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Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

Caiahar

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Can people jump with DL to approach differently? I'm not talking about when you impale th opponent, I'm talking about if you pin to the ground normally, since I think people are adapting to it and begin to punish the kicks we do. So if we jump, we can use it to somehow approach or ...something
 

StarForce

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Can people jump with DL to approach differently? I'm not talking about when you impale th opponent, I'm talking about if you pin to the ground normally, since I think people are adapting to it and begin to punish the kicks we do. So if we jump, we can use it to somehow approach or ...something
You mean trick the opponent as the pin+kick is getting old already right? Adaptation. worst enemy. Yes you can jump, after the jump you follow with what's best. I really think the kick is expected at this point so we ought to change tactics and mix once in awhile. What you can to avoid damage is kick back to safety if you think you have been read ahead. Hope this helps. But consider a more professional advice.
 

Travitoninja99

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You mean trick the opponent as the pin+kick is getting old already right? Adaptation. worst enemy. Yes you can jump, after the jump you follow with what's best. I really think the kick is expected at this point so we ought to change tactics and mix once in awhile. What you can to avoid damage is kick back to safety if you think you have been read ahead. Hope this helps. But consider a more professional advice.
If I miss the pin with DL, then I usually either kick backwards or jump, depending on what's best. Kicking forward is very risky if your opponent is aware, and almost guaranteed to damage you if they're aware of it, as all they need to do is shield and punish.
 

OceloT42

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Apparently dair can follow up with DL if timed right.
Anyone submitting clips for Alpharad's replay hut 5?
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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I may have discovered something. I was playing against an Olimar and when the Pikmin stuck on me I charged my fsmash and it came off pretty quickly. Could that be an advantage over him in the matchup?
 

Caiahar

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You mean trick the opponent as the pin+kick is getting old already right? Adaptation. worst enemy. Yes you can jump, after the jump you follow with what's best. I really think the kick is expected at this point so we ought to change tactics and mix once in awhile. What you can to avoid damage is kick back to safety if you think you have been read ahead. Hope this helps. But consider a more professional advice.
Yeah I've had people dash attack m when I kick away, and counter/shield when I kick towards them. Jumping is nice option.

or they could just straight up attack you out of DL lol
 

TerumiLOLZ

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I'm doing horrible against Bayonetta. The Bayonetta board claims Corr vs.Bayo is tough for them but I do terrible against Bayonetta! What is everyone doing against Bayonetta that helps?
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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After catching up and reading the entire thread along with finally playing Kamui for a couple of days, I believe I have some knowledge to share.

First, on the topic of "instant" pins with dragon lunge, I found that using Z (grab) fits me WAY better than the B to A (I can spare my thumb pain).

Next I would like to point out that the charging f-smash hitbox can true combo into the followup on the first hit. It may have to be frame perfect because I got it consistently by releasing the charge as soon as the hit connected; hopefully this can apply to more hits from the charge.

I also found in the video below that nair can combo into a jump canceled up smash at 30% (tested it myself).

This video also shows several ways to rack up percent and even a fair to dragon lunge footstool setup, be sure to watch the whole video when you get the opportunity.

Last thing I would like to point out at the moment is this little gem right here.
2nd Example:

I forgot to mention that a short hop nair/fair can true combo into an instant pin (needs to be directly next to opponent or in close proximity). Also you need to be low to the ground. Can't recall exactly but I most likely executed this from a short hop.

I noticed that the player in this video opted for plenty of pummels. My version of this setup would remove the pummels and instead go for an up throw (I know earlier in the thread it was mentioned to save up throw for later but I would much rather let the kill throw stale early in the match so I can have a fresh one available when ready) that way I will have the chance to capitalize on the opponent's position and maybe go for a juggle with up airs and fairs.

I did notice how high the opponent was after the down tilt connected and that DI along with mashing the pin could render my whole post mute.

To reiterate my finds from earlier I would combine them and look to land this string around the beginning of a match (I got this at 0%; testing needed so we can find a percent cap).

String,Combo, or whatever: Nair/fair, pin cancel, down tilt into dash grab up throw does 35%,

Feedback on these discoveries will be most appreciated.
 
