Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes

[:034:]

Hey adum... Just tried some out and it's not really good news.

Basically, what makes Diddy so good in glide tossing is that he has low traction and quick animations. For Ganondorf, this doesn't count. His attacks come out slow, and most of the Glide Toss part is him doing the throwing animation, which isn't any good. Diddy's attacks come out much faster and flow into each other much easier, where Ganon's fastest ground move, jab, doesn't really lead into anything.

Somebody else will need to further test since I'll be gone until Thursday, though.

@Jekyll: Do you mean doing an attack and landing on a platform or something else?

 

[Gleam]

Seems like there's a lot of discussion going on in regards of the Diddy Kong Match up. If Adumbrodeus or someone could provide an overall statement or something of pros and cons of the match and all that we can do to try to win, I can edit that in.

As for the Falcon match up, is anthing still going on with that?

 

[Jekyll]

@Jekyll: Do you mean doing an attack and landing on a platform or something else?

I mean landing on the edge of a platform while doing an aerial and "sliding" off of the platform without suffering any of the lag of the aerial. It was in Melee, and it was a lot easier to do. I'm not sure how I pulled it off, but I did it twice at Rofa's Circuit Event a few weeks ago and I've been struggling to do it again ever since.

 

[Swoops]

...that is now what I'm going to be practicing for the next few days. I really want some platform canceled F-Airs. I've only platform canceled inadvertently with a couple other characters like mario, but it would be pretty nice if I could get the timing down in brawl.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Seems like there's a lot of discussion going on in regards of the Diddy Kong Match up. If Adumbrodeus or someone could provide an overall statement or something of pros and cons of the match and all that we can do to try to win, I can edit that in.

As for the Falcon match up, is anthing still going on with that?

I think its pretty safe to say general consensus is Ganny has an significant advantage over Falcon, it should actually be safe to start up the next discussion.

 

[Gleam]

I think that Ganon has an advantage over Falcon as well. However adumbrodeus wanted me to wait for more discussion to come out on the Falcon match up before I put anything in.

Anyways, anything new come up on the Diddy match up? I've only skimmed through the topic righ now.

 

[Gleam]

Bump.

I put the Falcon one back on since it seems like its been pretty much finished. I'll wait for a response for the Diddy and Marth match up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Should've been checking this thread...

Hey adum... Just tried some out and it's not really good news.

Basically, what makes Diddy so good in glide tossing is that he has low traction and quick animations. For Ganondorf, this doesn't count. His attacks come out slow, and most of the Glide Toss part is him doing the throwing animation, which isn't any good. Diddy's attacks come out much faster and flow into each other much easier, where Ganon's fastest ground move, jab, doesn't really lead into anything.

Somebody else will need to further test since I'll be gone until Thursday, though.

Fun... ok, could you get me an estimate of how useful it is overall?

Anything else it could lead to, ^b, over b, dtilt maybe?

Well, at least it can set up for some tech chasing, but that's disappointing.


Ok, so then I've pretty much figured out what it is, his advantages still stand, but it's not useful enough to really change the match-up much unless something else comes up.

I think that Ganon has an advantage over Falcon as well. However adumbrodeus wanted me to wait for more discussion to come out on the Falcon match up before I put anything in.

Anyways, anything new come up on the Diddy match up? I've only skimmed through the topic righ now.

I'd like a few more questions answered before an overall statement, for some reason I missed the updates for this thread, so I just put up my response to FD's findings.

Really doesn't look good, you can expect something in the hard-counter range for Diddy. Marth will stay up till sunday, and then we'll make a decision on how badly Marth hard-counters Ganondorf, a couple of workable strategies, and go for the next guy... who hasn't been decided yet *nudge nudge*

 

[Gleam]

I'm always updating the topic whenever possible, so I'm going to keep the Falcon Match as it is. Once you bring me new Falcon material to add/change I will update the match up ASAP. This goes the same for all the match ups. Bring me new info, and I will be glad to add or change it into the match up section.

As for the new character...I say...Link. Our sworn enemy and holder of the Triforce of Courage.

 

[Devil7]

I vote Wario is next, that would be pretty interesting thread.

