Ganondorf Patch 1.1.1 Changes

[jmanup85]

Vermanubis you're gonna have to get used to using shield DI asap.

 

[Vermanubis]

Vermanubis you're gonna have to get used to using shield DI asap.

It's still just a huge pain.

Though, I doubt it'll be in for long. As one guy in the comments pointed out, as sensitive as Nintendo is to casual players, this would be a fast way to make new players quit.

 

[Didier337]

Shield DI tho?

That's a decent option against lucario but it still puts us between a rock and a hard place.Maybe We should find ways to trade with Yoshi's D-air

 

[jmanup85]

Well at full health aim the shield down and Yoshi cant poke through the shield and he's in a bad spot. This patch... feels like it's preliminary. It doesn't feel complete, the characters don't feel balanced at all around the changes that just took place. I think we're gonna see more patches soon to start actually balancing the characters around this mechanic change.

 

[Didier337]

This patch... feels like it's preliminary. It doesn't feel complete, the characters don't feel balanced at all around the changes that just took place.

I feel like it was necessary,mainly because it benefits juggernauts and technicians characters.

Sorry if my character categorization is a bit vague

 

[jmanup85]

But it wasn't necessary. I agree with A2 when he said more shield damage would have benefited us more than shield stun. More than that is that fact that it's a significant engine change and we are merely testers for it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's still just a huge pain.

Though, I doubt it'll be in for long. As one guy in the comments pointed out, as sensitive as Nintendo is to casual players, this would be a fast way to make new players quit.

It's terrible for consistency to change the game this drastically after keeping the core mechanics pretty stable since 1.0.4. I also think it makes the game much jankier and less balanced overall. It's much easier to balance around universally strong defensive options and give the characters with shield issues buffed tools to remedy these issues. Shields should be good and require thought to beat. The worst part to us is the fact that even the weakest of attacks do 3 more frames of shieldstun, so fast, weak moves, including projectiles, become more of a pain to deal with.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I hear that the shieldstun update is based on a damage modifier.

Weaker moves like Sheiks aerials won't get affected much while hard hitting moves will push opponents further away.

 

[verbatim]

What I'm interested in testing is to see if there's a way to use the increased stun to cause more shield breaks. Something like a blocked U-smash to instant air Wiz Foot at the stage edge, for example (remember that the player can't be pushed off the stage while they're shielding!).

Went over a bunch of shield break stuff with a friend. Nothing true combo shield breaks, but we found several circumstances where Ganon shield breaks Sheik if she makes a certain option.

fsmash —> wizfoot
if the opponent runs in and tries to shield an aerial.

ftilt —> short hop wizfoot
Same

dair —> ftilt
if they stay in shield for an extra half a second

up smash stutter step ftilt
same

up smash dash attack
same

I think dair --> ftilt and ftilt --> short hop wizfoot on rush in are two of the "best" options for shield breaks, but dair/fsmash/wizfoot/upsmash are now SLIGHTLY safer in that they can shieldbreak more reliably.

 

[jmanup85]

anything above 10% adds like 2 or something. I think all moves have a +3 regardless

 

[Z1GMA]

The shield stun buff will most likely be a mixed bag. We will be a lot safer on stuff, but I get the feeling quite a few characters will be able to abuse the hell out of our shield.

If the calculations going around are correct though, USmash would likely be +2/+3 after shield drop...lol.

Nair seems cool, still not sure I really understand the changes as there are a few of them. The far hitbox was consistently pulling the opponent in though so that was cool. Low percents DThrow > FH UAir > FF NAir > stuff seems cool.

Also, with the shield stun buff I think now is as important a time to say it as any, all Ganon's should use the reverse UAir hitbox way more. I'm super surprised with how many characters it can hit grounded.

Ye I just tested Usmash with a friend. It's pretty crazy now.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So apparently, Shield stun in Smash 4 could be higher than in Melee:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...shield_stun_andor_shield_hit_lag_have/cvjdzsn

Weow.

