Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[OptimisticStrifer]

I'm just gonna revise my ideal third pass based on what fatman thinks now, I encourage people to do the same. Just 5, not 6.
Sora
Doom Guy
Monokuma
Isaac
Gordon Freeman/ Heavy Weapons Guy

 

[Lord Woomy]

I feel like the bar keeps raising for Geno's chances. Like, his Mii costume not coming back with Hero might've been a good indication but people made up random excuses for that. Then a buncha convincing (and mostly yet to be debunked) leaks came out implying he was in but nope, after Hero, there's no way they're gonna put him in the pass. Well then they announce more DLC after the pass and that's not good enough for some ungodly reason because I dunno why. Can't wait for a character that was a spirit to get in so people can find a way to raise the bar even further.

 

[CannonStreak]

I feel like the bar keeps raising for Geno's chances. Like, his Mii costume not coming back with Hero might've been a good indication but people made up random excuses for that. Then a buncha convincing (and mostly yet to be debunked) leaks came out implying he was in but nope, after Hero, there's no way they're gonna put him in the pass. Well then they announce more DLC after the pass and that's not good enough for some ungodly reason because I dunno why. Can't wait for a character that was a spirit to get in so people can find a way to raise the bar even further.

Well, at least the world is mostly against those guys, because those guys, while they can defy reason all they want, the world and reason will come back to bite them. Even if Geno never gets in, that does not mean it was because of their reasoning.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

I feel like the bar keeps raising for Geno's chances. Like, his Mii costume not coming back with Hero might've been a good indication but people made up random excuses for that. Then a buncha convincing (and mostly yet to be debunked) leaks came out implying he was in but nope, after Hero, there's no way they're gonna put him in the pass. Well then they announce more DLC after the pass and that's not good enough for some ungodly reason because I dunno why. Can't wait for a character that was a spirit to get in so people can find a way to raise the bar even further.

I know nintendo can be clueless sometimes, but part of me doesn't think Sakurai would drag out Geno's costume coming back. I think that even with all his faults, Sakurai knows that to release a Geno mii costume now would be cruel.

 

[Spatulo]

I feel like character 6 will set a tone. Joker definitely did, he showed us that someone in the Fighters Pass can be anyone. I think I said this earlier, but I feel like 6 will be intended to give a similar feel, I’m just curious how they’ll do it.

 

[Lord Woomy]

I know nintendo can be clueless sometimes, but part of me doesn't think Sakurai would drag out Geno's costume coming back. I think that even with all his faults, Sakurai knows that to release a Geno mii costume now would be cruel.

The only qualm I have with this reasoning is how they waited until November to show off deconfirming ATs. Though, at the same time, Skull Kid didn't even get shown off in the presentation, implying Sakurai wasn't all too aware of his demand, Isaac wasn't present in 4 so his AT not appearing wasn't that big a deal. Shadow's really the only one they kinda dropped the ball on, but I guess they do mess up from time to time. Waluigi was early on at least, implying to me that they have some sense of mercy.

 

[Icewolff92]

PS: The "funny face" of Sakurai is definitely this one.

That's a man that is just laughing about the upcoming reactions

 

[Lord Woomy]

I feel like character 6 will set a tone. Joker definitely did, he showed us that someone in the Fighters Pass can be anyone. I think I said this earlier, but I feel like 6 will be intended to give a similar feel, I’m just curious how they’ll do it.

I'm less sure about setting the tone and more sure that it's someone the community at large will hyped over. Nintendo wants this thing to do well in any they can and if there is ever any consistent theme, it's making reveals front loaded so people buy quickly and they make their money back ASAP

 

[CannonStreak]

About the CacoMallow thing again, that was from some kind of demo, right? So is it possible for anything DLC to get demos or into demos of some kind?

 

[Lord Woomy]

About the CacoMallow thing again, that was from some kind of demo, right? So is it possible for anything DLC to get demos or into demos of some kind?