 

[Gleam]

screw my idea, Devil7 is right. Wario would be intersting.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm always updating the topic whenever possible, so I'm going to keep the Falcon Match as it is. Once you bring me new Falcon material to add/change I will update the match up ASAP. This goes the same for all the match ups. Bring me new info, and I will be glad to add or change it into the match up section.

As for the new character...I say...Link. Our sworn enemy and holder of the Triforce of Courage.

I think you misunderstood, Falcon is cool unless we have a reason to revisit the discussion, keep it there please.


I meant Diddy, I'd like a bit more testing before I'm positive of whether he's a hard counter or a soft counter at this point. After I get that, I'll ask for any final thoughts on the thread and we'll take that into account, and close the book on that discussion for now.


Post your thoughts about who next in the match-up discussion thread please, there's at least one other suggestion there and I think it's a bit off-topic here.

 

[Gleam]

Ah, my bad. I thought you were talking about the Falcon match up. Hope the Diddy one gets updated and finished soon.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ah, my bad. I thought you were talking about the Falcon match up. Hope the Diddy one gets updated and finished soon.

No problem, it's all well.

It's also my hope the match-up threads are considered "immune from the necro rule" so we can revisit them as things change, which WILL happen because of how young the metagame is.

screw my idea, Devil7 is right. Wario would be intersting.

I vote Wario is next, that would be pretty interesting thread.

Didn't catch this before, could this please be discussed in the main match-up thread?

I'd like to keep character discussion centralized so people know the discussion is going on and what the points are as far as different characters.

I like Wario though, especially since he's pretty high up there, he also goes well with doing it "tier-wise" as was suggested.

 

[Astrokirby]

Its a pretty nice thread, taught me a few things. =P

 

[Gleam]

Another bumb as usual. I've added a few *need to know basic* items on the list and a new thing called Freeze Sprinting. Which I think looks kind of awesom with Ganon, but I think won't be too useful. Then again I could be wrong.

 

[Gleam]

Another bump as usual. I should demand a sticky now probably.

 

[Devil7]

Another bump as usual. I should demand a sticky now probably.

I agree, by the way don't add this yet but I was playing a match and my have found another use for
d-smash. I'm still testing this and it is very hard so it may not even be that useful. Anyway I edge guarding another player and I used d-smash and it sent him away from the stage at a downward angle very fast, like the tip man spike. I've been able to replicate it a few times but it is very hard to do.

So far as I can tell while he is kicking forward to first time there maybe a few frames in there that send the opponent down and away. It obviously isn't all of them since most of them sends them behind you, and sets up for the second kick. Just thought I would mention it, maybe it will pan out maybe it won't.

 

[hyperstation]

Deity apologzies if this is old...but in all the time he's lurked and skimmed, he hasn't seen a mention of this.

We all know that if you Wizkick Ganon toward the ledge at just the right distance, it cancels and lets him do an aerial. Quite some time ago, Deity accidentally did something similar, but he did it in the middle of the stage. It isn't random and works on most stages as far as he knows, but it's rather situational. Any place with a level ledge will do.

Just roll backward against the edge of the stage then hit DownB. Ganondorf Wizkicks toward the center of the stage, but doesn't have his normal ending lag - he rolls to a stop as though you Wizkicked off the ledge. This puts him into the air for just an instant instead of on the floor. The only use Deity has been able to give to this is to pivot-Murder Choke a spotdodger, or just use a normal Choke on someone who rolled away. It doesn't seem very well known, and it comes out very quickly so it usually hits. Hitting DownB again does an automatic Murder Quake, but it's application would be extremely situational, even against a pants-on-head ******** opponent.

Deity doesn't know if any of Ganon's aerials come out fast enough for a hitbox to come up before he hits the ground (MAYBE Bair), but maybe someone can make something of this~

Two things. First, you've discovered something great here. I don't think this should be dismissed as quickly as you're brushing it aside. I have to say though, it's really hard for me to take you seriously talking in the third person. You're saying something relatively intelligent, yet you're demeaning yourself by speaking like that. Don't do that to yourself...have some respect.

