Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[SuperNintendoDisney]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that deserve thing, the Kirby franchise, despite being Nintendo's fifth largest franchise by sales, is taken care of just as badly as Donkey Kong and Metroid if we're counting stages and trophies too, we don't even have our series's other main antagonist as a trophy, and we don't have a single Post-Sakurai stage. Here as a example, imagine this, what if Mario never got any stages from a game Miyamoto didn't direct(like Paper Mario or Sunshine), Rosalina, Wario, and Bowser Jr. are cut since he didn't make them, and that Wario wasn't even in as a trophy despite being the closest thing to a secondary antagonist and a very important character? Wouldn't that just sting of bias? I imagine it would. That's essentially the way Kirby's repped right now, we're missing everything non-sakurai, and the non-Sakurai stuff however important, like say, Dark Matter, sometimes doesn't even get trophies, I personally think it'd be fair to say Kirby deserves a bit more representation.

Custom Robo and Golden Sun have zero fighters. That's my point. Three Kirby fighters is more than enough, after that it's just adding characters for the sake of adding. Sakurai even mentioned something like this in an interview, that "there would be no end to it"

 

[A Distant Demon]

Adam would be a great joke character. There is no denying that.

There is plenty of denying that actually. Joke characters work based on being silly/strange or having a joke gimmick (pichu). Adam is a character that is pretty much always super serious and no gimmick would make sense for him.

The only logical way for Adam to be playable would be as a serious character. Which is not a good thing.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Even as not a Metroid fan, Adam couldn't be more of a waste of a character slot.

- One-off side character from the worst Metroid game
- Not only is he not wanted, everyone HATES him
- Dark Samus, Ridley, and Sylux are all more popular requests from the same series
- There's a million other NON-Adam choices for Smash that are way, way, way better

Just...no.

This is the biggest issue going against Adam. The only reason why people know him is because of how infamous he is and not with the whole "Love To Hate" appeal that has. He clearly lacks any appeal considering his poor reception, being one of the biggest reasons why Other M is hated.

You could probably put in any character that are significantly voted on the ballot, even if they aren't well known in the grand scale of things and they still would be better well-received than Adam.

 

[Morbi]

There is plenty of denying that actually. Joke characters work based on being silly/strange or having a joke gimmick (pichu). Adam is a character that is pretty much always super serious and no gimmick would make sense for him.

The only logical way for Adam to be playable would be as a serious character. Which is not a good thing.

My definition of a joke character is one that nobody wants to be playable; however, the creator adds them in the game regardless for the sake of a joke. I apologize for any confusion. I sort of enjoy reveling in the salt once characters such as Dark Pit are revealed.

 

[pupNapoleon]

This is going to be a pain... Not because I'm arguing with you. It's just that I have to type all of this on an iPad. It's a long story. Has nothing to do with you. Let's begin, shall we?

"Here we gooo!"(That's my attempt at a Mario quotation, an attempt at light humor). I do commemorate your dedication to typing this out on an iPad. (And also, just reading about yet another shooting in America... this is a fantastic escape, and I appreciate the tonality and awareness that this is just a forum about a video game, and the awareness that any animosity felt here is the slightest of all things dismissible).

I don't think it's a fact that Pokemon's representation is poor. In fact, people think that Pokemon is well represented, and I agree with them. We have Pikachu, who is Pokemon's mascot, Charizard and Mewtwo who are gen one favorites, Lucario, a gen four favorite and then you have the oddballs like Greninja and Jigglypuff. Even then though, despite how weird Greninja and Jigglypuff are, I think they fit into Smash. The only real problem I see with the Smash 4 Pokemon roster is how we don't have any Gen 3 or 5 Pokemon, but since the majority of the fanbase thinks that Pokemon is well represented, I doubt we'll be getting any more characters. It's a shame that Gens 3 and 5 weren't relevant when Brawl and 4 were out.

Keep in mind... "Pokemon is well represented" is a though that is only on forums. Specifically, this forum.
Remember that this is also a board that seems to hold Fire Emblem as Nintendo's fourth biggest franchise. (Although, to that point, in Smash, it is represented as such, numerically).
Representation does not just mean count and choice of characters, though. I speak specifically on how these characters are represented as well. We can argue that Greninja is designed alright, but literally, if *any other* character were designed with a move set based solely on appearance, it would be a travesty. Yet, Pokemon is treated so superficially, particularly by the fan base, this is seen as okay. I really want that fact to sink in. There is not another character, sans perhaps Captain Falcon, who is given a moveset based on a singular principle (in this case, being a water ninja). His representation is exceptionally out of character, and that is just looking at facts alone, that he was birthed out of a single sketch and one night of thought, completely unrelated to his massive franchise.

