Gender equality

[Chis]

When gender equality is mentioned, we think of the male domination and reasserting women as equals in walks of live. But positive and negative discrimination concerning both genders still happen. Some of society's values are based on past stereotypes that contradict the same ones that they're trying to banish. People have been raised, learning these 'values' from society and have been asserting it through police and law hence integrating these thoughts as 'normal'. Why is it that men getting domestically abused are mocked at by some people? If it was a woman, they would mock her. Why is that a man hitting a woman is seen as wrong while a woman hitting a man is less frowned on? This isn't much of a case on the extreme ends of violence, but why is a woman slapping a man less frowned on then a man slapping a woman? Surly they're both wrong despite the gender?

New statistics suggest that men in their early 20s are MORE likely to be abused by their partner than women the same age. It's not a subject that's much talked about. On Newsbeat, we're changing that.
The official definition of partner abuse includes non-physical forms like emotional bullying as well as physical force. But men in this age range have been on the receiving end of all forms, including sometimes severe violence

SOURCE

Mark Brooks from the men's health charity Mankind reckons the issue of male domestic abuse is often ignored by the government, social services and the police. There simply isn't enough help available for men, he says.
Reporting the crime carries risks too. Some men clearly feel that telling police can lead to the finger of blame being pointed at them. One, who wants to stay anonymous, texted us to say "ex girlfriend pushed me down the stairs ,i called the police and they locked me up for three hours and made me walk home with dislocated toes cos they did not believe me". Others say they were threatened with assault charges - even though they were the victim.

SOURCE

Sorry if this is a little short, just when I finished my real post, the computer mocked up, so I did this from memory. Discuss?

 

[Mr. Rogu]

Yes, I have noticed that. Also dont forget that males have to pay way higher wages for car insurrance than females.

I mean, Im all for gender equality but those few things you talk about Chis are true. But thing about all the campaigning women had to go through just to get the right to vote. It took them over 80 years til finally in 1919 that the 18th amendment was passed for the right to vote for women. But women still werent equal to men. They werent allowed to get certain jobs that men were able to. And if a male and female had the same job, women dont nearly get as much money as men do for it.

But then again, women can get away with a lot more stuff then men can. For instance, if a cop pulls over a women and she uses her "charm" to sweet talk the cop, he'll end up not giving her a ticket. If a guy got pulled over and tried to talk his way out of a ticket, the cop wont budge cause guys dont have "charms." If they did, that would be creepy.

Obviously slapping someone isnt nice. But when you hear a guy slap her its like "Oh my god, hes gonna kill her" cause males have superiority or somethin like that. But when a girl slaps a guy its like ok for some reason. Why? I'll never know.

 

[Rain(ame)]

It's because double standards need to be erased, in all reality. I do agree with the points being made here. Gender equality does have warped views. The problem is this: The more women have been fighting for, the less they are willing to give up. Equality needs compromise. Give and take is the only way equality will happen. If a woman gets a job being a labor worker in construction she should be able to do just as much as a man. This is a point that women make...they can handle just as much.

That being said....the idea that a woman shouldn't be forced to push herself physically should be frowned upon by WOMEN. Instead, you see the opposite for the most part. Women won't care if a guy tries to help them out of that...rather chivalrous act. However, let a man SAY that in a way that a woman doesn't like...and she'll protest it and make claims.

Women say that stereotypes against them should be stopped. Well...it's not nice to point the finger when women, in general, take every opportunity to attack men with stereotypes. If a man looks in a general direction of a woman, it's wrong. If a woman looks at a bunch of men, it's okay. These are the ideas being promoted.


I'm not saying ALL women are like that, but a good majority are. They accept parts of equality and yet, they don't embrace it fully. In essence, it drives men to look at gender equality as more and more less viable. In order for it to be truly equal, both women and men need to stop these double standards. Men have gone into fields that were once primarily thought to be for women and do just fine. Women are fully capable of doing fine in jobs that were once thought of for only men. They also need to stop feeding stereotypes in general. This goes for both sides.