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Reizilla

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I'm doing horrible against Bayonetta. The Bayonetta board claims Corr vs.Bayo is tough for them but I do terrible against Bayonetta! What is everyone doing against Bayonetta that helps?
Lots of shield. Her only grab that really kills is fthrow at the ledge. Make sure not to drop shield if during side B. Roll behind it, and don't try to punish it unless you're at a good instant pin distance. Go for grabs fairly often to make them hesitate on witch time. What is giving you trouble specifically?
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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In my time fighting bayonetta as Kamui I experienced a lot of witch time spam into up smashes. Lucky for us if we trigger witch time with a nair the hitbox of the nair is disjointed enough to nullify the smash.

There's a video floating around the web of Luma's rapid jab beating out ALL of Bayo's smash attacks. Turns out almost any move can clank with them and render her vulnerable.

Unrelated: On a side note, it seems like most of us here are nocturnal; I mean during the lifespan of the speculation thread I saw a lot of activity around midnight when I decided to check the thread again. When I woke up, there was a new page. Color me shocked.

Later today when I find the video I will edit it in this post.

Found it

 
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Backwardinduction1

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I once managed to mash counter when I got witchtimed off of an f-tilt and the bayo charged it fully so I was able to get the counter off which killed her at like 50%.

Not a reliable method, but it's something to do if you're trapped in witch time on the ground if you used a move with little lag.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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I once managed to mash counter when I got witchtimed off of an f-tilt and the bayo charged it fully so I was able to get the counter off which killed her at like 50%.

Not a reliable method, but it's something to do if you're trapped in witch time on the ground if you used a move with little lag.
Lucky, I tried that before, thought it was impossible.
 

Planty

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I may have discovered something. I was playing against an Olimar and when the Pikmin stuck on me I charged my fsmash and it came off pretty quickly. Could that be an advantage over him in the matchup?
I have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm doing horrible against Bayonetta. The Bayonetta board claims Corr vs.Bayo is tough for them but I do terrible against Bayonetta! What is everyone doing against Bayonetta that helps?
I find that Bayo's biggest tool around low % is grounded side-b. I like to periodically do half charges of DFS (min charge won't work) to stop her from doing that. If you're on a stage with platforms, hide under them so you don't get hit by down-angled aerial side-b. As long as you keep at a decent distance and stick to this, you should be doing better. Bayonetta doesn't have good burst options at a distance except for side-b, so if you can keep her scared of using it, you'll do better. Also use your shield. I can't really give much good advice outside of this because both characters are new, but that should help a bit.

Luma's rapid jab beating out ALL of Bayo's smash attacks.
Luma's rapid jab is hilarious. It beats out just about anything that's not transcedent. The only way to beat it is to hit him right on top or right below him, between the spinning arms. It sounds easy until you try it and realize it's not feasible in a real match and requires and intense amount of precision.
 

Laken64

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After catching up and reading the entire thread along with finally playing Kamui for a couple of days, I believe I have some knowledge to share.

First, on the topic of "instant" pins with dragon lunge, I found that using Z (grab) fits me WAY better than the B to A (I can spare my thumb pain).

Next I would like to point out that the charging f-smash hitbox can true combo into the followup on the first hit. It may have to be frame perfect because I got it consistently by releasing the charge as soon as the hit connected; hopefully this can apply to more hits from the charge.

I also found in the video below that nair can combo into a jump canceled up smash at 30% (tested it myself).

This video also shows several ways to rack up percent and even a fair to dragon lunge footstool setup, be sure to watch the whole video when you get the opportunity.

Last thing I would like to point out at the moment is this little gem right here.
2nd Example:

I forgot to mention that a short hop nair/fair can true combo into an instant pin (needs to be directly next to opponent or in close proximity). Also you need to be low to the ground. Can't recall exactly but I most likely executed this from a short hop.

I noticed that the player in this video opted for plenty of pummels. My version of this setup would remove the pummels and instead go for an up throw (I know earlier in the thread it was mentioned to save up throw for later but I would much rather let the kill throw stale early in the match so I can have a fresh one available when ready) that way I will have the chance to capitalize on the opponent's position and maybe go for a juggle with up airs and fairs.

