Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Vector Victor]

Banjo & Kazooie already did that to the best selling game in the world, no offence to people who want Steve.

K Rool should have ended the Irrelevancy argument, but people still push it. Heck, Geno can be playable and they'll still use it for the next character despite being wrong multiple times.

 

[Deleted member]

K Rool should have ended the Irrelevancy argument, but people still push it. Heck, Geno can be playable and they'll still use it for the next character despite being wrong multiple times.

Geno getting in will murder almost every "rule" and argument ever made, aside from assist trophies being a graveyard. That's one reason that it'd be so symbolic for him to either be Challenger Pack 5 or to headline the next DLC wave.

 

[AugustusB]

I have a hard time believing they'll stop making new stages to be honest. I can see it with pre existing franchises, but with new franchises? I don't think they'll leave it out. Most franchises in Smash have a stage to go with them with a couple exceptions like ROB. All 3rd parties have also consistently have had stages to go with them as well. So I think stages will get added as well, as long as they're from a new franchise

I agree with you on this, but allow me to play devil's advocate. Now we may understand why Piranha Plant is now under Individual DLC and why that bracket was made in the first place.
With the announcement of new DLC fighters, we could see them as individual fighters (Or perhaps, SOME of them will be that). It is even stated under the announcement (disclaimer) that these fighters would appear OUTSIDE of the fighters pass. "Of course it would, why does that matter?" Well, they announced them as fighters...not another pass.
"OK, well they could still get a stage, right?" Yes and No. If there are Echo fighters included, then they might not get a stage. If it is a brand new fighter, maybe.

I could possibly see us getting just the fighter with some music. Why and How? STAGE BUILDER. Take the work load off the team and make the stage yourself!

"But what about music!?" I am willing to bet we will get an update on Stage Builder to include more than one track on a stage (5 Max sounds like a good test run). Again, I do not believe my own madness, but we cannot rule out this possibility until we know more about the fighters outside the pass.

Also, Geno is a cool dude who isn't afraid of anything.........maybe termites.....definitely terlmites.

 

[Deleted member]

Working late at night on Operation StarFall stuff when I was just glancing at a few Youtube videos. But then I saw this.

Spoiler

View attachment 237927

Source: https://youtu.be/b9jyoSn6DaU?t=266

This was the battle for the Tooty Spirit where Banjo shows up half way thru. However, what I find interesting is this is the default skin of Banjo. Wasn't part of spirit fights suppose to be that you weren't suppose to be fighting the actual character and they were just alternate skins for them? Even stuff like Wii Fit's Yoga pose spirits, they all had alternate costumes for Wii Fit Trainer. (Even when the spirit was the normal blue)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ydKEEItqbQ

I know I seem to be looking way too into this but I want to find something that shows that the Spirits Deconfirm rule is slowly cracking. Why would they use the default Banjo skin in a spirit battle??? This has never happened before. Please tell me either I am crazy or I am onto something. Can someone find another instance where a default skin showed up?

Until a current spirit gets in as a playable character, "spirits deconfirm" isn't cracking. That's just how it is. I will say that from a "canon" perspective, having the proper colored fighters in a spirit battle is a little weird, but the only "canon" spirit battles are the ones in World of Light anyway.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

K Rool should have ended the Irrelevancy argument, but people still push it. Heck, Geno can be playable and they'll still use it for the next character despite being wrong multiple times.

People are always going to push for their rules regardless whether they actually believe it themselves or use it to downplay a competing character for a character they support. I see it more as competition since as far as we know, there are only a limited amount of spots (Being 10 more according the WOL dummy slots) and people are antsy, waiting to see if their voices have been heard.

 

[Firox]

For sure, and sorry, I didn't mean to imply you thought that Nintendo picks = shill picks, I was just using the lack of shill picks as a separate point toward how clear Sakurai's control over the pass is.

I agree that there's no way for us to know that Geno/Shantae etc. are even ON the list, but I feel like the list must be PRETTY broad/generous given who we've gotten so far.

Like, if the list was only 20-30 characters long, I REALLY struggle to believe that Terry Bogard or Joker would be high on Nintendo's priority list.

