Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[Argos]

At this point I think any third party thats slightly less popular or known then the current ones would be pretty left field.

My list of preferred third party left fieldies:

Klonoa (Namco)
Agumon (Namco)
Geno (Square)
Black Mage (Square)
Bomberman (Konami)
Goemon (Konami)
NiGHTs (Sega)
Knuckles (Sega)
Zero (Capcom)
X (Capcom)

I feel something we do after every third party is announced is go "they can't possibly find another third party as iconic as the ones we have!" Which, I suppose, may be true! Especially when the third parties in the game were Sonic, Megaman, and Pac-Man. As important to gaming as Ryu and Cloud truly are, I doubt either of them passes the "Dad test" like the previous three could - that is, the test of whether my Dad, who hasn't seriously played a video game in decades, if ever, could recognize them. That said, some new picks seem more likely to me than others.

 

[Ura]

Anyone else hoping that tommorow (Nov 30th) we will get some info regarding Cloud on the smash website and the date of when the Smash Presentation will air (hopefully on Dec 6th as it would be the anniversary for Japan's Smash Wii U release).

That's my idea of what's probably going to happen though not any Cloud info until the 6th.

I'm expecting an announcement by Nintendo tomorrow and the Presentation on the 6th next week.

 

[Argos]

Uhhhh, how does that make any sense? Geno being obscure has no baring on Cloud's acceptance. Maybe you meant relatively, Cloud would be more popular today than Geno? General interest (if measurable) would be constant, so Geno being obscure or not would have no baring on Cloud. You may want to rephrase that.

Super Mario RPG was already old when Brawl was released. Super Mario RPG came out in 1996. Brawl was released in 2008, 12 years later. So unless 19 years is the magic number where people stop caring, his popularity wouldn't change. But a big reason people stopped talking about Geno was his legal issues since he was owned by Square, not Nintendo. But let's look at today.

The late Shorts did quite a lot of polls during the pre-Smash 4 days. If you look at the poll's Geno's position varies, but he does well in a few of them. In the mid 2013 one, he was in the top 25. Sourcegaming's Perception of DLC in Japan (which I linked earlier) also had Geno in the top 20. Geno is always higher than Cloud on both. And again, Famitsu reader put Super Mario RPG at the 8th best Nintendo game of all time. So I don't think fans don't care about Geno. But he was a character that has been held back by legal issues that fans thought would always bar him.

But, again, my point is not that Cloud is unpopular. Its that Cloud is unpopular among the target audience. Its like trying to sell cheap perfume in a high class store. The cheap perfume may be a best seller, but not in the market you are trying to sell it in. The reaction to Geno would get folks excited, but the initial reaction would be "quieter." However, the difference is fans would have a more sustained interest because its a character that appeals to them. And there may be character choices that are better than Geno. I bring this up because I argue that if Nintendo was going to go through all the work of negotiating rights, why not do it for their own character. I think the only thing the Cloud announcement did well was it was shocking. No one seems to be saying how interesting his moves are or they are glad to play as them (save for, like, Maxamilian Dood). They are in it for the shock factor/ I would even argue that Nintendo dropped the ball and lost thousands of sales because they did not release Cloud on the same day.

To close, on your point.....what you said makes no sense. The target market is Nintendo fans, so why would they care about Cloud, a character who only graced their system through spin-offs. I don't think you understand who Smash is appealing to and why I can even say a smaller character like Geno is a better choice than Cloud, who is one of the biggest names in Final Fantasy. Master Cheif is a big name, but I can assure you fans would hate his inclusion because Nintendo fans don't care for Halo (or, at least they are less likely to play it since they would own Wii Us and not necessarily XBox Ones).

This makes the pretty basic mistake of assuming that the most hardcore of the hardcore (those who post on message boards and such who gleefully leap at the chance to let their choices be heard) are anything more than a relatively small subset of Nintendo fans in general or Smash fans in particular. We're the weirdos who have been over these debates a thousand times, have let our expectations become tinted with every argument over the sun. We're not as important as you think we are.

 

[ErenJager]

Back in my day smash was a nintendo celebration.
Now its a gaming celebration.

Humbug

 

[predator_21476]

Uhhhh, how does that make any sense? Geno being obscure has no baring on Cloud's acceptance. Maybe you meant relatively, Cloud would be more popular today than Geno? General interest (if measurable) would be constant, so Geno being obscure or not would have no baring on Cloud. You may want to rephrase that.

Super Mario RPG was already old when Brawl was released. Super Mario RPG came out in 1996. Brawl was released in 2008, 12 years later. So unless 19 years is the magic number where people stop caring, his popularity wouldn't change. But a big reason people stopped talking about Geno was his legal issues since he was owned by Square, not Nintendo. But let's look at today.

The late Shorts did quite a lot of polls during the pre-Smash 4 days. If you look at the poll's Geno's position varies, but he does well in a few of them. In the mid 2013 one, he was in the top 25. Sourcegaming's Perception of DLC in Japan (which I linked earlier) also had Geno in the top 20. Geno is always higher than Cloud on both. And again, Famitsu reader put Super Mario RPG at the 8th best Nintendo game of all time. So I don't think fans don't care about Geno. But he was a character that has been held back by legal issues that fans thought would always bar him.

But, again, my point is not that Cloud is unpopular. Its that Cloud is unpopular among the target audience. Its like trying to sell cheap perfume in a high class store. The cheap perfume may be a best seller, but not in the market you are trying to sell it in. The reaction to Geno would get folks excited, but the initial reaction would be "quieter." However, the difference is fans would have a more sustained interest because its a character that appeals to them. And there may be character choices that are better than Geno. I bring this up because I argue that if Nintendo was going to go through all the work of negotiating rights, why not do it for their own character. I think the only thing the Cloud announcement did well was it was shocking. No one seems to be saying how interesting his moves are or they are glad to play as them (save for, like, Maxamilian Dood). They are in it for the shock factor/ I would even argue that Nintendo dropped the ball and lost thousands of sales because they did not release Cloud on the same day.

