Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[EricTheGamerman]

I'm sorry but your comparisons are way off base here. Both Master chief and Doomslayer are super soldiers in green power armor that use guns. That's pretty freaking similar. Similar enough that I heavily doubt that the public at large would think they're significantly different, back stories aside. They certainly have way more in common than Roy and Corrin. Corrin has by far one of the most unique movesets among the FE characters. Even visually speaking, the only think Corrin has in common with Roy is a sword. Yeah, not even close to a good comparison to MC and DS. Joker and Hero are night and day as well despite both being in JRPGs. Your argument on this one just doesn't hold water.

As for the rest of your points, it kind of feels like you're back pedaling. You argue that the "smash bubble" is small and that Geno is questionably relevant, yet the "vocal minority" can still generate noticeable change and create relevance. I never said that Geno has "huge general appeal", I'm just saying that he has more going for him with respect to Sakurai/Nintendo visibility than many other characters out there. If you disagree, so be it. I don't have time to waste arguing about it.

Yes, Doom Guy and Master Chief are visually similar super soldiers that use guns in a popular FPS game. There's a ton that separates them once you get past that distinction that isn't actually that important. They're incredibly different characters from very different games with very different focuses and very different people that absolutely adore both of them. People know Doom and Halo incredibly well and are able to recognize their differences and wouldn't have a problem with both of them being in. I'm not even saying that they will both definitively get in, but I am saying there's no reason they can't both get in for crying out loud. You choose to represent two different and incredibly important legacies to modern gaming with them.

My point with Roy and Corrin was that they had no issue releasing two Fire Emblem characters in the same DLC season that use swords and are mostly "anime-looking protagonists" that people have ragged on for ages. People say all the Fire Emblem characters look the same, hence my decision to point them out. It's proof that they can approach similar character ideas and approach them in different ways and include them both in Smash. Joker and Hero was to point out the fact that they're both "anime-looking protagonists from JRPGs" that people frequently rail against as being too similar and also to point out that just because characters come from the same genre and share physical form in some way doesn't mean they can't both get into the game. All you have to say is Doom Guy and Master Chief look similar (regardless of the rest of their contexts that are incredibly important to character inclusions) and say that Sakurai will totally add only one of them. I mean, we have 3 Links, 3 characters that are based off of Marth, and so on. This isn't an actual problem that would limit any inclusion in Smash.

And I'm not backpedaling, you're still just failing to understand what I'm saying I'm saying Nintendo markets to lots of different parts of the entire Smash population and not just the bubble. They still market to the bubble at different points, but they're not going to exclusively cater to that audience and there should be considerations that characters appeal to certain audiences and thus have different reasons for inclusion and different chances for inclusion. And that Smash polls are not everything. I'm responding to the line you had in your very first post of, "I really don't feel there are that many more notable video game characters out there to compete with." A presumption I heavily disagreed with given how many much more notable characters there are out there than Geno (not in the Smash bubble context, I'm talking about more broadly to the population of Smash players and the general public). Then you went on to state this; "none of the characters you've listed comes close to Geno in terms of 'notable.'" This is after I listed characters like Sora, Crash Bandicoot, Lara Croft, et al. That was something I clearly took issue with as well and pointed out that you were thinking too far from in the position of the "Smash bubble" in making such a statement in addition to pointing out you had to use a whole bunch of qualifiers to make Geno "more notable." Your post again had "notable" defined around, and I quote; "in the context of the official smash poll, recent events, Mii costumes, and the words out of freaking Sakurai himself." That I really took issue with because you're twisting a definition to fit your desired narrative and also selectively choosing elements in order to prop up Geno's chances. Geno mostly has some circumstanial recent events, but nothing official. Meanwhile a character like Crash Bandicoot, a character I proposed and then you said doesn't come close to Geno in terms of "notable" has actually had a rebirth and two massively successful remakes of classic games with Activision hinting at his future. The Doom games have all been released on Switch recently and Bethesda is buddy-buddy with Nintendo right now. You see how those recent events are of a different worth than Geno's circumstantial "Super Mario RPG got mentioned a couple of times by Nintendo?" Geno's popularity only generally works with your specific definition of "notable" under these criteria that also require ignoring lots of compelling evidence that other characters have in certain areas.

As for the vocal minority of the "Smash Bubble," I'm once again, saying that Nintendo listens to lots of different fan bases and will appeal to many of them in different ways. Thus the "Smash bubble" can enact change whenever Nintendo is specifically looking to cater to those fans. Different opportunities will come for that sort of thing in Smash in general. I constantly emphasized that fan support had a place in Smash, just not a "widespread" or necessarily "relevant" place to speak.

If you don't want to argue with me, you don't have to. Geno has plenty of good stuff going for him without having to manipulate definitions or overstate his "likelihood" and/or "importance." He's a niche character that is popular within the "core Smash fan base" and liked by Sakurai, and if you want to appeal to the niche of the "core Smash fan base" so to speak, he's a great candidate. That doesn't say anything negative about his character and it doesn't devalue the real support that he has within that community and nothing I've said has done anything close to that.

 

[Firox]

And I'm not backpedaling, you're still just failing to understand what I'm saying I'm saying Nintendo markets to lots of different parts of the entire Smash population and not just the bubble. They still market to the bubble at different points, but they're not going to exclusively cater to that audience and there should be considerations that characters appeal to certain audiences and thus have different reasons for inclusion and different chances for inclusion. And that Smash polls are not everything. I'm responding to the line you had in your very first post of, "I really don't feel there are that many more notable video game characters out there to compete with." A presumption I heavily disagreed with given how many much more notable characters there are out there than Geno (not in the Smash bubble context, I'm talking about more broadly to the population of Smash players and the general public). Then you went on to state this; "none of the characters you've listed comes close to Geno in terms of 'notable.'" This is after I listed characters like Sora, Crash Bandicoot, Lara Croft, et al. That was something I clearly took issue with as well and pointed out that you were thinking too far from in the position of the "Smash bubble" in making such a statement in addition to pointing out you had to use a whole bunch of qualifiers to make Geno "more notable." Your post again had "notable" defined around, and I quote; "in the context of the official smash poll, recent events, Mii costumes, and the words out of freaking Sakurai himself." That I really took issue with because you're twisting a definition to fit your desired narrative and also selectively choosing elements in order to prop up Geno's chances. Geno mostly has some circumstanial recent events, but nothing official. Meanwhile a character like Crash Bandicoot, a character I proposed and then you said doesn't come close to Geno in terms of "notable" has actually had a rebirth and two massively successful remakes of classic games with Activision hinting at his future. The Doom games have all been released on Switch recently and Bethesda is buddy-buddy with Nintendo right now. You see how those recent events are of a different worth than Geno's circumstantial "Super Mario RPG got mentioned a couple of times by Nintendo?" Geno's popularity only generally works with your specific definition of "notable" under these criteria that also require ignoring lots of compelling evidence that other characters have in certain areas.

