Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Nicnac]

He let down the ARMS, Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, Ashley, Dixie Kong, Xenoblade, Bandana Waddle Dee, Waluigi, Bomberman, and Skull Kids fans.

Aye, but if he put in Geno these groups would have been instantly placated? No. Even if he picked one of these instead, that's at least 10 fighter fanbases he'd be pissing off. I don't particularly like Plant either, but if Geno had gotten in instead, these fans wouldn't be satisfied as well. Obviously Geno was more requested than PP, but not only was Plant easier to obtain, Sakurai had his own reasons.

 

[wynn728]

He will be to you, but he was going to let down all of those fandoms but one anyway (and that's even assuming taking Piranha Plant out gets one of them in and not someone else or something else, which we really can't). I think he's an amazing pick and that's just a subjective thing, he is great to me and others, don't try to claim he's a terrible pick like that when others will have different opinions. Once again, and I can't remind people of this enough it seems, not every pick will be or should be for you specifically. Characters are picked for a wide variety of reasons, and Piranha Plant just isn't for you. You don't magically get anything because your character has been "waiting for years" to be in. No character just inherently gains reasons because some fans have waited for them. The strength of the movement and the size of the fan base matters most of all in fan picks, and Sakurai/Smash will never be exclusively fan picks (Even if Ultimate did come way closer than any other game in the franchise).

It's not an insult. It's just the Game Director deciding he wants to do something else. He's completely in the right to make the decisions for the game since it's literally his job (and one he's extremely successful at too). The best I can tell you is to just continue supporting those characters and try to make your voice heard through positive and organized support for future DLC/Smash 6/whatever.

Look, I'm not complaining about Piranha Plant because he isn't for me, I complain about Piranha Plant because it takes away from so many people. I'm okay if my most wanted character never gets in as long as a fan-favorite gets in. I don't give a crap about Banjo or Dragon Quest Hero, but I'm never going to complain about their inclusion because I know that so many peoples dreams came true with those characters. I didn't want Isabelle in the game, but I'm happy since fan demand was being satisfied. With Piranha Plant inclusion that satisfied no one, no one dream came true with this character reveal. I don't give a crap about Waluigi or Captain Toad being in Smash Bros but if they got in instead of Piranha Plant I wouldn't complain because fan demand is being met even if it's not my own.

Sure, Sakurai can decide to do whatever he wants but that doesn't mean we have to support every single decision he makes. Piranha Plant isn't good just because Sakurai wanted to include him, if so then Tripping and Smash Tour are the best thing ever since Sakurai included those in Smash Bros. I'm tired of the whole "it's Sakurai's game so you can't complain" mentality. If it's garbage then it's garbage no matter who made it. Piranha Plant will always be consider an insult, especially thanks to the Plant Gang. I'm not going to twist my views so they align with Sakurai's.

Aye, but if he put in Geno these groups would have been instantly placated? No. Even if he picked one of these instead, that's at least 10 fighter fanbases he'd be pissing off. I don't particularly like Plant either, but if Geno had gotten in instead, these fans wouldn't be satisfied as well. Obviously Geno was more requested than PP, but not only was Plant easier to obtain, Sakurai had his own reasons.

But you never seen any of these fans go after Ridley, King K. Rool, Simon Belmont, Banjo, Inklings, or Isabelle. You know why? Because they know someone dream is coming true with these characters even if it isn't theirs. No one is going going to say "Why was K. Rool added instead of Isaac?" We understand the massive fan appeal that these characters have, but there is no appeal when it comes to Piranha Plant. That's why Piranha Plant will always be targeted as the "why" character when it comes to all of those fanbases. We can concede and be disappoint that our favorites didn't get in but won't be pissed off all these other fan favorite characters made it in as playable. Also many of those characters that I listed are owned by Nintendo, they're just as easy to obtain just like Piranha Plant.

 

[Firox]

That happens with almost every character in speculation though and isn't specific to Piranha Plant. It's a pretty standard cycle of character gets revealed, gets a month in the sun, then drops off significantly with some dedicated players and appreciation. That's more a symptom of how we treat speculation cycles as a community than a specific dislike of any character. King K. Rool and Ridley both fall bottom tier for this roster as well despite being requested characters, so tier placement shouldn't really be indicative of anything unless you're prepared to criticize them too.

And Piranha Plant represents a great deal more than you're giving it credit for. Enemies are as essential and element to games as the villains are. And Piranha Plant is absolutely one of the most recognizable characters in gaming as a main Mario enemy. And they are characters. People get too damn focused on the fact that certain ideas for Smash aren't built with some specific backstory or even named traditionally by the company, but character as defined for video game usage casts a much wider net than most other media. Enemies and self-inserts can still be defined as characters and often are. And he became an even more realized character once Sakurai worked his magic and gave him a pretty distinct personality. I mean, he's a surprise/unique pick, but he's not specifically just a gag character to be a gag character. Sakurai has outlined why he included Piranha Plant in detail and it makes complete sense. He's one of the few characters to genuinely expand the scope of Super Smash Bros. as a franchise, which not many characters can share in that sort of achievement.

Plus, I still use Piranha Plant quite frequently and love him even several months later. He may not be my main, but just because people aren't constantly raving about him, doesn't mean that he's absolutely been forgotten and left behind as a character. You're able to appreciate additions without constantly praising them or making a fuss over them.