Anyway, this move has big potential and I'm making it my mission to unpack everything it's got. I suggest we all do the same, because this could add a big buff to Ganon's spacing game and mindgame...uh...game. I just did about half an hour of testing on it. First of all, there is no move that can come out before the roll stops and ganon touches down. That doesn't matter though, because it's very easy to jump out of the rolling animation (in fact, I think you can buffer the jump right after Ganon transitions from slide to roll). Out of the jump, you can do any aerial you'd be able to safely pull off with a single short hop or full hop...so pretty much anything but a lagless fair.

Second, all the moves can be buffered and reverse buffered just as one would expect out of a regular jump. Nair might be an exception to this rule as the Swoops' "double nair to (reverse) buffer" requires the second nair to get a lagless landing. However, it's possible that we can get a second jump after the first aerial, but I was not able to do it in my minimal testing. Though, I somehow doubt it's possible due to these follow-ups remaining consistent with all the properties of the roll-out animation of a lag canceled wizard's foot over the edge. You can still do all of your favorites, however: thunderstorming, using dair/jab/ftilt/utilt/fsmash as a buffered follow up.

Third: most all of my testing was done on a jump straight up out of the roll animation. However, if one holds forward or back and then jumps with the same timing, you jump out of the roll out at a 45 degree angle (give or take). THIS. IS. AWESOME. Think of the implications. Here's two scenarios I just thought of, but I think this is just the beginning:

• Say your opponent side steps or shields and you slide past him...tilt the stick back, jump out, then take your pick depending on where the opponent is: Bair, Dair, Uair, down B, aerial murder choke...and (i'm assuming now) you can (reverse) buffer all of it. So sweet.
• Perhaps your opponent is on the other side of the stage. Wiz kick -> jump out of the roll while holding forward -> down B, dair, fair, nair, uair, aerial choke slame...you get the idea. He's a nasty boy.

Now crack the whip you lordly brutes...let's figure out what this thing can do. Can we get a second jump? platform canceling after the jump? Which levels does it work on? Do any levels give a special property to the jump (like for instance the dip in the middle of yoshi's island or halberd)? Let's bring some fresh legs to this tech. We're getting to a point where I'm really feeling like Ganon is going to start coming into his own competitively. In order to accelerate the growth of his metagame, we need more eyes and thumbs on every little tidbit of intel that comes out of this community.

 

[Gleam]

Good Job Hyperstation. I just added what you said to the whole compact list. Wow, it's grown quite a bit...

 

[hyperstation]

A little more specific information on the mid stage wizard kick cancel (anyone got a better name?):

First, as I suspected, double jumps are a no no. too bad.

Now, a stage list. I only tested stages that are in some way part of tournament play.

Stages on which all ledges cancel the wizard kick

1. Final Destination
2. Battle Field
3. Frigate Orpheon
4. Smashville

Stages on which some ledges cancel the wizard kick

1. Luigi's Mansion - Level 1 and Level 2 always work. Level 3 is picky (***)
2. Pirate Ship - Right side of the ship ONLY
3. Pokemon Stadium 2 - ONLY the stadium works. No elemental stages.
4. Castle Siege - Right side of first stage of Castle Siege ONLY
5. Corneria - Off the top of the wing ONLY
6. Delfino - Left side of the platform with umbrellas on it during the part of Delfino that has the river/canal going through it ONLY. Main floating stage is picky (***)

Stages on which no ledges cancel the wizard kick

1. Halberd
2. Yoshi's Island
3. Lylat Cruise
4. Pictochat

Two competition stages aren't listed. Norfair is missing because no platform on that level is wide enough for this move to even be possible. Pokemon Stadium 1 is missing cause my data died a month or so ago and I haven't unlocked it. PS1 is broken anyway...glitchy ledges. If someone wants to get the data for PS1, that would be great, otherwise, who cares.