 

[Jyro]

I liked using Up-b OoS on characters landing behind my shield, now it doesn't come out as fast because of the increased shield stun

 

[Swoops]

I hear that the shieldstun update is based on a damage modifier.

Weaker moves like Sheiks aerials won't get affected much while hard hitting moves will push opponents further away.

It is based on damage, but with a base +3 frames to every move. The extra shield stun does scale with damage to an extent.

However, all of these moves other current properties aren't scaling with it. So endlag, start up, auto cancel frames, they all stay the same while receiving an additional +3 and more frames of shield stun. A few frames to characters with crazy mobility and 2/3 frame jabs with lenient auto cancel and landing frames means a whole hell of a lot.

Playing against some ZSS at a weekly today...I'm standing by original gut feeling this is not going to look good overall for Ganon

 

[Shmeckie]

I dunno, I think there's a lot to exploit, here. Especially now that u-smash has frame advantage on block. We can challenge opponents air-to-ground much more safely now, and there's a lot of characters that Ganon's going to benefit from that when fighting against.

 

[Darkshadovv]

Really good buff, however minor it is. It's damage is now on par with the pre-nerf sweetspotted dair. But did they really have to keep the sourspots? I feel that they're still holding the move back a bit.

Otherwise, when the heck are Dark Dive, grab reach, and other major flaws are going to get addressed?!

 

[Deotay]

Really good buff, however minor it is. It's damage is now on par with the pre-nerf sweetspotted dair. But did they really have to keep the sourspots? I feel that they're still holding the move back a bit.

Sour spot N-Air's first hit apparently has some very strong combos against small characters. However, our major concern this patch are the Shield Stun changes. More specifically, how badly Ganon may or may not get ****ed by being even worse when under shield pressure.

 

[Z1GMA]

@adom4

Yea that's what I was thinking lol. It's easy to apply generalities to this change and say "everything will be safer!" or "we're going to get wrecked in shield!" but in reality a lot of variables will come into play with a change like this.

I mean I am nervous, but excited nervous lol. Could be sh*tty could be cool.

Don't forget that Ganon has one of the most Power Shield Friendly shields in the game - this coupled with the fact that Ganon Players are really good at PSing in general thx to Ganon being so reliant on it, should mean that this isn't going to be THAT great of a problem in some cases.

In fact, PSing with Ganon should be even more effective now since PSing now pays off better than before, due to the fact that there's a greater difference in PSing and not PSing now.

Believe in your PS-abilities, fellow Dorfs!

 

[Flatfeet]

All this right when there's a national tournament this weekend in my area! I'm enjoying the dthrow - nair at early percents, figuring out followups to that based on characters is proving interesting! Maybe choke on fastfallers?

 

[Gold_TSG]

I played around with the update on 3DS while I was out, and I barely noticed any differences in the shield stun. Am I blind or is it just less noticeable than people are making it out to be?

 

[verbatim]

A 3 frame difference is just under human reaction time,so chances are you won't feel any difference. The real impact is when moves go from being safe on shield to unsafe. 3 frames extra room doesn't seem like much but you can guarantee frame 1 execution if you buffer stuff. For instance, Pacman's dash attack now has a slightly better shieldstun, so so long as I can move one frame before my opponent can, I can just buffer my 1 frame Up B and get away relatively clean.

 

[Swoops]

Gold_TSG

You aren't wrong. There's kind of a trade off with how shields were in 1.1.0 and how they are now 1.1.1

These posts do a lot to clear things up I think.

Tid bit implication theory:

Moves have more shield stun, but they are now eating up shield lock frames.

Let's take sheik's fair pre patch, 1 frame of shield stun.
If she hit you on frame 4 (i.e. you missed power shield), she was getting an "extra 7 frames" of shield stun.

Now the shield stun of the move is 4 frames
but if she hits you on frame 4; she's now only getting "3 extra frames" of shield stun, albeit the overall advantage from hitting a shield on frame 4 is exactly the same.