I did notice how high the opponent was after the down tilt connected and that DI along with mashing the pin could render my whole post mute.

To reiterate my finds from earlier I would combine them and look to land this string around the beginning of a match (I got this at 0%; testing needed so we can find a percent cap).

String,Combo, or whatever: Nair/fair, pin cancel, down tilt into dash grab up throw does 35%,

Feedback on these discoveries will be most appreciated.
The pin combo videos look good except theres one thing thats overlooked. You can escape the pin if you shake around enough so pinning down till cancel isn't a really good idea.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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The pin combo videos look good except theres one thing thats overlooked. You can escape the pin if you shake around enough so pinning down till cancel isn't a really good idea.
Yeah I noticed that and made a note of it somewhere in my post. Thanks for pointing it out (no sarcasm).

In other news by typing "corrin kamui combos setups montage" on youtube I found the 3 videos above for Kamui. I recently found two more videos that got uploaded. I decided to share these so we could analyze them and find anything of use (besides all the Dragon Ascent/Up-B kills).


In the first video, 2:20 looks applicable in a real match.


Stage Spike


I feel like the second video does not have much to offer. Only things I found worth noting is the hitbox of the up smash during the first clip and the situational stage spike at 1:11.
 
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Travitoninja99

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I have no idea what you're talking about.
He means the Yato Blade's hitbox whilst charging Fsmash; if you're opponent is close enough it will hit them multiple times, essentially trapping them until you release Fsmash or until they wiggle out of it.

Great to know that it works on pikmin!
 
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StarForce

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I also find myself a bit pressured against bayonetta. Lots of witch time. Sometimes counter as someone said although hard and needs a non expert Bayonetta player can work. CS killed today a Palutena at 68% after the damage. Pretty early and punishing.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Out of curiousity, would you ever find yourself using Jab instead of D-Tilt? I just recently realized they both share the same startup frame, except D-Tilt seems to outclass it in every aspect if it can combo into things and I heard it's a better poke.
 

Glory Blaze

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Out of curiousity, would you ever find yourself using Jab instead of D-Tilt? I just recently realized they both share the same startup frame, except D-Tilt seems to outclass it in every aspect if it can combo into things and I heard it's a better poke.
If you're at the edge and their percent is too high for guaranteed dtilt combos, jab does more damage by itself and it sends them horizontally for an edgeguard setup rather than vertically for a juggle setup. So after around 80 or 90 i would imagine that jab vs dtilt is player preference on whether they find it easier to edgeguard or to read airdodges and get vertical kills
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Nice input. Personally? I would've just gone with Jab because I think it looks flashy. ;c
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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Nice input. Personally? I would've just gone with Jab because I think it looks flashy. ;c
Down tilt for what exactly?

Edit: Can someone quickly test if jab 1 can connect on a missed tech opponent. I don't recall correctly at the moment but I don't think you can act as fast out of jab 1 as down tilt. I also would like to know if the opponent is put in a standing animation out of jab 1 rather than being propelled into the air. (I am unable to test this myself until the weekend).

Also regarding my pin cancel combo for earlier, since mashing out of the pin is not widespread knowledge at the moment (knowledge of SDI'ing Lucas nairs is public knowledge, yet I was still able to land them consistently at TGC 6) we can abuse the setup until a miracle happens if and when we EVER find a way to manually cancel the dragon lunge pin.

StarForce StarForce what is CS?
 
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King9999

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Not sure if my previous question was answered, but is it possible for the opponent to tech out of DL when they're knocked down or tripped?

About Bayo, I feel like you have to shield a lot against her and wait for opportunities because Bayo players love to press buttons. I also think this makes her susceptible to counters if you can find gaps.
 
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NINTENDO Galaxy

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In my time fighting bayonetta as Kamui I experienced a lot of witch time spam into up smashes. Lucky for us if we trigger witch time with a nair the hitbox of the nair is disjointed enough to nullify the smash.

There's a video floating around the web of Luma's rapid jab beating out ALL of Bayo's smash attacks. Turns out almost any move can clank with them and render her vulnerable.