I'm well aware of what you were trying to say. You were saying that Nintendo is still willing to market DLC outside of the "smash bubble" but what you don't seem to get from MY comments is that you're underselling the INFLUENCE of the "smash bubble". Also, as you so nicely copied in bold, "I really don't feel there are that many more notable video game characters out there to compete with." Not sure why that phrase has you so bent out of shape since it's literally just my opinion which you are more than welcome to disagree with. Also note that I said "that many more". That's a relative number, not a finite one. It could be 10, 20, whatever, but I certainly wouldn't say 50 or more. If you think there are actually that many "notable" characters competing with Geno, you're welcome to believe that too but I think that's simply incorrect. I think your real hang-up is on my usage of the word "notable" which I will admit is a very debatable term. One that I see no point arguing in circles with you over since one man's "relevant" is another man's "who?".

Next, you took offense to the statement of Geno's notoriety when I said, "in the context of the official smash poll, recent event, Mii costumes, and the words out of freaking Sakurai himself." You can downplay the facts to fit your narrative all you want, but Geno has more evidence in his favor than any of the other characters you named. Sorry, but it's true. I'm not propping up Geno's chances any more than you trivialize them. Again, you're getting a little too bent out of shape over the definition of "notable" which was ill-defined in the first place. In your case, you seem to define "notable" as characters whose games or franchises have current and/or modern releases. I would argue that "notable" in the context of Smash bros has more to it than that. Sakurai values HISTORIC importance as much as modern, and B-K is living proof that the "vocal minority" in the Smash fanbase can still have at least some influence on his decisions. Because the current fighter's pass seems to be focused on third parties, I can understand why you think there are so many possibles to compete with. I'll grant you that characters like Sora, Crash, Master Chief, etc. definitely have a shot...for THIS pass. But realize the fact that we don't know if the next batch of fighters will follow the same pattern. If the next batch ends up being 100% based off the smash polls, for example, then Geno's chances would skyrocket compared to the army of random third-parties out there. Or what if the next batch ended up being 1st party only? Then all your "notable" third-parties would have their chances drop to zero. And before you fixate on the notion, this is just a speculatory example. I honestly doubt the next batch would be like that, but my point is that you seem to be ignoring all the positive signs in favor of Geno. We've gone over them ad nauseum so I won't bother to regale you. Meanwhile, what "evidence" do you have in favor of any other third-parties other than more recent game releases? Nintendo being "buddy-buddy" with their parent company? Last I recall, wasn't SE looking pretty friendly these days? We've already got two of their posterboys. Regardless, I'd rather let history be our judge. Rather than debating our takes on what makes a character "notable", I'll simply wait and see what Sakurai decides since the choice is ultimately his anyway.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Only if one of his victory poses is this.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Funny you mention that! I actually do think they could do something like that but made not so jokingly. I think one of its victory poses would be it standing smugly while twirling the end of the lance a little bit while holding it outward in a striking pose. I can't find a video with the motion I mean but I guess I'll have to doodle it to demonstrate what I mean.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'm well aware of what you were trying to say. You were saying that Nintendo is still willing to market DLC outside of the "smash bubble" but what you don't seem to get from MY comments is that you're underselling the INFLUENCE of the "smash bubble". Also, as you so nicely copied in bold, "I really don't feel there are that many more notable video game characters out there to compete with." Not sure why that phrase has you so bent out of shape since it's literally just my opinion which you are more than welcome to disagree with. Also note that I said "that many more". That's a relative number, not a finite one. It could be 10, 20, whatever, but I certainly wouldn't say 50 or more. If you think there are actually that many "notable" characters competing with Geno, you're welcome to believe that too but I think that's simply incorrect. I think your real hang-up is on my usage of the word "notable" which I will admit is a very debatable term. One that I see no point arguing in circles with you over since one man's "relevant" is another man's "who?".

Next, you took offense to the statement of Geno's notoriety when I said, "in the context of the official smash poll, recent event, Mii costumes, and the words out of freaking Sakurai himself." You can downplay the facts to fit your narrative all you want, but Geno has more evidence in his favor than any of the other characters you named. Sorry, but it's true. I'm not propping up Geno's chances any more than you trivialize them. Again, you're getting a little too bent out of shape over the definition of "notable" which was ill-defined in the first place. In your case, you seem to define "notable" as characters whose games or franchises have current and/or modern releases. I would argue that "notable" in the context of Smash bros has more to it than that. Sakurai values HISTORIC importance as much as modern, and B-K is living proof that the "vocal minority" in the Smash fanbase can still have at least some influence on his decisions. Because the current fighter's pass seems to be focused on third parties, I can understand why you think there are so many possibles to compete with. I'll grant you that characters like Sora, Crash, Master Chief, etc. definitely have a shot...for THIS pass. But realize the fact that we don't know if the next batch of fighters will follow the same pattern. If the next batch ends up being 100% based off the smash polls, for example, then Geno's chances would skyrocket compared to the army of random third-parties out there. Or what if the next batch ended up being 1st party only? Then all your "notable" third-parties would have their chances drop to zero. And before you fixate on the notion, this is just a speculatory example. I honestly doubt the next batch would be like that, but my point is that you seem to be ignoring all the positive signs in favor of Geno. We've gone over them ad nauseum so I won't bother to regale you. Meanwhile, what "evidence" do you have in favor of any other third-parties other than more recent game releases? Nintendo being "buddy-buddy" with their parent company? Last I recall, wasn't SE looking pretty friendly these days? We've already got two of their posterboys. Regardless, I'd rather let history be our judge. Rather than debating our takes on what makes a character "notable", I'll simply wait and see what Sakurai decides since the choice is ultimately his anyway.