In terms of payment, effort, legality, and generalization, a greater effort needs to be put forth on both sides. Otherwise it's not equality, it's just looking for more ways for one gender to be greater than the other.

 

[Aorist]

We already have a thread about feminism.

In there, you will find several rebuttals to your claims. There's a similar one in DH that has more.

 

[Chis]

This thread isn't called feminism. Please reread the topic. A lot of threads here are similar to ones in the debate hall, a lot of topics get recycled as I've seen over the months.

I'll get this post later.

 

[Aorist]

Yeah, the thread isn't called feminism. But it's about feminism. Feminism is about gender equality. Just because you're talking about the few effects gender equality favours women over men does not make it any less so - the name "feminism" is somewhat confusing for people who don't understand.

I feel you may have misinterpreted, though. There is a PG Feminism Thread, and when they saw how it was getting in here, they also made a DH one.

Anyway, I'd thank people to stop making gross over-generalisations without sources, thanks. The plural of anecdote is not data.

That being said....the idea that a woman shouldn't be forced to push herself physically should be frowned upon by WOMEN. Instead, you see the opposite for the most part. Women won't care if a guy tries to help them out of that...rather chivalrous act. However, let a man SAY that in a way that a woman doesn't like...and she'll protest it and make claims.

Women say that stereotypes against them should be stopped. Well...it's not nice to point the finger when women, in general, take every opportunity to attack men with stereotypes. If a man looks in a general direction of a woman, it's wrong. If a woman looks at a bunch of men, it's okay. These are the ideas being promoted.

Go on. Explain to me how you can distinguish a nice act from chivalry.

And these stereotypes that you put forward I haven't seen evidence of.

And, you know, when about four times as many women are ***** as men (for the source on this, use the other feminism thread), they have the right to be a bit more wary about sexual advances than men do.

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

I feel that women have more rights than men.
They get more oppertunities to get into college, too.
No one ever opens the door for me :[

I understand we as a country had less rights for women than males did years and years ago. But we cannot fix that by giving them more than males have.

If a girl agrees to have sex with a man, and then calls the police and says it was ****, what will happen?
What will happen if a guy has sex with a girl, and calls the police and says he was *****?

We already have a thread about feminism.

In there, you will find several rebuttals to your claims. There's a similar one in DH that has more.

There's also a thread in here called two sides of the story that debates like 8trillion topics at once all of which that has threads, but no one seems to mind that.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Wow...Okay, I didn't think that someone was going to respond in this way. Cool beans


A nice act would be a man seeing a woman struggle with something, and offering to carry that. An act that might be taken as offensive would be a man just grabbing something and saying "Women shouldn't lift heavy things." Or something along those lines. Now while that second act is all meant well in good, there are women who take offense to that. I've seen it (thankfully haven't been a part of THAT fiasco) and it's not pretty.


Now the stereotypes...you haven't seen them? Not once? I find that rather hard to believe. "Men are pigs" "Men are dogs" "What EXACTLY were you looking at?" (that's a popular one) "Men don't EVER think" "Men are so insensitive" "Men are so immature" "You know...it's a known fact that Women mature faster than men" (Maybe physically, but not mentally" "Men are such children" The list goes on, and I swear I can't get through a day without hearing something along those lines at least once.


Now as far as the four times as many women get ***** situation...you know that some of those numbers aren't even true, right? There are women that CLAIM ****, and get away with it because they have law in their favor. Also...how about the fact that men are being hospitalized and nearly killed because of women? Let's not forget about Andre Risen...his house got BURNED DOWN, for goodness sake. We have another recent event of a football player's girlfriend stabbing him in the neck,(witha pair of scissors, I believe) and sending him to the hospital. Loraina Bobbit (I think I spelled that wrong) did...well she castrated her husband. There was another woman who killed her husband because she FELT threatened. Instead of calling the police she got a gun and, note, WENT BACK to her house, and shot him. The woman had enough right to call and have him imprisoned for a LONG time, but instead she killed him. She didn't get much time, either.