I remember Cacomallow being from a replay but that's about it.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

The only qualm I have with this reasoning is how they waited until November to show off deconfirming ATs. Though, at the same time, Skull Kid didn't even get shown off in the presentation, implying Sakurai wasn't all too aware of his demand, Isaac wasn't present in 4 so his AT not appearing wasn't that big a deal. Shadow's really the only one they kinda dropped the ball on, but I guess they do mess up from time to time. Waluigi was early on at least, implying to me that they have some sense of mercy.

It may be a bit of a personal opinion, but even skull kid, isaac and ashley were never at the peak of popularity as Geno was, request wise. Arguably the only person who was BTFO with equal support was WAH

 

[CannonStreak]

I remember Cacomallow being from a replay but that's about it.

Okay, just checking. It looks like I was mistaken on that, but wherever that replay came from, if it's real...well, you know.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Sure thing, boss!

Suit yourself, Ill marry him then

 

[Spatulo]

About the CacoMallow thing again, that was from some kind of demo, right? So is it possible for anything DLC to get demos or into demos of some kind?

The footage looked like it was from a replay, likely from a tester, not a demo

 

[ActualGarbage]

Suit yourself, Ill marry him then

You can have him, Female Byleth's all mine.

 

[Dorayaki]

I don't see what is "objective" about it though.

Strange to say to some, but Byleth was overall a net gain for Geno in this regard. Many fan arguments against him just went up in smoke.

I don't think we need to explain the franchise thing, and I think your latter part shows that you know. Plus, the argument is still valid even if characters are added, plant piranha is already the example.

To me, the problem is rather that within given amount of slots, if the chances were given to others, competing for the remaining slots with more obstacles is not really a pleasant process. It'd rather be nice if Geno was the first one to achieve himself. Not that letting others to prove it and Geno still has to risk not getting in.

 

[CannonStreak]

The footage looked like it was from a replay, likely from a tester, not a demo

Sorry. I must have mistaken a replay for a demo.

 

[Qeomash]

I know nintendo can be clueless sometimes, but part of me doesn't think Sakurai would drag out Geno's costume coming back. I think that even with all his faults, Sakurai knows that to release a Geno mii costume now would be cruel.

Isaac's Assist Trophy begs to differ.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Be weary of the CacoMallow leak, because it's entirely possible it can be not what it seems.

Should I have already gone down this road again? No.
Is this a dealbreaker on the leak? No.
But does this show that the "Mii Costume porting is impossible" argument is wrong? Definitely pic.twitter.com/lcKlvDu4lN

— DusterBuster (@SirDusterBuster) November 4, 2019

 

[Deleted member]

The thing with Cacomallow, no one and I mean NO ONE has come even close to the amount of detail and texture work that the mii costumes have. Not saying that anyone can be able to recreate but you would think by now someone would have something even remotely close. And people just gave up on it at the drop of a hat after like a week.

Be weary of the CacoMallow leak, because it's entirely possible it can be not what it seems.

Should I have already gone down this road again? No.
Is this a dealbreaker on the leak? No.
But does this show that the "Mii Costume porting is impossible" argument is wrong? Definitely pic.twitter.com/lcKlvDu4lN

— DusterBuster (@SirDusterBuster) November 4, 2019

Right. I’m not denying that not every leak is real, but that guy just replaced the mii gunner head with the helmet instead of actually modding a hat on to it which would be a significant file size and potentially crash the game.

 

[EarlTamm]

I don't think we need to explain the franchise thing, and I think your latter part shows that you know. Plus, the argument is still valid even if characters are added, plant piranha is already the example.

To me, the problem is rather that within given amount of slots, if the chances were given to others, competing for the remaining slots with more obstacles is not really a pleasant process. It'd rather be nice if Geno was the first one to achieve himself. Not that letting others to prove it and Geno still has to risk not getting in.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Maybe I am missing something, but I have no clue what you are referring too.