To close, on your point.....what you said makes no sense. The target market is Nintendo fans, so why would they care about Cloud, a character who only graced their system through spin-offs. I don't think you understand who Smash is appealing to and why I can even say a smaller character like Geno is a better choice than Cloud, who is one of the biggest names in Final Fantasy. Master Cheif is a big name, but I can assure you fans would hate his inclusion because Nintendo fans don't care for Halo (or, at least they are less likely to play it since they would own Wii Us and not necessarily XBox Ones).

This implies that the super hardcore fanbase is the majority. Which we aren't most people won't actually know who Geno is. This doesn't apply to Cloud because he's an icon everyone knows him so he will sell regardless of where his game debuted.

 

[SmashChu]

Plus the FF7 remake is coming out.

Ryu has SFV coming out soon.

See the coincidence?

So when are those coming out on a Nintendo platform again?

 

[PushDustIn]

Uhhhh, how does that make any sense? Geno being obscure has no baring on Cloud's acceptance. Maybe you meant relatively, Cloud would be more popular today than Geno? General interest (if measurable) would be constant, so Geno being obscure or not would have no baring on Cloud. You may want to rephrase that.

Super Mario RPG was already old when Brawl was released. Super Mario RPG came out in 1996. Brawl was released in 2008, 12 years later. So unless 19 years is the magic number where people stop caring, his popularity wouldn't change. But a big reason people stopped talking about Geno was his legal issues since he was owned by Square, not Nintendo. But let's look at today.

The late Shorts did quite a lot of polls during the pre-Smash 4 days. If you look at the poll's Geno's position varies, but he does well in a few of them. In the mid 2013 one, he was in the top 25. Sourcegaming's Perception of DLC in Japan (which I linked earlier) also had Geno in the top 20. Geno is always higher than Cloud on both. And again, Famitsu reader put Super Mario RPG at the 8th best Nintendo game of all time. So I don't think fans don't care about Geno. But he was a character that has been held back by legal issues that fans thought would always bar him.

But, again, my point is not that Cloud is unpopular. Its that Cloud is unpopular among the target audience. Its like trying to sell cheap perfume in a high class store. The cheap perfume may be a best seller, but not in the market you are trying to sell it in. The reaction to Geno would get folks excited, but the initial reaction would be "quieter." However, the difference is fans would have a more sustained interest because its a character that appeals to them. And there may be character choices that are better than Geno. I bring this up because I argue that if Nintendo was going to go through all the work of negotiating rights, why not do it for their own character. I think the only thing the Cloud announcement did well was it was shocking. No one seems to be saying how interesting his moves are or they are glad to play as them (save for, like, Maxamilian Dood). They are in it for the shock factor/ I would even argue that Nintendo dropped the ball and lost thousands of sales because they did not release Cloud on the same day.

To close, on your point.....what you said makes no sense. The target market is Nintendo fans, so why would they care about Cloud, a character who only graced their system through spin-offs. I don't think you understand who Smash is appealing to and why I can even say a smaller character like Geno is a better choice than Cloud, who is one of the biggest names in Final Fantasy. Master Cheif is a big name, but I can assure you fans would hate his inclusion because Nintendo fans don't care for Halo (or, at least they are less likely to play it since they would own Wii Us and not necessarily XBox Ones).

Geno being obscure (and having relatively issues on top of that) means he is an unlikely choice for DLC, something that people have to buy into. So it does have an affect on Cloud's acceptance. Cloud isn't obscure, and he's relevant which is why he makes a lot more sense to be picked.

With polling we run into two obvious issues: bias and the numbers game. The Smash online community is FAR smaller than the people who actually buy the game. Chris Pranger (former Nintendo localizer) confirmed this was the case. He stated that the Smash community is (And I'm paraphrasing) 'loud and ever present but small'. So all the polling (Yes, even my Perception of Smash DLC in Japan, Redux) has a lack of representational input from the actual Smash community.

I discuss the polling issue in greater detail in Dangers of Online Polling.

1. The target market is Nintendo fans but you have not proved that Nintendo fans would be more likely to know Geno over Cloud.

2. Geno hasn't even been used in other Nintendo/ Square Enix crossovers. While Cloud is in the same boat, he is actually still relevant to modern gaming -- even being voted as one of the most iconic characters by Guinness Book of World Records

And there may be character choices that are better than Geno. I bring this up because I argue that if Nintendo was going to go through all the work of negotiating rights, why not do it for their own character.

3. Geno is still not a Nintendo character. He is 100% owned by Square Enix.

4. Sakurai is NOT a business man. Name one DLC character that's been released for business purposes. Stop getting trapped in the "Smash is for Promotional purpose" mindset. Sakurai is a designer first and foremost, and wants to work with new IPs and content creators.

 

[Ura]

...I'm being ignored...

 

[SwordOfSeals]

That's my idea of what's probably going to happen though not any Cloud info until the 6th.

I'm expecting an announcement by Nintendo tommorow and the Presentation on the 6th next week.

Now that's what I'm debating cause back in June they announced Lucas's release date AND then announced a direct for that week, but this time they already have a direct for us and just need to tell us when it's going to be aired along with Clouds release date. I was thinking they might just put pictures up of Cloud on the website along with his artwork and link to the Final Fantasy VII website. But I'm just throwing around predictions...

 

[pupNapoleon]

This post comes off super pretentious, don't you think? Speak for yourself when you include "all gamers" in your own opinions. Nintendo can say whatever they want from a public relations standpoint. At the end of the day, the consumer is going to see Nintendos product on the shelf next to Microsofts and Sony, in which they are directly competing for the sale and shoppers money, especially during the holiday

...this is the definition of irony.
Exaggeration is a literary tool.
Another tool is the useful ignore feature.*
Kind of like you ignoring my point, and ignoring the fact that Nintendo even states they are not in direct competition with Sony and Microsoft.
I don't really care if facts come off as pretentious, they are still facts.