The thing is with so many Pokemon, Sakurai kinda has to limit the Pokemon roster to popular characters only. Pokemon I think has the largest potential in terms of character choices, but there's so many, I don't think we'd be able to represent Pokemon in its full glory. Because of this, we more or less have to accept what Sakurai gives us. Unless if the majority of the Smash base agrees with your claim, and tries to get Sakurai to notice this problem, Pokemon will keep being represented this way.

I see two issues with this claim
Firstly, the smash fanbase, thankfully, does not dictate the roster. I could speak more on this point but I don't believe I need to do so, as we have a plethora of characters that were chosen outside of fan popularity, and many characters who are popular and may never make it into the roster (or even into an AT).

Secondly- my argument is that yes.. Pokemon can be limited. The choice of characters is what is out of balance. There is not a single other franchise that foregoes the main characters, the mechanics of the universe which it represents, in order to go for popularity. To be fair, I think this is equally Game Freak/TPC and not just Sakurai, but it is an issue, and most people won't even acknowledge it. There is so much more to Pokemon than just summoning random Pokemon, and everything in the game makes this seem untrue. Everything Pokemon at least.

Yes, which is why I think we shouldn't bother. Representation is a touchy subject; what you may think needs representation, another person may not. I love Pokemon, but I feel it is impossible for Smash to completely represent it. There's not enough demand in the Smash fanbase to make it so, and I don't think there ever will be enough demand. People are already complaining about the amount of Pokemon there are in Smash as is.

Again, remember that this is just on forums. Pokemon is the most marketable franchise (you could argue Mario is more so, but Pokemon has always been about paraphernalia). The same community that complains, overall, about Pokemon, is the community that overall, misses every point in regard to DLC, and additionally, supports more Fire Emblem, endlessly.
In regard to representing Pokemon... it just doesn't even try. It avoids main characters, recurring themes, battle motifs, and just about everything else, in favor of a visual iconicism. It's very insulting to the series, and devalues it to being just a fad, by only including fad, flashy things.

Forgot to mention that the Pokemon Company has a lot to do with the roster choices. The Pokemon Company is very picky with their IP; notice how Pokemon amiibo missed the opportunity to be used twice. The Pokemon Company probably asks Sakurai to add only certain Pokemon, and I think that alone heavily affects the Pokemon roster.

I cannot disagree with this; Sakurai has, however, stated he looks for Pokemon featured in the anime.
Isn't that ironic? His main criteria for Pokemon is to utilize a non-videogame resource. This alone should set off the Smash fanbase, but for whatever reason, Smashers dont five a flying Farfetch that everything Sakurai actively states about Pokemon defies all other series in smash, and is outright disrespectful.

I'm okay with how all of the Pokemon are represented in Smash. I, and a lot of people think that the Pokemon in Smash etc. have move sets that make sense for them. I only said that Jigglypuff and Greninja are fine because those are the characters you've mentioned. c:

Again, this is subjective. You're the only person I know at the moment who is not okay with Jigglypuff and Greninja's move set. Unless a good amount of people show this problem to Sakurai, I doubt the move sets for these characters will ever change, and I personally don't think they should. They make sense for the type of Pokemon they are. Their move sets go hand in hand with their body types.

I'm aware I seem like just a fanboy- but I try to argue using facts (with which, to this day, I don't seem to be rebutted in return). Majority of people on forums don't seem to give a **** about pokemon, which should have been evident when the roster count went DOWN for Pokemon this game (base game roster), and it was still valued as less of an issue than *Starfox* and *Earthbound*, which are not equivalent Titans, by any standard. We still see it today. When almost anyone on this board claims "veterans are important," it is almost inherently spoken that the unique characters of Squirtle and Ivysaur do not fall into this categorization. It's very bias, and this is fact. Undeniably.

Greninja too is just factually not a Pokemon. He is a water ninja, and that is it. Sakurai has only stated anything on the Pokemon characters two times since Brawl, and both times, it follows unique criteria which would be disdainful to any other series. The main reason I'm upset with Pokemon in Smash is because the vocal fanbase don't even seem to acknowledge these facts- regarding veterans, the anime, and moveset design. They arent negotiable, they are completely unique to Pokemon. It's my opinion that it is wrongly done, but it is a fact that it is handled exceptionally differently from any other series.

That's true, but FE characters are still added to the game due to their relevancy, similar to the Pokemon games. Just like how Gen 3 and 5 Pokemon weren't added, FE characters from FE2, FE4-5, and FE7-8 weren't added because their games were irrelevant by the time a Smash game was about to be released.

