Data Ganondorf: Hitboxes and Frame Data [3.6]

[Sartron]

Hey, @ Sartron , is shield stun measured in frames? For example, if one of the hitbox info things says that a move has 7 shield stun, does that mean that the guy in the shield cannot act out of his shield for 7 frames?

Yes. Stun and hitlag is measured in frames, as well as the advantage.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Sartron

How are you calculating frame advantage, specifically autocancels on aerials? Dair is supposedly +6 on shield when autocancelled. How? If it has 11 frames of shield stun, and you hit on the 20th frame, you have to wait till frame 31 to AC. Shieldstun will end as you are going through your AC landing lag. So isn't -5?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Sorry, double post...

 

[Sartron]

Aerial frame advantage is (Shieldstun - Landing Lag).

This formula doesn't really work for auto-canceling because of auto-canceling windows.
I was just really lazy when it came to auto-canceled frame advantages. I treated them as a little bonus to the information. I'll go ahead and take initiative and fix all of them.

EDIT: This thread's all fixed. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

[Binary Clone]

None of the GIFs seem to be hosted any longer. Is this just me? None of them are showing up, and I'm getting a webpage not found message if I try to go directly to the images.

 

[Sartron]

None of the GIFs seem to be hosted any longer. Is this just me? None of them are showing up, and I'm getting a webpage not found message if I try to go directly to the images.

Domain expired, GIFs will be down for a time I cannot say until I talk to the site owner.

EDIT: Site is back up.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What is "WDSK"? Its right in between base knockback and knockback growth. I experimenting with excel and putting all this into a format easier to read. Also, do you know all the formulas I would need (such as hitstun, knockback, etc...)?

 

[Sartron]

What is "WDSK"? Its right in between base knockback and knockback growth. I experimenting with excel and putting all this into a format easier to read. Also, do you know all the formulas I would need (such as hitstun, knockback, etc...)?

Weight Dependent Set Knockback. It creates a knockback value that is the same at all percentages according to the weight of the victim.

As for the formulas, yes, I do know/have them. I don't know if you're asking for them but just PM me or make another post asking for whatever.

EDIT: Also http://www.ssbwiki.com/Knockback#Melee.2FBrawl

 

[aznasazin11]

this is incredible thank you so much

 

[Yanoss1313]

Hopefully we'll have to radically update this page soon >.>

 

[CORY]

nah, not hopefully : p

and from my old sneak peak, it's not a lot of changes. those new animations are pretty slick looking, but i don't think they're going to change much frame data (for better or for worse). never got to play with those, though...

 

[Yanoss1313]

nah, not hopefully : p

and from my old sneak peak, it's not a lot of changes. those new animations are pretty slick looking, but i don't think they're going to change much frame data (for better or for worse). never got to play with those, though...

ah fair enough, I'm still holding out hope for a slightly faster jump squat, shave off 2 frames maybe?

 

[CORY]

that's a personal thing i'd like, too. really want the range for jump squats to just go from 3-5, as opposed to 3-5, then 4 characters get 6, and poor bowser has ganon's ftilt startup for his jump squat.

 

[Beorn]

Ok guys I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but this needs to be addressed next patch.

Ganons grab boxes are incredibly disjointed at the back. With characters like Wario and DK getting their grabs toned down to reasonable levels, ganon should not be getting a free pass. There is an entire extra hitbubble on ganon that should not be there.



Next is his aerial command grab. There is no reason for that knee box or the fact that he has multiple grab bubbles come out before he even starts the animation with his hand extended in a grabbing motion.



Please look at this in relation to 3.5 and the design decisions made to tone down things that degrade play and require less thought and precision to use effectively. I'm sure every one on this board can attest to times when ganon got grabs he had no business getting. Consider that this is an aerial grab. Just having an aerial grab is crazy.

PMDT, please consider removing the knee box on aerial side b and the third grab box on dash grab.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Ok guys I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but this needs to be addressed next patch.