I think people in general (not necessarily you) are really underselling how much influence Sakurai CLEARLY has on the DLC, and overselling how much is a matter of Nintendo forcing his hand

Yeah, I totally agree. Considering how seemingly random Joker and Terry are, it should be pretty safe to say that Nintendo's list is fairly long. In that sense, you would be correct that Sakurai is still basically 80-90% in control in the grand scheme of things. If that's true, it should be a good omen for Geno. Sakurai seems to like him and if he IS on the list, then we should still have a pretty good chance of him getting picked. As I've said before, I have a sneaking suspicion that Geno will be the "Banjo-Kazooie" of the next batch of fighters.

 

[Ovaltine]

Yeah, I totally agree. Considering how seemingly random Joker and Terry are, it should be pretty safe to say that Nintendo's list is fairly long. In that sense, you would be correct that Sakurai is still basically 80-90% in control in the grand scheme of things. If that's true, it should be a good omen for Geno. Sakurai seems to like him and if he IS on the list, then we should still have a pretty good chance of him getting picked. As I've said before, I have a sneaking suspicion that Geno will be the "Banjo-Kazooie" of the next batch of fighters.

While I'm not so positive on the length of the supposed list or whatever, I really feel like Geno would be the best choice as the 'Banjo-Kazooie' of the next batch of fighters. I'm getting that same feeling in here that I did in the B-K thread before Banjo's reveal, and while I didn't want to believe it then (because of so many years of being burned), it's making me feel more hopeful now.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Where did this idea of Sakurai being given a "list" from which to freely choose DLC fighters come from? I can't find a source supporting it. And the translation offered just a few pages ago seems to imply the opposite, and that Nintendo had a much more hands-on approach (even if Sakurai had the final say).

 

[Rie Sonomura]

They will keep going beyond that. They will add so many characters that the roster will begin to stick out of the sides of our screens



I have a hard time believing they'll stop making new stages to be honest. I can see it with pre existing franchises, but with new franchises? I don't think they'll leave it out. Most franchises in Smash have a stage to go with them with a couple exceptions like ROB. All 3rd parties have also consistently have had stages to go with them as well. So I think stages will get added as well, as long as they're from a new franchise

Well, maybe not to the point of sticking out of the screen. They may well put in a page 2 like they did for 3DS

And they might add new stages for existing franchises too. Like MC.Princess Diaries with Octolings, or NLA/Noctilum/Sylvalum with Elma

 

[Deleted member]

Where did this idea of Sakurai being given a "list" from which to freely choose DLC fighters come from? I can't find a source supporting it. And the translation offered just a few pages ago seems to imply the opposite, and that Nintendo had a much more hands-on approach (even if Sakurai had the final say).

I think the assumption is that someone at Nintendo must have a list of fighters rather than someone dropping Sakurai an email that says "hey what about [character], ever think of them?" Which could easily be more likely than we think...

 

[EricTheGamerman]

While I'm not so positive on the length of the supposed list or whatever, I really feel like Geno would be the best choice as the 'Banjo-Kazooie' of the next batch of fighters. I'm getting that same feeling in here that I did in the B-K thread before Banjo's reveal, and while I didn't want to believe it then (because of so many years of being burned), it's making me feel more hopeful now.

I think you're right on this. It goes back to an idea that I had months ago regarding the Fighter's Pass. The focus of the overall pass clearly hasn't been fan demand and has been on crossing over with new series and video games. I think Nintendo knew this and wanted to make sure one character was based around fan demand within the pass as the "fan pick" to offset some of the criticism it might otherwise receive. Banjo & Kazooie is the bone that they throw to the "core" fan base so they are largely more accepting of the overall direction of Ultimate's DLC pushing more heavily into third parties. That's why I said that Banjo & Kazooie was potentially a problem for other fan requests like Geno in the sense that he was the "fan request slot." Which isn't to say these other characters didn't have fan support... but there's only the once choice in the game unequivocally made just for the fans and that's Banjo & Kazooie.

I think Nintendo will want to do something similar for the next batch of DLC (and if Nintendo did truly choose DLC again, I suspect that means a second Fighter's Pass instead of individual DLC since Nintendo does like that money and overall advertising for the game) and Geno seems like a prime candidate for the appeal to the "core" fan base.

 

[Luis27]

I think the ideal splash screen line would be "Geno Shoots For The Stars!"

