completely subjective statements that a lot of people will disagree with you on. The alternative is acknowledging a character has a big enough legacy to be included in Smash in any form. Not every character is going to make it in to Smash, and there needs to be side content and roles for those characters. I'm sure Yacht Club Games are ****ing ecstatic that Shovel Knight got in as an Assist Trophy and Wayforward have to be similarly so for Shantae as a Spirit. It's not playable status, but those are two key examples of IPs becoming a big enough to see inclusion in Smash. Legacy can be represented in Smash in a myriad of ways not exclusive to playable characters. Them not being in the game is actually the worst outcome because none of the fans are happy. If Isaac isn't an assist trophy in Ultimate's base game, and then also does not become playable through DLC, then there's just no Isaac in the game and Golden Sun fans feel the weight of their series being completely ignored and unacknowledged by Sakurai. We may have been unhappy after Isaac seemed so likely in the leadup to Ultimate's release, but you can bet most Isaac fans were ecstatic to see him at least return in proper fashion as an assist trophy. At least some fans are allowed to be happy with the alternative.

As for Sakurai could've made Geno playable in the base game, well we see that they made a Geno Spirit. In order to do that you need to obtain the rights, so he went out to get Geno's rights and decides to make a png file instead of a fighter. He did that, that's on him. That was Sakurai's decision on what to do with Geno after negotiating for his rights. He could've done it instead of Piranha Plant, but he didn't. And from leakers we know that there will only be 1 Square Enix characters, so the ship has sailed. Sakurai had the opportunity but decided against it.

Geno's Spirit tells us nothing about his ability to include him as a playable fighter. Maybe Square Enix said yes to Spirit only. Maybe Nintendo put more pressure on him to include other choices. Maybe he wanted to and didn't have enough time. We only know the agreement went as far as the Spirit. There's nothing more you can really extrapolate from that other than Square were willing to provide that. We don't know anything specific about the negotiations surrounding Geno and Smash Ultimate. You don't obtain the rights for something wholesale like that, you obtain them for a specific purpose and the one providing the license has to agree to what you're trying to do. Or maybe he just decided to work on Geno later. Or maybe he was more focused on getting Cloud in the base since he needed him for "Everyone is Here." There's way too much unknown for you to know he decided Geno's fate was just another PNG for no reason or out of dislike or whatever.

There's similarly nothing to indicate that we would have gotten Geno in the event that we didn't get Piranha Plant. That's just now how things work. Especially when one's a third party with far more red tape than someone much more easily accessible to Sakurai as a first party Mario rep. And again, the man should be able to include some of his own passion projects and ideas into Smash since he's the director and creator. It's his series to do with as he pleases at the end of the day (with Nintendo's permission and possibly occasionally guiding hand to be fair), not ours. And we don't know anything about Fighters 4 or 5 right now. Nobody has mentioned anything yet, and again, there's zero proof of there not being two Square Enix characters in the Fighter's Pass even if it potentially follows some logic. The leakers didn't quite realize that we were getting The Hero in the form we did, so they've all certainly missed a little bit there and can miss again.

So once again, you're going to need a citation and a better argument to this whole "Sakurai had the opportunity, but decided against it" comment regarding Geno's inclusion in Smash.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

I guess it's kinda always insinuated with the acknowledgment of the Rare, but I am shocked I haven't seen anyone point out the fact that the first game Banjo appeared in was Diddy Kong Racing as a selectable racer. That trailer was not only a reunion of Rare, but Banjo's reunion with the franchise that created him, even if it was seemingly minor at the time.

Pretty cool how both Banjo and Conker first appeared in Diddy Kong Racing and ended up starting their own careers.

What a unique way to start a series.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I will say this about DKR, it's weird seeing Conker before he became... well, Conker.

What a different reunion that would be.

It'd be an amazing reunion to watch and Conker would probably hate them all.

Plus, if Conker gets in Smash, than we probably need to bump up the rating to M and then we can get a Doom Slayer without any issues too lol. I'm all down for M-rated Smash if it's opens the doors even more to characters haha.

 

[EarlTamm]

Pretty cool how both Banjo and Conker first appeared in Diddy Kong Racing and ended up starting their own careers.

What a unique way to start a series.

Yeah, it strangly reminds me of what many shared universe stories do nowadays.

It'd be an amazing reunion to watch and Conker would probably hate them all.

Plus, if Conker gets in Smash, than we probably need to bump up the rating to M and then we can get a Doom Slayer without any issues too lol. I'm all down for M-rated Smash if it's opens the doors even more to characters haha.

I almost get the feeling that they would do fake surprise reveal a third time, except this time Conker uses it as a distraction to pull some shenanigans. And I don't think there would be a rating bump, as most of Conker's M tone(At least when it comes to him as a character) comes from his crassness, which could easily be toned down.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Yeah, it strangly reminds me of what many shared universe stories do nowadays.