All I'm saying is that the gender equality situation doesn't seem to be making things TOTALLY better, but rather making it easier for women to brutally attack men and get away with pretty much a slap on the wrist. The OP said it best when he mentioned how it's okay for a woman to hit a man, but it's a felony for a man to hit a woman. My mother even told me that you don't hit a woman, but by no means let her sit there and beat on you either. Why is it that a man has to sit there and take it, but a woman can lash back with lethal force?

If a woman sees a man looking in the general direction of a woman...may not even bee looking at him. She can hit him, call him a dog or a pig, and it's justified. If a man sees a woman CLEARLY looking at a man, and he says something about it, he's wrong for calling her out. He can hit her in the way she does him. He can't even call her a name. He just has to sit there and take it. If he DOES say something, it's suddenly a big issue.

If you say you haven't seen that...I'd really love to know what world you're living in, because I'd be there in a heartbeat.

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

I am a guy, who got ***** on two seperate occasions(once mildly, and once severely). Because I am not female, not only does it not become as high of a priority, or tragic, but it instead becomes humorous.

 

[Chis]

Yeah, the thread isn't called feminism. But it's about feminism. Feminism is about gender equality.

I was merely pointing out a few examples people tend to turn a blind eye too. This thread isn't about feminism.

Anyway, I'd thank people to stop making gross over-generalisations without sources, thanks. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Explain.

And these stereotypes that you put forward I haven't seen evidence of.

Oh really? So you've never seen a woman slap a man before? I was merely give examples. So you've never seen gender discrimination before?

And, you know, when about four times as many women are ***** as men (for the source on this, use the other feminism thread), they have the right to be a bit more wary about sexual advances than men do.

I don't trust that does are correct. Those only those incidences that were reported where counted. Don't you know that there are a lot of men and women that don't report **** because of fear and humiliation?

 

[Aorist]

I feel that women have more rights than men.
They get more oppertunities to get into college, too.
No one ever opens the door for me :[

I understand we as a country had less rights for women than males did years and years ago. But we cannot fix that by giving them more than males have.

Yeah? You're sad that some women some of the time have chivalrous lads open the door? I'm sure that must be a huge consolation to the woman when it's much harder for her to get a job, when equal pay is something that she can hardly dream of, when she has that much more chance of getting ***** or of domestic abuse, when the blatant objectification of the female body in media means that she is ridiculously body-conscious, so on and so forth.

Sources:
http://www.aauw.org/research/upload/behindPayGap.pdf
http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2005/17/gorman.html
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/faq-what-is-the-“male-gaze”/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_against_women
http://www2.ucsc.edu/****-prevention/statistics.html (See the section on **** and Gender)

And women are discriminated against socially, too. When was the last time you heard a guy being called a ****? Or got wolf-whistled on the street?

I'm not going to argue affirmative action, though I believe in it. It's not an intuitive concept, so I'm going to wait until DH before I argue it.

A nice act would be a man seeing a woman struggle with something, and offering to carry that. An act that might be taken as offensive would be a man just grabbing something and saying "Women shouldn't lift heavy things." Or something along those lines. Now while that second act is all meant well in good, there are women who take offense to that. I've seen it (thankfully haven't been a part of THAT fiasco) and it's not pretty.

Good work. You see, in the first thing, gender doesn't matter. It's the fact that they're struggling. But check out the second one, in which he's being sexist. It might seem like "good" sexism, because she no longer has to carry stuff, but it's not. It reinforces the notion that women are weak and have to be protected, and it's clear how that can reinforce all kinds of negative sexism.

Now the stereotypes...you haven't seen them? Not once? I find that rather hard to believe. "Men are pigs" "Men are dogs" "What EXACTLY were you looking at?" (that's a popular one) "Men don't EVER think" "Men are so insensitive" "Men are so immature" "You know...it's a known fact that Women mature faster than men" (Maybe physically, but not mentally" "Men are such children" The list goes on, and I swear I can't get through a day without hearing something along those lines at least once.