GENO

A WISH IS GRANTED!

 

[Ovaltine]

Also, on the topic of a reveal card, y'all can take, "GENO gets the show on the road!" from my cold, dead hands.

 

[Axelocke]

Geno has SO much going for him, and his inclusion would garner a lot of attention from Nintendo fans of all demographics, similar to Kirby, Geno is easy to draw and has an appealing blue and yellow color palette.

Star boi come home!

 

[TriggerX]

Was a second fighters pass confirmed? It was my understanding that video said that there would be additional fighters, but I don’t recall it saying anything about an actual pass.

 

[Ovaltine]

Geno has SO much going for him, and his inclusion would garner a lot of attention from Nintendo fans of all demographics, similar to Kirby, Geno is easy to draw and has an appealing blue and yellow color palette.

Star boi come home!

The thing that people don't think about in regards to Geno and his irrelevancy (which, let's be real, aside from Smash and ports, this is an unfortunate fact) is how easy he'd be to appeal to even a casual audience. There's no other Mario character like him, and in a sea of boring Toads that have little to no difference apart from color, reused assets, and lost originality, Geno's a real stand-out. (Then again, the Toads in all the Mario RPGs prior to Sticker Star and Dream Team were stand-outs by comparison to the Toads we have now.) Who is he? He's a doll! No, wait, he's a STAR?! He's possessing the doll? What does he do? He shoots? He has rocket fists? Wait, he can turn into a CANNON? This guy's insane!

The fact that Geno has an appealing design has drawn in a lot of people already, and I feel that, if young kids today were exposed to Geno, they'd find him to be pretty fun. He's a Mario character anyway, and as the Mario series has shown, even characters that hadn't seen a proper outing in years like Pauline (I'd hardly count the unsuccessful Mario vs. DK games as a 'proper' outing for her, honestly) and Boom Boom can find modern-day appeal. Irrelevant as he may be, he has that very powerful one-two punch of being a Mario character going for him. The power of being part of Nintendo's big flagship franchise is tremendous and can give almost any character a new lease on life, should Nintendo and involved parties desire it.

Between being a Mario character, having a neat design, and having a concept that no other Mario character has ever had since, it's easy to see how Geno wouldn't just appeal to hardcore fans, but to casual fans, as well. An appealing and compelling character at first glance is enough to do so much. Look at how many kids flocked to King K. Rool after he was released! Remember the first Ultimate tourneys in Japan with those grade school kids that probably didn't grow up with K. Rool? Quite a few of them went right for him, and it's no wonder why. His design and concept is awesome. I'm seeing more kids being introduced to B-K through their inclusion, as well, and absolutely loving them and (at least) their first game. I'm sure Geno would also make a similar splash with young'uns.

Was a second fighters pass confirmed? It was my understanding that video said that there would be additional fighters, but I don’t recall it saying anything about an actual pass.

It's not confirmed, but it is confirmed that Nintendo selected the next batch of DLC, just like the Fighter's Pass. Because of Sakurai's reluctance for season passes and Nintendo's approach, the writing on the wall suggests that another season pass is likely.

 

[Firox]

Where did this idea of Sakurai being given a "list" from which to freely choose DLC fighters come from? I can't find a source supporting it. And the translation offered just a few pages ago seems to imply the opposite, and that Nintendo had a much more hands-on approach (even if Sakurai had the final say).

Up until recently, it was INFERRED that Nintendo had given Sakurai a list to choose from, but as of about a week ago, Sakurai specifically said in an interview that that was in fact the case. Here's an article about it:

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...ide-super-smash-bros-ultimates-fighters-pass/

 

[Cuzeba123]

Or my favorite:

Geno Flips Off the Irrelevancy Argument!

Geno
Try to Spirit This, Fan Rullers!

 

[Vector Victor]

Didn't an insider here mention that there was Geno talk last year in the North America Nintendo offices? Weren't spirits done before that?

And what if the sudden SMRPG references were done to bring attention to the characters to convince square that Geno would be a good investment?

 

[JarBear]

Got to plug this in again about Operation StarFall ... Please spread the word about it! Been trying to flood some Smash and Geno related videos and such. If you are part of any separate Discords or other networking sites ... please spread the word! Thank you!