All these things you say I don't address, I've already addressed in my posts. I don't even think you're arguing in good faith with how many strawmen you keep bringing in that aren't pertinent to the conversation or what I've been saying, and then having stuff like your comment that your initial comments on Geno could totally be interpreted differently because you didn't say a specific number even though context communicated something very different and intentional. You keep coming at me with my "ignoring positive signs of Geno" when I have constantly reiterated I believe in his chances and I believe there is some circumstantial evidence to his inclusion that varies from the circumstantial evidence we see for other characters.

Let's just be done here.

 

[Vector Victor]

So we're probably done with official Smash news until November. Odds are character 5 will be at the game awards as that's early December, which was the common month people speculated.

Maybe a sneak peak of the next character at the Awards like Mewtwo.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

So we're probably done with official Smash news until November. Odds are character 5 will be at the game awards as that's early December, which was the common month people speculated.

Maybe a sneak peak of the next character at the Awards like Mewtwo.

I really really doubt we're going to have any more sneak peaks. I think Sakurai knows the power of full reveals and will always go for them. I think we're actually somewhat likely to get #5 in November and then a reveal of DLC Character #7 at The Game Awards since I predict the pass will end somewhat more safe and then they'll want to kick off hype for the next round of DLC, especially if they decide to do a second Fighter's Pass.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

How's this?

 

[Firox]

All these things you say I don't address, I've already addressed in my posts. I don't even think you're arguing in good faith with how many strawmen you keep bringing in that aren't pertinent to the conversation or what I've been saying, and then having stuff like your comment that your initial comments on Geno could totally be interpreted differently because you didn't say a specific number even though context communicated something very different and intentional. You keep coming at me with my "ignoring positive signs of Geno" when I have constantly reiterated I believe in his chances and I believe there is some circumstantial evidence to his inclusion that varies from the circumstantial evidence we see for other characters.

Let's just be done here.

Since you continue to hand-wave my points, we might as well be done here. I counter you with pertinent examples that you call strawmen and when I call you out on projecting your own definitions of what I've said the best you can do is claim it's not in good faith? Speak for yourself. Anyways, it's Friday night and I've got better things to do than debate this. Enjoy the thread.

 

[YsDisciple]

I just noticed that Terry's character icon is a star. If Geno's potentially in the game then... what would his character icon be? Seeing as Terry's is a star (skewed of course), and Kirby's, King Dedede, and Meta Knight's is also a star (slightly tilted to the left), would Geno's be a star (centered), or... a Mushroom (same one as Mario's)? Now that I noticed... having two star character icons feels a bit off. It's fine if it's for characters from the same series, but from two completely different game series (and genres)... dunno. I know Terry's is because of his signature jacket, but still.

Don't mind me.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I just noticed that Terry's character icon is a star. If Geno's potentially in the game then... what would his character icon be? Seeing as Terry's is a star (skewed of course), and Kirby's, King Dedede, and Meta Knight's is also a star (slightly tilted to the left), would Geno's be a star (centered), or... a Mushroom (same one as Mario's)? Now that I noticed... having two star character icons feels a bit off. It's fine if it's for characters from the same series, but from two completely different game series (and genres)... dunno. I know Terry's is because of his signature jacket, but still.

Don't mind me.

Geno's icon in game is already listed as a mushroom.

 

[YsDisciple]

Oh yeah. Whoops. Dunno why I forgot about that.

 

[ForsakenM]

Since you continue to hand-wave my points, we might as well be done here. I counter you with pertinent examples that you call strawmen and when I call you out on projecting your own definitions of what I've said the best you can do is claim it's not in good faith? Speak for yourself. Anyways, it's Friday night and I've got better things to do than debate this. Enjoy the thread.

Not to be super rude to EricTheGamerman but sometimes the angles he comes from are super odd. Many have called him contrarian and whatnot but I'd rather not throw out a word to label him.

It feels like that, sometimes, Eric likes to argue the side of points that seem super irrelevant and VERY niche. For example, we argued about basic demographic and minority representation in Smash. He thinks (from what I can gather, I may be wrong) that there needs to be more representation of minorities and the like while I think none of that matters and we just need more characters people want and if people REALLY want those kinds of characters we will get them eventually because demand for them will be high. In that instance, he is putting the demographics of a character over the fan demand of characters in terms of importance, and I think that's just silly.

We don't need more females in Smash. We don't need more blacks or native americans or homosexuals or animals anything that basic.

We just need characters that people love. If they also happen to be one of those I listed above, then bully for them.

This argument seems to be that Eric is arguing that there are games outside of Smash that are big, and while he isn't wrong, he is completely missing the point that it doesn't matter if they are big if Smash fans don't ask for it. Terry is a perfect example of Eric being both right and wrong: Terry is from Fatal Fury/KoF and SNK which exists in a realm outside of Smash that has a big history, yet Smash fans mostly don't give two ****s about Terry because they never asked for him (majority speaking, of course).

So, on one hand, YES characters from outside the 'Smash bubble' can be big and have a history and therefore could technically be considered for Smash based off that...but on the OTHER hand, look at all the characters we have and how many of them exist due to that 'Smash bubble.' Terry is this perfect blend of 'big outside of Smash' and 'history with Smash/part of the Smash bubble' though some may argue which side he leans more towards.

I would disagree with some of his suggestions though. I would say there IS a finite list of characters that are possible for Smash and that the 'Smash bubble' has a huge sway on who is part of that list. If the consumers of the product don't want a feature, you don't put it in. If Smash fans aren't talking about a character, their chances drop considerably. That, and the level of 'iconic appeal' is running low for video game characters. The amount of character who were the first of a genre or are loved by one and all across the globe is running low and as big as Gears of War or Borderlands or Dead Space or any of these big titles with character people love are...they don't have any demand, or at best very little.

Sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don't. Such as life, really.

Drawing back from the 'fan demand > demographics' argument, characters like Lloyd still have a chance and it irks me just as much when someone says 'Not this character because of x biased reason that makes no sense.'

Example? All the Terry hate about him being human or male or even being a fighting game character. Him being human and male has nothing to do with gameplay, the most important part, and him being a fighting game character means he will fit perfectly. Sure, it will be easy to transition him over and there is little imagination to his moveset, but you STILL have no idea how he will play until you get your hands on him.

Lloyd is this new wave I dislike. 'Not another animu swordsman even though he can bring something completely new to the table and has so much unique stuff to offer, I don't want him because animu style!' Imagine writing off a character based off looks and not gameplay. That's just as bad as writing off a person based on looks and not the substance of their personality. Whatever happened to not judging books by their covers? I digress...

I think Lloyd is a perfect choice for the pass. It fits color theory for Lloyd to have an orange background because Namco, he's a fan demanded character and would give Namco a long-awaited second rep. Seems more likely than Doomguy by a large margin.
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Oh, and for those losing it over Sans, here is a day-ruiner for you. You deserve it for acting like Mii Fighters don't exist.

No Fun Sans Sans (Everyone is Home) @tobyfox#SmashBros #SmashBrosUltimate #Undertale #Sans #nintendo #NintendoSwitch pic.twitter.com/7EE5O6KYt5

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) September 18, 2019

 

[AdamBel731]

I just noticed that Terry's character icon is a star. If Geno's potentially in the game then... what would his character icon be? Seeing as Terry's is a star (skewed of course), and Kirby's, King Dedede, and Meta Knight's is also a star (slightly tilted to the left), would Geno's be a star (centered), or... a Mushroom (same one as Mario's)? Now that I noticed... having two star character icons feels a bit off. It's fine if it's for characters from the same series, but from two completely different game series (and genres)... dunno. I know Terry's is because of his signature jacket, but still.

Don't mind me.

If Travis Touchdown gets in the game (I really want him to) his series icon would likely be the shattered star seen on a lot of inconogroahy in the No More Heroes games.

As an aside, I think Travis Touchdown is a character many are possibly sleeping on. He seems like a character that would blindside people if included in SSBU. Honestly though, I think it could happen. He's essentially like Bayonetta's relationship to Nintendo, but even closer. His creator (Goichi Suda) loves Nintendo, likes to have his games on Nintendo consoles (all No More Heroes games have been on Nintendo consoles), and has actively said he wants Travis in Smash. He even said that he was going to directly ask Sakurai for Travis in Smash when the next Smash game happens (this was already when Fighters Pass DLC was decided). It seems like Nintendo and his company have a great relationship. Travis seems like Bayonetta in how not many people we necessarily talking about him (compared to popular picks like Geno, Sora, etc.), but his inclusion would make a lot of sense I feel.

If Suda truly does ask Sakurai for him in the game, I don't really see a scenario where Sakurai or Nintendo would say no. And no, I haven't brought up him being a rated M character because... all you'd have to do is just not have him cuss. Unlike Bayonetta with her sexual design, Snake with his weapons, Doom Slayer with his violence, etc., Travis doesn't really have a crutch against him that (presumably) would stop him from coming to Smash (btw I think Doom Slayer is likely). Travis would have a cool moveset too with his beam katana. Sure Travis is a bit niche, but that hasn't stopped Sakurai before. Heck Travis could not only be a legacy character, but also a promotional one since No More Heroes 3 is coming out. Plus Suda wants the put the first two NMH games in Switch as well, so Travis could make sense in the advertising sense too. Hey, I could be totally wrong about this, but if there are like 10 more characters, this definitely seems like the type of unexpected pick Sakurai would go for.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Oh, and for those losing it over Sans, here is a day-ruiner for you. You deserve it for acting like Mii Fighters don't exist.

Pretty sure those people are joking since you can’t see the mii at all and no one expected him even if they wanted him as a fighter (which I wanted him as a fighter too).

 

[D0ct0r]

Do you guys think Spirits deconfirm? I've been seeing a lot of people say Geno isn't happening because of his Spirit.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Not to be super rude to EricTheGamerman but sometimes the angles he comes from are super odd. Many have called him contrarian and whatnot but I'd rather not throw out a word to label him.

It feels like that, sometimes, Eric likes to argue the side of points that seem super irrelevant and VERY niche. For example, we argued about basic demographic and minority representation in Smash. He thinks (from what I can gather, I may be wrong) that there needs to be more representation of minorities and the like while I think none of that matters and we just need more characters people want and if people REALLY want those kinds of characters we will get them eventually because demand for them will be high. In that instance, he is putting the demographics of a character over the fan demand of characters in terms of importance, and I think that's just silly.

We don't need more females in Smash. We don't need more blacks or native americans or homosexuals or animals anything that basic.

We just need characters that people love. If they also happen to be one of those I listed above, then bully for them.

This argument seems to be that Eric is arguing that there are games outside of Smash that are big, and while he isn't wrong, he is completely missing the point that it doesn't matter if they are big if Smash fans don't ask for it. Terry is a perfect example of Eric being both right and wrong: Terry is from Fatal Fury/KoF and SNK which exists in a realm outside of Smash that has a big history, yet Smash fans mostly don't give two ****s about Terry because they never asked for him (majority speaking, of course).

So, on one hand, YES characters from outside the 'Smash bubble' can be big and have a history and therefore could technically be considered for Smash based off that...but on the OTHER hand, look at all the characters we have and how many of them exist due to that 'Smash bubble.' Terry is this perfect blend of 'big outside of Smash' and 'history with Smash/part of the Smash bubble' though some may argue which side he leans more towards.

I would disagree with some of his suggestions though. I would say there IS a finite list of characters that are possible for Smash and that the 'Smash bubble' has a huge sway on who is part of that list. If the consumers of the product don't want a feature, you don't put it in. If Smash fans aren't talking about a character, their chances drop considerably. That, and the level of 'iconic appeal' is running low for video game characters. The amount of character who were the first of a genre or are loved by one and all across the globe is running low and as big as Gears of War or Borderlands or Dead Space or any of these big titles with character people love are...they don't have any demand, or at best very little.

Sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don't. Such as life, really.

Drawing back from the 'fan demand > demographics' argument, characters like Lloyd still have a chance and it irks me just as much when someone says 'Not this character because of x biased reason that makes no sense.'

Example? All the Terry hate about him being human or male or even being a fighting game character. Him being human and male has nothing to do with gameplay, the most important part, and him being a fighting game character means he will fit perfectly. Sure, it will be easy to transition him over and there is little imagination to his moveset, but you STILL have no idea how he will play until you get your hands on him.

Lloyd is this new wave I dislike. 'Not another animu swordsman even though he can bring something completely new to the table and has so much unique stuff to offer, I don't want him because animu style!' Imagine writing off a character based off looks and not gameplay. That's just as bad as writing off a person based on looks and not the substance of their personality. Whatever happened to not judging books by their covers? I digress...

I think Lloyd is a perfect choice for the pass. It fits color theory for Lloyd to have an orange background because Namco, he's a fan demanded character and would give Namco a long-awaited second rep. Seems more likely than Doomguy by a large margin.

Well, unsurprisingly, I don't think my angles for things are that odd. I do try to approach things a bit differently from the normal to try to gain additional insight.

On the point of a more diverse roster, I think there are plenty of popular options that help diversify the roster. I don't support characters for the sake of diversity alone, I think it is one point that aids them in inclusion in the same way that originating from different genres benefits other characters. We don't add characters solely for fan demand, we add them for a whole host of reasons such as Sakurai choosing oddball picks, promotional picks for upcoming releases, and choices for just relevant and recent characters. We've included characters to represent new areas of genres before too such as deciding to bring in Ryu as a beloved icon of the fighting game world. You can bring in someone like Lara Croft because she's a gaming icon that also happens to be a woman. I'm not advocating for Smash compromising its identity in terms of who gets chosen just to bump on the diversity statistics, but I do think that representation matters in all media and there is inherent value to having more diverse characters in the roster. Shantae is another example of a character popular within the Smash bubble that is another female character and also a person of color. You can include characters that are beloved and wanted by people that also achieve the intended goals of Smash as a large crossover without compromising anything about its identity. That's really what I'm in support of. Though I obviously have a higher tolerance for and interest in Overwatch than you do, which leads to me supporting Tracer personally. I think Overwatch is a great game and I like Tracer as a character, and in general I'd like to see more modern icons in Smash too. It's a bonus that she also brings in LGBTQ+ representation to Smash. There are characters of diverse backgrounds that people love, and I'm heavily in favor of incorporating those into Smash alongside other characters that bring nothing new to the game. I want to expand Smash in all of the directions we can! And that includes genres, companies involved, and representation of types of people and characters.

As for the Smash Bubble, I'll link to a post from DaybreakHorizon that describes the "Smash Bubble" more succinctly and better than I'm usual to communicate it: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/page-9741#post-22898697. Take a read of that section, because it's largely how I see things. I consider the "Smash Bubble" to be a very real phenomenon that is often too limited in its selections for characters and don't always consider how many great options could be included in the game. I also find a lot of the "Smash Bubble" to be quite fickle and inherently built with a tendency to gravitate towards characters once momentum starts building in their favor. I don't think there is anything wrong with such "bandwagoning" or whatever you want to call it, but I do think it times its emblematic of the fact that Smash fans don't always realize what they want either or are sometimes closed off from choices that they actually end up loving. I do think that this particular "Smash Bubble" has a tendency to overstate their importance or their reach as individuals because, as I've mentioned many times, there are 15 million owners of Smash Ultimate out there and only a handful seriously engage in fan polls, speculation, fan art, etc. I've always contended that this is a group that should be appealed to at different points, but they can't be the only group that Sakurai and Nintendo appeal to. Terry and Joker are two examples of characters that primarily originate out of that bubble (SNK doesn't show up in many polls or get many mentions, it was decidedly out of the bubble in many ways) and show how you can succeed in addressing other parts of the fandom. And I certainly think there are options that do benefit from being discussed within the bubble... but I do think there are a number of characters that also almost live exclusively within the bubble and their inclusions will be just appealing to this same base and little else. Some of the outside the "Smash bubble" choices will actually appeal to a great number of people in the bubble in the end, but will also appeal to lots of people who are being targeted outside of it as well and potentially bring in new sells/appeal to different demographics.

I do actually agree there is a finite list for newcomers... but largely because I think many of the newcomers are bigger characters (as in more popular and prone to take precedence over one another). Some of that is "Smash bubble" related, but I'd argue a great deal of it comes from independent factors that influence these series. For example, Halo is the clear crown jewel (well it WAS) of Microsoft and Chief is their mascot, so it will be the one to take precedent over a Gears of War character. I think that is what often results in the finite nature of additions. I'm not saying fan demand from the "Smash Bubble" can't impact those choices though. I'm also willing to admit that the "Smash Bubble" has become much more diverse in this speculation cycle and has expanded in some ways thanks to Ultimate's overall success and sort of the continued hype of Smash.

I'm all for Lloyd though. I think people forget that he's been an on again/off again fan pick (remember the fickle comment lol) and that Tales is a huge JRPG series with a lot of fans. A dual sword user would be great, and I personally prefer him the most out of our options for a Bandai Namco rep (assuming that Solaire is a From Software rep and not a Bandai Namco one).

Do you guys think Spirits deconfirm? I've been seeing a lot of people say Geno isn't happening because of his Spirit.

They almost certainly were deconfirmations for the Fighter's Pass, but in a post Fighter's Pass world, I'd argue Spirits have all the reason to be back on the table.

 

[Firox]

Not to be super rude to EricTheGamerman but sometimes the angles he comes from are super odd. Many have called him contrarian and whatnot but I'd rather not throw out a word to label him.

It feels like that, sometimes, Eric likes to argue the side of points that seem super irrelevant and VERY niche. For example, we argued about basic demographic and minority representation in Smash. He thinks (from what I can gather, I may be wrong) that there needs to be more representation of minorities and the like while I think none of that matters and we just need more characters people want and if people REALLY want those kinds of characters we will get them eventually because demand for them will be high. In that instance, he is putting the demographics of a character over the fan demand of characters in terms of importance, and I think that's just silly.