See, I would argue your first point, though. I not saying ppl have totally abandoned Piranha Plant, but its user drop-off was far more pronounced than that of Joker. Not only has MKLeo made some serious waves with him, but if you play in and around Elite smash you will still see a lot of them, myself included. One only lasted a week while the other is still going strong after what? Three months? PP was more of a novelty in my opinion. And to Wynn's point, just because PP represents something unique in terms of scope, that doesn't mean it's a good thing. It represents that our expectations, especially mine, have no definitive bottom. It represents that long-standing fan favorites like Geno or a plethora of so many others are considered lower priority than a generic enemy regardless of recognizability. An inclusion like PP says one of four things, period:

A) Sakurai wants Geno but can't get the rights
B) Sakurai doesn't actually give a **** about Geno despite what he says
C) Sakurai wants Geno, can get the rights, but deems him lower priority than a generic enemy WTF character
or
D) Sakurai wants Geno, can get the rights, and is saving him for a massive hype-gasm of DLC because he knows it will sell (much better than PP would have if it had been paid-for DLC)

I sincerely hope that scenario D is the case, however, it is also the most unlikely. Regardless, my point is that PP, despite any uniqueness or character, does not offer ANY positive clues as to whether Geno is going to make it in. People can still enjoy the character, but you have to understand that there are many of us that feel like PP was the exact opposite of Cloud. Rather than expanding the belief of anything being possible, PP instead reminded us all that we can just as easily get something incredibly mundane as well. Then take into account how much hype B-K has brought to the DLC. Could you imagine getting something like Goomba or paratroopa for DLC#5? If such a day ever came, I would bury Geno's chances for good. To be honest, if Geno ends up failing to get in via DLC or otherwise, I would have no choice but to assume we have either scenario A or B.

Oh, and one last thing to consider: Since the creation of PP in smash bros, the once generic enemy has been elevated to full character status in the Mario extended universe. For example, in the new switch version of Mario tennis, they made the standard PP a playable character in ADDITION to Petey Pirahna. That's right. We get to play not just one, BUT TWO varieties of plant. I can pretty much guarantee that the next mario kart will have a piranha plant as a playable driver. What I'm saying is, Smash bros has some serious power when it comes to making characters relevant. If Geno had made it in instead of PP, I might have already had the chance to knock that ball around the tennis court as Geno. He could have made an appearance in Mario V Sonic: Dawn of Justice at the Olympic games. I could be racing on the next Star Road with the blue puppet boi. It's technically not too late for him, but it shouldn't be hard to see why others might regard PP with negative bias given the implications of its inclusion. It's simply a difference of opinion.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

See, I would argue your first point, though. I not saying ppl have totally abandoned Piranha Plant, but its user drop-off was far more pronounced than that of Joker. Not only has MKLeo made some serious waves with him, but if you play in and around Elite smash you will still see a lot of them, myself included. One only lasted a week while the other is still going strong after what? Three months? PP was more of a novelty in my opinion. And to Wynn's point, just because PP represents something unique in terms of scope, that doesn't mean it's a good thing. It represents that our expectations, especially mine, have no definitive bottom. It represents that long-standing fan favorites like Geno or a plethora of so many others are considered lower priority than a generic enemy regardless of recognizability. An inclusion like PP says one of four things, period:

A) Sakurai wants Geno but can't get the rights
B) Sakurai doesn't actually give a **** about Geno despite what he says
C) Sakurai wants Geno, can get the rights, but deems him lower priority than a generic enemy WTF character
or
D) Sakurai wants Geno, can get the rights, and is saving him for a massive hype-gasm of DLC because he knows it will sell (much better than PP would have if it had been paid-for DLC)

I sincerely hope that scenario D is the case, however, it is also the most unlikely. Regardless, my point is that PP, despite any uniqueness or character, does not offer ANY positive clues as to whether Geno is going to make it in. People can still enjoy the character, but you have to understand that there are many of us that feel like PP was the exact opposite of Cloud. Rather than expanding the belief of anything being possible, PP instead reminded us all that we can just as easily get something incredibly mundane as well. Then take into account how much hype B-K has brought to the DLC. Could you imagine getting something like Goomba or paratroopa for DLC#5? If such a day ever came, I would bury Geno's chances for good. To be honest, if Geno ends up failing to get in via DLC or otherwise, I would have no choice but to assume we have either scenario A or B.

Oh, and one last thing to consider: Since the creation of PP in smash bros, the once generic enemy has been elevated to full character status in the Mario extended universe. For example, in the new switch version of Mario tennis, they made the standard PP a playable character in ADDITION to Petey Pirahna. That's right. We get to play not just one, BUT TWO varieties of plant. I can pretty much guarantee that the next mario kart will have a piranha plant as a playable driver. What I'm saying is, Smash bros has some serious power when it comes to making characters relevant. If Geno had made it in instead of PP, I might have already had the chance to knock that ball around the tennis court as Geno. He could have made an appearance in Mario V Sonic: Dawn of Justice at the Olympic games. I could be racing on the next Star Road with the blue puppet boi. It's technically not too late for him, but it shouldn't be hard to see why others might regard PP with negative bias given the implications of its inclusion. It's simply a difference of opinion.

I think you're severely overvaluing Geno's ability to just come back. He gets Smash and whatever else Square Enix produces with Nintendo... That's probably all we can ever hope for since the character isn't a first party. He unfortunately doesn't just get to be another Kart racer or a Tennis player with the rest of the Mario family when you have to jump through legal and third party hoops for your first party titles like that which don't pride themselves as much on roster and not at all on crossover potential since only Mario Kart has managed to get even outside the Mario family and none have touched third parties period. Maybe, just maybe, Square Enix would be willing to work out an extended deal with Nintendo for his rights... but again, that's just not how they operate with the Mario spin-off titles and I doubt they're interested in logistically working with third parties like that on the standard run of the mill spin-offs. Geno relies on Square + Nintendo projects to ever find work again. That's basically Smash and any other bigger collaboration they do like the Mario Sports games that Square Enix worked on.