Ganondorf Forward Air now has 12 frames of shield stun. up from 7.
If ganon hits fair on a frame 4 shield, he was getting an extra 7 frames too, totaling 14 frames of shield stun.
Now ganondorf's just got a total of 12, down over all.
But if you're hitting on frame 5 instead, it's getting even more favourable for ganon's higher damage.

i.e. Sheik was feasibly getting a 8x shield stun modifier on her forward air prior to 1.1.1 if she was really lucky
Ganondorf was getting 2.0x modifier in comparison on his forward air; with likely less luck because it's a 14 frame move in contrast to 5.
Now Sheik is getting 1.75x modifier if she's lucky, Ganondorf is 0.85x but that's a lot less of a comparative dive.
.

To elaborate and clarify Shaya's post, the 7 frames extra "shield stun" Sheik got for hitting shield on f5 pre-patch because of shield lock frames and stun frames not overlapping is not actual shield stun. You could roll, or use OoS options, but you could not shield drop (locked in shield).

So in certain scenarios this is quite noticeable (ZSS' ZAir, Pikachu's eletric attacks) but in other scenarios not so much. However with the new system things are being treated as "true" shield stun that you can't even dodge or jump out of instead of leftover "lock" frames that were based on what frame you hit the opponent's shield and that you could otherwise perform actions out of.

Thumbs up if you're confused because I sure as hell am.

 

[_Magus_]

I played around with the update on 3DS while I was out, and I barely noticed any differences in the shield stun. Am I blind or is it just less noticeable than people are making it out to be?

I feel you, I'm not noticing much in the way of shield stun. As I said above, the game just feels more sluggish to me in general. Could be the shield stun, could just be me. Idk.

 

[Gold_TSG]

A lot of this stuff confuses me because I don't grasp the technical side of smash. I just play the game.

 

[mgleed]

Well at full health aim the shield down and Yoshi cant poke through the shield and he's in a bad spot. This patch... feels like it's preliminary. It doesn't feel complete, the characters don't feel balanced at all around the changes that just took place. I think we're gonna see more patches soon to start actually balancing the characters around this mechanic change.

Preliminary seems right to me. Who knows what else will be discovered in the coming weeks.

 

[Didier337]

mgleed

Looks like diddy is banned at big house.

 

[Swoops]

So this NAir rework is super weird. I finally got a chance to sit down with it and I had a tough time finding the hitbox that pops almost straight up.

It's like right at the ankle, but it has to be the 12% sweet spot I think? Any time I hit Sheik barely outside that range I couldn't seem to get it.

Seems super useful though, the dthrow > NAir is legit if they don't DI out. Was able to to get DA and jab as a true combo, but couldn't connect Uair in time. NAir1 > NAir is cool and great damage though.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm pretty iffy with the change. While having an extra, higher damaging attack out of dthrow is nice, the fact that it's so inconsistent anywhere else makes it more of a hindrance to me. I spent so much time working on the old nair that this just feels too weird. The hit I'm used to doing the hard hit isn't doing that very well (if at all) anymore, and that extra gimping potential offstage with the second kick just feels unnecessary, as he was doing fine in the previous patch.

It's like Sakurai wants to make it just like Captain Falcon's, but doesn't. I would have been happier with a faster jab or stronger up B or slightly more grab range.

 

[DabuzsPikachu]

So this NAir rework is super weird. I finally got a chance to sit down with it and I had a tough time finding the hitbox that pops almost straight up.

It's like right at the ankle, but it has to be the 12% sweet spot I think? Any time I hit Sheik barely outside that range I couldn't seem to get it.

Seems super useful though, the dthrow > NAir is legit if they don't DI out. Was able to to get DA and jab as a true combo, but couldn't connect Uair in time. NAir1 > NAir is cool and great damage though.

The dair to U-air was true before the update, the rework is amazing though. Is N-air particularly safe on shield, cause if it is, its lot better range, and it feeds Ganon a grab.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So this NAir rework is super weird. I finally got a chance to sit down with it and I had a tough time finding the hitbox that pops almost straight up.