Greninja was added as a 'gen 6' Pokemon. Roy was added for FE6. Those are the only times we have actively been given a character for the sake of being new. We got Robin for legitimate reasons, and even Roy and Lucina could be argued. In Gen 4, we got three new gen1 Pokemon as playable. The argument of recency (not at all the same as relevancy, mind you), is incorrect.

FE protagonists are in Smash because it's easier for Sakurai to come up with a move set for them. Can't really say that for the Pokemon Trainer, since he doesn't have any obvious weapons or anything.

The Pokeball is a very obvious weapon, its the symbol of the franchise, completely unique, and untouched in all ways except to Summon, which ATs have completely stolen.

I agree with you; there are relevant Pokemon who aren't popular. Heck, every Pokemon is relevant since every Pokemon appears in the main series. However, it's difficult to represent Pokemon properly in Smash which is why they're chosen for popularity reasons. There are about 20 or so FE lords, and there are about 720 Pokemon. Make that of what you will.[.quote]Ad there are 400 Animal Crossers. Yet we got none of them and instead have the avatar. Make of that wha tyou will.

Yes, Greninja has a made up move set because he was chosen for the roster before his game even came out. Again, you may not think his move set makes sense, but me and plenty of other people do. He's a ninja frog who is also a Water-Type; he's fast, nimble, and uses Water Shruikens. How much more proper representation does he need?

He needs to be based on his game, not a random move set made from his image. That wouldnt be acceptable for other characters, and it shouldnt be for him. It's not as if there isnt a lot of background evidence to choose upon. Even moves like 'hyrdo pump' have nothing to do with the actual move, and are only the move nominally. Greninja might as well be Impa.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

To be fair, Dark Pit actually had more appeal than Adam as unlike Adam with the Metroid, Dark Pit was actually a popular character in his respective home franchise.

 

[Mobes]

My definition of a joke character is one that nobody wants to be playable; however, the creator adds them in the game regardless for the sake of a joke. I apologize for any confusion. I sort of enjoy reveling in the salt once characters such as Dark Pit are revealed.

In the very same sense, few asked for Wii Fit Trainer. I'm very thankful for her inclusion in much the same way. The joke is your reaction to the notion that the character is in Smash.

 

[ShadyClash]

In the very same sense, few asked for Wii Fit Trainer. I'm very thankful for her inclusion in much the same way.

One of the reasons Shovel Knight is a character I want. I want to swim in the salt.

 

[Mobes]

One of the reasons Shovel Knight is a character I want. I want to swim in the salt.

Man, is Shovel Knight considered unfavorable by some? I just started reading this thread specifically, so this surprised me.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

Adam would be a great joke character. There is no denying that.

Adam would even be a terrible joke character, slap in the face and waste of a spot, at least people liked Jigglypuff and Pichu

You quite literally stated that you are a hardcore Zelda fan and I have no reason not to believe you.

You did the same thing, so why should I believe you as well? I can guarantee you I have been playing Zelda longer than you have been born, don't get an attitude

As for the selfish aspect of that response... So what? Most speculation is biased in the first place. I believe Zelda should have a character without a ****ing triangle on the back of their hand. It might be selfish, but that is how I feel.

And we're done here

Demand means nothing?! I am not going to bother with that blatant misinformation. You should probably come at it from the idea that demand is negligible if you want anyone to take your opinions seriously.

Wii Fit Trainer, Game & Watch, Koopalings in the Clown Car, Villager, Ice Climbers, ROB, Jigglypuff and Duck Hunt are all characters had little to no demand but still got in the game

Palutena, Shulk, Robin, Pokemon Trainer, Pit (prior to Brawl), Lucas, Wolf, Ike, Zero Suit Samus and pretty much most of the clones in there series are all characters who had somewhat of a demand but nothing major and still got in the game

If "highly demanded" meant anything we would have K Rool and the rest of the most popular newcomers already. At this point, demand means nothing because there isn't any character who stands out among the rest by any large margin. If you think Waddle Dee is more in demand than Issac, you are totally wrong

 

[Kenith]

In the very same sense, few asked for Wii Fit Trainer. I'm very thankful for her inclusion in much the same way. The joke is your reaction to the notion that the character is in Smash.

Wii Fit Trainer is the mascot from one of the best-selling games of all time.

 

[Burruni]

Man, is Shovel Knight considered unfavorable by some? I just started reading this thread specifically, so this surprised me.

An indie character who's been onto every system with more content currently available on Sony and Microsoft and is under a year old (aka no real history to them), no certainty of a sequel, and has no release for the East?

He's got an amiibo and flash-in-the-pan popularity to back him up.

Edit: For the "Adam vs WFT" comparison... There's a HUGE difference between a character that nobody expected because they were under the radar and one that nobody expected because they're a hated character.

We got and . Not Bubsy.