This next part isn't directed specifically at you and isn't meant to be targeted at anyone, just as a response to all of the Plant arguments I've seen around SmashBoards recently and specifically the demonizing of Sakurai, and it's a little more heated than I usually am:

Spoiler: My Plant Rant

And yeah, Piranha Plant was probably more of a priority than Geno. I'm just going to say it outright. But that's entirely Sakurai's priority and there could be about a thousand different factors that play into that decision. I'm not saying you can't criticize the decision, but I am asking that people see what Sakurai saw in Plant as he has clearly outlined in interviews and that we also show a little respect to allow the man to be creative in his own video game. Let him be artistic goddamn it. Even if it pisses off every single Smash fan, the man has worked tirelessly for this fan base. He has not stopped making Smash for 7, going on 8 straight years. He has included numerous fan requests throughout Ultimate and they actually outweigh the non fan requests. He took almost every single criticism to heart in designing Ultimate feature wise. He has worked through exhaustion, hand injuries, and IV drips to make us Smash. He made a game that by all means shouldn't exist in today's gaming landscape and hasn't relentlessly charged us for every feature or anything else.

I get that Smash is a product and we're the people buying, but like I said, this product as it stands shouldn't exist and has zero contemporaries. He has worked his ass off for this game, this franchise, and this fan base. How many hours of our lives have we enjoyed playing, speculating, and discussing Smash. That has all been on Sakurai's watch. The least we can do is entertain one or two characters from his creative ambition so that's he not just another mindless worker checking down the list of fan requests of the ballot. You don't have to like them, but I insist that we give Sakurai a little more credit and respect for his decisions.

 

[Nicnac]

I think you're severely overvaluing Geno's ability to just come back. He gets Smash and whatever else Square Enix produces with Nintendo... That's probably all we can ever hope for since the character isn't a first party. He unfortunately doesn't just get to be another Kart racer or a Tennis player with the rest of the Mario family when you have to jump through legal and third party hoops for your first party titles like that which don't pride themselves as much on roster and not at all on crossover potential since only Mario Kart has managed to get even outside the Mario family and none have touched third parties period. Maybe, just maybe, Square Enix would be willing to work out an extended deal with Nintendo for his rights... but again, that's just not how they operate with the Mario spin-off titles and I doubt they're interested in logistically working with third parties like that on the standard run of the mill spin-offs. Geno relies on Square + Nintendo projects to ever find work again. That's basically Smash and any other bigger collaboration they do like the Mario Sports games that Square Enix worked on.

This next part isn't directed specifically at you and isn't meant to be targeted at anyone, just as a response to all of the Plant arguments I've seen around SmashBoards recently and specifically the demonizing of Sakurai, and it's a little more heated than I usually am:

Spoiler: My Plant Rant

And yeah, Piranha Plant was probably more of a priority than Geno. I'm just going to say it outright. But that's entirely Sakurai's priority and there could be about a thousand different factors that play into that decision. I'm not saying you can't criticize the decision, but I am asking that people see what Sakurai saw in Plant as he has clearly outlined in interviews and that we also show a little respect to allow the man to be creative in his own video game. Let him be artistic goddamn it. Even if it pisses off every single Smash fan, the man has worked tirelessly for this fan base. He has not stopped making Smash for 7, going on 8 straight years. He has included numerous fan requests throughout Ultimate and they actually outweigh the non fan requests. He took almost every single criticism to heart in designing Ultimate feature wise. He has worked through exhaustion, hand injuries, and IV drips to make us Smash. He made a game that by all means shouldn't exist in today's gaming landscape and hasn't relentlessly charged us for every feature or anything else.

I get that Smash is a product and we're the people buying, but like I said, this product as it stands shouldn't exist and has zero contemporaries. He has worked his *** off for this game, this franchise, and this fan base. How many hours of our lives have we enjoyed playing, speculating, and discussing Smash. That has all been on Sakurai's watch. The least we can do is entertain one or two characters from his creative ambition so that's he not just another mindless worker checking down the list of fan requests of the ballot. You don't have to like them, but I insist that we give Sakurai a little more credit and respect for his decisions.

Completely agree. Also #PlantRant teehee

 

[GoodGrief741]

Aye, but if he put in Geno these groups would have been instantly placated? No. Even if he picked one of these instead, that's at least 10 fighter fanbases he'd be pissing off. I don't particularly like Plant either, but if Geno had gotten in instead, these fans wouldn't be satisfied as well. Obviously Geno was more requested than PP, but not only was Plant easier to obtain, Sakurai had his own reasons.

As a far of literally all the characters quoted, their exclusion would have stung much less if it was for an actual character that people actually wanted instead of a troll pick.

 

[xpnc]

You don't have to like them, but I insist that we give Sakurai a little more credit and respect for his decisions.

Disrespectful decisions don't deserve my respect. It's fine to like something or someone without supporting 100% of the decisions they make. You know that, right? If Sakurai decided to cut the original 8 and replace them with anime and cartoon characters, would you still be saying that we give him credit and respect for this decision?

 

[Megadoomer]

If Geno is truly out this time, I'd like to see an interviewer ask Sakurai "Why not this time?". I feel it would give an interesting insight into the mind of Sakurai and why Geno, after 11 years of Sakurai's interest, still isn't in. It would hopefully placate some in the thread with an honest, good reason.

I'm not sure if he'd be able to answer that question, to be honest. He never directly stated why Snake was cut, though the general assumption is that Konami was responsible for that in some way. I'd think that, if Geno didn't make it in, it would be largely due to Square-Enix; Cloud's a series veteran, and Dragon Quest is one of their oldest and most influential series, so it seems like they'd take priority even if there's strong and enduring fan demand for Geno, a character that they own but can rarely if ever use.

On that note, I have no idea how Square-Enix works when it comes to ownership of content. On one hand, they own the rights to the characters that debuted in Super Mario RPG even though those rights are worthless to them, but on the other hand, we can't even get Cloud's Final Fantasy 7 artwork for his spirit, let alone the art for the other party members, and the Dragon Quest composer gets his own credit for the music, which makes me think that the artwork and music are owned by the people who make them, as opposed to being fully owned by Square-Enix.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"Troll pick" is a very unrealistic term. They don't exist in Smash. That would assume the character was picked to troll people, which is the only way it makes sense, but we know for a fact it's a completely different reasoning and simply wasn't a fan pick as well. Apparently just cause it has no fanbase means it's a troll pick? That's completely borked logic and makes literally no sense. However, there is a thing called surprise characters, which are intended to be fun and unique ones. We've also only had two actual joke characters, and one was found to be way better than intended(Jigglypuff) while one got buffed later on to the point they needed to hard nerf it in the same game via updates(Pichu). Nobody else was trollish or jokish as picks beyond those two, however.