I almost get the feeling that they would do fake surprise reveal a third time, except this time Conker uses it as a distraction to pull some shenanigans. And I don't think there would be a rating bump, as most of Conker's M tone(At least when it comes to him as a character) comes from his crassness, which could easily be toned down.

Yeah, I guess if we managed to tone down Bayonetta enough to fit in Smash, Conker wouldn't be a problem at all... but at the same time, if Conker is coming back, I want him back in all of his completely crass humor and sassy cursing haha. (I don't actually believe Conker would be impossible to tone down or that would be a problem, I just think a M-rated Smash would be hilarious and potentially open some very weird doors).

 

[ForsakenM]

....... Toby Fox?
*first three notes of megalovania*

Not to be rude, but with these three reveals so far, I doubt we will get a single indie character.

Way too many big picks left from First and Third Party before we could even begin thinking about indie reps, and even then Undertale doesn't really reach the top of the list as I believe Shantae would be in that spot.

I mean think about it: the indie character with the most support that had a huge arsenal and was very easy to transfer over to Smash made it as an Assist Trophy, and really all the characters in Undertale would work better as Assist Trophies or Stage Hazards much better due to the nature of the game's basic battle mechanics.

Then when you add in the fact that being part of a AAA game kinda takes away the indie aspect and is kinda against the core ideal of indies, it really just doesn't make sense when there are plenty of smaller fighting game titles that are doing their best to feature these characters.

Not trying to hate, I'm just pointing out that indies are just barely a step above non-video game characters in terms of possibility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler

HOOO boy, let's take these one by one, shall we?

How about the fact that there are no Final Fantasy VII Spirits in the game? How about the fact they couldn't use the original artwork for Cloud's Spirit?

Well there are actually, but we get what you mean. Rights to works can be really tricky, and on top of that Japanese culture is a lot different than ours. I mean, we just learned mere months ago the issues that come up for just wanting music from FF7 and Dragon Quest, so who's to say that issues with other companies or individuals didn't come up to prevent this from happening? It doesn't just have to be "Square is unreasonable" even though that is possible. I mean, look at their E3 Presentation: they killed it hard and it's arguably the best one of them all...though it's hard to lose when you open with as much FF7Remake as they did.

No, Sakurai believes that people feel like they're playing as the character through Mii Costumes, he stated that when he revealed the Rex Mii Costume. And for the whole "Sakurai wants to give those fans something," the thing that he needs to realize is that Nothing can be better than Something. Had we not got the Isaac Assist Trophy people wouldn't have been disappointed and still be filled with excitement and support that he's possible, but now he's dead and we get all the jokes about how Piranha Plant was better than Isaac. People want Fighters, they don't want this half way in the middle crap. If Sakurai can't make it possible then he shouldn't do anything because the best alternative is still the an unpleasant outcome that barely make anyone happy.

Mmm...you know how people are saying that some Smash fans were 'entitled' because they didn't want to buy the game because they didn't like something about it? These people that were saying "Sakurai & Co worked their asses off for this game, you ungrateful swine! Quit being so entitled and buy it!" Yeah, they didn't know what entitled meant.

This is being entitled. It's like having a kid who throws a fit because they didn't get exactly what they wanted even though their parents did the best they could. Sure, we understand being disappointed, but to act like this is childish.

Allow me to explain: this isn't a situation where you are saying "This isn't worth my hard-earned money in my opinion" but rather "Screw you and your content in your own game, it wasn't what I think it should be and if you aren't going to do it by MY standards then don't do it at all." Not only is it rather childish and pretentious, but you are also speaking as if you are the voice of many when you are truly just the voice of you.

For example, what happened when Isaac's AT wasn't in Smash 4 but the music was? Isaac fans were sad about it. This means you are flat-out wrong about EVERY Isaac fan rather not having his AT in Ultimate if he can't be a character. This is YOUR opinion and it may be shared by others, but some are happy that the character and franchise are acknowledged even if they weren't realizable as a fighter. Sure, they wanted more, but they aren't ungrateful for what they ended up getting and rather turned to focus on the future in an attempt to realize their dream.

People who complain about ATs are just expressing disappointment for characters that they may or may not like that are not realizable as fighters according to the team that gives us badass characters to play as. If you get nothing at all then how do you know the character you love is even though about at all by the team? By the company? You don't. You have to simply assume they've been forgotten. But an AT or Mii Costume or Spirit? That means they remember them and they hear us but simply cannot manage to give us what we ask for at this time.

As for Sakurai could've made Geno playable in the base game, well we see that they made a Geno Spirit. In order to do that you need to obtain the rights, so he went out to get Geno's rights and decides to make a png file instead of a fighter. He did that, that's on him. That was Sakurai's decision on what to do with Geno after negotiating for his rights. He could've done it instead of Piranha Plant, but he didn't. And from leakers we know that there will only be 1 Square Enix characters, so the ship has sailed. Sakurai had the opportunity but decided against it.