 

[Lady Kuki]

"Here we gooo!"(That's my attempt at a Mario quotation, an attempt at light humor). I do commemorate your dedication to typing this out on an iPad. (And also, just reading about yet another shooting in America... this is a fantastic escape, and I appreciate the tonality and awareness that this is just a forum about a video game, and the awareness that any animosity felt here is the slightest of all things dismissible).


Keep in mind... "Pokemon is well represented" is a though that is only on forums. Specifically, this forum.
Remember that this is also a board that seems to hold Fire Emblem as Nintendo's fourth biggest franchise. (Although, to that point, in Smash, it is represented as such, numerically).
Representation does not just mean count and choice of characters, though. I speak specifically on how these characters are represented as well. We can argue that Greninja is designed alright, but literally, if *any other* character were designed with a move set based solely on appearance, it would be a travesty. Yet, Pokemon is treated so superficially, particularly by the fan base, this is seen as okay. I really want that fact to sink in. There is not another character, sans perhaps Captain Falcon, who is given a moveset based on a singular principle (in this case, being a water ninja). His representation is exceptionally out of character, and that is just looking at facts alone, that he was birthed out of a single sketch and one night of thought, completely unrelated to his massive franchise.


I see two issues with this claim
Firstly, the smash fanbase, thankfully, does not dictate the roster. I could speak more on this point but I don't believe I need to do so, as we have a plethora of characters that were chosen outside of fan popularity, and many characters who are popular and may never make it into the roster (or even into an AT).

Secondly- my argument is that yes.. Pokemon can be limited. The choice of characters is what is out of balance. There is not a single other franchise that foregoes the main characters, the mechanics of the universe which it represents, in order to go for popularity. To be fair, I think this is equally Game Freak/TPC and not just Sakurai, but it is an issue, and most people won't even acknowledge it. There is so much more to Pokemon than just summoning random Pokemon, and everything in the game makes this seem untrue. Everything Pokemon at least.


Again, remember that this is just on forums. Pokemon is the most marketable franchise (you could argue Mario is more so, but Pokemon has always been about paraphernalia). The same community that complains, overall, about Pokemon, is the community that overall, misses every point in regard to DLC, and additionally, supports more Fire Emblem, endlessly.
In regard to representing Pokemon... it just doesn't even try. It avoids main characters, recurring themes, battle motifs, and just about everything else, in favor of a visual iconicism. It's very insulting to the series, and devalues it to being just a fad, by only including fad, flashy things.


I cannot disagree with this; Sakurai has, however, stated he looks for Pokemon featured in the anime.
Isn't that ironic? His main criteria for Pokemon is to utilize a non-videogame resource. This alone should set off the Smash fanbase, but for whatever reason, Smashers dont five a flying Farfetch that everything Sakurai actively states about Pokemon defies all other series in smash, and is outright disrespectful.


I'm aware I seem like just a fanboy- but I try to argue using facts (with which, to this day, I don't seem to be rebutted in return). Majority of people on forums don't seem to give a **** about pokemon, which should have been evident when the roster count went DOWN for Pokemon this game (base game roster), and it was still valued as less of an issue than *Starfox* and *Earthbound*, which are not equivalent Titans, by any standard. We still see it today. When almost anyone on this board claims "veterans are important," it is almost inherently spoken that the unique characters of Squirtle and Ivysaur do not fall into this categorization. It's very bias, and this is fact. Undeniably.

Greninja too is just factually not a Pokemon. He is a water ninja, and that is it. Sakurai has only stated anything on the Pokemon characters two times since Brawl, and both times, it follows unique criteria which would be disdainful to any other series. The main reason I'm upset with Pokemon in Smash is because the vocal fanbase don't even seem to acknowledge these facts- regarding veterans, the anime, and moveset design. They arent negotiable, they are completely unique to Pokemon. It's my opinion that it is wrongly done, but it is a fact that it is handled exceptionally differently from any other series.


Greninja was added as a 'gen 6' Pokemon. Roy was added for FE6. Those are the only times we have actively been given a character for the sake of being new. We got Robin for legitimate reasons, and even Roy and Lucina could be argued. In Gen 4, we got three new gen1 Pokemon as playable. The argument of recency (not at all the same as relevancy, mind you), is incorrect.


The Pokeball is a very obvious weapon, its the symbol of the franchise, completely unique, and untouched in all ways except to Summon, which ATs have completely stolen.

Look, I don't want to sound like I don't want to argue with you, because I do. Like I said, I'm a big Pokemon fan, and I also disagree with some of the choices done to the Smash roster. However, this iPad is a pain in the butt. It's laggy and likes to reset the page pretty frequently, making typing an utter annoyance.