*It's not just myself for which I speak, and I'd be happy to cite many gaming articles wherein Nintendo is directly slated as a separate market.
Speaking of which, in terms of economics, not only are you correct that other games are in direct competition for Nintendo, but in fact, other forms of home entertainment are competitors as well. You could even generalize and list it as other games (non video), other hobbies, and other technology.

We can go even wider. Doesn't mean that is useful in any way.

 

[Ura]

I was referring to his post when I said I was being ignored lol. I figured it would generate a lot of replies but to my surprise, it was completely overlooked. Just want to hear what people think of it.

I take it no one saw this previous post that I made earlier today? I recommend you all give it a look at least.

Very unlikely, I know but strange things have happened in Smash Bros recently. There's still a possibility considering that he was considered for Melee showing that Niny can seek out licensing from whatever company makes 007 films. Not only that but they showed freaking Cloud of all people in the November Direct instead of the December Presentation. Obviously they have 1 huge surprise left and although that doesn't support Bond per se, there's absolutely no denying that he could top Cloud easily the hype department. Not many other characters can do that TBH.

Can you guys imagine what it would be like if at the end of the Smash Bros presentation, Sakurai says he has one last surprise for use and then you see this?

(Obviously, the video would have much better video and sound quality if it were to happen so keep that in mind. Also, replace the Nintendo logo with the Smash Bros logo and the Rare logo with the X, similar to Ryu and Cloud's reveal.

James Bond: Reports In For Duty

(commence Bond kicking everyone's arse in his trailer)

You can't lie people, that would be the most hype thing to ever happen in Smash Bros.

 

[PushDustIn]

I was referring to his post when I said I was being ignored lol. I figured it would generate a lot of replies but to my surprise, it was completely overlooked. Just want to hear what people think of it.

If it was just licensing issue, then sure. But there are multiple issues.

No character based on real people.
No guns.
Book/ Movie/ Game copyright jungle.

--Definitive Unused Fighter List

 

[Burruni]

I was referring to his post when I said I was being ignored lol. I figured it would generate a lot of replies but to my surprise, it was completely overlooked. Just want to hear what people think of it.

Yeah.

One huge issue with the James Bond situation.

He's not a video game character.

And one with less of an attached demand than Goku.

And without the company associated with the games working in the game, as Bamco is with Goku.

He's an even less likely Goku.

 

[Kurri ★]

Plus the FF7 remake is coming out.

Ryu has SFV coming out soon.

See the coincidence?

I'm 100% certain that it's just a coincidence. I'm sure had SFV and a FF7 remake weren't coming out they'd still be added in.

Uhhhh, how does that make any sense? Geno being obscure has no baring on Cloud's acceptance. Maybe you meant relatively, Cloud would be more popular today than Geno? General interest (if measurable) would be constant, so Geno being obscure or not would have no baring on Cloud. You may want to rephrase that.

Super Mario RPG was already old when Brawl was released. Super Mario RPG came out in 1996. Brawl was released in 2008, 12 years later. So unless 19 years is the magic number where people stop caring, his popularity wouldn't change. But a big reason people stopped talking about Geno was his legal issues since he was owned by Square, not Nintendo. But let's look at today.

The late Shorts did quite a lot of polls during the pre-Smash 4 days. If you look at the poll's Geno's position varies, but he does well in a few of them. In the mid 2013 one, he was in the top 25. Sourcegaming's Perception of DLC in Japan (which I linked earlier) also had Geno in the top 20. Geno is always higher than Cloud on both. And again, Famitsu reader put Super Mario RPG at the 8th best Nintendo game of all time. So I don't think fans don't care about Geno. But he was a character that has been held back by legal issues that fans thought would always bar him.

But, again, my point is not that Cloud is unpopular. Its that Cloud is unpopular among the target audience. Its like trying to sell cheap perfume in a high class store. The cheap perfume may be a best seller, but not in the market you are trying to sell it in. The reaction to Geno would get folks excited, but the initial reaction would be "quieter." However, the difference is fans would have a more sustained interest because its a character that appeals to them. And there may be character choices that are better than Geno. I bring this up because I argue that if Nintendo was going to go through all the work of negotiating rights, why not do it for their own character. I think the only thing the Cloud announcement did well was it was shocking. No one seems to be saying how interesting his moves are or they are glad to play as them (save for, like, Maxamilian Dood). They are in it for the shock factor/ I would even argue that Nintendo dropped the ball and lost thousands of sales because they did not release Cloud on the same day.

To close, on your point.....what you said makes no sense. The target market is Nintendo fans, so why would they care about Cloud, a character who only graced their system through spin-offs. I don't think you understand who Smash is appealing to and why I can even say a smaller character like Geno is a better choice than Cloud, who is one of the biggest names in Final Fantasy. Master Cheif is a big name, but I can assure you fans would hate his inclusion because Nintendo fans don't care for Halo (or, at least they are less likely to play it since they would own Wii Us and not necessarily XBox Ones).

I see what you're saying and I'm just going to point you to what PushDustIn posted

So when are those coming out on a Nintendo platform again?

Who cares? Sakurai obviously doesn't and he's the creator, the person who has the utmost say of who gets in and who doesn't. If Sakurai says, and he has, that a character simply needs to have gaming history, then anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves.

I'm sure in your echo chamber Geno is the more popular and worthy candidate, but in the grand scheme of things, he's really not. He's a side character from a spin-off title and hasn't had any relevancy to modern gaming. To say he'd appeal to Nintendo fans more than Cloud is wholly ignorant.

Besides if we really need to follow your arbitrary rule that characters must appear on Nintendo platforms; Cloud has appeared in 4 games and is appearing in a fifth, Final Fantasy Explorers. Again, Geno has only ever appeared in one with a little cameo appearance in Superstar Saga. I think at this point it's safe to say Cloud has done more for Nintendo than Geno ever will.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

The thing that concerns me most with all these 3rd parties is will they bring all of them back for the next smash. What do you guys think?