 

[kiteinthesky]

K Rool should have ended the Irrelevancy argument, but people still push it. Heck, Geno can be playable and they'll still use it for the next character despite being wrong multiple times.

That's because when they say "irrelevant", they don't mean in general. They mean that character is irrelevant to them. And that's a vitally important distinction that has to be recognized.

It's also an extremely myopic and selfish viewpoint, but I mean, let's think about what species we're in for a second.

 

[JarBear]

Didn't an insider here mention that there was Geno talk last year in the North America Nintendo offices? Weren't spirits done before that?

And what if the sudden SMRPG references were done to bring attention to the characters to convince square that Geno would be a good investment?

I do recall that, it was during the the fall prior to the game release. those conversations are waaaaay back in this thread, which I believe Fatmanonice discussed.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Up until recently, it was INFERRED that Nintendo had given Sakurai a list to choose from, but as of about a week ago, Sakurai specifically said in an interview that that was in fact the case. Here's an article about it:

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...ide-super-smash-bros-ultimates-fighters-pass/

This is an article about the Famitsu column PushDustin and Kody recapped yesterday on twitter, and it uses their tweets as its source, which make no mention of Nintendo giving Sakurai a list. The post I linked to earlier is directly quoting the same column.

 

[StrawHatX]

I have a feeling that if we get an official second Fighter Pass Nintendo might charge more money this time around than last time. Especially with Sakurai commenting on how great of a deal $5 is for a new fighter, stage, and multiple tracks of music.

Of course if we just get DLC characters that don’t come with a stage then it’ll probably stick around that $5 mark.

 

[kiteinthesky]

I have a feeling that if we get an official second Fighter Pass Nintendo might charge more money this time around than last time. Especially with Sakurai commenting on how great of a deal $5 is for a new fighter, stage, and multiple tracks of music.

Of course if we just get DLC characters that don’t come with a stage then it’ll probably stick around that $5 mark.

I don't know, my money's on characters staying at around $5-$6 regardless of what comes with them. Remember Sakurai said he's going to keep making DLC characters for as long as possible, and that leaves the potential for a LOT of characters, possibly even 20. 20 x $5 = $100. If they charged $10 for future characters, it would be 5 x $5 = $25 + (10 or 15 x $7, 8, 9) = $25 + $70, $80, $90, or even $105, $120, $135 = potentially $160 for all of the DLC characters if they're bought individually. That's almost as much as the Switch Lite itself will be.

 

[JarBear]

I'm sure the price will stay the same. The "Fighter's Pass" maybe the special DLC since it comes with music, stage and mii costumes.

My guess is there either may be another kind of pass, that may or may not have the same content as the fighters pass or it's simply individual fighters that get announced from time to time like Sm4sh.

It's all unknown for us at the moment.

 

[Ovaltine]

I do recall that, it was during the the fall prior to the game release. those conversations are waaaaay back in this thread, which I believe Fatmanonice discussed.

Pretty much, yeah. I wouldn't take these as anything solid anymore. The most I'd look at it as is a point of intrigue, because it's clear that Geno is on the mind of people at Nintendo of America. That's about it.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed was the DLC spirit board list having only enough for another two spirit boards. Either they'll extend it with a scroll bar or resizing tweaks, or the future DLC won't be coming with spirit boards at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Either they'll extend it with a scroll bar or resizing tweaks, or the future DLC won't be coming with spirit boards at all.

And nothing of value was lost...

But they'll probably just add a scroll bar or categorize them somehow.

 

[Deleted member]

GENO

A WISH IS GRANTED!

GENO
STARS IN SMASH!

 

[Firox]

This is an article about the Famitsu column PushDustin and Kody recapped yesterday on twitter, and it uses their tweets as its source, which make no mention of Nintendo giving Sakurai a list. The post I linked to earlier is directly quoting the same column.

This is from the post you quoted:

Basically, Nintendo decides the lineup of fighters.

Nothing very ambiguous about this. Sakurai makes the final decision while Nintendo feeds him the possibles. I mean, maybe he doesn't have a literal Santa Claus list rolling across the floor, but it doesn't take much to connect the dots here. Again, if Sakurai were 100% in control, he wouldn't have bothered to mention corporate Nintendo's involvement.

 

[JarBear]

A lineup is made up of multiple individuals or things, such as people standing in a line.