We don't need more females in Smash. We don't need more blacks or native americans or homosexuals or animals anything that basic.

We just need characters that people love. If they also happen to be one of those I listed above, then bully for them.

This argument seems to be that Eric is arguing that there are games outside of Smash that are big, and while he isn't wrong, he is completely missing the point that it doesn't matter if they are big if Smash fans don't ask for it. Terry is a perfect example of Eric being both right and wrong: Terry is from Fatal Fury/KoF and SNK which exists in a realm outside of Smash that has a big history, yet Smash fans mostly don't give two ****s about Terry because they never asked for him (majority speaking, of course).

So, on one hand, YES characters from outside the 'Smash bubble' can be big and have a history and therefore could technically be considered for Smash based off that...but on the OTHER hand, look at all the characters we have and how many of them exist due to that 'Smash bubble.' Terry is this perfect blend of 'big outside of Smash' and 'history with Smash/part of the Smash bubble' though some may argue which side he leans more towards.

I would disagree with some of his suggestions though. I would say there IS a finite list of characters that are possible for Smash and that the 'Smash bubble' has a huge sway on who is part of that list. If the consumers of the product don't want a feature, you don't put it in. If Smash fans aren't talking about a character, their chances drop considerably. That, and the level of 'iconic appeal' is running low for video game characters. The amount of character who were the first of a genre or are loved by one and all across the globe is running low and as big as Gears of War or Borderlands or Dead Space or any of these big titles with character people love are...they don't have any demand, or at best very little.

Sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don't. Such as life, really.

Drawing back from the 'fan demand > demographics' argument, characters like Lloyd still have a chance and it irks me just as much when someone says 'Not this character because of x biased reason that makes no sense.'

Example? All the Terry hate about him being human or male or even being a fighting game character. Him being human and male has nothing to do with gameplay, the most important part, and him being a fighting game character means he will fit perfectly. Sure, it will be easy to transition him over and there is little imagination to his moveset, but you STILL have no idea how he will play until you get your hands on him.

Lloyd is this new wave I dislike. 'Not another animu swordsman even though he can bring something completely new to the table and has so much unique stuff to offer, I don't want him because animu style!' Imagine writing off a character based off looks and not gameplay. That's just as bad as writing off a person based on looks and not the substance of their personality. Whatever happened to not judging books by their covers? I digress...

I think Lloyd is a perfect choice for the pass. It fits color theory for Lloyd to have an orange background because Namco, he's a fan demanded character and would give Namco a long-awaited second rep. Seems more likely than Doomguy by a large margin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and for those losing it over Sans, here is a day-ruiner for you. You deserve it for acting like Mii Fighters don't exist.

No Fun Sans Sans (Everyone is Home) @tobyfox#SmashBros #SmashBrosUltimate #Undertale #Sans #nintendo #NintendoSwitch pic.twitter.com/7EE5O6KYt5

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) September 18, 2019

Thanks for the thoughtful post, ForsakenM. I was hoping you'd weigh in. I gotta say, you were right on the money about Terry. And I agree that at the end of the day, what really matters is that the characters that get in are ones people love.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, ForsakenM. I was hoping you'd weigh in. I gotta say, you were right on the money about Terry. And I agree that at the end of the day, what really matters is that the characters that get in are ones people love.

>Thoughtful post
>Actually calls out the user and attacks their views rather than their argument

I understand the above statement may seem ironic coming from me of all people, but regardless I feel the need to point out two fundamental problems with ForsakenM's post.

1. Refer to the above point. ForsakenM says he's not going to call him a contrarian, but then misrepresents Eric's points (even if he says "I may be wrong," he still goes ahead with misrepresenting Eric's points) and uses terms to describe him that align with the term contrarian. It seems like he's circuitously dancing around what other users have said, but that doesn't change the fact he's saying the same thing. If you're going to call out a user, actually call them out. I'd personally say it's more insulting to be politely told off than honestly told off.
2. There's no evidence behind any of what he says. "Look at all the characters we have and how many of them exist due to that 'Smash bubble." You mean Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo? Simon/Richter, Joker, Isabelle, Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Hero, and Terry were not wanted in the core fanbase. Trust me, I've been around long enough and I can tell you none of them showed up in speculation except for the occasional "wouldn't that be cool?" discussion. If they got leaked, as most of them did, core fans fought desperately against the end result (especially with Hero and Incineroar), which ultimately changed nothing. Clearly there's a disconnect between what core fans in the Smash Bubble believe and what reality actually is. To not acknowledge that is nothing short of ignorance.

For a more in-depth form of my argument: take a look at my The Case for Minecraft Steve and the "Smash Bubble" effect. Maybe I ought to revisit it for modern speculation.

 

[ZelDan]

Do you guys think Spirits deconfirm? I've been seeing a lot of people say Geno isn't happening because of his Spirit.

For the current fighter's pass, yes. I doubt the 5th and last spot will be for a character with a spirit.

For DLC past our current fighter's pass, not so much. Theoretically we could still see third party characters with no current representation past the FP (lord knows there's probably plenty of third parties to choose from), but I don't think spirits would be a death knell for DLC spots post-FP.

 

[ForsakenM]

>Thoughtful post
>Actually calls out the user and attacks their views rather than their argument

I understand the above statement may seem ironic coming from me of all people, but regardless I feel the need to point out two fundamental problems with ForsakenM's post.

1. Refer to the above point. ForsakenM says he's not going to call him a contrarian, but then misrepresents Eric's points (even if he says "I may be wrong," he still goes ahead with misrepresenting Eric's points) and uses terms to describe him that align with the term contrarian. It seems like he's circuitously dancing around what other users have said, but that doesn't change the fact he's saying the same thing. If you're going to call out a user, actually call them out. I'd personally say it's more insulting to be politely told off than honestly told off.
2. There's no evidence behind any of what he says. "Look at all the characters we have and how many of them exist due to that 'Smash bubble." You mean Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo? Simon/Richter, Joker, Isabelle, Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Hero, and Terry were not wanted in the core fanbase. Trust me, I've been around long enough and I can tell you none of them showed up in speculation except for the occasional "wouldn't that be cool?" discussion. If they got leaked, as most of them did, core fans fought desperately against the end result (especially with Hero and Incineroar), which ultimately changed nothing. Clearly there's a disconnect between what core fans in the Smash Bubble believe and what reality actually is. To not acknowledge that is nothing short of ignorance.