Who cares? Sakurai obviously doesn't and he's the creator, the person who has the utmost say of who gets in and who doesn't. If Sakurai says, and he has, that a character simply needs to have gaming history, then anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves.

What if he starts adding characters from ytps like IM meen and Morshu? (I actually do want those 2). Could Nintendo add characters from the Zelda cdi games like Morshu and the king as DLC?

 

[Ura]

Ya never know ppl, circumstances might change over the years and stuff. In any case, it's a fun idea I had. Maybe there's a minuscule chance it would happen. IDK. Would be hyped as hell for it.

The other popular curveball characters that I can think in my head are Master Chief and Banjo (less so Banjo because people are expecting him). If Sakurai is throwing logic out the window here, then maybe there's a chance we would actually see Goku in Smash Bros.

 

[Aetheri]

Uhhhh, how does that make any sense? Geno being obscure has no baring on Cloud's acceptance. Maybe you meant relatively, Cloud would be more popular today than Geno? General interest (if measurable) would be constant, so Geno being obscure or not would have no baring on Cloud. You may want to rephrase that.

Super Mario RPG was already old when Brawl was released. Super Mario RPG came out in 1996. Brawl was released in 2008, 12 years later. So unless 19 years is the magic number where people stop caring, his popularity wouldn't change. But a big reason people stopped talking about Geno was his legal issues since he was owned by Square, not Nintendo. But let's look at today.

The late Shorts did quite a lot of polls during the pre-Smash 4 days. If you look at the poll's Geno's position varies, but he does well in a few of them. In the mid 2013 one, he was in the top 25. Sourcegaming's Perception of DLC in Japan (which I linked earlier) also had Geno in the top 20. Geno is always higher than Cloud on both. And again, Famitsu reader put Super Mario RPG at the 8th best Nintendo game of all time. So I don't think fans don't care about Geno. But he was a character that has been held back by legal issues that fans thought would always bar him.

But, again, my point is not that Cloud is unpopular. Its that Cloud is unpopular among the target audience. Its like trying to sell cheap perfume in a high class store. The cheap perfume may be a best seller, but not in the market you are trying to sell it in. The reaction to Geno would get folks excited, but the initial reaction would be "quieter." However, the difference is fans would have a more sustained interest because its a character that appeals to them. And there may be character choices that are better than Geno. I bring this up because I argue that if Nintendo was going to go through all the work of negotiating rights, why not do it for their own character. I think the only thing the Cloud announcement did well was it was shocking. No one seems to be saying how interesting his moves are or they are glad to play as them (save for, like, Maxamilian Dood). They are in it for the shock factor/ I would even argue that Nintendo dropped the ball and lost thousands of sales because they did not release Cloud on the same day.

To close, on your point.....what you said makes no sense. The target market is Nintendo fans, so why would they care about Cloud, a character who only graced their system through spin-offs. I don't think you understand who Smash is appealing to and why I can even say a smaller character like Geno is a better choice than Cloud, who is one of the biggest names in Final Fantasy. Master Cheif is a big name, but I can assure you fans would hate his inclusion because Nintendo fans don't care for Halo (or, at least they are less likely to play it since they would own Wii Us and not necessarily XBox Ones).

I can't help but notice the cynicism that is being displayed here...

Cloud is only an unpopular choice to those who...'don't want third parties'...'don't want another anime swordsman'...or those who think he's 'not Nintendo enough'...or 'not deserving'...a vocal minority in the grand scheme of things...

Also why would Cloud be less appealing to a Nintendo fanbase, than Geno?...firstly it is way more likely Nintendo fans have actually played the games he's appeared in, even if his main series installment wasn't on a nintendo platform, than SMRPG...especially amoung most of the younger crowd (the actual target audience) who probably haven't even heard of Geno...

second, why would Geno be more appealing to begin with? He's got a more vocal fanbase? Well...remember why Cloud was such a shock? It was because a lot of people thought he was impossible given his 'ties' to Sony...but despite this he was a character a lot of people still wanted..not being heavily requested=/=not wanted...
or is he less appealing because Geno 'fits' the Nintendo theme, being catered to a younger audience, unlike cloud who hails from a game that deals with some dark and adult themes...which shouldn't matter to begin with...

bottom line...Cloud is a very popular video game character, that has been added to a popular video game featuring other popular video game characters...the fact that Smash has featured characters like Snake, Ryu, Pac-man, and Sonic shows that it isn't ONLY about appealing to Nintendo fans...64 and Melee were focused more on celebrating Nintendo's history but now Smash is branching out to a wider audience...

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

...this is the definition of irony.
Exaggeration is a literary tool.
Another tool is the useful ignore feature.*
Kind of like you ignoring my point, and ignoring the fact that Nintendo even states they are not in direct competition with Sony and Microsoft.
I don't really care if facts come off as pretentious, they are still facts.

*It's not just myself for which I speak, and I'd be happy to cite many gaming articles wherein Nintendo is directly slated as a separate market.
Speaking of which, in terms of economics, not only are you correct that other games are in direct competition for Nintendo, but in fact, other forms of home entertainment are competitors as well. You could even generalize and list it as other games (non video), other hobbies, and other technology.

We can go even wider. Doesn't mean that is useful in any way.

You say a lot of nothing in your posts, and still come off as pretentious with the "holier than thou" attitude. I mean, nothing was said in your post just all this smoke and mirrors fluff. Nintendo can "state" all they want that they aren't "directly competing" with Sony and Microsoft, but in reality (the real non-PR world) they are directly competing for consumers money. It has nothing to do with facts, it's called common sense and not believing everything the public relations department of Nintendo says

 

[Ura]

Also wanted to point out that there's an AT in the game based off the Brain Age series who in turn is based off a real life person.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Kawashima#Trivia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryuta_Kawashima

 

[SmashChu]

Geno being obscure (and having relatively issues on top of that) means he is an unlikely choice for DLC, something that people have to buy into. So it does have an affect on Cloud's acceptance. Cloud isn't obscure, and he's relevant which is why he makes a lot more sense to be picked.