A list is "a number of connected items or names written or printed consecutively, typically one below the other."

So if Nintendo decides the lineup ... it would have to be recorded on a list ...

Sakurai has the final say if he can make the proposed fighters into something ... which would have to stem from a list since Nintendo comes up with the lineup.

So I am not too sure why you think Nintendo doesn't have a list that's been given or presented to Sakurai.

I'm sorry if I don't understand your arguement. I'm a bit tired at the moment.

 

[Deleted member]

This is from the post you quoted:



Nothing very ambiguous about this. Sakurai makes the final decision while Nintendo feeds him the possibles. I mean, maybe he doesn't have a literal Santa Claus list rolling across the floor, but it doesn't take much to connect the dots here. Again, if Sakurai were 100% in control, he wouldn't have bothered to mention corporate Nintendo's involvement.

I think he's just hung up on the conception that there's a list, which would imply some level of finality to the picks, like, if Nintendo were to have handed him a grocery list and he decided what he was going to get off of that list, it still means he's not going to go to leave the grocery store to go buy a television. He's just stating that there's no proof that the grocery list exists, especially since that same quote makes it sound like Nintendo approaches Sakurai with "this specific [fighter]" rather than a list of fighters.

Sakurai basically makes the decision on what groceries get shopped for as his housemates come up with them. If he doesn't think the freezer needs any ice cream, he turns them down.

 

[maf91186]

"Geno shows his spirit"

This is my hill. I'm ready to die XD

 

[Slime Scholar]

I think he's just hung up on the conception that there's a list, which would imply some level of finality to the picks, like, if Nintendo were to have handed him a grocery list and he decided what he was going to get off of that list, it still means he's not going to go to leave the grocery store to go buy a television. He's just stating that there's no proof that the grocery list exists, especially since that same quote makes it sound like Nintendo approaches Sakurai with "this specific [fighter]" rather than a list of fighters.

Sakurai basically makes the decision on what groceries get shopped for as his housemates come up with them. If he doesn't think the freezer needs any ice cream, he turns them down.

This is a fairly apt summary.

It probably sounds like a weird thing to get hung up on, and I'm not usually a stickler for details like this-- after all, the end result is always going to be "fighters chosen by Nintendo and approved by Sakurai." But I think the narrative of "he was given this potentially huge list of characters and is just picking the ones he wants" could be greatly overestimating the amount of creative freedom he has. Using his perceived biases when appraising a character's chances seems like a mistake.

 

[SKX31]

I don't know, my money's on characters staying at around $5-$6 regardless of what comes with them. Remember Sakurai said he's going to keep making DLC characters for as long as possible, and that leaves the potential for a LOT of characters, possibly even 20. 20 x $5 = $100. If they charged $10 for future characters, it would be 5 x $5 = $25 + (10 or 15 x $7, 8, 9) = $25 + $70, $80, $90, or even $105, $120, $135 = potentially $160 for all of the DLC characters if they're bought individually. That's almost as much as the Switch Lite itself will be.

I'm really tempted to say that that's tame. Guess I've been jaded by "Sound Business Models" which sound like "Microtransaction Hell" at first glance. Hoo boy have I got stories there.

This is a fairly apt summary.

It probably sounds like a weird thing to get hung up on, and I'm not usually a stickler for details like this-- after all, the end result is always going to be "fighters chosen by Nintendo and approved by Sakurai." But I think the narrative of "he was given this potentially huge list of characters and is just picking the ones he wants" could be greatly overestimating the amount of creative freedom he has. Using his perceived biases when appraising a character's chances seems like a mistake.

Well, we have reasons to believe that list was huge. There's already more companies involved in Ultimate's Fighter Pass than Smash 4's DLC. And that's not getting into the companies which are cooperating with Nintendo (Tencent), companies which are likely to have been approached but things faltered (Valve) and so on. That's not getting into how deep some benches are (Capcom, S-E, etc.) or further DLC which we are getting. There's a good possibility Sakurai and Nintendo decided to expand the DLC partly because the list was huge.

 

[Deleted member]

This is a fairly apt summary.