(***) - stages marked with this means that there is some witchery going on with the ledge that makes it inconsistent from test to test. Both the main platform on Delfino and the third floor of Luigi's Mansion are possessed. I have a few theories as to why it works sometimes and other times doesn't, but nothing of merit so far. I should mention that one time on Delfino I SDed because I did the wizard kick cancel as the platform was rising...I fell through the floor and died. Until something more concrete is discovered to understand why the cancel works sometimes and why it doesn't others, I suggest not screwing with it on Delfino...

 

[x_Deity_x]

Deity's been talking like this on the internet for four years. xD ...he's too fargone. Just let it go~

That said, he's glad someone was able to make something of his discovery. Not sure what to call it just yet. =/ We already have a Wizkick Cancel. No doubt someone will think of something snappy that we can reduce to a three-letter abbreviation of some sort.

You did a great job testing the move. Deity didn't even think to jump out of it. o_o; He's toying around with it now in practice, and he can see how that would be useful. This technique isn't really known (as far as Deity knows it hasn't left these boards), so it could very well work as a feint, as this cancelled Wizkick has less lag than a normal grounded Wizkick - people could look to capitalize on it, then get Uaired, Faired or Daired in the noggin.

Deity should also point out that this works the same on level platforms that're close enough to be bridged by the DownB. Namely, Battlefield. Ganon can Wizkick from one platform to the other and still jump out of the roll and use an aerial follow-up. An immediate use Deity finds with this is that you can slide underneath the top platform - where your opponent is - then jump backwards out of the Wizkick with a Uair or a Bair without landing.

He's going to test a few other stages to see what fall-through platforms could make this move useful, not to mention test the ledges of PS1~

 

[x_Deity_x]

Norfair
This cancel works on the middle two platforms of Norfair, as long as you space yourself properly and the roll occurs over the opposite platform.


Delfino
The section where the middle area is ground covered by water with a canoe in the background - to the left is solid ground with a platform over it, and further left is deep water. Just past that is more solid ground. You can Wizkick Cancel from that ground to the area separating to the two water regions.

The area where there are three pillars of rock with grass on top of them, all surrounded by water - you can Wizkick Cancel between any two adjacent platforms. o_o; Didn't expect that, since one is raised higher.

When fighting atop the building that faces the giant Shine Sprite, you can DownB off of the center rise and Cancel into an aerial...it's a little higher than the norm, but it could prove useful.

When travelling between battle areas, one of the platform configurations is somewhat like that of Battlefield, except that the two outer platforms are tilted inward - you can Wizkick between these two platforms and get the cancel effect.

There are a lot of different areas, so if someone sees something Deity missed, do point it out~


Frigate Orpheon
You can Wizkick Cancel from the rising/lowering platform to the right over to the stationary platform on the left, but you can't do it from the stationary platform over to the moving one. =/ At least, Deity couldn't...Ganon fell through it each time, and only landed on the platform because he used his jump.


Pokemon Stadium 1
The cancel works twixt the two normal platforms, and on both ledges~

It works on the right ledge with the Rocky formation setting...not the left, obviously.

Same goes for the Water setting - right ledge only.

The cancel doesn't work on the ledges of the Plant setting, but you can do the traditional Edge Wizkick Cancel between the lower middle platform and the tree branch. =O Ganon's animation ends and instantly lets him do an aerial as he lands. Not much room, though...


Pokemon Stadium 2
The cancel works twixt the two normal platforms.

On the Earth/Rock/whatever stage, you can Wizkick between the left passable platform and the lower of the two on the right, and you can do the same back the other way. Furthermore, Wizkicking up the left side of that mound of dirt automatically cancels the Wizkick on the lower of the two right platforms.

When using DownB on the right platform, Ganon will follow the contour of the dirt mound instead of passing over it unless you use the move on the slanted edge of the platform, so the spacing is a little strict.


That's all Deity checked for now...not sure how useful it'll be, but there it is.

 

[Gleam]

A quick little update. Firstly, the compact list has grown by a good amount thanks to the tediously hard work of the Ganon board. I've decided to put any new tech or skill be it new or old at the top instead of trying to put it in alphabetical order.

Quotes on Skills will still be on the bottom however.

So, if anyone wants to see whats new on there, just look at the upper section.