Be weary of the CacoMallow leak, because it's entirely possible it can be not what it seems.

Should I have already gone down this road again? No.
Is this a dealbreaker on the leak? No.
But does this show that the "Mii Costume porting is impossible" argument is wrong? Definitely pic.twitter.com/lcKlvDu4lN

— DusterBuster (@SirDusterBuster) November 4, 2019

We have seen this before, and while we know modding can be done, nothing has gotten to the CacoMallow level yet.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I don't see what is "objective" about it though.

Strange to say to some, but Byleth was overall a net gain for Geno in this regard. Many fan arguments against him just went up in smoke.

We havn't even seen what fighter pass two's style is going to be beyond it having one more character. Byleth is still fighter pass one after all.

It’s been argued that Byleth did nothing for characters like Geno because Ultimate had no TH representation beforehand and is set in a separate world from the other FE games (despite it being the same franchise), yet supposedly the world of SMRPG doesn’t count just because of Geno and Mallow being spirits (despite the spirits definitely being chosen before Season 2 DLC).

Honestly, I don’t see why Sakurai can’t change his mind for characters like Geno (if he really wouldn’t count for whatever reason), Waluigi, etc. At least Geno falls under being a Sakurai pick based on stuff he’s said and liking a Instagram post about a Geno doll.

I really don’t like these arguments that put restrictions on characters.

 

[Lord Woomy]

Isaac's Assist Trophy begs to differ.

Isaac's AT wasn't present in Smash 4 though, it not appearing for a while didn't imply is was missing so much as it implied that it may have just not returned again.

Be weary of the CacoMallow leak, because it's entirely possible it can be not what it seems.

Should I have already gone down this road again? No.
Is this a dealbreaker on the leak? No.
But does this show that the "Mii Costume porting is impossible" argument is wrong? Definitely pic.twitter.com/lcKlvDu4lN

— DusterBuster (@SirDusterBuster) November 4, 2019

I believe a lot of these were just people swapping the heads of the Mii fighters instead of actually putting it on them. It's very easy to swap the heads while actually putting them on the Miis is loads more difficult.

 

[MisterMike]

The thing with Cacomallow, no one and I mean NO ONE has come even close to the amount of detail and texture work that the mii costumes have. Not saying that anyone can be able to recreate but you would think by now someone would have something even remotely close. And people just gave up on it at the drop of a hat after like a week.

Not only that, but they haven't been able to accurately recreate the way it encircles the Mii's face.
CacoMallow left, Blender model middle, mod right.

 

[Deleted member]

Not only that, but they haven't been able to accurately recreate the way it encircles the Mii's face.
CacoMallow left, Blender model middle, mod right.
View attachment 258450

Exactly. I think one person attempted at making Mallow but even then that looked even worse.

 

[Polarthief]

That's a man that is just laughing about the upcoming reactions

Without a doubt. He knew the impending reaction.

Not only that, but they haven't been able to accurately recreate the way it encircles the Mii's face.
CacoMallow left, Blender model middle, mod right.

Hnnnnnnnng... I haven't kept up with the leak but I'm so thrilled to hear this.

 

[EarlTamm]

It’s been argued that Byleth did nothing for characters like Geno because Ultimate had no TH representation beforehand and is set in a separate world from the other FE games (despite it being the same franchise), yet supposedly the world of SMRPG doesn’t count just because of Geno and Mallow being spirits (despite the spirits definitely being chosen before Season 2 DLC).

Honestly, I don’t see why Sakurai can’t change his mind for characters like Geno (if he really wouldn’t count for whatever reason), Waluigi, etc. At least Geno falls under being a Sakurai pick based on stuff he’s said and liking a Instagram post about a Geno doll.

I really don’t like these arguments that put restrictions on characters.

Yeah, it's not like spirits matter that much anymore beyond this point due to how things were planned. I don't think the whole "new worlds" thing can be applied to the second pass either.