It's like right at the ankle, but it has to be the 12% sweet spot I think? Any time I hit Sheik barely outside that range I couldn't seem to get it.

Seems super useful though, the dthrow > NAir is legit if they don't DI out. Was able to to get DA and jab as a true combo, but couldn't connect Uair in time. NAir1 > NAir is cool and great damage though.

Adding on to this (though it isn't really major), Nair is weirdly inconsistent in Training mode for some reason. Even though it looks like it hits, it doesn't seem to true combo consistently on the combo counter.

Sometimes it will true combo when the first kick connects with an opponent at the thigh, sometimes it will combo when the first kick hits an opponent at the middle of his leg.

That said, I am content with what we have.

 

[Theosmeo]

Nair is a lot of fun, especially out of dtilt, it´s even more useful for edgeguarding now, because the second hit box is less gimpy and more smashy now. I´m loving it out of WKCs aswell. I´ll have to get used to following up with ftilt, dtilt, or grab out of low % frame canceled Nairs though. I also found an interesting application: if someone´s too close to ganon when the first hit of dsmash comes out they´ll fly forward instead of backwards into the second hit, I find SH nair to gerudo is an excellent way to follow up this sour spot.

 

[Z1GMA]

Has anybody tried out his Customs yet? If yes - are there any changes made to them?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Has anybody tried out his Customs yet? If yes - are there any changes made to them?

Heard nothing from Thinkaman, so its safe to assume there isn't anything changed customs-wise.

 

[Z1GMA]

Heard nothing from Thinkaman, so its safe to assume there isn't anything changed customs-wise.

Too bad. Warlock Burst should be turned into an attack that summons one of those flying, burning skulls with Bat Wings instead.

 

[Blobface]

The sweetspot for N-air, the one that pops them straight up, appears to be on the air burst effect of the first kick. Something to keep in mind when spacing it.

 

[Didier337]

if we look deeper into N-air's properties I wonder what recoveries we can edge guard or atleast trade with.

 

[S_B]

It may not be the buffs we wanted, but this is a pretty nice buff!

Before the buff, landing both hits of n-air got you some pretty great damage from single-digit percentages (21% from a single, fast attack). Not only has the attack been reworked so both hits link properly (it seems like the first hit actually pulls opponents in at lower %s), but the second hit was buffed! So you get both hits much more often for a bigger damage payout! And that second hit isn't the lemon it used to be!

It's not what I wanted, but dammit I'll happily take it!

Yeah, I'd gladly take that over Bowser's nair buff...

 

[_Magus_]

This patch could easily change the Ganon ditto fundamentally. A lot of the ditto meta game, at least from what I've seen, revolves around proper application of shield, since Ganon struggles to deal with it. However, the new shieldstun equation coupled with the strength of Ganon's attacks could quite possibly make shield a less pivotal aspect of the MU. The ditto could possibly get even more aggressive, which I would love to see personally.

 

[Blobface]

This patch could easily change the Ganon ditto fundamentally. A lot of the ditto meta game, at least from what I've seen, revolves around proper application of shield, since Ganon struggles to deal with it. However, the new shieldstun equation coupled with the strength of Ganon's attacks could quite possibly make shield a less pivotal aspect of the MU. The ditto could possibly get even more aggressive, which I would love to see personally.

I feel like Ganon is generally going to be more aggressive in this new patch. F-air and B-air being safe-on-shield, N-air now being a good combo starter, and Aerial Wizkick threatening shieldbreaks will hopefully allow him to do so.

 

[_Magus_]

I feel like Ganon is generally going to be more aggressive in this new patch. F-air and B-air being safe-on-shield, N-air now being a good combo starter, and Aerial Wizkick threatening shieldbreaks will hopefully allow him to do so.

That's the problem though. The patch would force Ganon to be more aggressive, but against naturally aggressive characters like sheik he struggles to keep up. In those aggressive match ups, shield was a huge defensive asset, and one that made those MUs winnable. But now, with shield being nerfed to the advantage of sheik and other aggressive characters, I can't help but think Ganon will struggle with those match ups more.