Let's just agree to disagree. Clearly you feel that Pokemon isn't getting the representation it needs, and that's fine, but I just can't see proper representation happening anytime soon. It doesn't seem like an idea that would be considered important to Sakurai.

 

[Aetheri]

Oh hear we go with the 'I want <insert generally hated character here> because of how salty everyone will get'...

Because pissing people off and getting a kick for the first couple of weeks (after which people will stop caring because they have no choice) and now we have a character added to the roster that no one cares about at the expense of a character that COULD have been an awesome addition base on both their popularity and potential as a fighter...

 

[A Distant Demon]

In the very same sense, few asked for Wii Fit Trainer. I'm very thankful for her inclusion in much the same way. The joke is your reaction to the notion that the character is in Smash.

Wii Fit Trainer is interesting for being Unique and out of left field

Adam would be "out of left field" for completely different reasons. Wii Fit Trainer was not hated by the entire fanbase. The comparison ends at unexpected. Everything else is completely different


Picking a character just because people dont want him is a waste of dev time, money, and is downright foolish and immature. Because that is all Adam is.

 

[ShadyClash]

Man, is Shovel Knight considered unfavorable by some? I just started reading this thread specifically, so this surprised me.

Majority are people who would take a bullet for Shantae or do whatever WayForward asks. Granted, Shovel Knight has an excellent relationship with Nintendo. He's got both 3DS and Wii U releases, and an amiibo to give him more game modes.

And he IS getting planned release in the east. People need to know this.

 

[Mobes]

Adam would even be a terrible joke character, slap in the face and waste of a spot

Wii Fit Trainer, Game & Watch, Koopalings in the Clown Car, Villager, Ice Climbers, ROB, Jigglypuff and Duck Hunt are all characters had little to no demand but still got in the game

Palutena, Shulk, Robin, Pokemon Trainer, Pit (prior to Brawl), Lucas, Wolf, Ike, Zero Suit Samus and pretty much most of the clones in there series are all characters who had somewhat of a demand but nothing major and still got in the game

If "highly demanded" meant anything we would have K Rool and the rest of the most popular newcomers already. At this point, demand means nothing because there isn't any character who stands out among the rest by any large margin. If you think Waddle Dee is more in demand than Issac, you are totally wrong

If demand truly meant nothing, Sakurai and the Smash devs would decide characters by throwing darts. Not really, but you get my analogy. Your feel for the 'demand' is only that, your personal feel for it.

 

[Burruni]

Wii Fit Trainer is interesting for being Unique and out of left field

Adam would be "out of left field" for completely different reasons. Wii Fit Trainer was not hated by the entire fanbase. The comparison ends at unexpected. Everything else is completely different


Picking a character just because people dont want him is a waste of dev time, money, and is downright foolish and immature. Because that is all Adam is.

BESIDES!
Adam started in the Metroid MANGA and then got put into Other M!
HE's disqualified, he's Goku-tier!

Edit:

Majority are people who would take a bullet for Shantae or do whatever WayForward asks. Granted, Shovel Knight has an excellent relationship with Nintendo. He's got both 3DS and Wii U releases, and an amiibo to give him more game modes.

And he IS getting planned release in the east. People need to know this.

Show me a release window. Until then, it's classified as "planned," as is Half-Life 3.

 

[SamuXCI]

Man, is Shovel Knight considered unfavorable by some? I just started reading this thread specifically, so this surprised me.

People have a get in line attitude. People want who they want and I can't blame them. I just hope we get lots DLC characters so many people can be satisfied.

 

[Lady Kuki]

BESIDES!
Adam started in the Metroid MANGA and then got put into Other M!
HE's disqualified, he's Goku-tier!

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but Lucario appeared in the Pokemon movies before he appeared in the games so...

 

[Burruni]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but Lucario appeared in the Pokemon movies before he appeared in the games so...

We went over this like less than a week ago.
He was planned for the games first. Munchlax was designed and ready in 2005, 4 years before the film or the game.
And not a MANGA character. Sakurai's used the term manga character specifically.

 

[Morbi]

People have a get in line attitude. People want who they want and I can't blame them. I just hope we get lots DLC characters so many people can be satisfied.

I used to have that attitude until they revealed Cloud. I much prefer the characters that I never knew that I wanted over the characters that I have to beg for.

 

[Aetheri]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but Lucario appeared in the Pokemon movies before he appeared in the games so...

Shhh...we're trying to find an excuse to not get him into smash...

 

[Mobes]

An character who's been onto every system with more content currently available on Sony and Microsoft and has no certainty of a sequel

I'm being a bit facetious.

 

[Lady Kuki]

We went over this like less than a week ago.
He was planned for the games first. Munchlax was designed and ready in 2005, 4 years before the film or the game.
And not a MANGA character. Sakurai's used the term manga character specifically.