Oof, did you speak with Sakurai himself? If so, can you tell us about way more important things, like who the last two character are and if he's been emotionally manipulated to crank out more DLC at the demand of Nintendo?

Yeah you have no idea what decisions he's made that he hasn't mentioned or revealed to us. You know just as much as we do, possibly less considering it seems you don't know about Sakurai being mostly hands-off on Spirits and only coming in occasionally to make critiques and suggestions. Seriously, Spirits had it's own team.

Also the leakers still don't know crap. Funnily enough, all of them were still mostly wrong: so far we see no female alts for The Hero and DQIII isn't even the main focus, rather DQXI with a few others to properly represent the franchise. Don't forget that not a single leaker called Joker which means that Nintendo is really trying to surprise us and is cracking down on any and all leaks as much as they can. So no, this random fan rule that 'There can only be one Square rep' is straight garbage. Nintendo can work with whoever they want and if they want more than one character from a single company, they can do that.

 

[ZelDan]

I don't think they really need to boost the rating for Doom Slayer, and I think they can add him without being gory. Just make his animations really aggressive and give them alot of "crunch." I think that would be a great way to tone him down while still getting across his pissed off and angry feel.

That said, I don't really care that much about Doomguy myself when it comes to Smash (I'd rather have Master Chief TBH), but I don't think Doomguy would really be that much of an issue to translate into Smash.

 

[Polarthief]

I guess it's kinda always insinuated with the acknowledgment of the Rare, but I am shocked I haven't seen anyone point out the fact that the first game Banjo appeared in was Diddy Kong Racing as a selectable racer. That trailer was not only a reunion of Rare, but Banjo's reunion with the franchise that created him, even if it was seemingly minor at the time.

That's been said a few times over in the B-K thread. I've even said a few times that Diddy's glad to have his buddy back.

I will say this about DKR, it's weird seeing Conker before he became... well, Conker.

What a different reunion that would be.

...yeah... Would be rather uh... interesting.
Like yeah we have some fairly adult characters (Snake and Bayo immediately come to mind), but none of them are that adult-crude level like Conker is.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't think they really need to boost the rating for Doom Slayer, and I think they can add him without being gory. Just make his animations really aggressive and give them alot of "crunch." I think that would be a great way to tone him down while still getting across his pissed off and angry feel.

That said, I don't really care that much about Doomguy myself when it comes to Smash (I'd rather have Master Chief TBH), but I don't think Doomguy would really be that much of an issue to translate into Smash.

I'd be really curious to see how far they could take the Doom Slayer with the E10+ rating. Like Ridley objectively gets away with a ton of stuff, as do a great many characters. But Doom Slayer would just need to be the absolute top of the pack in that regard since he mostly just gets **** done killing demons haha. Though, I agree, he definitely doesn't need to be gore-y in anyway to be realized in Smash. I've argued for him several times on SmashBoards and how he can easily fit in within the ratings, but again, I'd be super curious to see what Sakurai what let him get away with (I mean Bayonetta's in the game and Joker retains the All-Out attacks blood spurting out of characters with stars as a replacement and using something just straight up called a gun, so I'd imagine quite a bit haha).

And to be fair, I'd also rather see Master Chief because I have such a huge connection to Halo, but I'd love either of them to make it in honestly.

 

[EarlTamm]

That's been said a few times over in the B-K thread. I've even said a few times that Diddy's glad to have his buddy back.



...yeah... Would be rather uh... interesting.
Like yeah we have some fairly adult characters (Snake and Bayo immediately come to mind), but none of them are that adult-crude level like Conker is.

I imagine so when it comes to the B&K thread, I just haven't really checked up on it.

And yeah, Conker would be the crudest character in the game. Bayo is her own kind of M, but Conker is the kinda M that would comment on her M in the Miest way possible. Still could be done though. Really, I just wonder how Smash perceives alcohol refrences.

 

[ZelDan]

Conker: "Really? You're giving me a jar of milk!? how I am I supposed to get drunk off of this!?"

"Just trust me on this."

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I imagine so when it comes to the B&K thread, I just haven't really checked up on it.

And yeah, Conker would be the crudest character in the game. Bayo is her own kind of M, but Conker is the kinda M that would comment on her M in Miest way possible. Still could be done though. Really, I just wonder how Smash perceives alcohol refrences.

A. Conker would basically always be making comments at Bayonetta and getting his ass kicked for it.

B. The only drink that really comes to mind in Smash is Young Link's down taunt of drinking Lon-Lon Milk... Conker might try to steal it for a White Russian or something lol.

Edit: ZelDan totally beat me to it.

 

[Polarthief]

I imagine so when it comes to the B&K thread, I just haven't really checked up on it.

I've been in it since last night; decided to check on the other thread (this one) after the reveal to see how y'all were doing after the (basically deconfirmation) reveal of DQ Hero. I just creep around here during fighter reveal times because I'm a scumbag.