For a more in-depth form of my argument: take a look at my The Case for Minecraft Steve and the "Smash Bubble" effect. Maybe I ought to revisit it for modern speculation.

Everything you just said was subjective.

"Trust me, I've been around long enough"? Clearly not, as Simon Belmont has been requested for ages and Japan has always been about more Dragon Quest in everything...and everything includes Smash. Joker actually had speculation and demand early on in 2018 but they snuffed themselves out because they convinced themselves the character had no chance. Terry is HUGE and his history and legacy MADE SMASH HAPPEN. Just because modern Nintendo fans and Smash fans have such narrow vision and gameplay experience doesn't mean he wasn't a big deal or requested. Also, you somehow forgot about Daisy, Chrom, and Dark Samus as well as...oh, I dunno...EVERY SINGLE VETERAN RETURNING?! This is COMPLETELY anecdotal and means nothing.

There is no disconnect, only balance. Eric himself has mentioned before that it shouldn't be all fan requests anyway, though I would say it should be mostly fan requests followed up by big names, of which Terry fits both. I'm not coming out and saying Terry was one of the most requested in the Smash fandom, because it's clear he wasn't.

As for misrepresenting Eric...it's really not hard to do in this case. You missed all these posts way back weeks ago when Eric all but established that Smash's lack of diversity was a glaring issue. He's pulled back now to a more tame 'fandom picks are more important but I still need representation goddammit' but you may not have thought that was his stance the last time this was brought up. However, the goal wasn't to call them out: it was to point out how he debates about things and how he nearly always takes an opposing stance and the fringe stance. It's something I've come to accept and I was informing someone else who seemed frustrated with debating with him.

As for the straggler points here:

• I won't act like Isabelle, Incineroar and Piranha Plant were all that demanded for Smash. Isabelle has her fandom, but not many of them crossed over into Smash, and she was definitely a promotional pick. Incineroar is popular in Japan but not much outside of that and PP is a Sakurai mad-lad pick which can only be loved after their inclusion for being exactly that.
• Just because the Smash fanbase in some portions don't want a character...doesn't mean Sakurai will remove that character from the game or throw them away in development. I'm not even sure what kind of argument you are trying to make here. I was referring to the power the Smash fandom has to push a character into acknowledgement and then eventually into reality.
• Imagine thinking that a few characters getting into Smash don't please every portion of the community means there is a disconnect. The only disconnect here is that Smash fans have gotten to a point where if the character isn't who THEY wanted then they are garbage versus how Sakurai is treating Ultimate as a massive love-letter to video games in general with no such discrimination.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Everything you just said was subjective.

"Trust me, I've been around long enough"? Clearly not, as Simon Belmont has been requested for ages and Japan has always been about more Dragon Quest in everything...and everything includes Smash. Joker actually had speculation and demand early on in 2018 but they snuffed themselves out because they convinced themselves the character had no chance. Terry is HUGE and his history and legacy MADE SMASH HAPPEN. Just because modern Nintendo fans and Smash fans have such narrow vision and gameplay experience doesn't mean he wasn't a big deal or requested. Also, you somehow forgot about Daisy, Chrom, and Dark Samus as well as...oh, I dunno...EVERY SINGLE VETERAN RETURNING?! This is COMPLETELY anecdotal and means nothing.

There is no disconnect, only balance. Eric himself has mentioned before that it shouldn't be all fan requests anyway, though I would say it should be mostly fan requests followed up by big names, of which Terry fits both. I'm not coming out and saying Terry was one of the most requested in the Smash fandom, because it's clear he wasn't.

As for misrepresenting Eric...it's really not hard to do in this case. You missed all these posts way back weeks ago when Eric all but established that Smash's lack of diversity was a glaring issue. He's pulled back now to a more tame 'fandom picks are more important but I still need representation goddammit' but you may not have thought that was his stance the last time this was brought up. However, the goal wasn't to call them out: it was to point out how he debates about things and how he nearly always takes an opposing stance and the fringe stance. It's something I've come to accept and I was informing someone else who seemed frustrated with debating with him.

As for the straggler points here:

• I won't act like Isabelle, Incineroar and Piranha Plant were all that demanded for Smash. Isabelle has her fandom, but not many of them crossed over into Smash, and she was definitely a promotional pick. Incineroar is popular in Japan but not much outside of that and PP is a Sakurai mad-lad pick which can only be loved after their inclusion for being exactly that.
• Just because the Smash fanbase in some portions don't want a character...doesn't mean Sakurai will remove that character from the game or throw them away in development. I'm not even sure what kind of argument you are trying to make here. I was referring to the power the Smash fandom has to push a character into acknowledgement and then eventually into reality.
• Imagine thinking that a few characters getting into Smash don't please every portion of the community means there is a disconnect. The only disconnect here is that Smash fans have gotten to a point where if the character isn't who THEY wanted then they are garbage versus how Sakurai is treating Ultimate as a massive love-letter to video games in general with no such discrimination.

I'm still not sure your characterizing my stance on the diversity issue correctly. I'll admit I got frustrated with Terry in the moment because he seemed random and I had managed to completely miss SNK from afar... but in terms of representation, my arguments with you have been more about how it matters to people and that we should definitely be more receptive of that in the Smash community. My solution has always been the same of "pick important and popular characters that also bring in more diversity," though I may not have expressed that clearly enough at the time. I'm also not saying fandom picks are more important either, I'm just saying there's a way to get more diversity in Smash that also doesn't involve fundamentally changing Sakurai's approach to inclusions in the game and the audience can be eased into (which, it's easier to work our way there with the Smash audience that big moving action if I've learned anything, that's how we got third parties to the point they are).