Likewise, not every character that has retro-like qualities is actually a retro. Duck Hunt was actually added as the surprise character in 4, but so was Wii Fit Trainer. That's because he not only doesn't follow patterns as is(4 doesn't even have a Retro character added), but likes to bring stuff in that people wouldn't expect to completely change the line-up and create a very diverse roster. Expecting purely fan picks would be assuming development is that simple. But there's always more to it than that.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Disrespectful decisions don't deserve my respect. It's fine to like something or someone without supporting 100% of the decisions they make. You know that, right? If Sakurai decided to cut the original 8 and replace them with anime and cartoon characters, would you still be saying that we give him credit and respect for this decision?

That's a beyond crazy false equivalency and you know it. He added an extremely recognizable video game character from Mario and made a unique character out of the concept along the lines of Ice Climbers, R.O.B., etc. He didn't up end the entire core franchise and break his one rule to make Plant happen like the scenario you're implying. My respect and credit has some limits, but I'm not going to fault him for expressing creativity when he did almost everything else right with Ultimate (except Online). And I generally think Piranha Plant is a super inspired and great addition to the game, so I have no reason not to further credit and respect him for it anyway.

But my point is that Sakurai is a human developer with human wants and creativity beyond just being forced to do exclusively what fans want. You'd have more of a point if every single decision was like Plant, but that couldn't be further from the truth. If we're tossing that human element out the window to be outraged over things like Plant to this degree and being absolutely demanding with regards to fan picks, then we genuinely don't deserve Smash anymore and have officially reached entitlement.

 

[StormC]

Disrespectful decisions don't deserve my respect.

Putting in a plant as a fighter isn't disrespectful. If anything it's probably a ringing endorsement that we take characters in a fighting game way too seriously.

It's one thing to dislike it but saying it's "disrespectful" implies it's some sort of petty slight against fans. It's not. Sakurai thought it'd be funny to put a plant in the game because nobody expected it. That's it. He never once made it his mission statement that every character was going to be some fan favorite that everyone would love (and plenty of people ended up loving Piranha Plant regardless).

Like, coming off of Smash 4? We've had so many pipe dream highly requested characters that were deemed impossible. That game was full of "unexpected" characters, yet for the most part Ultimate has played it pretty safe in comparison. Maybe that's why Plant sticks out more, but I really can't imagine thinking Piranha Plant is disrespectful in the same game where every veteran was brought back and King K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo-Kazooie were added. I think people genuinely do not remember the despair of Smash 4 speculation, where so many community favorites got passed over. Ultimate has been a blessing and a half in comparison. That's not to say we can't still want more characters. But not every character is going to be one "we" want. Characters exist for reasons besides pleasing the hardcore fans that post on forums and vote in internet polls. That's not going to change ever.

 

[xpnc]

But my point is that Sakurai is a human developer with human wants and creativity beyond just being forced to do exclusively what fans want. You'd have more of a point if every single decision was like Plant, but that couldn't be further from the truth. If we're tossing that human element out the window to be outraged over things like Plant to this degree and being absolutely demanding with regards to fan picks, then we genuinely don't deserve Smash anymore and have officially reached entitlement.

Nah. Jar-jar was a stupid thing to add to Star Wars and Piranha Plant was a stupid thing to add to Smash Bros. I'm not going to blindly be happy with everything anyone chooses to do. No one is infallible, end of story.

Like, coming off of Smash 4? We've had so many pipe dream highly requested characters that were deemed impossible. That game was full of "unexpected" characters, yet for the most part Ultimate has played it pretty safe in comparison.

I'm of the opinion that most of the characters added in Smash 4 didn't need to be in the game either so trying to appeal to me like that isn't going to work

 

[EarlTamm]

Nah. Jar-jar was a stupid thing to add to Star Wars and Piranha Plant was a stupid thing to add to Smash Bros. I'm not going to blindly be happy with everything anyone chooses to do. No one is infallible, end of story.

I don't see any connection between these two things besides you having a negative opinion of them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nah. Jar-jar was a stupid thing to add to Star Wars and Piranha Plant was a stupid thing to add to Smash Bros. I'm not going to blindly be happy with everything anyone chooses to do. No one is infallible, end of story.

Let me say this as a legitimate fan of Jar Jar Binks. The most problematic(if the only one closer to a problem) thing he did was be used as a quick excuse to get Palpatine into power. Beyond that? ...What has he done wrong as a person? A single stupid vote is actually it. But then I remember how neat he was in the cartoons, the first character to have a double jump in Lego Star Wars, has become a memetic badass in Robot Chicken(being joked as as a Sith, who literally gave Darth Sidious his powers, though not all skits go with this. Sometimes they just go with "he's annoying till the end of time" instead. Both are valid views/ways to interpret the character, which incidentally is on both ends of the spectrum. Most annoying or most badass), and I'm quite glad he was created in the end.

Of course not everybody likes him, and I get that too. It's kind of neat that spin-off material at least try to make the character somewhat worthwhile in return. Like many other characters that weren't popular among the franchise. In fact, these spin-offs did a lot to make people outright like him. To the point that sometimes they no longer care about his one bad moment. A lot of unpopular characters don't get a chance to become more interesting or unique either, so he's pretty lucky in that regard.

 

[xpnc]

I don't see any connection between these two things besides you having a negative opinion of them.