Wow, some women are jerks too? Stunning. Guys do that too.

Now as far as the four times as many women get ***** situation...you know that some of those numbers aren't even true, right? There are women that CLAIM ****, and get away with it because they have law in their favor. Also...how about the fact that men are being hospitalized and nearly killed because of women?

Yeah, I know. Socially, men are less likely to report ****... Wait, what? The number of people who won't believe a women is staggering? How about the fact that a male rapist is more likely to be able to knock the crap out of a women if she reports? Ah, I'll let the fine men of DH handle this:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6889839&postcount=2

If a woman sees a man looking in the general direction of a woman...may not even bee looking at him. She can hit him, call him a dog or a pig, and it's justified. If a man sees a woman CLEARLY looking at a man, and he says something about it, he's wrong for calling her out. He can hit her in the way she does him. He can't even call her a name. He just has to sit there and take it. If he DOES say something, it's suddenly a big issue.

Yeah, again, when you're far more likely to be sexually assaulted, you have the right to be cautious. And I think you'll find that whatever else she does, she can't hit him.

I am a guy, who got ***** on two seperate occasions(once mildly, and once severely). Because I am not female, not only does it not become as high of a priority, or tragic, but it instead becomes humorous.

I believe you. That must have been terrible, and I'm so sorry.

But it doesn't make up for the sheer number of women who get *****.

Explain.

Bar you, not a single other person has used sources. This is meant to be a debate.

Oh really? So you've never seen a woman slap a man before? I was merely give examples. So you've never seen gender discrimination before?

I've seen gender discrimination. It tends to happen against women, in my experience. I've seen women slap men occasionally. I haven't seen domestic violence, because it occurs behind closed doors, but wow does that happen a lot more to women than men (See above source).

I don't trust that does are correct. Those only those incidences that were reported where counted. Don't you know that there are a lot of men and women that don't report **** because of fear and humiliation?

Check out the link to the smashboards thread earlier in my post.

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

Yeah? You're sad that some women some of the time have chivalrous lads open the door? I'm sure that must be a huge consolation to the woman when it's much harder for her to get a job, when equal pay is something that she can hardly dream of, when she has that much more chance of getting ***** or of domestic abuse, when the blatant objectification of the female body in media means that she is ridiculously body-conscious, so on and so forth.

Sources:
http://www.aauw.org/research/upload/behindPayGap.pdf
http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2005/17/gorman.html
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/faq-what-is-the-“male-gaze”/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_against_women
http://www2.ucsc.edu/****-prevention/statistics.html (See the section on **** and Gender)

I'm not sad that a kind gentleman would open the door for a lady. That's hardly the case in point. The issue is that women have different rights, instead of equal rights. They should be payed the same as us, and should have EQUAL oppertunity to get into college. The system currently is fixing the issues with 'Well, there are inequalities, so lets boost other rights to make up for it'.

And women are discriminated against socially, too. When was the last time you heard a guy being called a ****? Or got wolf-whistled on the street?

I've seen just about everyone get discriminated against at one time or another. If you aren't a heterosexual white christian middle-aged male, there's a group of people who dislike you and discriminate against you. I've been called every four letter word that smashboards would censor, especially female-exclusive ones. I feel as if you are demonizing the entire male gender as perverted violent heterosexual rapists. If you actually have seen a woman get 'wolf-whistled' at, or discriminated against, it is just like any other form of discrimination. Stand up for them, if you feel passionately about ending their discrimination.

I believe you. That must have been terrible, and I'm so sorry.
But it doesn't make up for the sheer number of women who get *****.

Thanks, it's something that I'm more than over, however it's something that i'll never forget, and has effected my personality deeply. That's why I am so passionate about preventing ****, regardless of gender.
You also have to flip the statistics a certian way to ignore something that is happening a lot in these **** cases. The female lied. It happens more often than you think, and just like females are more likely to be *****, they are more likely to lie about being *****. Not only that, but when they lie, they get away with it with a high rate of success.

