Ganon's Fair is God Tier

[RaphaelRobo]

No. First it was Sheik. Then Ike. Now Lucario. ZSS is next.

 

[DMG]

Lucario was a legit john. That MU was only ok for Ganon if:

1. You CG them massively

2. They dunno how to on hit cancel fly around goku

When the stars align and those conditions are met, Ganon can win and even stomp.

Ganon vs Ike feels much more doable now.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah. ike got nerfed pretty hard. Everything loses several frames of advantage on shield (2-3) now, except for the tip, which lost one damage, meaning one frame in some cases and none in others. Just get in on top of him now and shield everything. Getting in on top of him worked before. but shielding wasn't effective. Now all we need is for melee shield pushback to return, and even lucario will have an effective shield against ike.

 

[GHNeko]

It's entirely possible for stuffed to be retweaked when new system changes are made.

 

[DrinkingFood]

i don't like pmbr tweaking ike. last time he got pretty ****ed over. so i'd rather the last changes he got were just engine changes that only nerfed him indirectly. that way he can just be left a hollow shell of his former self rather than just being nerfed out of the game completely, and all the ike mains can put on a happy face and smile for the world while we cry silently inside for what could have been.

Also, if you ganon mains didnt already know, you can drift during the fall portion of a succesful side-b grab.

 

[GHNeko]

Sir. You're being quite melodramatic lol.

But regardless.

What's like the best move to use after a successful TK Side B?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sir. You're being quite melodramatic lol.

I'm exaggerating for effect.

What do you mean by "TK"?

 

[GHNeko]

Tiger Knee.

TFG term lol. I wasn't thinking when i made the post.

To TK a move is to do the move in the air, but as close to the ground as possible, so it's like you're doing an instant aerial move.

 

[KayB]

Usually a tech chase with side-b, dair, and occasionally bair and fair.

 

[Steam]

I honestly don't have a problem facing lucarios (no good ones in my region). I just hate his design as a whole.

also I don't think PM ganon has any bad moves other than the obvious utilt and warlock punch... and maybe Dtilt because Ftilt usually outclasses it.

 

[Raziek]

So I got to play around with 2.5 at Apex and I'm interested in playing this game more seriously.

Can I get a laundry list of basic **** to know about Ganon? I'll almost certainly be maining him, but most of the stuff I was doing was just improvising with Flame Choke and cheesy tech-chases. Just basic goofy **** that you can do in Melee/Brawl.

 

[GHNeko]

Nair is good because of when it ACs.
DACUS is great for tech chasing, as well as platform tech chasing.
Aerial Side B > Grounded Side B, that being said they're both really good for tech chase set ups.
Uthrow is really good at combos, so dont forget that.

That's about it for basics.

Also, **** DeSu 2.

jk. <3 DeSu 2. DeSu OC is my favorite tho. Dat 8th day.

 

[Raziek]

I still need to play Overclocked, haven't done the 8th day stuff yet. D:

 

[GHNeko]

Haru is the biggest **** tease everrrrr asdlksjgdsaf

i really wanted

Spoiler

that romantic ending with her. but nooooooooo. i dont get ****.

****ing atlus.

;_;

But 8th day is pretty **** lol.

Also, those VAs omfg so good.

 

[Raziek]

Naoya's I found rather off-putting from like the hour I played before I got sidetracked, and he's my favorite character.

I'll possibly get back to it after Radiant Historia.

 

[GHNeko]

Yo. Naoya's route is best route.

Seriously.

My god what a great route.

Spoiler

Especially when i get to get rid of Yuzu and ****ING MAGICAL GIRL DOLLY FLKJAS:FLKASDASKLAJGLAS HOLY **** **** HER

>___>

 

[Steam]

won my first P:M tourney yesterday going 100% ganon :D

Ftilt is broken.

 

[Kati]

Is it just me or is the dash attack weaker?

 

[Raziek]

So I got 4th at a local PM tourney today going solo Ganon.

Does anyone have any tips for how to deal with Falco? I got my pants blooped off. Stages, possible secondaries (I also play Snake, if that might go better), general strategies?

 

[DMG]

You HAVE to get Falco offstage. Doesn't matter if you Jab, Down B, Throw him off. Get his *** out there and he dies.

Onstage, you won't be able to SH approach very much. Full hop or DJ over lasers, just don't commit to Fair very often it becomes punishable quick. If you can PS reflect them back, that's also an amazing tool for Ganon to relieve the pressure while also helping him get in. Falco MU isn't very fun imo, and you're probably better off with a secondary unless you are very good at tech chasing/getting them offstage. Secondary I'd recommend? Marth probably. Maybe Mario... that's about it really.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Falco is a terrible MU for Ganon in Melee, and tbh I can't see it being much better for him in PM. I strongly recommend a secondary.

 

[Raziek]

Well, Marth wouldn't be too difficult for me to pick up for that, given that I play him in Brawl.

Thanks for the advice, guys.

 

[DMG]

No problem. Don't forget to put your weekly allowances into the "Ganon is God" collection plate.

 

[yahyakun]

I think ganon's hitboxes are too big. Fair is just unfair. Dair has huge hitbox and and Down B does a lot of thing that u say "WTF, how did he hit me?"
and i dont want to talk about U smash. is just ridiculous.
Every time someone picks ganon, I immediately place my hand in peach or sheik. now i cant counter ganon with jiggs, ganon is too "Jablador, Mentiroso" thats the spanish term we use to say he does thing that they seem impossible and incomprehensible.

I hope PMBR makes ganon a lil bit more fair and less "jablador", as i explained.

 

[DMG]

???