The connection is that just because someone is a "developer with human wants and creativity beyond just being forced to do exclusively what fans want" doesn't mean that you have to like what they come up with. Only the most contrarian people or rabid George Lucas fanboys would disagree that Jar-jar Binks being added to Star Wars, despite George Lucas's "wants and creativity" actively detracted from the films. The same goes for Piranha Plant in Smash.

Let me say this as a legitimate fan of Jar Jar Binks.

Yeah that about does it for me today I think

 

[EarlTamm]

Anyway, anyone looking forward to American freedom day tomorrow(If you live in America, of course)? I am trying to get out of my shell(i.e. My home) this summer, so tomorrow would be a great day for me to do so.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Anyway, anyone looking forward to American freedom day tomorrow(If you live in America, of course)? I am trying to get out of my shell(i.e. My home) this summer, so tomorrow would be a great day for me to do so.

I just randomly have off. I feel bad for a coworker who should be off instead of me, as it's their birthday. :/ I mean, I'd gladly trade in a day with that person, even if it's a few more hours, so they can enjoy their birthday well.

 

[EarlTamm]

I just randomly have off. I feel bad for a coworker who should be off instead of me, as it's their birthday. :/ I mean, I'd gladly trade in a day with that person, even if it's a few more hours, so they can enjoy their birthday well.

That's a shame. Hopefully they still have a good birthday even with the work.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's a shame. Hopefully they still have a good birthday even with the work.

Indeed. I can't much go into details for various reasons, but yeah, it's a shame and very unfair what's going on.

 

[wynn728]

Spoiler: My Plant Rant

And yeah, Piranha Plant was probably more of a priority than Geno. I'm just going to say it outright. But that's entirely Sakurai's priority and there could be about a thousand different factors that play into that decision. I'm not saying you can't criticize the decision, but I am asking that people see what Sakurai saw in Plant as he has clearly outlined in interviews and that we also show a little respect to allow the man to be creative in his own video game. Let him be artistic goddamn it. Even if it pisses off every single Smash fan, the man has worked tirelessly for this fan base. He has not stopped making Smash for 7, going on 8 straight years. He has included numerous fan requests throughout Ultimate and they actually outweigh the non fan requests. He took almost every single criticism to heart in designing Ultimate feature wise. He has worked through exhaustion, hand injuries, and IV drips to make us Smash. He made a game that by all means shouldn't exist in today's gaming landscape and hasn't relentlessly charged us for every feature or anything else.

I get that Smash is a product and we're the people buying, but like I said, this product as it stands shouldn't exist and has zero contemporaries. He has worked his *** off for this game, this franchise, and this fan base. How many hours of our lives have we enjoyed playing, speculating, and discussing Smash. That has all been on Sakurai's watch. The least we can do is entertain one or two characters from his creative ambition so that's he not just another mindless worker checking down the list of fan requests of the ballot. You don't have to like them, but I insist that we give Sakurai a little more credit and respect for his decisions.

This whole "let Sakurai have one or two characters" is nonsense in defense of Piranha Plant seeing how Joker and Incineroar were all his picks. Sakurai wanted a wrestling character and loved Persona 5. Also we don't need to see what Sakurai saw in Piranha Plant, that's just forcing the audience to comply with the artist which isn't the point of creating a product. The artist makes the art and we give our thoughts, I'm not changing my thought or get in Sakurai's mind just because Sakurai really wanted Piranha Plant to be in the game. I don't care if Piranha Plant was his biggest desire in Smash Bros and working on it was his dream coming true, it's still crap no matter who suggested it. Nobody is perfect and we all got to remember that Sakurai doesn't always have the best ideas when it comes to Smash Bros. Such as tripping, Smash Tour, how you get custom moves, Ganondorf's moveset, Wii U's Classic Mode, Wii U's Stage Builder, The Angry Bird's Break the Target in Smash 4, and all the stage bosses in Smash 4. Sometimes you let the artist do what they want and other times you need to put some restriction on them. Example, many people love the original Star Wars trilogy but when the prequels came out and no one put any restraint on George Lucas it came out as a mess. Sometimes to get the best product you need to take away some creative freedom so the artist don't go off the cliff. Yes, Sakurai put a lot of effort into these games and injury himself because of it, but that doesn't give him a free pass. So enough of this defending Piranha Plant because it was Sakurai's choice. We don't need to understand why he did it, what his intentions were or what value Sakurai saw in Piranha Plant. If we couldn't see it when it was revealed then we're never going to see it and we're going to change our mind just Sakurai doesn't get negative criticism. This was a loss and trying to sugarcoat it is only going to make future Smash Bros games worse because instead of getting Geno or any other characters like Isaac we'll get Monoeye from Kid Icarus, Space Pirate from Metroid, Zora from Link to the Past, Swooping Snitchbug from Pikmin and a barbarian from Fire Emblem as our newcomers.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Anyway, anyone looking forward to American freedom day tomorrow(If you live in America, of course)? I am trying to get out of my shell(i.e. My home) this summer, so tomorrow would be a great day for me to do so.

As much as I dislike "patriotic" stuff in general (and if you're up to date on the news, you'll know this 4th in particular bothers me on a national scale), I do like the gatherings and food that come with it. I don't quite know what I'm doing for this one, but I'm trying to gather some friends up to probably grill out, share a few beers, and such.

I got my lifetime fill of fireworks when I was in Russia for New Years last year though: When you're living in an apartment complex and seemingly everyone around shoots off fireworks from 10 PM to 4 AM with no regard to how close they are to the building... yeah... I don't particularly enjoy fireworks anymore lol.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I like Plant and Jar Jar.

 

[owjies]

Smash Ultimate was pretty darn impressive in terms of appealing to fans imo. Not only did we get a roster with every veteran fighter returning, including Squirtle and Ivysaur, but we also finally welcomed Ridley, K. Rool, and Simon even though Sakurai tried to downplay newcomer expectations. When Sakurai tweeted that Nintendo chose the DLC, the expectation was five promotional picks. Six months later, Joker and Banjo have both been amazing surprises—and there are still two slots left!