"About 40 percent of the cases worked by the department’s sexual assault investigators turn out to be false, but the complainants are rarely charged" --Cpl. Sara Schriver(Police Spokeswoman) {source}

So if close to 1 in every 2 **** cases are a lie, how does that affect your statistic of females who claim ****?
And also, may I ask why these females who lie about being ***** bearly have any conciquence to commiting these crimes? Surely, they are not being discriminated against in the courts.

"She has destroyed my family life, my social life, and she has destroyed me economically. She destroyed my credibility."
1 of many instances of girls lying about being *****, and getting away with next to no punishment.

 

[Aorist]

The system currently is fixing the issues with 'Well, there are inequalities, so lets boost other rights to make up for it'.

Source, please. Mainly with regards to "The system currently is fixing", but I'd like to see at least a couple of places where they've got better rights, without it making it worse off for them.

I think you'll find that chivalry actually ends up being bad for women. It plays into the stereotype that they are weak and need protecting, and is a carryover from the whole knightly ideal system. So their rights aren't being boosted, they're being lowered. Again.

I feel as if you are demonizing the entire male gender as perverted violent heterosexual rapists. If you actually have seen a woman get 'wolf-whistled' at, or discriminated against, it is just like any other form of discrimination. Stand up for them, if you feel passionately about ending their discrimination.

I'm clearly not. It's been a theme in my posts that even when people are discriminated against, they can still be jerks, and people who aren't jerks can enjoy privelige.

And yes, I do stand up for them. But that is tangential to the topic.

So if close to 1 in every 2 **** cases are a lie, how does that affect your statistic of females who claim ****?
And also, may I ask why these females who lie about being ***** bearly have any conciquence to commiting these crimes? Surely, they are not being discriminated against in the courts.

Well, it doesn't. Because the Bureau of Statistics doesn't go by **** reports, it goes by confirmed incidences of ****.

And I'm highly suspect of your statistics. There are a variety of ***** that even if the victim got the courage to report, would be turned down. Partner ****, for instance. Courts don't recognise **** between married people.

And the time she served seems to be fairly normal for "perverting the course of justice". And don't forget she has a criminal record, now.

The source you provided for the 40% is 404ing. But from the quote, it doesn't mention any gender bias in lying.

And you've failed to provide a source that shows that men lie less.

 

[ArcPoint]

Even if the number is reduced by half - Women still "get *****" more than men, and they have a good reason to be cautious.

And since when is being nice to someone calling them weak? If you were to open the door for a man, should they stop and say "Stop calling me weak!" I don't get why this shouldn't be applied to something like holding the door open for a women. Are you calling them weak? No, you're just being respectful.

 

[Aorist]

If society dictates that you hold open the door, pull out chairs, carry their stuff, basically treat them as though any physical action is too much, yeah, you're acting as though they are weak and can't defend themselves.

 

[Zero Beat]

That's a good point Aorist, and I've thought about it for a long time now.

Is it really "just" tradition to do those gestures, or good manners? I believe these gestures derive from the thought of males feeling as though females are weaker. As time passed by, it was looked at as good manners, since it is rather convenient sometimes when the door is opened for you.

But it had to start somewhere, and looking down on the physical abilities of women isn't a bad guess. Personally, I am all up for equality, you can open that door as well as I can, it's a matter of who gets to it first.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

If society dictates that you hold open the door, pull out chairs, carry their stuff, basically treat them as though any physical action is too much, yeah, you're acting as though they are weak and can't defend themselves.

Or as their slave, who thinks that physical action is beyond them (the women). Though this could just be generosity, or kindness.

 

[Aorist]

Or as their slave, who thinks that physical action is beyond them (the women). Though this could just be generosity, or kindness.

You'll have to rephrase - I don't truly understand what you're saying.