And yeah, Conker would be the crudest character in the game. Bayo is her own kind of M, but Conker is the kinda M that would comment on her M in Miest way possible. Still could be done though. Really, I just wonder how Smash perceives alcohol refrences.

Bayo is M for "Mmmm that's sexy", plus the violence. Conker is M for "Mmmmno. Nope. No thank you that's nasty", plus the violence

Like yeah it could work but a "fun for the whole family game" referencing mature games because they're violent is a lot different from referencing games where you start a game as a drunk af squirrel who gets sent to piss and **** land, everything's cursing, exploding into blood and guts, and it's the over the top kind of stuff that would make those squeaky clean normie parents want to boycott the game. If they put Conker in, he'd have to be ridiculously toned down and not true to the source material (the current source material of Conker being super mature, not his original incarnation), something Sakurai wouldn't do. It'd be a huge disservice to what got Conker his fanbase. Honestly, the best thing they could do for him right now is put him somewhere on the Spiral Mountain stage out in the background, maybe stumbling around and drinking "water", something the normies won't spot because they're not closely investigating their kid's games every ten seconds.

... Sorry for the ramble and getting wildly OT since this is the Geno thread and not the B-K one. Just my two cents on Conker. TL;DR: I'd love for him to get in, but there's very little chance in hell because of the source material being waaaaay too mature for kids (whereas M games for just violence, you can always tone down violence or make it more cartoonish).

Conker: "Really? You're giving me a jar of milk!? how I am I supposed to get drunk off of this!?"

Change of plan: Conker in the background, frustrated because all he can get to drink is milk.

 

[EarlTamm]

Like yeah it could work but a "fun for the whole family game" referencing mature games because they're violent is a lot different from referencing games where you start a game as a drunk af squirrel who gets sent to piss and **** land, everything's cursing, exploding into blood and guts, and it's the over the top kind of stuff that would make those squeaky clean normie parents want to boycott the game. If they put Conker in, he'd have to be ridiculously toned down and not true to the source material (the current source material of Conker being super mature, not his original incarnation), something Sakurai wouldn't do. It'd be a huge disservice to what got Conker his fanbase. Honestly, the best thing they could do for him right now is put him somewhere on the Spiral Mountain stage out in the background, maybe stumbling around and drinking "water", something the normies won't spot because they're not closely investigating their kid's games every ten seconds.

Counter point: The opening of Bayo 1.

 

[Polarthief]

Counter point: Watch the opening of Bayo 1.

... *blinks* Good lord.
So if it wasn't clear, I've never played Bayo (never seen it either, it's on my backlog), but how much of the game outside of cutscenes (especially this one) revolves around the crude/expletive humor, extreme violence (the gore and whatnot, is gameplay this gore-y?), and the obvious sex appeal?
If the whole game is like this then I'd have to admit I was pretty wrong, but at the same time, is the Smash incarnation a disservice to the series? If the adult stuff I mentioned is part of the whole game and a reason as to why the series (and character) are so popular, wouldn't that mean she's quite butchered overall? I can't help but feel if Conker did somehow get a spot, he'd just be the DKR/whatever the modern Conker thing is: squeaky-clean family-friendly squirrel, which would most definitely not be what his fans want.
You can cut out the violence, references to Nazis (the Tediz), the p!ss and crap and all that, but taking out all expletives (even the borderline ones) and alcohol/drug references, along with his rather crude humor... Idk, I just don't think it'd be the same. (plus as great as CBFD is, I feel like his popularity is hugely overshadowed by B-K)

 

[EarlTamm]

... *blinks* Good lord.
So if it wasn't clear, I've never played Bayo (never seen it either, it's on my backlog), but how much of the game outside of cutscenes (especially this one) revolves around the crude/expletive humor, extreme violence (the gore and whatnot, is gameplay this gore-y?), and the obvious sex appeal?
If the whole game is like this then I'd have to admit I was pretty wrong, but at the same time, is the Smash incarnation a disservice to the series? If the adult stuff I mentioned is part of the whole game and a reason as to why the series (and character) are so popular, wouldn't that mean she's quite butchered overall? I can't help but feel if Conker did somehow get a spot, he'd just be the DKR/whatever the modern Conker thing is: squeaky-clean family-friendly squirrel, which would most definitely not be what his fans want.
You can cut out the violence, references to Nazis (the Tediz), the p!ss and crap and all that, but taking out all expletives (even the borderline ones) and alcohol/drug references, along with his rather crude humor... Idk, I just don't think it'd be the same. (plus as great as CBFD is, I feel like his popularity is hugely overshadowed by B-K)

She has angel finishers that are strait up torture devices that sometimes edge on bdsm. And when she uses her hair attacks, she reveals much more than she does in Smash. There is a constant bloody and sexy tone, and it all factors into her confidant character. I think part of the reason people are okay with it being toned down is because of that personality though. All of that insanity comes from Bayo's confidence and kick *** demeanor, which is represented quite well in Smash. That and her gameplay is well integrated. I think Conker can work as long as you keep the basic nature of what made Conker an enjoyable character. The crassness is just a multiplier of that nature. And you can certainly keep most of Conker's gameplay, with a specific focus on the action button.