We also have that recent quote from Sakurai that acknowledges the positive response these characters generated and his desire to continue with these types of reveals in the future. It’s never going to be 100% fan characters and it never has been. However, there will likely continue to be room on the roster for the Ridleys and Banjos of the future. That’s a reason for optimism, even if it means that Smash 6 is Geno’s next opportunity.

 

[EarlTamm]

As much as I dislike "patriotic" stuff in general (and if you're up to date on the news, you'll know this 4th in particular bothers me on a national scale), I do like the gatherings and food that come with it. I don't quite know what I'm doing for this one, but I'm trying to gather some friends up to probably grill out, share a few beers, and such.

I got my lifetime fill of fireworks when I was in Russia for New Years last year though: When you're living in an apartment complex and seemingly everyone around shoots off fireworks from 10 PM to 4 AM with no regard to how close they are to the building... yeah... I don't particularly enjoy fireworks anymore lol.

Same. Though, I havent gone to a fireworks show in years. The park where my family went for that got new work done that cancelled any big events like that. Still, I hope my family does something neat this year, and the fact that we live in a new location might assist with that.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Same. Though, I havent gone to a fireworks show in years. The park where my family went for that got new work done that cancelled any big events like that. Still, I hope my family does something neat this year, and the fact that we live in a new location might assist with that.

Yeah, lots of places usually have special events on the 4th, so I'd be surprised if you couldn't find something to occupy your time with. And I'm sure if the big place for events was cancelled that some alternative would have popped up around the area. People enjoy their festivities too much for that to not happen.

 

[Firox]

I think you're severely overvaluing Geno's ability to just come back. He gets Smash and whatever else Square Enix produces with Nintendo...

I would say you're severely undervaluing Geno's ability to come back. Sure, the whole third party involvement would realistically hamper his ability to appear in most other Mario spinoffs, however, his inclusion in Smash would EASILY enable a remake or sequel to SMRPG. That alone would be more than worth it to me. It's certainly worth a hell of a lot more than a generic mario enemy appearing in Mario Tennis.

I get that Smash is a product and we're the people buying, but like I said, this product as it stands shouldn't exist and has zero contemporaries. He has worked his *** off for this game, this franchise, and this fan base. How many hours of our lives have we enjoyed playing, speculating, and discussing Smash. That has all been on Sakurai's watch. The least we can do is entertain one or two characters from his creative ambition so that's he not just another mindless worker checking down the list of fan requests of the ballot. You don't have to like them, but I insist that we give Sakurai a little more credit and respect for his decisions.

Nobody (to my knowledge) is trying to impugn Sakurai's work ethic or his ability to take a normally one-dimensional piece of hostile scenery and turn it into an interesting character. I simply care far more about Geno, or Isaac, or virtually any other actual character in existence, than I do for a potted plant with teeth. That's simply my prerogative. I love a lot of things Sakurai has done with the game, others not so much, but criticism is how we improve. Sure, there's ppl out there that worship PP. Good for them. PP was good...but I think Geno would have been WAAAAAY better. I have every right to side with Geno on the GENO SUPPORT THREAD. I'm not trying to bash PP supporters in any way, but if you honestly think PP deserves to be in the game while Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Knuckles, Scizor, Waluigi, etc. are left out in the cold, then maybe you'd feel more at home screaming into the echo chamber of the Plant Gang thread. And that's just a suggestion. I'm not trying to be exclusionary in the least. I'm just curious why so many "Geno supporters" are so content with NOT getting Geno. We may not be the ones choosing who gets in or not, but being content with last place isn't how you win the race.

 

[FalconFire93]

Smash Ultimate was pretty darn impressive in terms of appealing to fans imo. Not only did we get a roster with every veteran fighter returning, including Squirtle and Ivysaur, but we also finally welcomed Ridley, K. Rool, and Simon even though Sakurai tried to downplay newcomer expectations. When Sakurai tweeted that Nintendo chose the DLC, the expectation was five promotional picks. Six months later, Joker and Banjo have both been amazing surprises—and there are still two slots left!

We also have that recent quote from Sakurai that acknowledges the positive response these characters generated and his desire to continue with these types of reveals in the future. It’s never going to be 100% fan characters and it never has been. However, there will likely continue to be room on the roster for the Ridleys and Banjos of the future. That’s a reason for optimism, even if it means that Smash 6 is Geno’s next opportunity.

At this point, I’m in it until the hype train’s wheels fall off and the hype train inevitably rolls off a cliff, hits every rock on the way down and explodes.

 

[StormC]

This whole "let Sakurai have one or two characters" is nonsense in defense of Piranha Plant seeing how Joker and Incineroar were all his picks. Sakurai wanted a wrestling character and loved Persona 5. Also we don't need to see what Sakurai saw in Piranha Plant, that's just forcing the audience to comply with the artist which isn't the point of creating a product. The artist makes the art and we give our thoughts, I'm not changing my thought or get in Sakurai's mind just because Sakurai really wanted Piranha Plant to be in the game. I don't care if Piranha Plant was his biggest desire in Smash Bros and working on it was his dream coming true, it's still crap no matter who suggested it. Nobody is perfect and we all got to remember that Sakurai doesn't always have the best ideas when it comes to Smash Bros. Such as tripping, Smash Tour, how you get custom moves, Ganondorf's moveset, Wii U's Classic Mode, Wii U's Stage Builder, The Angry Bird's Break the Target in Smash 4, and all the stage bosses in Smash 4. Sometimes you let the artist do what they want and other times you need to put some restriction on them. Example, many people love the original Star Wars trilogy but when the prequels came out and no one put any restraint on George Lucas it came out as a mess. Sometimes to get the best product you need to take away some creative freedom so the artist don't go off the cliff. Yes, Sakurai put a lot of effort into these games and injury himself because of it, but that doesn't give him a free pass. So enough of this defending Piranha Plant because it was Sakurai's choice. We don't need to understand why he did it, what his intentions were or what value Sakurai saw in Piranha Plant. If we couldn't see it when it was revealed then we're never going to see it and we're going to change our mind just Sakurai doesn't get negative criticism. This was a loss and trying to sugarcoat it is only going to make future Smash Bros games worse because instead of getting Geno or any other characters like Isaac we'll get Monoeye from Kid Icarus, Space Pirate from Metroid, Zora from Link to the Past, Swooping Snitchbug from Pikmin and a barbarian from Fire Emblem as our newcomers.