 

[Skrah]

If society dictates that you hold open the door, pull out chairs, carry their stuff, basically treat them as though any physical action is too much, yeah, you're acting as though they are weak and can't defend themselves.

I think this has transformed into men being chivalrous and respectful to women.

Before it probably meant to help pregnant women. Since they have the burden of the child and are generally weaker in that state, men opened the door for them and pull out their chairs because they already had a hard time about it. Later on, it just became good manners.

 

[Aorist]

The origin honestly doesn't matter. The fact that nursery rhymes tend to originate from "evil" things like the Black Plague or the guillotine doesn't make nursery rhymes today evil. By the same token, no matter what the origin of chivalry, it only matters what it does now. And what it does now is demean women.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

You'll have to rephrase - I don't truly understand what you're saying.

Sorry, I meant: Or as their slave, who thinks that women are 'above' physical work.

 

[Skrah]

That's what I'm saying. It's not demeaning. It possibly had a demeaning purpose before, but now its basically good manners. Male children today are being taught to be chivalrous because its good manners. It's meaning as a demeaning act has been forgotten.

Let's put it like this. Would you hit a girl? It is common now that men don't hit girls. So is it demeanig? In my opinion, it is not. Men hit harder than girls. Maybe some girls hit harder than some boys, but generally its the other way around. Sports have Men category and Women category. It's not demeaning. Men are stronger than women.

 

[Aorist]

Yeah, men hitting women isn't a problem anymore? Hang on, it is. SOURCE

Even if it did have an effect, that would be irrelevant. Demeaning is different to being helpful or harmful. If you were forced to be locked indoors all day, yeah, you'd be less likely to hurt yourself. But it would be amazingly demeaning and a restriction of your person freedoms. How about if you weren't disallowed from going outside, but every time you did go outside you'd be called a ***** and the society that you know would shun you?

Right. We're taught not to abuse, to be kind and stuff to everybody. Surely this ought to be enough to cover you doing that to girls, who happen to be included under the heading of "everybody"? Why would chivalry work and those even more basic things we are taught not be?

Furthermore, even if you demonstrably prove that chivalry has a lowering effect upon the number of women who get physically abused, that doesn't give any reason for the other things that chivalry calls for.

 

[Skrah]

Sorry, I didn't express my thoughts clearly enough. I meant that men are taught to not hit girls. Obviously there is violence against women.

Education is all we can give to guide people through. It really depends on the parents and/or schools.

And what are those "other reasons" you're talking about?

 

[Aorist]

I assume you are referring to

the other things that chivalry calls for.

In which case, I am referring to opening a door for a girl, pulling out her chair, giving girls your coat etc.

 

[Skrah]

I've seen girls pull out the chair, opening the door, and other chivalrous acts to their grandparents. It's not an act that spews out superiority, but it comes out of respect.

 

[Aorist]

I'm not sure about you, but when I pull out chairs and open doors for old people, I do it because they're weak and can strain muscles, or can't balance properly, or due to any number of health concerns. Not really out of respect.

 

[Skrah]

So then you have a different reason to do that sort of thing. So you're saying that you open doors or carry girl's stuff because you think they are weak, too?

 

[Aorist]

So then you have a different reason to do that sort of thing. So you're saying that you open doors or carry girl's stuff because you think they are weak, too?

I'm equal-opportunity chivalrous. I open doors for guys and girls, I carry stuff for anyone who's struggling.

Your point?

 

[KrazyGlue]

I think that everybody is being way too one-sided. People don't fully understand each other's issues. You can't over-generalize and only argue one side of the case when clearly there is plenty of abuse (both physical and mental) coming from and going towards both genders. Seriously, we all know that it's not ok for people to hit each other, and if someone actually sees this happening in a non-joking manner, they will often take it seriously. I understand that in a few specific cases that people have listed, men haven't been believed as much in abuse cases, but I'm positively sure that some similar things happen to women sometimes as well. Both sexes have to face gender equality issues, unfortunately.