On a Geno related note, I am once again wondering about his Final Smash. Most of the newcomer Final Smashes in Ultimate have been pretty flashy, so I wonder what Geno could do that would match them.

 

[Polarthief]

I think Conker can work as long as you keep the basic nature of what made Conker an enjoyable character. The crassness is just a multiplier of that nature. And you can certainly keep most of Conker's gameplay, with a specific focus on the action button.

I guess. I'd have to see how Sakurai would "Sakurai-it-up" to know for sure.

On a Geno related note, I am once again wondering about his Final Smash. Most of the newcomer Final Smashes in Ultimate have been pretty flashy, so I wonder what Geno could do that would match them.

Whirl critical, Blast, Flash, or some combination of them. Blast and Flash are too... idk, too different and out there to be an everyday attack/special you can spam. Whirl I could easily see being NeutB or SideB as well though (with a timed hit doing significantly more damage of course; that'd likely be his core feature).

Or, imagine a Geno Blast where he calls upon the Star Road and that's what delivers those "blasts" of color raining down from the... heavens... ... star road... whatever.

 

[GrungeMan]

EarlTamm GoodGrief741

Oh no, definitely. I agree. If I were Sakurai I personally would pick Doomguy and Ryu since I am a sucker for nostalgia and paying homage to classics. Particularly for the FPS genre.

I guess what I meant was that there was a rising surge in fan speculation, particularly after base game released, in which both these characters became staple guesses for the fighter pass. In hindsight though, there really isn't anything compelling pointing to their inclusion. Banjo-Kazooie were in a somewhat similar case, as was Erdrick before his notable rise in speculation in mid-2018, but pieces slowly began to come together for both characters and there inclusions felt likely over time. However, Joker was outta nowhere, so the same could be true for fighter #4 and #5 I suppose.

If the rather pragmatic Mii Costume theory pans out, then I'm guessing RE rep and Tekken rep. If it turns out other new companies are invited to smash, then I'd say Doomguy and Ryu H. are in fact pretty likely.

Something tells me that the final two slots will be some combination of these 4 characters.

 

[3DSNinja]

I think that Bandana Dee and Phoenix Wright are the last two characters. And Bandana Dee will be revealed at the September direct and Phoenix will be revealed at the Game Awards. Honestly, Geno could happen still, but probably as a seperate fighter IMO.

 

[yakko789]

Just realized this thread will be the first thread in newcomer speculation to hit 1000 pages. Neat!

 

[RSF-Blue bomber]

https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/732741 not sure if you guys have seen it yet but the rawrest forest song got a reanimation by a bunch of talented animators and artist. check it out in this link

 

[Polarthief]

I think that Bandana Dee and Phoenix Wright are the last two characters. And Bandana Dee will be revealed at the September direct and Phoenix will be revealed at the Game Awards. Honestly, Geno could happen still, but probably as a seperate fighter IMO.

Idk, 3/3 have been 3rd party so far. I would be very surprised if BWD gets in, which would also break Mii Costume Theory.

PW does fit both 3rd party and the Capcom slot though... It'd be weird as heck but I'd actually so be down for that.

Just realized this thread will be the first thread in newcomer speculation to hit 1000 pages. Neat!

Crazy, right? With no sign of him coming in, either :'(

https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/732741 not sure if you guys have seen it yet but the rawrest forest song got a reanimation by a bunch of talented animators and artist. check it out in this link

WHAT. Thank you for sharing!

 

[GrungeMan]

Aside from the actual fighter pass, I'm actually feeling pretty good about extra surprise DLC, despite how unlikely that may sound to most fans.

Sakurai has his favorite games and all, but I think he really does have a soft spot for Geno - possibly making him a bonus fighter to close out DLC for Ultimate.

I'm not banking on it, but I'm definitely not ruling it out.

 

[Polarthief]

Aside from the actual fighter pass, I'm actually feeling pretty good about extra surprise DLC, despite how unlikely that may sound to most fans.

Sakurai has his favorite games and all, but I think he really does have a soft spot for Geno - possibly making him a bonus fighter to close out DLC for Ultimate.

I'm not banking on it, but I'm definitely not ruling it out.

Kinda how I'm feeling too. It's totally possible (and I'd love it), but probs not gonna happen.

Also consider that out of all the spirits we could have gotten from Square, we ONLY got two (Geno and Mallow), and they were from SMRPG. Also got a Spirit battle on WoL for Geno specifically. Even if there's the issue with Final Fantasy stuff, Square has plenty of other IPs that I'm sure we could have gotten spirits for, but we didn't.