I actually did not know that. Thanks for clarifying.

Shhh...we're trying to find an excuse to not get him into smash...

It's okay. I understand lol.

 

[CodeBlue_]

"Here we gooo!"(That's my attempt at a Mario quotation, an attempt at light humor). I do commemorate your dedication to typing this out on an iPad. (And also, just reading about yet another shooting in America... this is a fantastic escape, and I appreciate the tonality and awareness that this is just a forum about a video game, and the awareness that any animosity felt here is the slightest of all things dismissible).


Keep in mind... "Pokemon is well represented" is a though that is only on forums. Specifically, this forum.
Remember that this is also a board that seems to hold Fire Emblem as Nintendo's fourth biggest franchise. (Although, to that point, in Smash, it is represented as such, numerically).
Representation does not just mean count and choice of characters, though. I speak specifically on how these characters are represented as well. We can argue that Greninja is designed alright, but literally, if *any other* character were designed with a move set based solely on appearance, it would be a travesty. Yet, Pokemon is treated so superficially, particularly by the fan base, this is seen as okay. I really want that fact to sink in. There is not another character, sans perhaps Captain Falcon, who is given a moveset based on a singular principle (in this case, being a water ninja). His representation is exceptionally out of character, and that is just looking at facts alone, that he was birthed out of a single sketch and one night of thought, completely unrelated to his massive franchise.


I see two issues with this claim
Firstly, the smash fanbase, thankfully, does not dictate the roster. I could speak more on this point but I don't believe I need to do so, as we have a plethora of characters that were chosen outside of fan popularity, and many characters who are popular and may never make it into the roster (or even into an AT).

Secondly- my argument is that yes.. Pokemon can be limited. The choice of characters is what is out of balance. There is not a single other franchise that foregoes the main characters, the mechanics of the universe which it represents, in order to go for popularity. To be fair, I think this is equally Game Freak/TPC and not just Sakurai, but it is an issue, and most people won't even acknowledge it. There is so much more to Pokemon than just summoning random Pokemon, and everything in the game makes this seem untrue. Everything Pokemon at least.

Again, remember that this is just on forums. Pokemon is the most marketable franchise (you could argue Mario is more so, but Pokemon has always been about paraphernalia). The same community that complains, overall, about Pokemon, is the community that overall, misses every point in regard to DLC, and additionally, supports more Fire Emblem, endlessly.
In regard to representing Pokemon... it just doesn't even try. It avoids main characters, recurring themes, battle motifs, and just about everything else, in favor of a visual iconicism. It's very insulting to the series, and devalues it to being just a fad, by only including fad, flashy things.

I cannot disagree with this; Sakurai has, however, stated he looks for Pokemon featured in the anime.
Isn't that ironic? His main criteria for Pokemon is to utilize a non-videogame resource. This alone should set off the Smash fanbase, but for whatever reason, Smashers dont five a flying Farfetch that everything Sakurai actively states about Pokemon defies all other series in smash, and is outright disrespectful.

I'm aware I seem like just a fanboy- but I try to argue using facts (with which, to this day, I don't seem to be rebutted in return). Majority of people on forums don't seem to give a **** about pokemon, which should have been evident when the roster count went DOWN for Pokemon this game (base game roster), and it was still valued as less of an issue than *Starfox* and *Earthbound*, which are not equivalent Titans, by any standard. We still see it today. When almost anyone on this board claims "veterans are important," it is almost inherently spoken that the unique characters of Squirtle and Ivysaur do not fall into this categorization. It's very bias, and this is fact. Undeniably.

Greninja too is just factually not a Pokemon. He is a water ninja, and that is it. Sakurai has only stated anything on the Pokemon characters two times since Brawl, and both times, it follows unique criteria which would be disdainful to any other series. The main reason I'm upset with Pokemon in Smash is because the vocal fanbase don't even seem to acknowledge these facts- regarding veterans, the anime, and moveset design. They arent negotiable, they are completely unique to Pokemon. It's my opinion that it is wrongly done, but it is a fact that it is handled exceptionally differently from any other series.

Greninja was added as a 'gen 6' Pokemon. Roy was added for FE6. Those are the only times we have actively been given a character for the sake of being new. We got Robin for legitimate reasons, and even Roy and Lucina could be argued. In Gen 4, we got three new gen1 Pokemon as playable. The argument of recency (not at all the same as relevancy, mind you), is incorrect.

The Pokeball is a very obvious weapon, its the symbol of the franchise, completely unique, and untouched in all ways except to Summon, which ATs have completely stolen.

What would you do to change Greninja (or other Pokémon) to fit the Pokémon series better? How would you implement the Pokémon Trainer? Sakurai tried to implement him/her and it had lackluster results.