Piranha Plant was chosen specifically as the game's token "surprise" character. There isn't going to be a flood of similar characters in future Smash games.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I like Plant and Jar Jar.

This is what's known as Chaotic Evil.

 

[Firox]

This is what's known as Chaotic Evil.

I wasn't sure what "Chaotic Evil" was, so I looked it up and found this:
"Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend."
......amazing how accurate that is. lol

 

[wynn728]

Piranha Plant was chosen specifically as the game's token "surprise" character. There isn't going to be a flood of similar characters in future Smash games.

Who to say. Piranha Plant sets precedents for common enemies to be playable now. If keep being positive about Piranha Plant then Sakurai is going to that as a good thing and more common enemies will become playable over the other. Sakurai could sit down and say "well everyone is okay with their favorites being Assist Trophies and love Piranha Plant. I guess all we can just keep making those characters as Assist and start putting more common enemies in instead." Well get this whole mess again because people want to support their "funny" joke of a character that is Piranha Plant.

 

[TheCJBrine]

This is what's known as Chaotic Evil.

I wasn't sure what "Chaotic Evil" was, so I looked it up and found this:
"Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend."
......amazing how accurate that is. lol

I'd rather not be considered as such.

Plant may be bad in y'all's opinions, but I like Plant and would also like Bulborb. Sakurai likely wanted something other than a hero or main villain so he went with the plant. I doubt it stole Geno's spot, or Isaac's spot, or whoever else's spot, or that Sakurai considered them for the same spot as Plant in the first place.

 

[Firox]

I'd rather not be considered as such.

Plant may be bad in y'all's opinions, but I like Plant and would also like Bulborb. Sakurai likely wanted something other than a hero or main villain so he went with the plant. I doubt it stole Geno's spot, or Isaac's spot, or whoever else's spot, or that Sakurai considered them for the same spot as Plant in the first place.

Yeah, Geno's pretty overrated. I think it'd be awesome if we had Question Block in Smash. It's so recognizable. Everyone knows it and its moveset would be totally off the hook. Or bokoblin. I absolutely LOVED him in Breath of the Wild. Oh, or what about one of those little Korok guys with the leaf faces?! I'm sure Sakurai is just itching to flex that creativity in the next smash. I can't wait!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, I thought it was applied the second any Pokemon was added. They're common enemies too in the end. Made even worse when some Pokemon didn't get added due to the anime, where they're not actually nearly as common, but fleshed out.

It's a good precedent. It just means tons more video game choices to add in. But being a surprise character, it doesn't set much of anything either, as it's not intended to be a common thing, but the thing you wouldn't really expect often because then it would stop being a surprise.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Yeah, Geno's pretty overrated. I think it'd be awesome if we had Question Block in Smash. It's so recognizable. Everyone knows it and its moveset would be totally off the hook. Or bokoblin. I absolutely LOVED him in Breath of the Wild. Oh, or what about one of those little Korok guys with the leaf faces?! I'm sure Sakurai is just itching to flex that creativity in the next smash. I can't wait!

Cut the bad sarcasm, I really like Geno. But this is just stupid. Y'all can dislike Plant but bashing Sakurai for something that's unlikely and bashing anyone who does like Plant is dumb; it's y'all's opinion that enemies are bad, not a fact.

I'd personally choose a Deku Scrub or one of the 'fos over a bokoblin, but Skull Kid before any other Zelda character.

 

[Nicnac]

Who to say. Piranha Plant sets precedents for common enemies to be playable now. If keep being positive about Piranha Plant then Sakurai is going to that as a good thing and more common enemies will become playable over the other. Sakurai could sit down and say "well everyone is okay with their favorites being Assist Trophies and love Piranha Plant. I guess all we can just keep making those characters as Assist and start putting more common enemies in instead." Well get this whole mess again because people want to support their "funny" joke of a character that is Piranha Plant.

Well yeah, PP opens up a new set of fighters. But honestly I'm not that bothered by that because it's not like every new fighter is a generic enemy, and if other "generic enemy fighters" are designed as well as PP, I don't mind. I'd also like to note that Nintendo are now aware of the assist backlash (particularly with Isaac) , and hence aren't likely to slam generic enemy fighters as much, if ever again. Sakurai makes a character that for once, HE wanted to make, as opposed to fan favourites that he may not have as much interest in and the plant gets hate. The same rules apply almost exactly to Joker. And PP is pretty funny tbh. The mannerisms of the plant kinda remind me of an overactive, incredibly emotionally varied chihuahua.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The bashing and flaming are getting a bit much. Let's dial it back, please.

And this'll be applied after this post, but please try to be civil towards another. Also, bashing isn't the same as detracting alone. Bashing is pretty much intended to annoy people instead of giving constructive criticism. Bashing is generally treated as trolling, so let's please move on or return to a more healthy form of debate(that doesn't mean change the subject, just the way the argument is going).

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I would say you're severely undervaluing Geno's ability to come back. Sure, the whole third party involvement would realistically hamper his ability to appear in most other Mario spinoffs, however, his inclusion in Smash would EASILY enable a remake or sequel to SMRPG. That alone would be more than worth it to me. It's certainly worth a hell of a lot more than a generic mario enemy appearing in Mario Tennis.