I'm also not in the "spirits deconfirm fighters" boat because that's a lot of potential characters (including popular picks) that get retroactively deconfirmed for the future. Assist Trophies are one thing (almost-fighters that at least have physical models in the game!), but spirits? Nah.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Kinda how I'm feeling too. It's totally possible (and I'd love it), but probs not gonna happen.

Also consider that out of all the spirits we could have gotten from Square, we ONLY got two (Geno and Mallow), and they were from SMRPG. Also got a Spirit battle on WoL for Geno specifically. Even if there's the issue with Final Fantasy stuff, Square has plenty of other IPs that I'm sure we could have gotten spirits for, but we didn't.

I'm also not in the "spirits deconfirm fighters" boat because that's a lot of potential characters (including popular picks) that get retroactively deconfirmed for the future. Assist Trophies are one thing (almost-fighters that at least have physical models in the game!), but spirits? Nah.

So here's a question: did anybody in the DLC pack have a Spirit before they were announced?

You know, that Banjo trailer got me really hopeful for what a Geno trailer could do. They went the best route and had a Rare reunion! I bet they would do something very similar with Geno.

Just watch: the next reveal trailer will be in Banjo's house. Banjo's in his bed and the others are sleeping on the chairs/floor by the fireplace.

They hear a star crashing, crowd around the windows and door, and see... Megaman! ****ing with them! Until he gets blasted in the face with the icy blue beam of justice and... GENO REVEAL.

Watch it happen. I would bet money on it.

 

[Vector Victor]

So, remember how an earlier update had some glitchiness to Duck Hunt and Mii Swordsfighter? And then we get Banjo and Hero.

So perhaps this will happen again. Keep an eye out for anything odd or off concerning Mii Gunner.

 

[FalconFire93]

You know, besides the Smash stuff, what was the highlight of the Direct for you guys? I am really curious of the BotW sequel, as I have the feeling Zelda will be playable and Ganondorf will certainly play a big role.

- BotW Sequel
- Link’s Awakening Remake
- Luigi’s Mansion 3
- Animal Crossing New Horizons
- Witcher 3
- Alien Isolation
- Collection of Mana, third game finally comes to the West
- Ni no Kuni Switch port (never got the chance to play it the first time)
- Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order
- Super Mario Maker 2
- No More Heroes III
- Trials of Mana Remake
- Panzer Dragoon Remake

 

[Vector Victor]

So now we have a Hero Sandwich

Smashdough Bread
Lotuce
Tomeighto
Solomi
Lumontary Jack Cheese

Taste varies between regions.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I guess one of the nail biting things about the Mii costume situation is that Square Enix has a ton of characters that could be Mii Gunners, especially now that Dragon Quest is in the mix. Plus, characters like Mii Isabelle and Mii K.K. show that the interpretation of a "Gunner" can be goofy as all hell and take huge creative liberties. On top of this, we STILL don't know what Sakurai was using that gun model for because none of the DLC characters use the type of gun that model did. That said, one of the remaining two has a decent chance of being a projectile specialist so it's back to speculation heartburn despite the whole Erdrick thing finally coming to a nearly year long conclusion.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

The mii costumes being shown will definitely tell us a lot about what is happening, so even though the wait has been tough so far, we should know where Geno stands within 2-3 months. And the good news is we don't have to sit here and discuss Erdrick ad nauseum for those 2-3 months. Honestly, no other Square character is standing in the way anymore considering I think Sora is never happening and I don't think they'll give third party series more than one unique representative. The absence of a Geno mii costume would almost assure his planned inclusion, so the optimistic part of me is hoping they used the chaos of E3 as an excuse to not show mii costumes and hold off any further suspicion for a while.

Either way, it's nice to have a couple months where we can just enjoy the game and look forward to Banjo. I think it'll be a while before we get any more leaks for the 4th and 5th DLC characters since they seem fairly far off, but who knows. DQ was being discussed among insiders almost a year ago, and Banjo for 8 months at this point.

Man, since 2006 my personal two most supported characters have been Geno and Isaac. 13 years and 40+ newcomers later, they're basically the last men standing from those days. Sorry guys, this is on me.

 

[xpnc]

I guess one of the nail biting things about the Mii costume situation is that Square Enix has a ton of characters that could be Mii Gunners, especially now that Dragon Quest is in the mix. Plus, characters like Mii Isabelle and Mii K.K. show that the interpretation of a "Gunner" can be goofy as all hell and take huge creative liberties. On top of this, we STILL don't know what Sakurai was using that gun model for because none of the DLC characters use the type of gun that model did. That said, one of the remaining two has a decent chance of being a projectile specialist so it's back to speculation heartburn despite the whole Erdrick thing finally coming to a nearly year long conclusion.

make barret a mii gunner and liberate geno from his hellish prison

 

[wynn728]

Spoiler

HOOO boy, let's take these one by one, shall we?