Ganons grab boxes are incredibly disjointed at the back. With characters like Wario and DK getting their grabs toned down to reasonable levels, ganon should not be getting a free pass. There is an entire extra hitbubble on ganon that should not be there.

View attachment 30079

Next is his aerial command grab. There is no reason for that knee box or the fact that he has multiple grab bubbles come out before he even starts the animation with his hand extended in a grabbing motion.

View attachment 30080

Please look at this in relation to 3.5 and the design decisions made to tone down things that degrade play and require less thought and precision to use effectively. I'm sure every one on this board can attest to times when ganon got grabs he had no business getting. Consider that this is an aerial grab. Just having an aerial grab is crazy.

PMDT, please consider removing the knee box on aerial side b and the third grab box on dash grab.

I see what you're saying, and it's reasonable for the grab not to be behind Ganon like that (I think it should be in front of him instead lol).

But the Knee grab box is for against short characters like Ness, Pikachu, Olimar etc. without that Knee hitbox there aerials flame chokes after short hop would be waaaaaaaay to difficult to do on those characters. Also the grab box coming out early is because the move is pretty punishable if you miss with it so I can see why it there.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Grab boxes in general don't make sense. That's just the price you pay for having grabs actually function properly.

Ass grabs are silly though, agreed.

 

[teluoborg]

I'd say it's fine if people like Ganon have an ass grab, compared to when I see it happen on tether characters like Link or Ivy.

Not that it makes any sense.

 

[CORY]

i can see them removing the assgrab, just as a general universal overhaul on all the characters that have something like that, but who knows /shrug

as for the knee grab box on sideb: if it's needed to make the move actually function, they're unlikely to change it. as is, he already goes over a lot of characters when he tries to aerial side b, so i doubt they'd change it. and there's precedent for them keeping weird hitboxes to make moves work properly in basically every sword swinging attack that has a hitbox into the arm/chest of that character.

 

[Scuba Steve]

View attachment 30080

Does anyone know that those big red circles do? I saw them in debug mode, but I still have no idea what their purpose is

 

[Sartron]

Does anyone know that those big red circles do? I saw them in debug mode, but I still have no idea what their purpose is

Those are for attacking SSE enemies.

 

[CORY]

@ Sartron it says that fsmash hits on frame 6. that doesn't seem to actually match up with even the gif you posted of the attack ;x

 

[Sartron]

@ Sartron it says that fsmash hits on frame 6. that doesn't seem to actually match up with even the gif you posted of the attack ;x

Well, Fsmash hits frame 19 including the startup. Perhaps that's what's confusing you.
If you have a media player that can view gifs such as Quicktime, you can frame advance the GIF.

 

[CORY]

yeah, that's why i wasn't sure what it was trying to say. i was confused about how it could have started hitting before the period for charging even occurred ;x

none of the other smashes are set up that way, though, are they? like, usmash says it hits on frame 13, which seems to take the start up into account?

 

[Sartron]

yeah, that's why i wasn't sure what it was trying to say. i was confused about how it could have started hitting before the period for charging even occurred ;x

none of the other smashes are set up that way, though, are they? like, usmash says it hits on frame 13, which seems to take the start up into account?

I organize my frame threads by the game's system of organizing actions which is by subactions.
Up Smash is AttackHi4Start + AttackHi4. It hits frame 21 because 8 (startup) + 13 (first hitbox) is 21.

It can be quite confusing to read at first, I've considered creating heavily simplified posts, but with the release of debug mode and the fact I also post gifs, I think it can be understood.

 

[Bazkip]

@ Sartron the headings in the table for landing hitboxes of Wizard's Foot are off, looks like there's one missing after "Effect" and the following row headers are shifted over one to the left as a result. Also the hitbox data for cape says it's for down air.

 

[Sartron]

@ Sartron the headings in the table for landing hitboxes of Wizard's Foot are off, looks like there's one missing after "Effect" and the following row headers are shifted over one to the left as a result. Also the hitbox data for cape says it's for down air.

