Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes

[Gleam]

Ah, good Devil7. I'll be waiting for that video...keep bringing in these combos and what not. Already have about 30 already and the more we can get in...the more chances Ganon has at getting better.

And, if you could, if you can provide a video for the Dedede grab, might be good if you could just provide a few videos for the rest of the techs, combos and whatnot I have on the list.

 

[Gleam]

Bump

There's about 28 different Techs, skills and other things on here now. Let's see if we can't get any more on here. 50 perhaps?

 

[Gleam]

Another ol bump for the topic.

Check out of some of the new Release Grab Combos we have on a few characters.

 

[Swoops]

Just a few things Gleam...

You don't kill a person when dropping them in the water with Gerudo. In fact, you take them down with you and the animation is canceled, dropping them in the water first, so they get out sooner. It's pretty risky to try, and someone with a spike can potentially get a free kill on you.

This is just a language issue but...a semi-infinite would be...a finite lol. It's either infinite or finite, sorry that just bothers me .

I would put a note to be careful about D-Air>U-Smash...well you don't need to, but it's only guaranteed for about a 20% window. I really don't want to go into the percents and test all of them but it's like 4-30% with the starting and ending %'s changing with each character. Actually...just don't try it at 0%, that's all I have to say.

Cool looking stuff though with the grab release>wizard's foot, I'm liking it. Keep it up Gleam.

 

[Calixto]

Not really a true combo or technique, but I thought it'd be worth mentioning.


If you Thunderstorm a character and you end up bouncing them a little too high for a second follow up thunderstomp, you can simply do another thunderstomp (holding down control stick, sliding from jump to a button) but if you double tap the jump and then initiate the Dair, you will do a thunderstomp that rises much higher. If done quick enough you should bypass the awkward 'mid air' jump animation so it looks like just a really high stomp, and if the training mode help is registering it right, it is two 'consecutive' (un-interruptible?) hits.

 

[Gleam]

Thanks for the input Swoops, I copy pasted what you said about the Ganociding.

Calixto-That's basically what thunderstorming is, but I see I never really adressed the point.
---

On a somewhat different note...over 30 techs and skill. Getting close to that 50 that I'm hoping for.

 

[domiNate]

Wow, ganon seems so technical now, haha. So much for being just a simple hit and tech chase character. I can't wait to bust some of these things out.

 

[Gleam]

Technical Ganon. Yep, its time to wreck some faces and win some tournaments. (or at least place)
---

Anyways another bump. I've added some more things. Right now there are 40 Techs and Skills on here. 10 more until that 50.

I'm also thinking of...when they get done, I'll put the match ups up on here. What do you all think of that?

 

[domiNate]

I think having a thread with match ups is a good idea, but maybe it would be better to just have a link to another thread. I really like how the lucas board has there match up thread where they all discuss it in a common thread. Just a thought, your thread your rules.

Oh yeah, and links still don't work for me. Two http's, or just me?

 

[Devil7]

Anyway it appears that the DDD combo only works twice after that DDD can DI out, so your looking at 14% plus damage from whatever attack you follow it with. I finally found a really good DDD player and did some serious testing.

 

[Gleam]

DomiNate: I've merely put the links in, and they work just fine for me. Not sure what's going on so not much I can do for you. Sorry.

Devil7: Well I just made the change. Thanks for the update as always. Still waiting for some videos if you can still provide them.

EDIT: Added about 5 different things, most of them just relating to actual game play and physics that everyone should know.

I'm planning on putting the Diddy response match up here whenever it gets finished also.

 

[Gleam]

Another bump as always for the topic. Ganon is a beast...

 

[domiNate]

Either the last three links in your post have two http's or I need to see if lead is getting into my water system...

 

[x_Deity_x]

Deity apologzies if this is old...but in all the time he's lurked and skimmed, he hasn't seen a mention of this.

We all know that if you Wizkick Ganon toward the ledge at just the right distance, it cancels and lets him do an aerial. Quite some time ago, Deity accidentally did something similar, but he did it in the middle of the stage. It isn't random and works on most stages as far as he knows, but it's rather situational. Any place with a level ledge will do.

Just roll backward against the edge of the stage then hit DownB. Ganondorf Wizkicks toward the center of the stage, but doesn't have his normal ending lag - he rolls to a stop as though you Wizkicked off the ledge. This puts him into the air for just an instant instead of on the floor. The only use Deity has been able to give to this is to pivot-Murder Choke a spotdodger, or just use a normal Choke on someone who rolled away. It doesn't seem very well known, and it comes out very quickly so it usually hits. Hitting DownB again does an automatic Murder Quake, but it's application would be extremely situational, even against a pants-on-head ******** opponent.