Jiggs does fine vs Ganon, nothing changed for him that made the MU significantly better. Down B is the same, Fair and Dair are the same, Jab is the same, etc.

 

[Steam]

why does no one ever talk about ftilt? I've gotten my whole scene to pretty much agree that ganon ftilt is broken as hell. completely dumps on a lot of recoveries and is fast, rather safe, and sends people off at nasty angles. I'm pretty sure jab > ftilt on block is a frame trap and will put an opponent at a distance they can't really punish from unless you were like in your grab range.

honestly the only matchups I think really suck are sheik and charizard (probably lucario too). sheik is still sheik and charizard's nair shuts ganon's game completely down. spacies aren't so bad IMO but probably just because ganon has more tools now than he did in melee.

on the flipside I think falcon for example is now strongly in ganon's favor, just because it's soooo much easier than in melee. probably due to ftilt being so much better.

edit: also here are some matches from the tourney the other week. both sets were against afro. he recently moved from fl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_fgtIdPSfo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBBN31bSHM0

 

[KOkingpin]

I think ganon's hitboxes are too big. Fair is just unfair. Dair has huge hitbox and and Down B does a lot of thing that u say "WTF, how did he hit me?"
and i dont want to talk about U smash. is just ridiculous.
Every time someone picks ganon, I immediately place my hand in peach or sheik. now i cant counter ganon with jiggs, ganon is too "Jablador, Mentiroso" thats the spanish term we use to say he does thing that they seem impossible and incomprehensible.

I hope PMBR makes ganon a lil bit more fair and less "jablador", as i explained.

I hate to say this but Ganon's Fair >> Jab set up works exactly the same in Melee. And the end lag on Up smash and hit boxes are the same as well. If that Ganon playing you was smart he would just chain throw your sheik 0-60 and kill you. You just need to work on baiting Ganon players more. If he misses a Fair you can punish the **** out of him with jigglypuff.

Falco vs Ganon is all about how well you can power shield and punish. If you grab Falco you can pretty easily take a stock on most neutrals.

 

[DMG]

I don't agree with Falcon Ganon being strongly in Ganon's favor. It might have shifted more towards even, and I think the auto cancel buff to Nair + Side B tech chasing shifts it more than Ftilt. Falcon tech options kinda bad/slow, landing Side B into Down B is pretty easy on him once the Side B lands.

 

[BTmoney]

I don't think that tech chase is enough to put the MU in ganon's favor. I remember wobbles saying that ganon is 1 a huge target, which falcon can abuse to no end, and 2 he does not have a way to get out of falcon combos since he can't throw out any aerials fast other than uair. His landing options are also not the best.
I think falcon wins it, still, but it is more than conceivable to win with ganon.


I seriously can't believe ganon's uptilt hasn't been revamped or repurposed lol. It's still completely useless. I'm all for a new uptilt. I mean his neutral B is more useful since you can reverse it and wavebounce and mind game your opponent into doing something completely stupid at best. Uptilt is just a troll move lol.

(which I actually managed to do lol, I stood next to a shielding opponent and reversed it like 5 times and got them to roll in the wrong direction. They got so confused but this tech is completely useless especially after the first time someone sees it lol)

 

[Raziek]

I got someone with Utilt in tourney the other night!

They whiffed Ness's get up attack.

 

[DrinkingFood]

"^PROOF UTILT ISN'T USELESS AND DOESN'T NEED TO BE CHANGED"
-pmbr

 

[batistabus]

Honestly, I'd just prefer if Ganon didn't have an up-tilt at all. My only use for it is doing it accidentally and getting punished.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I use Utilt to punish when Puff misses Rest.

 

[DrinkingFood]

If it had a startup hitbox when he raised his leg that could cause knockdown (like ROB's usmash), a stronger, longer reach windbox(es) (to drag in bad rolls), and super armor (a strong move by a heavy character, makes sense) once he let go of his leg until the first frame of the hitbox, it might actually have a use on platforms/near the edge where rolling options are limited, especially if someone techs incorrectly. I think all those changes wouldn't be too strange and definitely not out of the question considering the move sucks. BUT ALAS! PMBR doesn't take suggestions from non-PMBR.
Finally using his sword on nB like Marth did in his vBrawl version would also make it a good tech chase option for when characters only have one good rolling option, since it would have insane reach with insane power, think ganon's arm length + that sword.
I think some of his moves could stand to also have a bit more shield damage. Or maybe I'm just not paying good enough attention to notice whether or not he's gotten buffs there. Definitely doesn't seem like anybody's afraid to shield his **** tho.

tl;dr talking about why ganon actually isn't god tier
but he's still pretty ****ing good tier, as in better than melee ganondorf tier. I'm actually just metasuggesting design tweaks rather than buffs. They happen to just be better for the character, just like Ike's design tweaks just happen to be worse for the character.

 

[Steam]

ganondorf doesn't need an utilt that's good. his ftilt is just good enough by itself.

 

[roymaster803]

The problem with U-tilt is it's the same kind of move as Warlock Punch but since WP has better options U-tilt loses most of it's value other than being able to hit closer to the ledge that WP. The only time I can see using U-tilt is when the opponent is stupid enough to try to recover low and you don't want to go offstage to challenge them.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

WP needs to be faster. Right now you can't really use super-turnaround WP as a taunt between stocks without getting hit. That needs to be fixed.

 

[DLA]

Ganondooooorf.

Also I agree, Utilt is bootycheeks in this game.

 

[UltiMario]

2 days ago I got a Utilt double KO in teams.

If that doesn't say the move is amazing nothing will.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Half of Ganon's moves perform Double KOs in teams. Utilt doing that is nothing special.