 

[Datboigeno]

At the time of the leak I remember several people online were saying that the only reason the modders weren't able to completely replicate the costumes was because whoever made this probably had a ton of time to do so and with enough time modders wold be able to replicate it exactly. It's been, what? 3 months since the leak? And no one has come forward with a 1:1 replication? I really don't think it's because they just happened to forget about it or decided it wasn't worth their time. If someone were to replicate it exactly and prove it to be fake definitively they'd get a ton of clout online for being able to convincingly replicate Nintendo's work that closely.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

I normally agree with Fatman's hypotheses but somehow, I just have a gut feeling we're still getting Doom Guy

 

[Datboigeno]

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

 

[EarlTamm]

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

Didn't Fatman bring something like this up in the rumors he heard for this year or so?

 

[TheCJBrine]

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

As much as I’d rather not listen to him after crap he’s pulled and his behavior, I hope he’s right about this one.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

Promotional Paper Mario in fighters pass 2?

A guy can dream.

 

[AugustusB]

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

Well...I mean, we knew this yeah?

Didn't Fatman bring something like this up in the rumors he heard for this year or so?

Yes I do believe so.

 

[Lord Woomy]

At the time of the leak I remember several people online were saying that the only reason the modders weren't able to completely replicate the costumes was because whoever made this probably had a ton of time to do so and with enough time modders wold be able to replicate it exactly. It's been, what? 3 months since the leak? And no one has come forward with a 1:1 replication? I really don't think it's because they just happened to forget about it or decided it wasn't worth their time. If someone were to replicate it exactly and prove it to be fake definitively they'd get a ton of clout online for being able to convincingly replicate Nintendo's work that closely.

I feel like we're at the point right now where it doesn't matter how much time one has. If you're not a professional modeler and don't have a dev kit then you're never going to make it look nearly as good as something official. Like, I have no idea how modeling works and even if you gave me 2 years, I don't think I could remake CacoMallow

 

[Polarthief]

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

As much as I’d rather not listen to him after crap he’s pulled and his behavior, I hope he’s right about this one.

If this is a jape, I'm going to hate him forever, oh my goooooooooooood.

 

[AugustusB]

For all the crap we have given -Redacted- , they usually do not say anything until they covered their bases.

This could be a GREAT sign gang. Hopefully with this, we can get some official info within a month's time.

 

[Deleted member]

So guys, I've got two cups of coffee and an Adderall in my guts and I'm ready to rock. Theorycraft time! Today's topic: how the **** did we get here? Let's dissect things:

Suddenly, Blythe! Wait... What?!

Blythe's reveal yesterday was jarring, to say the least. After months of frustration and dead ends even in insider circles, we got another promotional Fire Emblem character. The irony is palpable especially with Sakurai flat out saying it was a hard kept secret, even among Nintendo employees. Bravo to Sakurai and Nintendo for generating a situation where nobody knew what the golden **** was going on. So... How did we get here?

The Weird Nature of Pack 5

Blythe sticks out like a sore thumb for a ton of reasons. He's by far the "youngest" character added by a solid two years for starters. He was the tail end of a pack that was big third party icons. All these third party icons were also from companies not yet represented in Smash (Atlus, Armor Project, RARE/Microsoft, and SNK). Blythe's Mii costumes were another "dump" and thematically had nothing to do with Fire Emblem, super suspicious for a character that Nintendo literally owns. Based on all these factors, I strongly believe that Blythe was a swap out and I'll explain.

Returning to Power of Six Theory

Again, created by Judge Heihachi, Power of Six basically says that the original plan of the Fighter's Pass was to give every pack 6 Mii costumes and bring back all 15 Smash 4 third party DLC costumes. Our basic map of this is the following:

1. Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails)

2. Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo)

3. Banjo (Goemon, all 4 Megaman costumes, Sans or Rocket Grunt)

4. Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi)

5. Some Dude™ (Two costumes from this company/franchise, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

All thematically line up, with Banjo being a "dump" of sorts. Going back to my most basic theory for 5 back in September, this suggests that 5 would be a swordsman from a yet unrepresented company in Smash Ultimate. My line of thinking took me through mostly Namco and Bethesda but what if I overthought the situation? Back in September, what swordsman was the most on people's minds including insiders? Ryu Hayabusa.