I'm still sticking hard behind the representation matters and should be an important thing to the game because I think it's generally very important to all media, but I also have my own ideas as to the method of improving that representation and I think there's a great path forward in Smash that makes a lot of people happy in the process (at least with regards to increasing the female representation in the roster, other areas of diversity are still unfortunately not in a great place in gaming and Smash can only reflect gaming, it can't exactly innovate with new characters). I've really not changed on this particular issue.

I've been over it many times in this thread, I'm not a contrarian. I'm a skeptic and a realist who enjoys taking speculation a little more seriously because I enjoy approaching it that way. People call me a contrarian because I stay in the Geno thread as a fan and don't always talk about Geno's chances in the positive and I have very little patience for theories in the community with regards to speculation. People call me a more moderate fan of Geno or whatever they wish, but that's how I've supported the character. I don't and never have adopted positions just to argue with others. I just tend to end up on the opposite side of things with people in this thread. DaybreakHorizon can probably vouch that I don't sound like a contrarian when I'm posting in the Newcomer speculation thread too often. I just have more of a tendency to approach topics in a way that some Smash fans don't particularly like. My views and analysis just don't end up matching with other people's too often it seems.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

If Travis Touchdown gets in the game (I really want him to) his series icon would likely be the shattered star seen on a lot of inconogroahy in the No More Heroes games.

Just imagine that we just get Terry with a healthy looking star and then for fighter #5 we look up the Smash Website to see Travis who has a dead star. It's like it tells us a sad story.

 

[WeirdAlFan101]

I'm wondering about something;

I recall seeing a few pages ago that people were speculating Geno's reveal to have some connection with Legend of the Seven Stars. They were thinking he'd either be the 7th DLC fighter revealed (being #76), or he would be fighter #77 (so the 8th DLC fighter revealed). So which one would be a more fitting nod, Fighter #77, or being the 7th DLC fighter revealed?

I'd be fine with either or, it means a Geno confirmation regardless in the end, but I'm just curious.

 

[AmphabulouSnake]

I can definitely see Geno being the very first dlc fighter added after the final fighters pass fighter.
I think Sakurai would want to include him as soon as possible, just so they can focus on newer franchises afterwards (mainly third party ones)

 

[OffBi]

I don't know about all of you, but Geno is definitely coming to smash

 

[Ovaltine]

DaybreakHorizon 'ey, dude, it's awesome to see you in the Geno thread again! Ignoring the, uh... scuffles going on right now, what do you think of Sora's and Geno's chances for additional DLC? I think Geno's got a good shot, if not as a fighter, then at least as an improved Mii costume that looks like him (and not his bootleg brother, 'Jynoh'). Sora, however, is someone I feel whose chances are really understated right now. I think he's got an incredible shot at making the line-up. As someone who isn't a KH or Sora fan, I REALLY feel like his time is now.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Does anyone remember who made this, and if they have an HD version?

Edit: if not, I'll just make an HD version in illustrator

 

[ChoccyStar]

I don't know about all of you, but Geno is definitely coming to smash

I'm quite sure I'm not going to be in smash.

 

[MattX20]

So apparently, Walmart of Canada is supportive of Geno also.

 

[Ovaltine]

I may hate Walmart as a company, but their Canadian social media department has some damn fine taste.

 

[YsDisciple]

So apparently, Walmart of Canada is supportive of Geno also. View attachment 239139
View attachment 239140

Now that I see this, the fact that a Walmart official twitter is making such remarks feels... suspicious. Not just that, but the tweet with the pictures of four of the most rumored potential DLC fighters... hmm... They gotta know something (or someone over there).

 

[Ovaltine]

Now that I see this, the fact that a Walmart official twitter is making such remarks feels... suspicious. Not just that, but the tweet with the pictures of four of the most rumored potential DLC fighters... hmm... They gotta know something (or someone over there).

I sincerely doubt they know anything that we don't. I'm positive that the identity of the future DLC fighters are under VERY heavy lock and key. If not for Nintendo's own stumble, we would have never had Terry leaked.

 

[Deleted member]

Not only we have Youtubers rooting for Geno, but Walmart too. The support keeps growing stronger!

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Now that I see this, the fact that a Walmart official twitter is making such remarks feels... suspicious. Not just that, but the tweet with the pictures of four of the most rumored potential DLC fighters... hmm... They gotta know something (or someone over there).

They're just having a bit of fun. But, that would be a ****ing amazing selection of additional characters to get lol.

 

[Deleted member]

I just checked Operation Starfall petition at change.org and there’s 2,285 signatures out 2,500!

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Now that I see this, the fact that a Walmart official twitter is making such remarks feels... suspicious. Not just that, but the tweet with the pictures of four of the most rumored potential DLC fighters... hmm... They gotta know something (or someone over there).

Something would only be up if they had to remove their tweet, Just like with Loot crate when they probably broke their NDA with Banjo & Kazooie and had to remove them.

Spoiler: Big image

 

[Ovaltine]

I just checked Operation Starfall petition at change.org and there’s 2,285 signatures out 2,500!

I'd say the petition is only a tiny sliver of what we've been doing at this point, really. We've expanded our horizons a lot on social media and bigger supporters getting the word out. We're in a great position, more than what just a petition can be. We're planning even more great stuff for the future, too!!

 

[link2702]

Even wendy’s awhile back dropped some hints that (at least whoever runs their social media account) they want to see geno get in.

Now walmart? No matter what happens at this point, geno has gained a legacy no other 3rd party side character in gaming could probably reach. Sure we’ve had wario and yoshi who in the past were just side characters and developed into their own things, but they were first party Nintendo characters.

 

[catsforlife1]

Not only we have Youtubers rooting for Geno, but Walmart too. The support keeps growing stronger!

Dont forget Toe Jam and Earl

 

[SSGuy]

I just checked Operation Starfall petition at change.org and there’s 2,285 signatures out 2,500!

That amount goes up every time a milestone is reached. So once it does hit 2,500 it will bump up to try and hit 3,000 or something. It really a set number.

With that being said, we need to find more ways to get more people to sign this petition. Not that it is a top priority, but the bigger numbers always look nicer.

Twitter has become my favorite platform for the campaign however. (That and our website)