What specific aspects of Pokémon does Sakurai overlook? You've talked about the Pokémon Trainer being absent, but how does he reflect the series?

One more thing, the Pokémon fanbase really doesn't give a flying **** about how Pokémon is implemented. I feel that a lot of Pokémon players barely play Smash. That's why no one gets upset over Pokémon being misrepresented; they probably don't play it seriously.

 

[Morbi]

Adam would even be a terrible joke character, slap in the face and waste of a spot, at least people liked Jigglypuff and Pichu


You did the same thing, so why should I believe you as well? I can guarantee you I have been playing Zelda longer than you have been born, don't get an attitude


And we're done here


Wii Fit Trainer, Game & Watch, Koopalings in the Clown Car, Villager, Ice Climbers, ROB, Jigglypuff and Duck Hunt are all characters had little to no demand but still got in the game

Palutena, Shulk, Robin, Pokemon Trainer, Pit (prior to Brawl), Lucas, Wolf, Ike, Zero Suit Samus and pretty much most of the clones in there series are all characters who had somewhat of a demand but nothing major and still got in the game

If "highly demanded" meant anything we would have K Rool and the rest of the most popular newcomers already. At this point, demand means nothing because there isn't any character who stands out among the rest by any large margin. If you think Waddle Dee is more in demand than Issac, you are totally wrong

I stated that I did believe you. Maybe you should, like, read what I type if you feel so obligated to respond to it. Just curious, because you brought this sentiment forth, how long have you been playing Zelda? I have only been playing since Ocarina of Time.

We are done because I specifically stated that I supported characters that I personally want rather than what everyone else expects? Okay. Except for, apparently we are not done as you continue to respond to my message.

I never stated that I believe Waddle Dee had more demand than Isaac. You can provide examples were demand was not entirely relevant, and I can provide examples where demand was pertinent to a character's inclusion. Only one of those definitively addresses that demand does matter in some capacity. And those would be my examples that refute your point of view.

 

[ShadyClash]

Show me a release window. Until then, it's classified as "planned," as is Half-Life 3.

http://yachtclubgames.com/2014/07/shovel-knight-international-status/

Here you go.

 

[Deleted member]

I want Shovel Knight in because he's from a series, with charm, adventures, and hilarity, he's also one of my 8 favourite characters brave, strong, and Intellegent. Got tons of moveset potential from using his shovel bladeto relics and would be a grand addition, don't know of his chances but we'll see.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Majority are people who would take a bullet for Shantae or do whatever WayForward asks. Granted, Shovel Knight has an excellent relationship with Nintendo. He's got both 3DS and Wii U releases, and an amiibo to give him more game modes.

And he IS getting planned release in the east. People need to know this.

Yes 'planned', or in other words hasn't happened yet, Japan still has no idea who the guy is

 

[ShadyClash]

Yes 'planned', or in other words hasn't happened yet, Japan still has no idea who the guy is

Still, could be a nod to many fans in the west. By the way, I fancy your icon. Impa's Hyrule Warriors iteration would be sweet in Smash.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Still, could be a nod to many fans in the west. By the way, I fancy your icon. Impa's Hyrule Warriors iteration would be sweet in Smash.

Shovel Knight isn't really that popular in the west in the first place, he's not well known to casual fans and a lot of his popularity comes from people jumping on the bangwagon.

Thanks though, Impa would be freaking awesome.

 

[ShadyClash]

Shovel Knight isn't really that popular in the west in the first place, he's not well known to casual fans and a lot of his popularity comes from people jumping on the bangwagon.

Thanks though, Impa would be freaking awesome.

I got one question for you.

Giant's Knife or Naginata?

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I got one question for you.

Giant's Knife or Naginata?

Both, in the same moveset. Although Skyward Sword Impa with magic would be cool too, especially if she comes back in Zelda Wii U.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I dont hate Toad at all, I'm just unaware of Smashboards' weird terminology. What is an all-star, and why is it important? I would be fine with Toad being in, but what makes him have this high "priority"? You seem to be indirectly puttting other characters down becuase of this "all-star" claim.

An All Star, at least to me(and different people's opinions may vary), is a charcter who is instantly recognisable to the extent even non-fans of Nintendo or even Video Games at least recognise the character.
I think you may have misunderstood my position here though; far from dismissing other characters(I did for example state Dixie is pretty well recognised as a character too, and I would seriously argue Meowth due to the Pokemon anime possesses a similar All Star rank) I am merely advocating that Toad is indeed an All Star; an iconic character the masses know of who has multiple playable roles and even some games under his own belt. For some reason many others(not neccesarily yourself) have been dismissive of Toad's ability to be a playable character...despite Toad often being a playable character in the Mario series.