It probably sounds like a weird thing to get hung up on, and I'm not usually a stickler for details like this-- after all, the end result is always going to be "fighters chosen by Nintendo and approved by Sakurai." But I think the narrative of "he was given this potentially huge list of characters and is just picking the ones he wants" could be greatly overestimating the amount of creative freedom he has. Using his perceived biases when appraising a character's chances seems like a mistake.

I think even with the most accurate translation imaginable, even to a native Japanese speaker, there's no way to get the "truth" out of Sakurai's statement. I sort of jokingly suggested that, while Sora Ltd. isn't owned by Nintendo (at least not as far as I know), and therefore Sakurai isn't really a Nintendo employee, he works for Nintendo since they own and publish Super Smash Bros., and as a result, his own choices technically qualify as Nintendo's choices. Would he tell a half-truth like that? Who knows.

Given that the translation also states that he "can still say no", I wouldn't actually count out his creative freedom. To our knowledge there's only one character that his hand was ever forced on, and that's Corrin - hell, that might not even be our "knowledge" but some fan rumor that started flying around because of how absolutely sick of Fire Emblem characters most Smash players are, and having one past Roy that's a walking advertisement rubbed everyone the wrong way. How does anyone prove that Sakurai said no to a character because he would prefer another one? Isaac and Zero are doomed to an assist trophy while Piranha Plant and Isabelle are playable characters, there's no rhyme or reason to why he would think a character wouldn't "work". Even characters he outright said wouldn't "work" like Ridley, Villager, and Miis are in the game as playable fighters, his selection process is probably a mystery even to Nintendo. Abstract as it is, he might even consider how popular a character would be with the fans to be something that does or does not "work".

I think the "how" is the mystery of Smash development. Whether there's a focus group or a laundry list or Sakurai just takes emails from random Nintendo employees and considers it, that's what would really put people's mind at ease (or drive them up the wall) to know. There's a massive inconsistency with the common perception of "Nintendo chose the fighter lineup" and Joker, Banjo, and Terry, and that's if we consider Hero the true shill character.

My best and truest guess actually is focus group. "Nintendo chose the fighter lineup" doesn't even say DLC, we're the ones who put that word into Sakurai's mouth this time. If we take it at face value, Nintendo chose:
Everyone is here
Inkling, Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Isabelle, and Incineroar (along with echoes)
Joker, Hero, Banjo, Terry, Fighter 5
The future

In which case Nintendo chose nothing but popularly requested characters, Incineroar, and then off the wall picks, much like Reggie said "fighters that you would never expect to be in Smash Bros" for the Fighters Pass. They didn't shill a damn thing, they gave us exactly what we wanted and likely will continue to do so.

And for what it's worth, after Brawl and Smash 4, Geno IS a character I would never expect to be in Smash Bros.

 

[Firox]

Given that the translation also states that he "can still say no", I wouldn't actually count out his creative freedom. To our knowledge there's only one character that his hand was ever forced on, and that's Corrin - hell, that might not even be our "knowledge" but some fan rumor that started flying around because of how absolutely sick of Fire Emblem characters most Smash players are, and having one past Roy that's a walking advertisement rubbed everyone the wrong way. How does anyone prove that Sakurai said no to a character because he would prefer another one? Isaac and Zero are doomed to an assist trophy while Piranha Plant and Isabelle are playable characters, there's no rhyme or reason to why he would think a character wouldn't "work". Even characters he outright said wouldn't "work" like Ridley, Villager, and Miis are in the game as playable fighters, his selection process is probably a mystery even to Nintendo. Abstract as it is, he might even consider how popular a character would be with the fans to be something that does or does not "work".

Amen, reverend. As frustrating as it is to say, you just can't truly predict what's going on behind the scenes and inside Sakurai's head. The fact that Sakurai himself said Ridley could never work without betraying his source material and then put him in anyway means that even "No" can mean "Yes". He can ask us for the most popular characters we can think of, then give the one character we never even thought was a character. I was hoping that Nintendo's oversight would bring some rhyme to his reason, but given the current fighter's pass, it seems he's retained enough control to stay completely unpredictable.

 

[T2by4]

GENO
STARS IN SMASH!

GENO
SQUARES THE **** UP!

 

[Shado-will]

GENO
PROVES SPIRITS DON'T DECONFIRM

 

[xpnc]

Geno Awakens. I dunno why it'd have to be anything else