Where the **** is Ryu?!?

I have a theory on what happened. Brew/Shifty's contact was correct but in a Gematsu leak way. They both said this contact knew about Piranha Plant and Joker and I believe them. This contact probably did have access to the original plan for the Fighter's Pass but... That planned changed for some reason. If we swap out Byleth with Ryu, he fits exceptionally well. Thematically, he goes with everyone else and it makes a ton of sense. As established, he even fits my basic hypothesis of 5 being a swordsman from an unrepped company. That's real ****in' neato but where is Ryu now? I have my own theories.

Conflict Among Developers? Uh Oh, Stinky!

As you all have heard from me, Ryu was first heard in insider circles around December 2018. Based on ForsakenM's timeline theory, we've established that "Season 2" was probably decided around this time and planning began. We have strong evidence of this and one developer was not so subtle about their future Smash plans: Kamiya. Mid December 2018, Kamiya puts out a public poll asking which of his characters people would like to see in Smash. Three are Capcom characters and this is where problems began. Dante won by a significant margin and that made the matter worse. Why?

Tecmo/Team Ninja and Capcom supposedly absolutely hate each other, even going as far as refusing to work on projects if the other is involved. Supposedly they've even fought each other in court too. Notice how Hyrule Warriors didn't have any of the major characters from the Capcom Zelda games? Pretty sure this was deliberate. Throw on top of this that Kamiya is hardcore resented by a good percent of professional Japanese game developers and you have a recipe for disaster. The following is my own speculation and I don't know if it can be confirmed or not.

Tecmo finds out about plans for Dante DLC in Smash and is absolutely pissed. However you say "man, **** those guys" in Japanese, that's probably what happened. Tecmo makes an ultimatum: Sakurai drops Dante or they walk from Ultimate. Sakurai doesn't budge because Kamiya is a good friend of his. Tecmo yeets itself out of DLC. This all happens before Plant is even released. "Well... ****... We're now short a character... ****, ****, piss, etc" -Sakurai, probably. There's now a big gaping hole in DLC. What's the easiest character to plug up this hole with on short notice? A Nintendo character. Sakurai said it himself, he played a Three Lawn Chairs demo and thought "neat" and made his decision based on this. No third parties were involved so it was super easy to keep this underwraps.

In my own head, this makes sense and why my contact knew about a Three Hams Will Kill Him stage and spirits, along with 4 still MIA Mii costumes, one being male and female Byleth! I think this means 6 was originally planned as a bonus and they were going to get the Three Craft Breweries content! What happened is that something went screwy and Byleth was merely prrrrrrromoted because Three Howses was already planned to get a buttload of content anyways!

The Mysterious Nature of 6

Like I've said many times before, 4 character names were commonly heard in the later half of 2018 in insider circles, Lloyd, Ryu, Geno, and anemic Burt Reynolds. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think these were the original plan for 5-8. 6 was always going to be a thing, even before Season 2 was decided. Again, like Mewtwo, a super popular character tacked onto the end as a send off but then they changed their minds for additional DLC later on. 6 was originally planned to get the Trois Maisons content because, in theory, it's a Nintendo character so it fits. So, what does this mean? It means things got jumbled and I'll map it out.

-Ryu's originally 5. For whatever reason, Tecmo drops out of Ultimate DLC.

-Ryu is replaced the easiest way that Nintendo can, they promote the Tree Houses content they were originally going to release with 6. Byleth gets promoted from Mii costume to playable. Subconsciously, Isaac and Rex fans suddenly feel existential dread and don't know why.