With polling we run into two obvious issues: bias and the numbers game. The Smash online community is FAR smaller than the people who actually buy the game. Chris Pranger (former Nintendo localizer) confirmed this was the case. He stated that the Smash community is (And I'm paraphrasing) 'loud and ever present but small'. So all the polling (Yes, even my Perception of Smash DLC in Japan, Redux) has a lack of representational input from the actual Smash community.

I discuss the polling issue in greater detail in Dangers of Online Polling.

1. The target market is Nintendo fans but you have not proved that Nintendo fans would be more likely to know Geno over Cloud.

2. Geno hasn't even been used in other Nintendo/ Square Enix crossovers. While Cloud is in the same boat, he is actually still relevant to modern gaming -- even being voted as one of the most iconic characters by Guinness Book of World Records)



3. Geno is still not a Nintendo character. He is 100% owned by Square Enix.

4. Sakurai is NOT a business man. Name one DLC character that's been released for business purposes. Stop getting trapped in the "Smash is for Promotional purpose" mindset. Sakurai is a designer first and foremost, and wants to work with new IPs and content creators.

I agree with most of what you said on polling, but I want to discuss point 1 an 2 and I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

The argument was never that Cloud was less well known or less popular in the wider gaming audience than Geno. That's not debatable. What I'm saying is Geno is a better choice given the audience for Smash.

To avoid confusion, let me make it more simple. The audience of Super Smash Brothers is Nintendo fans. This should be self evident given that Smash fans tend to like other Nintendo properties, and of course they own Nintendo hardware. So the characters are Nintendo systems will appeal to Smash fans the most because Smash fans are generally Nintendo fans. Why were Sonic and Megaman popular. Because Nintendo fans like these characters. Megaman was originally on the NES. According to Sega, the Sonic audience is on Nintendo systems.

So why am I saying Cloud is a bad pick. Final Fantasy 7 was on the Playstaion and PCs. The Final Fantasy 7 remake is, as of now, a Playstation exclusive. So what systems do you think a fan of Cloud would own. Probably a PS4. Would a Nintendo fan like Final Fantasy 7? Perhaps, but that is dependent on if they owned Playstation and Nintendo hardware. Not everyone does.

Compare this to Geno. His game is on the SNES and the Virtual Console. Nintendo fans usually own Nintendo hardware, so it is likely they played this game. It's also a Mario game, so a Nintendo fan would likely play this game.

Now, compare the two characters. Cloud is exclusive to the Playstation. If Smash is played by Nintendo fans, is he a good choice. No, because it is likely Nintendo fans did not play his game and may not care about it or the remake. To put it more simply, why would a Nintendo fan want a Playstation exclusive character? More people may know Cloud, but you are ultimately confusing knowledge with demand. Tingle is a well known character too, but he's not in Smash because he isn't popular (even hated). Geno is obscure, but when your target audience is Nintendo fans, and Geno is a popular, albeit obscure, character among the fanbase, wouldn't he make a better choice. I think the other side of the argument has assumed the characters is practically unknown, but Super Mario RPG sold 1.47 million units in Japan.

I'm comparing these two because they are both owned by Square. My argument is that since Nintendo went and got the license, why not go for a character that will appeal to their demographic. Is there better characters than Geno. Probably. But if you are going through the work, why not grab a character that is, heck, a Mario character.

Yes, Sakurai is not a business man, but that is irrelevant. Sakurai doesn't will quality. Him wanting to add IPs does not make Cloud a good choice. I think what I stated above summarizes the issue. In fairness, Sakurai will explain more come the December Direct so I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Lastly, Geno is a Mario character. He is not owned by Nintendo, but he probably wouldn't be a guest character.

I've continued this too long and I probably missed something. This is probably rough, so sorry if I come off as rude. Really only meant to reply to one, but oh well. I'm out of town, but I'll happily continue this via PM if you really want to continue this. Otherwise, carry on.

 

[PushDustIn]

Also wanted to point out that there's an AT in the game based off the Brain Age series who in turn is based off a real life person.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Kawashima#Trivia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryuta_Kawashima

The floating Kawashima head is way more of a video game character than Pierce Brosnan as Bond in Goldeneye. Plus, Nintendo has a good history of working with the good doctor, so they were able to secure the rights pretty easily.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

Geno being obscure (and having relatively issues on top of that) means he is an unlikely choice for DLC, something that people have to buy into. So it does have an affect on Cloud's acceptance. Cloud isn't obscure, and he's relevant which is why he makes a lot more sense to be picked.

With polling we run into two obvious issues: bias and the numbers game. The Smash online community is FAR smaller than the people who actually buy the game. Chris Pranger (former Nintendo localizer) confirmed this was the case. He stated that the Smash community is (And I'm paraphrasing) 'loud and ever present but small'. So all the polling (Yes, even my Perception of Smash DLC in Japan, Redux) has a lack of representational input from the actual Smash community.

I discuss the polling issue in greater detail in Dangers of Online Polling.

1. The target market is Nintendo fans but you have not proved that Nintendo fans would be more likely to know Geno over Cloud.

2. Geno hasn't even been used in other Nintendo/ Square Enix crossovers. While Cloud is in the same boat, he is actually still relevant to modern gaming -- even being voted as one of the most iconic characters by Guinness Book of World Records



3. Geno is still not a Nintendo character. He is 100% owned by Square Enix.

4. Sakurai is NOT a business man. Name one DLC character that's been released for business purposes. Stop getting trapped in the "Smash is for Promotional purpose" mindset. Sakurai is a designer first and foremost, and wants to work with new IPs and content creators.