Well there are actually, but we get what you mean. Rights to works can be really tricky, and on top of that Japanese culture is a lot different than ours. I mean, we just learned mere months ago the issues that come up for just wanting music from FF7 and Dragon Quest, so who's to say that issues with other companies or individuals didn't come up to prevent this from happening? It doesn't just have to be "Square is unreasonable" even though that is possible. I mean, look at their E3 Presentation: they killed it hard and it's arguably the best one of them all...though it's hard to lose when you open with as much FF7Remake as they did.

That literally has nothing to do with Square Enix and Nintendo negotiations and serves no point or basis on whether Square Enix is stingy. I think the fact that there's only two music track and no original artwork shows that Cloud was the problem child of Smash Bros Ultimate development.

Mmm...you know how people are saying that some Smash fans were 'entitled' because they didn't want to buy the game because they didn't like something about it? These people that were saying "Sakurai & Co worked their ***** off for this game, you ungrateful swine! Quit being so entitled and buy it!" Yeah, they didn't know what entitled meant.

This is being entitled. It's like having a kid who throws a fit because they didn't get exactly what they wanted even though their parents did the best they could. Sure, we understand being disappointed, but to act like this is childish.

Allow me to explain: this isn't a situation where you are saying "This isn't worth my hard-earned money in my opinion" but rather "Screw you and your content in your own game, it wasn't what I think it should be and if you aren't going to do it by MY standards then don't do it at all." Not only is it rather childish and pretentious, but you are also speaking as if you are the voice of many when you are truly just the voice of you.

For example, what happened when Isaac's AT wasn't in Smash 4 but the music was? Isaac fans were sad about it. This means you are flat-out wrong about EVERY Isaac fan rather not having his AT in Ultimate if he can't be a character. This is YOUR opinion and it may be shared by others, but some are happy that the character and franchise are acknowledged even if they weren't realizable as a fighter. Sure, they wanted more, but they aren't ungrateful for what they ended up getting and rather turned to focus on the future in an attempt to realize their dream.

People who complain about ATs are just expressing disappointment for characters that they may or may not like that are not realizable as fighters according to the team that gives us badass characters to play as. If you get nothing at all then how do you know the character you love is even though about at all by the team? By the company? You don't. You have to simply assume they've been forgotten. But an AT or Mii Costume or Spirit? That means they remember them and they hear us but simply cannot manage to give us what we ask for at this time.

The parts I've marked in bold are also completely subjective statements that a lot of people will disagree with you on. The alternative is acknowledging a character has a big enough legacy to be included in Smash in any form. Not every character is going to make it in to Smash, and there needs to be side content and roles for those characters. I'm sure Yacht Club Games are ****ing ecstatic that Shovel Knight got in as an Assist Trophy and Wayforward have to be similarly so for Shantae as a Spirit. It's not playable status, but those are two key examples of IPs becoming a big enough to see inclusion in Smash. Legacy can be represented in Smash in a myriad of ways not exclusive to playable characters. Them not being in the game is actually the worst outcome because none of the fans are happy. If Isaac isn't an assist trophy in Ultimate's base game, and then also does not become playable through DLC, then there's just no Isaac in the game and Golden Sun fans feel the weight of their series being completely ignored and unacknowledged by Sakurai. We may have been unhappy after Isaac seemed so likely in the leadup to Ultimate's release, but you can bet most Isaac fans were ecstatic to see him at least return in proper fashion as an assist trophy. At least some fans are allowed to be happy with the alternative.

Okay, screw off with this "entitlement" crap. I bought the game, I had my fun but I have my hang ups. Do I need to state that I like the game before I make any sort of negative remarks? Do I need to state that it's my favorite Smash Bros game of all time before I critique it and give my opinion of what would've made it so much better? Because apparently I need to state all that crap before I do the unthinkable and say something negative about Sakurai and Smash Bros. Good to know.

Look, during Smash Bros 4 Isaac fans weren't upset because they had that ballot and they could continue to support him since he wasn't in the game. They still had hope it could've happen. Was there disappointment when Isaac didn't get announced as DLC, sure but the feeling of disappoint was a lot different when compare to not getting in when compare to Assist Trophy deconfirm. No getting in was more like slowing down are realizing it but knowing that next time for sure it's going to happen since the game is officially finished. Assist Trophy deconfirmation is like getting him by a stop sign and saying never going to happen anymore when we consider who's going to be DLC, got to wait till next time which is probable going to be another 7 to 9 years... great. They might be happy with Isaac's Assist Trophy role now, but a good couple of weeks it was super heart breaking. Not a single Isaac fan cheered when they revealed his Assist Trophy, in fact many people left angry calls about what happen. They're only happy now because that's all they will ever get in Smash Bros Ultimate.