Deity doesn't know if any of Ganon's aerials come out fast enough for a hitbox to come up before he hits the ground (MAYBE Bair), but maybe someone can make something of this~

 

[:034:]

^ Nair comes out the fastest, so that's probably the only one that would work.. But, then what? You end up with MORE lag?

But meh, a discovery is a discovery.

 

[x_Deity_x]

Deity's never really tried using an aerial...the only move he felt comfortable using as a follow-up was the SideB.

Everything else looked a lot like a "Kick me" sign on Ganon's back.

 

[Gleam]

I put in what you said Deity, but I put it as an unknown new tech. I'll let others try it out and just tell me in the end how useful it is or not.

As for the whole Links, I see the problem and I'll fix it up momentarily.

 

[Devil7]

I'm pretty sure this was discovered by sliq but I can't remember I've slept since then. This move is really good for getting to the edge really fast and edge guard some like tipman spiking or n-air like FD said. If your feeling gutsy you can try fair but it usually ends in your death rather than a kill.

 

[x_Deity_x]

Deity tested yesterday, and Ganon is hardly in the air at all after the aforementioned move, so none of his aerials have time to come out. SideB and DownB activate, but Deity hasn't tried UpB yet. Not sure how useful that would be, though. =/

Using SideB after a less laggy Wizkick still seems useful, though, if not situational due to the limited area that it can be done in.

One could try doing this at the edges of platforms such as on Battlefield? It could work there as well~

 

[Devil7]

Yes but if space right there is no laggy animation after you fall off the edge and perform whatever move you want. On FD there are two yellow triangles that point torwards both edges near the center. If your front foot is near the edge of the point then you will get no lag after falling off. And since it doesn't use a jump you can actually perform two aerials and still recover. Anyway you'll have to get the position right before it will work, and I'm pretty sure there is a vid of it somewhere.

 

[x_Deity_x]

Deity's talking about the technique he described above, not the off-ledge Wizkick cancel.

The Wizkick is aimed into the stage, not off of it~

 

[Devil7]

My bad I miss read your post. Thats what I thought you were talking about.

 

[Gleam]

well I got the links fixed up now so they should work.

 

[Swoops]

By the way gleam, hate to bring bad news, but it should be taken into account that D-Air>U-Smash is pretty much never a combo.

 

[Gleam]

I'll probably change Dair->Usmash into just a potential combo, but unless something just came up, it's still pretty good. It does 42% damage at the least, so starting at 0%. Usmash has its deceptive IASA frames.

 

[Gleam]

I've finally got the matchup part in. Big thanks and credit to adumbrodeus.

 

[Xyro77]

I really enjoyed reading this thread but you have to realize ganon will forever be horrible.

 

[:034:]

Says the Samus main...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gleam, I'd prefer we finished the weakly discussion before putting the match-up on this page, it is only my personal analysis after all, and if I got something wrong, I'd like people to get the chance to point it out.



But very useful thread in general, thanks for taking the time to advance the Ganondorf metagame.

I really enjoyed reading this thread but you have to realize ganon will forever be horrible.

Probably, but we're trying to make him less so.

 

[Gleam]

adumbrodeus, by your request I took off the Captain Falcon part until further discussion can be made.

I downright refuse to believe Ganon is horrible. I believe he's below average, I'll go as far as to say he's bad, but I will never say Ganon is horrible. Plus I downright refuse to think of Ganon as third worst on the tier list when Bowser is like what? The 15th best or something.

But yes, I'm hoping the more techs people learn, the better he'll get.

 

[Swoops]

Gleam, we may not have Falcon but we have a heavy Diddy thread to take a summary from.

And Ganon is mid-tier...that's right I said it...high mid-tier! Maybe even gerudo tier.

 

[:034:]

Ganondorf is in the Ganondorf Tier.

Which, in mortal men's terms, should be somewhere above this ridiculous 'God Tier'.

 

[Devil7]

God Tier for Ganondorf Tier

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gleam, we may not have Falcon but we have a heavy Diddy thread to take a summary from.

That one we're still waiting on Dutchman to test the bananas on high-leveled play in, that's why it's still listed as "no consensus".

Falcon thread is probably closer to done because we really don't have any unresolved questions that would change the match-up.

 

[hyperstation]

Still reading through the OP (nice summation...very useful thread), but so far there are two things I wanted to add.

First - and this is a tech i've been messing with that still is in it's infancy - I play against a lot of diddy kong. Like real nasty banana glide tossing mother******s. I've gotten a spike out of a ledge dash attack before. While diddy was getting up onto the ledge (with either A or jump...can't say for sure which), he had a frame or two where when you connect with the dash, it actually spiked down and didn't launch up. One of my favorite kills. If I have a replay, I'll get it uploaded, but I don't think it was within 3 minutes, and it's on my friend's system. I mention this because I think that this could be worth investigating more and against other characters to potentially expand the usefulness of the marginally useful ledge dash attack.