That's awesome, good for you, I read your articles but you know what? Sakurai said DLC was for the fans, meaning, Smash Bros fans, the loud fan base on the Internet. Geno has been a highly requested newcomer since Melee, and something is to be said about that "obscure one shot only" character from "that one game 20 years ago" who still highly ranks in polls and is still a super talked about character on the Internet. Even in Japan he is highly requested and Sakurai takes that into account, just look at your own polls you translated. You can argue until you are blue in the face about his relevancy, but do not throw shade on his popularity and staying power over the years from appearing in only one game. It's a popular thing today to throw shade on the most highly requested newcomers like Geno, Ridley, K Rool, Banjo Kazooie, Skull Kid, Waluigi etc etc because as long as those most wanted newcomers never get in, it means the less requested newcomers of more niche unlikely unpopular games have a chance. It's kind of sick though

It's also interesting to note that if Nintendo paid more attention to the general public than the Internet fans, why do we have so many nobodies on the game? You really think people care about the Fire Emblem people, or Palutena or Shulk or Lucas? Duck Hunt is more recognizable than those characters. Sorry dude, even at my age, it grinds my gears when I have to hear Geno-hating, as if his popularity is a threat to someone's favorite character getting in, which is why people hate on the popular highly requested characters in the first place

 

[Kurri ★]

The thing that concerns me most with all these 3rd parties is will they bring all of them back for the next smash. What do you guys think?


What if he starts adding characters from ytps like IM meen and Morshu? (I actually do want those 2). Could Nintendo add characters from the Zelda cdi games like Morshu and the king as DLC?

Who?

 

[Ura]

The floating Kawashima head is way more of a video game character than Pierce Brosnan as Bond in Goldeneye. Plus, Nintendo has a good history of working with the good doctor, so they were able to secure the rights pretty easily.

Just wanted to point out that it is possible for licensing issues to work out even if it's very difficult to secure the rights for the character.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So when are those coming out on a Nintendo platform again?

Ryu was in a 3DS game and Cloud was in theaterrythm.

Other then that, I think the only reason Cloud and Ryu made it into Smash is because they had games coming out, and the respective companies wanted the advertisement.

Other then that, I find it odd that Nintendo would make a Shovel Knight amiibo, and that it comes out about the same time as the smash direct.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Just one day away until December. When do you think the Direct will be? Obviously, I'm hoping sooner than later. The first Smash Direct was early in the month (April 8th, 2014), the second was later (October 24th, 2014), and the third was in the middle of the month (June 14th, 2015). I personally rule out later in the month because Smash, despite being a year old, is still a huge game this holiday season and Nintendo wants to jump on that gravy train before people are overwhelmed with Christmas gifts. What do you guys think?

 

[Kurri ★]

Just one day away until December. When do you think the Direct will be? Obviously, I'm hoping sooner than later. The first Smash Direct was early in the month (April 8th, 2014), the second was later (October 24th, 2014), and the third was in the middle of the month (June 14th, 2015). I personally rule out later in the month because Smash, despite being a year old, is still a huge game this holiday season and Nintendo wants to jump on that gravy train before people are overwhelmed with Christmas gifts. What do you guys think?

Early so I can forget about finals for a moment.

 

[Burruni]

Just wanted to point out that it is possible for licensing issues to work out even if it's very difficult to secure the rights for the character.

But here's the three big differences.

1) First Party vs 3rd Party
2) an assist trophy, not a fighter.
3) It's a video game character with the face deliberately based on the person because of their infleunce on the game, not a Video Game rendition of an actor.

Edit: For bonus points
4) Just asking for the rights to re-use the adaptation of someone's likeness in series of contractual work that Nintendo's had instead of going to rights of an actor's likenes and then the actual character from a group that Nintendo has no direct affiliation with.

 

[pupNapoleon]

"All-Stars" atmosphere.





C'mon.
It's not a huge factor if someone's a B or C rank "all-star" instead of the S and A's. Characters like Bandana Dee, Dixie, Isaac, Paper Mario, etc. all still have their points.

Also Ganon is an All-Star.
Just saying.

...your list makes me sad.
You have Link on their as not an all-star. Not to mention Lucario, Dedede, Olimar....

...I'm being ignored...

I will respond to your post about James Bond.

I find there to be a logical leap in the assumption that December must have a bigger surprise than Cloud.
December has hype in the build- and hype is the more important factor.
Nintendo, and Sakurai, love surprises, but there are a few issues here.
1- Expecting a surprise makes any outcome less surprising.
2- Cloud was a solo announcement, and in December we are getting an entire broadcast. For sure, we are going to have a huge climax (and, as I believe next year, a denoument). However, we got Cloud during a drought of information, and he was a stand alone tidbit. I think we will be surprised in December, but I think the entirety of the announcement will bring the shock, not a specific character.

My personal bet is that we are getting a lot more than most think- but that is besides the point. We don't always have to top the previous point, particularly if that is the attempt at a new 'rule.'

As far as James Bond, I wouldnt be hyped, Id be let down. He isnt the face of the genre, and is barely even a face in gaming. Goldeneye may have made the genre what it is currently, but this isnt 2001, and it just seems a step too far. If we are going to get a non video game character, Id go for Mickey Mouse. If we are going for a 90s Nintendo character, Id go for Banjo Kazooie. If we are going for a first person shooter, Id go with Master Chief. Adding Bond now is a wasted spot to me, because it breaks the cardinal rule of Smash just to do it.

 

[PushDustIn]

I agree with most of what you said on polling, but I want to discuss point 1 an 2 and I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

The argument was never that Cloud was less well known or less popular in the wider gaming audience than Geno. That's not debatable. What I'm saying is Geno is a better choice given the audience for Smash.

To avoid confusion, let me make it more simple. The audience of Super Smash Brothers is Nintendo fans. This should be self evident given that Smash fans tend to like other Nintendo properties, and of course they own Nintendo hardware. So the characters are Nintendo systems will appeal to Smash fans the most because Smash fans are generally Nintendo fans. Why were Sonic and Megaman popular. Because Nintendo fans like these characters. Megaman was originally on the NES. According to Sega, the Sonic audience is on Nintendo systems.