Also no crap Yacht Club and and Wayforward were happy with Shovel Knight and Shantae being in despite having small roles. Nintendo literally offered them a bunch of money for no work. What do you think they were going to do when they revealed what Shovel Knight and Shantae roles were in Smash Ultimate? Go online and express disappointment that Nintendo came up to them and offered them money to include them in such small roles? This is PR, they knew what was going to happen, it's not like they were surprised by the reveal. Companies are going to be happy with this no matter what since it's free money, but it's not the same for the fans. We're not getting anything from this. All we got was a 1 out of 59 chance of summoning Shovel Knight and a png file of Shantae...

Look, Sakurai goes on and on about how over worked he is, how he wants a break, but no one tells him that he need to make all these Assist Trophies. He may personally think that this is the best because people would like there character to be acknowledge over the most little way possible, but that's not the reality of it. There's so much ridicule to Assist Trophy characters, it shuts them out completely. You may get you're 15 seconds of fame and acknowledgement, but that's followed but the months of mockery and fade back into obscurity, not allowed to be considered for playable status ever again. It has such a low pay off, many people don't like the Assist Trophies. So instead of putting all this work into a system that pretty crap to begin with how about they just save development time and cost and just not make them to begin with. I would've been happy if instead of making 59 useless Assist Trophies they just made 30 and used the rest of the development time to take a break. Sakurai needs to understand his fanbase, all they care about is Fighters. If you can't do it then don't try to make any other alternative because you're only going to make people more disappointed.

Oof, did you speak with Sakurai himself? If so, can you tell us about way more important things, like who the last two character are and if he's been emotionally manipulated to crank out more DLC at the demand of Nintendo?

Yeah you have no idea what decisions he's made that he hasn't mentioned or revealed to us. You know just as much as we do, possibly less considering it seems you don't know about Sakurai being mostly hands-off on Spirits and only coming in occasionally to make critiques and suggestions. Seriously, Spirits had it's own team.

Also the leakers still don't know crap. Funnily enough, all of them were still mostly wrong: so far we see no female alts for The Hero and DQIII isn't even the main focus, rather DQXI with a few others to properly represent the franchise. Don't forget that not a single leaker called Joker which means that Nintendo is really trying to surprise us and is cracking down on any and all leaks as much as they can. So no, this random fan rule that 'There can only be one Square rep' is straight garbage. Nintendo can work with whoever they want and if they want more than one character from a single company, they can do that.

There's similarly nothing to indicate that we would have gotten Geno in the event that we didn't get Piranha Plant. That's just now how things work. Especially when one's a third party with far more red tape than someone much more easily accessible to Sakurai as a first party Mario rep. And again, the man should be able to include some of his own passion projects and ideas into Smash since he's the director and creator. It's his series to do with as he pleases at the end of the day (with Nintendo's permission and possibly occasionally guiding hand to be fair), not ours. And we don't know anything about Fighters 4 or 5 right now. Nobody has mentioned anything yet, and again, there's zero proof of there not being two Square Enix characters in the Fighter's Pass even if it potentially follows some logic. The leakers didn't quite realize that we were getting The Hero in the form we did, so they've all certainly missed a little bit there and can miss again.

Sakurai has to oversee Spirits, and seeing how each new DLC character get's their own Spirit Board does indicate that any character that's already a Spirit isn't going to be part of the Fighters Pass. We know that the list of the five DLC fighters were chosen during development, before the November Direct. So if Geno or any other Spirit characters were planned to be one the last two DLC characters Sakurai would've reviewed the Spirits list and say "Oh wait, we're going to make Geno playable, he's DLC Fighter #5. Okay, let's take that his Spirit and Mallow Spirit out of the game so we can include it in Geno's Super Mario RPG Spirit Board."

This isn't a fan rule saying that another Square Enix character isn't happening for Smash Bros DLC, this is being realistic and putting all the puzzle pieces together. I hate to admit it, but Verge was right about Erdrick. Sure he's called The Hero, but he said there would be just 1 new Square Enix fighter as DLC and that just so happens to be Dragon Quest The Hero. People are able to leak this DLC, Banjo was leaked a week ago. Seeing how the leakers were right about Dragon Quest, the Spirits that are involved with the DLC characters, and the fact that when we get a mini Direct (along the same line as the Joker video) they're going to sell the Square Enix Mii Costumes again tells me that Geno is officially not part of the Fighters Pass.

Also yeah, Sakurai can do what ever he wants and do his own passion project like Piranha Plant, but that doesn't excuse him from criticism. Also I really do hate that exuse "it's his series," because this isn't a game he's making for himself, this is a product that he's selling off to people. That's like saying you can't be upset that EA is putting in Lootboxes for Battlefront 2 because it's their game and they can do what ever they want.

 

[EarlTamm]

make barret a mii gunner and liberate geno from his hellish prison

You know, I saw this brought up in the general, but what if for Geno they di the same sort of reveal as K.Rool and Banjo, except the pretender is a Mii gunner.