Later today when I find the video I will edit it in this post. Found it

King9999 King9999 To answer your question, I tested it yesterday offline at a friend's house multiple times while mashing grab (while grounded) to no success; but my theory is that if the opponent just so happens to be airborne as you pin them they should have a few frames to tech (somewhere I saw a sonic get hit with a dragon lunge and was able to jump out after he got pinned while airborne). Now that I think about it, he most likely mashed out. I know I did not see a tech.

"Zvarri! The truth has once again been elegantly revealed to me!" - Luke Atmey, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations

I just remembered a find I witnessed at TGC 6! I was walking around spectating matches when a Kamui player managed to hit their opponent off the ledge with the f-smash charge hitbox. I know what I saw; if it fails to work on all characters it must be character specific.

On a side note, has anyone tried to land a semi-charged Dragon Fang shot, proceed to run behind to opponent and hit the tipper of Dragon Lunge as they fly past you? I've gotten a couple of kills with that at the edge of the stage and halfway near the center of the stage.

Heh, whaddya know, I actually found someone teching dragon lunge.

 
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D

Deleted member 189823

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Does charging F-Smash's hitbox extend to Corrin's back? Say if I were to charge it near the ledge, like Lucario's B. What about our own B, does it have the same effect?
 

OceloT42

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Does charging F-Smash's hitbox extend to Corrin's back? Say if I were to charge it near the ledge, like Lucario's B. What about our own B, does it have the same effect?
Neither Fsmash nor neutral B hits behind him/her. However, the rapid jab somehow does.
Can instant pin be done only by sliding from B to A, or can I press another button? It's quite a chore, and I keep messing up timing.
 
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StarForce

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Down tilt for what exactly?

Edit: Can someone quickly test if jab 1 can connect on a missed tech opponent. I don't recall correctly at the moment but I don't think you can act as fast out of jab 1 as down tilt. I also would like to know if the opponent is put in a standing animation out of jab 1 rather than being propelled into the air. (I am unable to test this myself until the weekend).

Also regarding my pin cancel combo for earlier, since mashing out of the pin is not widespread knowledge at the moment (knowledge of SDI'ing Lucas nairs is public knowledge, yet I was still able to land them consistently at TGC 6) we can abuse the setup until a miracle happens if and when we EVER find a way to manually cancel the dragon lunge pin.

StarForce StarForce what is CS?
That'll be Counter Surge. And thanks for the videos provided around the posts.
 

HaloCN

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I've tested it very shortly with my brother, but it seems like when you stand at the far edge and are facing the platform, that you can cover rolls, get ups and jumps from the melee hitboxes of Fsmash.

Has any1 else noticed this?
 

Nu~

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King9999 King9999 To answer your question, I tested it yesterday offline at a friend's house multiple times while mashing grab (while grounded) to no success; but my theory is that if the opponent just so happens to be airborne as you pin them they should have a few frames to tech (somewhere I saw a sonic get hit with a dragon lunge and was able to jump out after he got pinned while airborne). Now that I think about it, he most likely mashed out. I know I did not see a tech.

"Zvarri! The truth has once again been elegantly revealed to me!" - Luke Atmey, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations

I just remembered a find I witnessed at TGC 6! I was walking around spectating matches when a Kamui player managed to hit their opponent off the ledge with the f-smash charge hitbox. I know what I saw; if it fails to work on all characters it must be character specific.

On a side note, has anyone tried to land a semi-charged Dragon Fang shot, proceed to run behind to opponent and hit the tipper of Dragon Lunge as they fly past you? I've gotten a couple of kills with that at the edge of the stage and halfway near the center of the stage.

Heh, whaddya know, I actually found someone teching dragon lunge.

Ayyyy! Looks like someone out there is using my Jab 1-> Dtilt combo :D
 
D

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A few things I've picked up in beating up on the poorly-designed AI of level 9 computers (I only have access to my 3DS and don't have a consistent internet connection which I could use to play online with it):

These things are fairly obvious but I figured it'd be good to write them down just for reference:

Because of the near absurd disjointed range on Kamui's aerials, she can pretty easily Nair or Fair her way through all lower-damage projectiles (read: anything that isn't say full Samus Charge Shot, Mewtwo Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere, etc.), which I think came pretty obvious but I figured I'd point it out anyways considering the number of times I've done it (this also means she doesn't really care about Bowser Jr's Mechakoopa, SH retreating Fair or Nair destroys it). Furthermore, the ridiculous range allows her aerials to destroy Link's/TL's bombs, and Samus's missiles midair without taking damage as long as they are spaced at maximum range (iirc).