So why am I saying Cloud is a bad pick. Final Fantasy 7 was on the Playstaion and PCs. The Final Fantasy 7 remake is, as of now, a Playstation exclusive. So what systems do you think a fan of Cloud would own. Probably a PS4. Would a Nintendo fan like Final Fantasy 7? Perhaps, but that is dependent on if they owned Playstation and Nintendo hardware. Not everyone does.

Compare this to Geno. His game is on the SNES and the Virtual Console. Nintendo fans usually own Nintendo hardware, so it is likely they played this game. It's also a Mario game, so a Nintendo fan would likely play this game.

Now, compare the two characters. Cloud is exclusive to the Playstation. If Smash is played by Nintendo fans, is he a good choice. No, because it is likely Nintendo fans did not play his game and may not care about it or the remake. To put it more simply, why would a Nintendo fan want a Playstation exclusive character? More people may know Cloud, but you are ultimately confusing knowledge with demand. Tingle is a well known character too, but he's not in Smash because he isn't popular (even hated). Geno is obscure, but when your target audience is Nintendo fans, and Geno is a popular, albeit obscure, character among the fanbase, wouldn't he make a better choice. I think the other side of the argument has assumed the characters is practically unknown, but Super Mario RPG sold 1.47 million units in Japan.

I'm comparing these two because they are both owned by Square. My argument is that since Nintendo went and got the license, why not go for a character that will appeal to their demographic. Is there better characters than Geno. Probably. But if you are going through the work, why not grab a character that is, heck, a Mario character.

Yes, Sakurai is not a business man, but that is irrelevant. Sakurai doesn't will quality. Him wanting to add IPs does not make Cloud a good choice. I think what I stated above summarizes the issue. In fairness, Sakurai will explain more come the December Direct so I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Lastly, Geno is a Mario character. He is not owned by Nintendo, but he probably wouldn't be a guest character.

I've continued this too long and I probably missed something. This is probably rough, so sorry if I come off as rude. Really only meant to reply to one, but oh well. I'm out of town, but I'll happily continue this via PM if you really want to continue this. Otherwise, carry on.

Again, you haven't proved that Cloud is a less relevant/ noteworthy character to Smash fans than Geno, which is your whole argument that Geno is a better choice given the audience.

1. You need to establish who the Smash fanbase is (which is 7,000,000+ people for the 3DS alone).

2. And then you need to present accurate polling or data representation for those people.

Right now your argument is based on the complete assumption that people who buy Smash only buy Nintendo-related games and consoles and live in their Nintendo bubble, which is absurd as the fanbase is over 7,000,000 people. Smash fans aren't just Nintendo fans and I wouldn't doubt that most of the people who play Smash own multiple consoles. There's some people even in this community who could probably care less about Nintendo characters, and mainly play for the mechanics of the game. How many people actually knew about Flying Men -- outside of hardcore Nintendo fans and in particular MOTHER fans, before they were revealed to be part of the stage?

Super Mario RPG might have sold 1.47 million units in Japan, but Final Fantasy VII sold 2 million copies IN THREE DAYS.

Geno would be a guest character. If hes not owned by Nintendo, and instead owned by Square then it's a 3rd party character and should be judged on his own merits -- as a third party.

The thing is, is that Cloud would have had more "demand" within the Smash speculation community if there wasn't mistranslations or misinformation about third parties. Same with Ryu. If Sakurai listened to everything everybody wanted ever there would be no cohesion in Smash. It would be a random assortment of loosely tied things together that wouldn't feel coherent.

That's awesome, good for you, I read your articles but you know what? Sakurai said DLC was for the fans, meaning, Smash Bros fans, the loud fan base on the Internet. Geno has been a highly requested newcomer since Melee, and something is to be said about that "obscure one shot only" character from "that one game 20 years ago" who still highly ranks in polls and is still a super talked about character on the Internet. Even in Japan he is highly requested and Sakurai takes that into account, just look at your own polls you translated. You can argue until you are blue in the face about his relevancy, but do not throw shade on his popularity and staying power over the years from appearing in only one game. It's a popular thing today to throw shade on the most highly requested newcomers like Geno, Ridley, K Rool, Banjo Kazooie, Skull Kid, Waluigi etc etc because as long as those most wanted newcomers never get in, it means the less requested newcomers of more niche unlikely unpopular games have a chance. It's kind of sick though

Let me correct you on something real quick:
I really don't care what characters get in, so I'm not "throwing shade" so my "less requested newcomer...has a chance". I'm very happy with the roster as is. I'm actually trying to engage in speculation, and part of speculation is removing personal bias and looking at the actual chances of characters. If you want realistic look at the characters, then looking at the reasons why they COULDN'T get in is far more important than looking at why they COULD get in and is something that is ignored by 90% of the people within the community.

Also online fanbase does not equal entire Smash fanbase.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Early so I can forget about finals for a moment.

Ah, Hell Week. I wrapped up my master's thesis this semester so this is the first time in 9 years where I don't have to worry about anything at the end of the semester. I'm hoping by the 15th. Some people think something will be said at the Video Game Awards on Thursday but, as we've come to know, that's always been a set up for disappointment. Nintendo dropping a character at the show would be too good to be true and I've seen a lot of people crossing their fingers that Snake's return would be announced there.

 

[ToddCam]

First, I want to point out the obvious ad-hominid. It doesn't matter what my personal position is. It only matters what I'm saying. Too many people in the Smash community use ad hominid because it allows them to deflect any real discussion.

Do you mean ad hominem? A hominid is a member of the taxonomic family humans are part of.

 

[Ura]

But here's the three big differences.

1) First Party vs 3rd Party
2) an assist trophy, not a fighter.
3) It's a video game character with the face deliberately based on the person because of their infleunce on the game, not a Video Game rendition of an actor.