-Byleth's Mii costumes are all from companies already contributing to the game: Ubisoft, Capcom, and Microsoft. Byleth gets the two remaining Megaman costumes that, in theory, were originally meant for Banjo. Four Megaman costumes split between 2 "dumps" makes sense in the light of the Power of Two theory, the changed plan that 2 Smash 4 third party costumes were coming per pack until they all 15 come back.

-6 is still happening but my theory is that it will be a mix of its original planned content and Ryu's. 6's Smash 4 DLC costumes, for example, are heavily implied to be Monster Hunter and Rathalos. 6 may get the other three TH Mii costumes and one of the two rumored indie costumes to originally be planned for 6. We now have a 6 pack, supporting Power of Six and Power of Two.

-What will 6's stage, music, and spirit board be? No clue but if they're all directly related to the character, I will be genuinely surprised.

-This all lines up with the information my contacts have given me about 6 and why one of them flat out says Ryu is totally out of the picture now.

What if I'm Wrong about 6?

I've definitely considered this. What if Ryu was merely pushed back? Tecmo came back and they hugged things out. I guess that could happen. Capcom and Tecmo realize that the real magic is the friends they've made along the way and make up. Ryu gets added back in as 6. This actually lines up with what three of my confidants (not contacts, confidants are people who share info with each other and not the source of said info) have shared me. Three have heard from their own sources that 6 is going to be Dante or "a very Dante like character." This last bit is especially weird to me. It fits the profile of a speedy and flashy character. Perhaps this is why one of my contacts thinks 6 is Geno but I seriously doubt it. Only character in the insider speculation sphere that fits this description is Ryu. If I'm wrong about El Hermano, this presents the following ideas: 6 is Ryu, Dante, Geno, or it's yet another situation like Blythe and everyone got jebaited again.

So, laying this all on the table, our probable spread for 6 is pretty good. 4 decently popular characters or a total rando is a pretty good way to start off Season 2 in my opinion.

One thing that I am confused on is that I don’t feel that it’s appropriate to bring the TH costumes with character 6 but not Byleth.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, ok. Last thing on Byleth but this meme is too perfect.

pic.twitter.com/T3dHgo1S24

— Gothic Teddy Bear 💀🐻 (@The_Last_Goth) January 17, 2020

 

[MisterMike]

Exactly. I think one person attempted at making Mallow but even then that looked even worse.

That guy wasn't going for accuracy, he just wanted to show that Mii Costume modding was possible. He explicitly mentioned that.

Hnnnnnnnng... I haven't kept up with the leak but I'm so thrilled to hear this.

Hmm, really? Well then I guess you should check out this speculation round-up post I made back in December. It goes over a lot of the main stuff going on regarding speculation and rumors/leaks, and it's still pretty accurate since not much has changed since then aside from Byleth.
https://smashboards.com/threads/geno-♪-return-of-the-starsend-savior-on-to-fighters-pass-2-speculation.446378/post-23735985

https://twitter.com/new_wabisabi/status/1218363208618012672?s=21

if Nintendo is actually going to start remaking more Mario RPGs hopefully SMRPG comes sooner than later

People give Sabi **** for being an asshole (why doesn't the word filter block out this word?) who (allegedly) does terrible things, but when they make claims like this (ie. leaks) I have no doubt that they're on the level, especially since every leak they've given has to my knowledge been right so far.

Anyways... yay, an actual Paper Mario game! When's the last time we had that? I bet Arlo's gonna be happy to see that, eh?

Didn't Fatman bring something like this up in the rumors he heard for this year or so?

Not sure, but this guy mentioned a Paper Mario 64 remake back in November.

Fire Emblem 3DS remake was a remake from FE 6 & 7 in the same package As "Fire Emblem Echoes: Blazing Sword"
Also a Pokemon Mystery Dugeon, a Wario Land VB remake, New Style Boutique 4 and a Paper Mario 64 remake were planned to be released for the 3DS this 2019 and beyond.

— markomaro (@Newmarkomaro) November 3, 2019