He's definitely iconic, don't get me wrong. But, do you believe Nintendo or Sakurai finds him as important as SB says he is?

Importance is based upon Nintendo's attitude towards the character, which is meant to reflect either their role in the game or "story" or reflect their "popularity" (aka fanservice). Unfortunately. merchandise doesn't really tell us a lot, especially for a series as popular as Mario, where virtually everything is turned into merchandise. So, I really don't know. If you have any ideas, feel free to enlighten me; I don't have as much of a history with Mario titles.

EDIT: He's marketed as much as Isabelle? Oh. Hopefully, Sakurai sees that he's popular. I still don't understand where his popularity comes from, though.

Toad has always been a popular character with the majority of the public; whilst a few vocal individuals complain loudly about how they find Toad's voice annoying, more people seem to enjoy his existence within the Mario Kart roster, were disappointed by his disappearance from the Mario Tennis games(until recently) and seemed pleased when he joined the gang as a playable in Mario Party switching out with DK.
Hell; Toad was at one point the 8th most popular video game character in all of Japan: Being beaten by only Mario and Yoshi from the Mario series.
Whilst many say it's annoying, Toad's "Thank you Mario, but our princess is in another castle" is inarguably one of the most reknown video game quotes ever.

It is worth noting that Toad's popularity with the public came as a surprise to Nintendo, as they seemed shocked in an interview in Mario 3D World about how popular he was.

After the Captain Toad levels in 3D World got such amazing reception Nintendo listened to the fans and did as Miiverse asked; releasing Captain Toad as it's own game a year later.

Why do you like him as a character (this is a genuine question, not a criticism)?

Why do I personally like Toad?
Design wise he's great; a simplistic look that captures enough cuteness that he can appeal to girls but not so much that it'd turn boys away(see Pikachu for another example of that balance). The way he constantly shakes in fear in Captain Toad and Luigi's Mansion gives him an element of expression not found in many more stoic characters(although notably shared with Luigi).

Stats wise Toad is nearly always awesome in my book; there's a reason he and Yoshi are the most played Mario Kart characters for instance. Usually a tiny speedster in Mario sports games which suit me personally to the ground.

But it mostly probably stems from my age.

Spoiler

Namely; I'm probably a lot older than most of you guys.
I grew up with the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, of which Toad was a main character.
Games wise; SMB2 seemed to cement that relationship where Toad was not only the fastest character(a role he'd keep in Super Mario 3D World) but also the strongest. Needless to say Toad ended up being the character I played nearly all the levels with due to his insane speed and pluck strength.

Wario's Woods was a game I played a lot as a child; in it Toad had that ridiculous super strength back where he could lift five times his body weight AND run up walls whilst blowing monsters up, besting Wario and capturing coins.
I thought this was insanely cool, but it sadly didn't stick.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii seemed to start bringing playable Toads back, but it wasn't until 3D World did it feel like a return to form for the Toad I grew up with; zipping around. Captain Toad was very very different, but was such a breath of fresh air I'll admit he's my personal Toad of choice at this point...plus he retained his super strength as seen in one of the boss battles I won't spoil for you in case you get the chance to try the game.

I probably also have a thing for the underdog characters; no one expects much from the Toads, but they always try to help as much as they can. Personally I find that charming.

Lastly? Because simply he's "Da Best"

Also "Star Power" feels meaningless to me, can you explain that further?

Sure thing; star power is something that draws the masses in.
Toad is one of the few characters from Nintendo that people recognise yet still isn't playable. After starring in Captain Toad Treasure Tracker his profile has raised. Other successful Mario characters who have gone on to do their own thing include Yoshi, Luigi and Wario...Toad is the latest, and hopefully Captain Toad continues to get sequels. We need more puzzle games.

Hope that helps clear up some personal views on Toad at least.

 

[ShadyClash]

Both, in the same moveset.

Aw dude. That would be the sickest move set, having water and fire being methods of attack. Be cool if they incorporated OoT and SS things into her, too.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Aw dude. That would be the sickest move set, having water and fire being methods of attack. Be cool if they incorporated OoT and SS things into her, too.

I'd rather they stick to one or the other, What can I say? I like consistency

 

[ShadyClash]

I'd rather they stick to one or the other, What can I say? I like consistency

Ah, I just meant a few small references. Kinda like how Pac-Man is from Pac-Land, but his up air is from Pac-Man World 2. Little things, ya know?

 

[Deleted member]

Still hope we get Snake and Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Ah, I just meant a few small references. Kinda like how Pac-Man is from Pac-Land, but his up air is from Pac-Man World 2. Little things, ya know?

Oh those could work although Impa doesn't really fight in those games to begin with so there isn't a lot you can use