Thanks, sometimes mistakes past my proofreading because I copy and paste the tables across each other.

 

[Bazkip]

Thanks, sometimes mistakes past my proofreading because I copy and paste the tables across each other.

Apparently so, you seem to be missing a word in this sentence lol

 

[Bazkip]

Why don't the Dark Dive gifs show the grabboxes?

 

[Sartron]

Why don't the Dark Dive gifs show the grabboxes?

An error on my part. I've updated the GIF, thanks.

 

[Bazkip]

An error on my part. I've updated the GIF, thanks.

Awesome. Isn't the outer grabbox on it only active for one frame though? It appears that way in debug mode.

 

[Sartron]

Awesome. Isn't the outer grabbox on it only active for one frame though? It appears that way in debug mode.

Yes, you are right again. I swear I've done this before, I guess up special was just a big oversight when I did it.

 

[Bazkip]

Does PM fair have the same size or bigger hitbox than Melee fair? I'm trying to compare the gifs here to the ones from this thread but it's hard to tell, especially with the hitbox distortion in those gifs.

 

[Sartron]

Does PM fair have the same size or bigger hitbox than Melee fair? I'm trying to compare the gifs here to the ones from this thread but it's hard to tell, especially with the hitbox distortion in those gifs.

The hitbox sizes are smaller than Melee's.

From left to right if Ganondorf is looking right.

Project M|Melee
2.5|3.13
3.4|3.91
5|5.08

 

[CORY]

I remember the character modes were adjusted coming into pm. Would that have affected this, or were the changes proportional to model size changes?

And, I guess as an addendum: do melee and brawl/pm use the same units for things like hitboxes?

 

[Sartron]

I remember the character modes were adjusted coming into pm. Would that have affected this, or were the changes proportional to model size changes?

No idea, sorry. I would assume from gameplay experience that your second statement regarding the proportions is true because Ganon's fair feels large contrary to the size on paper, perhaps even bigger than Melee? Perhaps placebo?

And, I guess as an addendum: do melee and brawl/pm use the same units for things like hitboxes?

Melee uses different units for size in hitboxes. By using a program such as "Master Hand" or "Crazy Hand" you can see this drastic difference but Melee sizes can be converted over into the Brawl size units.

 

[bubbaking]

I need a little help decoding some of this. I'll use bair as an example. Bair's all one hitbox that hits latest on frame 15 and has 9 frames of shieldstun. AC window starts on frame 19, and the move has 5 frames of AC lag. 15+9-19-5=0. How is AC bair +1 on block? There must be something I'm missing because I'm seeing this 'additional frame' of shield advantage on every move.

 

[Sartron]

I need a little help decoding some of this. I'll use bair as an example. Bair's all one hitbox that hits latest on frame 15 and has 9 frames of shieldstun. AC window starts on frame 19, and the move has 5 frames of AC lag. 15+9-19-5=0. How is AC bair +1 on block? There must be something I'm missing because I'm seeing this 'additional frame' of shield advantage on every move.

You have the formula right, you're just using one wrong number.
It would actually be 15 + 9 - 18 - 5 = +1.
Ganondorf is landing on frame 19 since that is the first frame of auto-cancel, and that is when the -5 landing lag gets added.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Does Project M still have the property where your short hop is a different height if you begin an aerial attack on frame one? I've heard this referred to as "Mew2King jumps" in Melee. Interested in this for the purposes of looking at ACs in debug.

 

[Scuba Steve]

No, the gravity quirk from Melee isn't in PM

 

[Zigludo]

what's the deal with the angle on dthrow? it's listed as 80 degrees but that would imply that the victim would be sent in front of Ganon whereas in reality it sends behind.

also I was under the impression that it was a throw with an angle between 180 and 360 (ie a downwards trajectory), due to the impact GFX on the ground and the fact that opponents seem to be in hitstun disproportionately long compared to how far the knockback sends them, which is a result of downwards angled hitboxes affecting grounded targets.

care to shed some light on the subject, Sartron ?