Second, in regards to the projectile control section, I have another technique I've been working on against diddy. On wide levels like FD, a good diddy can punish ganon's height and lack of projectiles with a constant assault of dual banana tossing. I found a good way to complicate the projectile control game. It's easy to get control of one or both of the nanas with a dash attack, but obviously, you're not as capable with them as an experienced diddy is. you're not gonna just start glide toss comboing with them. So what I found is that rather than just grabbing them and trying to control the nana game, I've found it's good to grab onto one and NOT toss it. This prevents diddy from getting a double nana **** session going. You're limited to just your B attacks, but that means you can murder choke to banana toss. It really starts to f*** with the diddy player because he's then limited to just one banana and prevents the match from degrading to a banana king-of-the-hill f***fest. great mind game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW_JDj8us-w Ganondorf hell fire combo vid. I don't remember whose this is, but at :43, there's a ganon/diddy combo they call "going bananas" it involves murder choking while diddy tosses nanas to trip him up again. I'd like to try to truncate that to a one person technique VS a diddy rather than WITH a diddy. now wouldn't that be nice.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Second, in regards to the projectile control section, I have another technique I've been working on against diddy. On wide levels like FD, a good diddy can punish ganon's height and lack of projectiles with a constant assault of dual banana tossing. I found a good way to complicate the projectile control game. It's easy to get control of one or both of the nanas with a dash attack, but obviously, you're not as capable with them as an experienced diddy is. you're not gonna just start glide toss comboing with them. So what I found is that rather than just grabbing them and trying to control the nana game, I've found it's good to grab onto one and NOT toss it. This prevents diddy from getting a double nana **** session going. You're limited to just your B attacks, but that means you can murder choke to banana toss. It really starts to f*** with the diddy player because he's then limited to just one banana and prevents the match from degrading to a banana king-of-the-hill f***fest. great mind game.

Really, the issue is not whether or not you'll be as expirienced with Bananas as Diddy is, it's whether Ganondorf is inherently better with them.

If Ganondorf is inherently better with them, what can I say, practice. It's worth it to not make this a **** match-up for Ganondorf mains.

 

[hyperstation]

Really, the issue is not whether or not you'll be as expirienced with Bananas as Diddy is, it's whether Ganondorf is inherently better with them.

If Ganondorf is inherently better with them, what can I say, practice. It's worth it to not make this a **** match-up for Ganondorf mains.

In my experience, ganondorf is absolutely NOT inherently better with nanas. his glide toss isn't as good, diddy's nana throw/dash attack combo covers a lot of ground and has good priority over many of ganon's moves, and it functions to pick up bananas. That's why controlling one banana by just holding it is a potent counter maneuver. it gimps diddy's biggest advantage over ganon.

 

[Devil7]

Personally I'm all for just punching Diddy's nanerz: Fthrow

 

[adumbrodeus]

In my experience, ganondorf is absolutely NOT inherently better with nanas. his glide toss isn't as good, diddy's nana throw/dash attack combo covers a lot of ground and has good priority over many of ganon's moves, and it functions to pick up bananas. That's why controlling one banana by just holding it is a potent counter maneuver. it gimps diddy's biggest advantage over ganon.

But the thing is, as we all know, Ganon's attacks hurt... A LOT.

With well used Banana's you can force through a number of Ganon's attacks in a far more offensive manner then is normally possible.

As for maneuvering with them in play, Ganon's dash attack picks them up as well, and has really good priority, and the Dair picks them off the ground, his vB totally ignors them, and because of his insane knockback and good low-percentage combos that lead to insane knockback, Ganon has options for taking control of Bananas.

In my expirience, when playing against Diddy as Ganondorf, Bananas are always crucial parts of my game, assuming he uses them (which every worthwhile Diddy does). That offensive advantage of being able to force through Ganon attacks in my expirience far outstrips the advantage of denying a single Banana throughout the majority of the match, because a single Banana is still a massive threat.

As I said earlier on the thread, Dutchman is probably the best guy to analyze how well Ganon does with the Bananas realistically, so wait for his input on this.

 

[Jekyll]

Ambrodeus...You know that over the course of a "**** ton" of years the Earth's magnetic poles switch, right? Magnetic North WILL be moved.

Has anyone else here platform cancelled attacks? I've only done it twice, once with Fair and once with DOwn+B, but I have no idea what caused it. Both times were on battlefield, but I've been driving myself crazy trying to replicate it...