Nobody (to my knowledge) is trying to impugn Sakurai's work ethic or his ability to take a normally one-dimensional piece of hostile scenery and turn it into an interesting character. I simply care far more about Geno, or Isaac, or virtually any other actual character in existence, than I do for a potted plant with teeth. That's simply my prerogative. I love a lot of things Sakurai has done with the game, others not so much, but criticism is how we improve. Sure, there's ppl out there that worship PP. Good for them. PP was good...but I think Geno would have been WAAAAAY better. I have every right to side with Geno on the GENO SUPPORT THREAD. I'm not trying to bash PP supporters in any way, but if you honestly think PP deserves to be in the game while Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Knuckles, Scizor, Waluigi, etc. are left out in the cold, then maybe you'd feel more at home screaming into the echo chamber of the Plant Gang thread. And that's just a suggestion. I'm not trying to be exclusionary in the least. I'm just curious why so many "Geno supporters" are so content with NOT getting Geno. We may not be the ones choosing who gets in or not, but being content with last place isn't how you win the race.

First off, I was only talking about Geno's ability to come back outside of Square Enix related projects. He could easily come back in a Super Mario RPG sequel or remake, but only in Square Enix related properties since he is owned by them. That's really all there was to that part of my comment.

Spoiler: Plant Rant 2: The Final

As for Piranha Plant, it's specifically boiling down the issues people have with that character and how they use it to justify specific comments on Sakurai's ineptitude or terrible decision making. We, at absolute worst, have 3 Sakurai picks in Ultimate. Incineroar (we were getting a Pokemon, so not really his pick, just the choice of Pokemon), Piranha Plant, and Joker (who also comes from one of the most respected JRPG franchises ever and the gold standard for modern JRPGs, so again...). Everything else has generally fan demand or beloved characters. Since Piranha Plant is by far the most passion project type of character in the game, when you sit around and criticize this character for not being one of the requested characters, you are saying, "I don't care about his creativity as a video game developer and I would prefer if he only makes the fan requests." You're basically throwing all creativity out the window for the roster in favor of just a bunch of standard ballot picks that Sakurai will just check off the list. If you've ever worked with a creative medium, then you know, that's stifling at best and downright soul crushing at worst.

Piranha Plant deserves to be in the game because Sakurai wanted him. That's all there is to it. He did a **** ton of fan fulfillment with Ultimate in every other conceivable area of the game. If people are unwilling to compromise and give him one personal pick, then we're really pushing into unreasonable territory. Sakurai has been committed to adding things people didn't even know they wanted since the original Super Smash Bros. Plant is a valuable part of that legacy. We got Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer, and Plant before any of those characters (and before many others at the time of their releases (Game and Watch got in before King Dedede, Wario, Diddy Kong, and so on). It's a fundamental part of the series identity that people should expect by now. This is his franchise and we all buy into it if we believe in the product. And so far, we've astoundingly bought into the franchise with every entry.

There will always be people left out and not everything is going to be tailored specifically to your tastes. If you love a bunch of parts of the game, great, enjoy the game that we have then and don't criticize the character that clearly wasn't made for you in the first place for not being even more of what you wanted. People against Plant aren't saying, "This is unacceptable" to some real world issue or some legitimate breach of trust that we should deem problematic. They're saying this about one character of a soon to be 82 character roster for not appealing to them when it does others. This has nothing to do with "improvement." It has everything to do with difference in opinion and people continually frame Plant's place on the roster as an objective problem instead of a subjective one.

As for Geno, it's not that I'm content with him not getting in, it's just the current reality that he isn't and there's a massive game of Smash Ultimate to enjoy anyway that has already checked off so many of the fan request boxes and so much more. I want him as a playable character, but I'm way past the point of throwing a fit every time a character that isn't him or is "less deserving" (whatever the hell that means) gets in. I see the positive ways to push for Geno in Smash and will continue to do that going forward. We need to quit trying to "side" with specific things all of the time. Geno vs Piranha Plant isn't some intrinsic thing that we have to take a side on, those situations are way more complicated than that and we know so little about Geno's situation that it's really hard to define things. He's always been in a tough spot and I'm able to acknowledge that and carry on with whatever happens. Obviously I hope he gets in. If he doesn't, we'll give it another try in Smash 6 (7??? Damn it Sakurai and your numbering conventions for Smash).

As for the mooks? I'd love to see more of them. Slime, Boo, a Tetromino, hell, even Sandbag. Give me creative movesets for characters and I'll eat that **** up haha.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

EricTheGamerman Just to point out, Sakurai doesn't choose a Pokemon out of obligation or being forced too. He asks TPC and/or Gamefreak for suggestions instead. He wants to add a new Pokemon in itself. I mean, it's a massive franchise and can easily have hundreds of choices that are viable for Smash. Which is why he needs a bit of help from them to see who is hot. However, for 4 and Ultimate, he ignored that factor and set a slot aside, then asking Gamefreak for concept art. So it's not about guarantees, patterns, or anything like that. It's just he likes the idea, and attempts to go for it. If no Pokemon worked out from the latest Gen, he might just forego one altogether. Incineroar was completely a Sakurai pick, from start to finish. Best could be argued that he was slightly lead to choosing specific ones, but he was never forced to outright say yes in any instance. How the Pokemon is represented is a completely different story, as TPC is very picky. Gamefreak likes to give Sakurai control, though.

 

[N3ON]

I think the telling sign that people are really only defending PP simply because he's in the game is that while Snake's inclusion prompted more third-party requests, Greninja's inclusion prompted more starter requests, Cloud's inclusion prompted less Nintendo-oriented requests, Daisy's inclusion prompted more echo requests, PP's inclusion has not prompted more requests for random playable grunts.

I suspect that's due to people not seeing those kind of additions as what Smash is really about. They clearly haven't made noise about getting more.

Now I'm not saying that people don't genuinely like him now, and all in all this war of opinion is pretty pointless, but he is kind of proof that at the end of the day, people will glom on to and defend basically whoever ends up on that roster.