Edit: For bonus points
4) Just asking for the rights to re-use the adaptation of someone's likeness in series of contractual work that Nintendo's had instead of going to rights of an actor's likenes and then the actual character from a group that Nintendo has no direct affiliation with.

1) and 2) don't matter all that much because 1) Third party licensing can be done and 2) AT's and Fighters still are on the same boat in terms of legal stuff as with any other content in the game. 3) I don't think is that much of a big deal. Both cases would have the likeliness of the character in the game regardless if one is loosely based off a real person. 4) as I said before can be done if all parties are in agreemnet.

Again, i'm not arguing that Bond is likely for Smash or will defiantly make it in the game. My point here is that it's not impossible for him to be in the game.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

Again, you haven't proved that Cloud is a less relevant/ noteworthy character to Smash fans than Geno, which is your whole argument that Geno is a better choice given the audience.

1. You need to establish who the Smash fanbase is (which is 7,000,000+ people for the 3DS alone).

2. And then you need to present accurate polling or data representation for those people.

Right now your argument is based on the complete assumption that people who buy Smash only buy Nintendo-related games and consoles and live in their Nintendo bubble, which is absurd as the fanbase is over 7,000,000 people. Smash fans aren't just Nintendo fans and I wouldn't doubt that most of the people who play Smash own multiple consoles. There's some people even in this community who could probably care less about Nintendo characters, and mainly play for the mechanics of the game. How many people actually knew about Flying Men -- outside of hardcore Nintendo fans and in particular MOTHER fans, before they were revealed to be part of the stage?

Super Mario RPG might have sold 1.47 million units in Japan, but Final Fantasy VII sold 2 million copies IN THREE DAYS.

Geno would be a guest character. If hes not owned by Nintendo, and instead owned by Square then it's a 3rd party character and should be judged on his own merits -- as a third party.

The thing is, is that Cloud would have had more "demand" within the Smash speculation community if there wasn't mistranslations or misinformation about third parties. Same with Ryu. If Sakurai listened to everything everybody wanted ever there would be no cohesion in Smash. It would be a random assortment of loosely tied things together that wouldn't feel coherent.


Let me correct you on something real quick:
I really don't care what characters get in, so I'm not "throwing shade" so my "less requested newcomer...has a chance". I'm very happy with the roster as is. I'm actually trying to engage in speculation, and part of speculation is removing personal bias and looking at the actual chances of characters. If you want realistic look at the characters, then looking at the reasons why they COULDN'T get in is far more important than looking at why they COULD get in and is something that is ignored by 90% of the people within the community.

Also online fanbase does not equal entire Smash fanbase.

At this point, any character that could possibly be considered for Smash still has some issue that makes them highly unlikely, unless it's the Inkling or a veteran. Every character from Nintendo's A and B lists have made it in, and most notable third party characters are present. Any character you add now is going to have some degree of obscurity, so what difference does it make if they add Geno? Or would you rather another Fire Emblem lord or Earthbound child? Point is, the only characters left to add that the general public are going to recognize are SpongeBob, Goku and Batman. Adding Geno is more like a nod to those die hard Nintendo fans that stuck with it since the nineties. That's why I think Cloud is a grand addition, it only increases Genos chances because, like SmashChu said, there is communication between Nintendo and Square

 

[ToddCam]

James Bond is not based on a real person. Pierce Brosnan's likeness is far from necessary for Bond to appear.

 

[Kurri ★]

At this point, any character that could possibly be considered for Smash still has some issue that makes them highly unlikely, unless it's the Inkling or a veteran. Every character from Nintendo's A and B lists have made it in, and most notable third party characters are present. Any character you add now is going to have some degree of obscurity, so what difference does it make if they add Geno? Or would you rather another Fire Emblem lord or Earthbound child? Point is, the only characters left to add that the general public are going to recognize are SpongeBob, Goku and Batman. Adding Geno is more like a nod to those die hard Nintendo fans that stuck with it since the nineties. That's why I think Cloud is a grand addition, it only increases Genos chances because, like SmashChu said, there is communication between Nintendo and Square

What about Master Chief? Third Party, notable, actually relevant to modern gaming and made a much larger impact than Geno, and he's recognizable. Then there's Conker and Banjo who still have a sliver of relevancy, and they appeared on good old Ninty.

 

[Fatmanonice]

On the discussion of Geno, I'm still hoping for a Mii costume, even if the fighter ship has practically sailed at this point. Obviously, the Chocobo's won't be the only SE costumes so I'm hoping that Geno and Mallow don't get screwed over for the umpteenth time when it comes to a SE/Nintendo collab.

 

[Ura]

Seeing as almost no one talks about Mii Costumes for Wave 5, I have a few in mind.

Chocobo (Brawler)
Barrett (Guner)
Black Mage (Brawler)
Tidus (Swordfighter)
Isaac (Swordfighter) (granted if he doesn't make it in the game)
Shovel Knight (Brawler) (to partially satisfy those who clamor for the inclusion of Butt-Butt in Smash)
Shantae (Brawler) (same as above)
I really want to see Tidus as a Mii Costume mostly because FFX was the first FF game I played and that Tidus VS matches would be amazing.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

What about Master Chief? Third Party, notable, actually relevant to modern gaming and made a much larger impact than Geno, and he's recognizable. Then there's Conker and Banjo who still have a sliver of relevancy, and they appeared on good old Ninty.

Yeah, add Master Chief, then add Toucan Sam, Dumbledore, Shrek, the tiger from Hangover, a piece of brocolli and the purple monkey from Zelda: A LInk to the Past

 

[Kalimdori]

Yeah, add Master Chief, then add Toucan Sam, Dumbledore, Shrek, the tiger from Hangover, a piece of brocolli and the purple monkey from Zelda: A LInk to the Past

Are you really comparing a gaming icon too, among other things, a cereal mascot and a vegetable?