 

[Gleam]

A bump as usual. I may just bump this daily for everyone to see. Even though I desearves to be stickied >_>

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Its probably a good idea if someone gets a video up of the Wizkick Cancel for the sake of it. (And I actually think Wizkick Cancel is fine as a name) Either way this is probably the most important discovery for Ganondorf since the Thunderstorm discovery.

 

[hyperstation]

Its probably a good idea if someone gets a video up of the Wizkick Cancel for the sake of it. (And I actually think Wizkick Cancel is fine as a name) Either way this is probably the most important discovery for Ganondorf since the Thunderstorm discovery.

Which wiz kick cancel are you talking about? The one beyond the ledge or the one over the stage? I can make a video today of all the cancels if I can send the replay to someone to upload them. A2ZOMG, don't you have that capability? I have neither the faculty nor the commitment to edit the video down for digestibility, but I suppose I could just comment on the moves being performed in the youtube notes next to their time codes...

 

[Gleam]

I do need videos, for everything really. I don't have the "Technology...>_>)* to upload videos on my PC which is why I'm hoping someone else can make the videos put them here, PM me, and then I can set them up.

 

[hyperstation]

I made a quick video outlining the wiz kick cancels. I PMed A2ZOMG to see if he can capture it and upload it for me.

 

[Gleam]

That's good hypestation. Hope you can get it soon for me to post it in the "List."

 

[Gleam]

the usual daily bump as always for the compact list, yep.

 

[echos]

*pound* ganon for life

edit: favorite uses for down b canceling is if im going off stage i'll use nair out of the down b cancel not only making you look like the ****ing man but its great for gimping, it pelts them away from the edge for you to savely grab it and gimp them. For the other method where you down b cancel toward the center of the stage i usally if the wizard foot connects i'll do another down b resulting in a murder quake popping them up into the air and from there i try to connect with a stutter step f-smash (at lower percentages) .

and thanks gleam for picking up were sliq left off the ganon community appreciates it

 

[Gleam]

Remember echos, it's not just me. Gotta thank the entire Ganon community for filling up the list here, not just me.

 

[hyperstation]

The ganon boards were rebuilt bigger, faster, and stronger than ever. Zombanon was prophesied and the Zombanapocalypse commeth.

(was surprised to find "prophesied" was the correct word and not "prophesized," which doesn't exist)

 

[echos]

Remember echos, it's not just me. Gotta thank the entire Ganon community for filling up the list here, not just me.

thanks to everyone else as well

ganon has alot of techs to keep track of but every single one helps him out greatly im able to hold my own against some of the best in the maryland and virgina area I use everything in the book.

Something good to know about ganon's b-air is that it shuts down kirbys back air game every time. Kirby obviously can DI alot better then Ganon so he can get in and out quicker but if you time your bairs for when kirby is going to do his Ganon will win that clash every time. I think it's worth mentioning because a good part of kirbys game is spacing short hop b-airs I havn't really tried with many other characters i know it just works well against kirby because the range of his back air is very short just like the G mans

 

[Gleam]

thanks to everyone else as well

ganon has alot of techs to keep track of but every single one helps him out greatly im able to hold my own against some of the best in the maryland and virgina area I use everything in the book.

Something good to know about ganon's b-air is that it shuts down kirbys back air game every time. Kirby obviously can DI alot better then Ganon so he can get in and out quicker but if you time your bairs for when kirby is going to do his Ganon will win that clash every time. I think it's worth mentioning because a good part of kirbys game is spacing short hop b-airs I havn't really tried with many other characters i know it just works well against kirby because the range of his back air is very short just like the G mans

You should talk about the Kirby Bair thing whenever he comes up on Adumbrodeus' character discussion, since I put the match up summaries here.

 

[echos]

i'll do that

 

[Gleam]

As always I bump the topic for people to see and contribute more stuff.

 

[Gleam]

Another daily bump for the list, put in the Marth Matchup.

 

[echos]

Another daily bump for the list, put in the Marth Matchup.

i can't find what you updated gleam

o and here is a video of something i posted for ganon's warlock punch 1v1 its pretty useless but for teams it can catch people by surprise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neleuxVx40o