Also because of the low max damage of DFS (13%), it clanks with pretty much every low-damage projectile which is clankable (Mario's Fireballs at close range, for example), an exception to this may be Robin's Arcthunder and possibly Thunder, since they only deal 3% on it's first hit, and 4.5%, respectively (according to Kurogane Hammer), as well as Mario's Fireballs at long range (which deal 4%). Because Sheik's Needles and Falco's Lasers are transcendent, it of course doesn't affect those. (Again, obvious, but a good thing to keep in mind).

With regards to all of this I consider it important to note for those that don't know that a grounded move/projectile must deal an amount greater than 8% in order to "beat" another grounded move/projectile.

Tipper DL can also be "clanked" by aerials (which means that it isn't treated like an aerial attack even when DL is activated in the air since afaik the rule of "aerials don't clank, they only trade" still applies), I say "clanked" because I was toying with a Ryu CPU who Faired an aerial tipper DL and didn't take any damage (and of course his Fair kept going).

As one more thing, Corrin actually gets momentum-shift/slide benefits from DITCIT!

For those that don't know, DITCIT stands for "Dash Item Throw Cancel Item Throw," although since I play Link I usually refer to it as bombsliding in his case.

The two videos below demonstrate the concept, the first makes a brief mention of the general concept (and points out which characters get significant distance from the technique) and then focuses on its applications of the common forward throws with Pac-Man, the second one demonstrates it with Link specifically and covers all of the possible throw directions which are possible with DITCIT (for all characters):

Pac-Man (and brief general message):

Link (which also covers the basic inputs for each throw direction)

For those of you wishing for a more in-depth explanation, I recommend you read the write-up that has been done regarding the technique in the Link boards (courtesy of Fox is Openly Deceptive), which can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-links-ats.400585/

(Scroll down to the section about bombs in the "Keaton Quiz," the answer is there were 12 characters on the Smash 64 roster. The write-up about bombsliding is located under the heading "Sliding and Throwing Techs")

This goes through the concept and the possible throws in a written manner and also covers the various input variations you can use to perform the technique (I personally use the A+B method, and I consider this method to be the best for being able to perform every variant of the DITCIT).

If I had to give Corrin a distance ranking for her DITCIT, it is less than Link's (whose is one of the better slide distances), but still a notable distance. Now, since Corrin doesn't have a throwable projectile of her own, this only applies when you are fighting characters that do, such as ROB, the Links, Peach, Pac-Man, but nonetheless it can prove useful as an approach/pressure/movement option in those matchups (for example, Ike has one of the furthest sliding distances for DITCIT, and I have seen Ryo apply this using ROB's Gyro to slide in as an approach and connect a jab, among some other things).




------------------

Also Reizilla Reizilla , I wouldn't be opposed to being "in charge" of a DL-dedicated thread, that said, I'm not sure if I quite have the time to go through all of the research and such which would go into a thread dedicated to the move (yes, I have already done a decent amount, but IMO a thread dedicated to it would have full data on DL with respect to platforms on different stages, other related applications outside of those which I have posted, etc). That and because I don't have access to my Wii U I wouldn't be able to perform such testing on the majority of the legal stages (Lylat, Smashville, T&C, etc.).
 
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StarForce

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A Corrin guide is out by Youtube Channel One Hit Smash. Check it out or go to the news section here in Smashboards and see it as it's an article poste by SmashCapps a few minutes ago. Drop a comment to him for bringing that article so soon to light. The video should go into a few details such as guaranteed and not guaranteed combos.
 
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OceloT42

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Is Dair a true meteor? Like Kirby's?
It looks like it pops people up even offstage...
 
D

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Is Dair a true meteor? Like Kirby's?
It looks like it pops people up even offstage...
If you are asking if it has a typical "true meteor" hitbox, a la Kirby or Mario, or to make a comparison to the other stall-then-falls, like Sheik's, Sonic's, Greninja's or Toon Link's, then no.

Corrin's Dair does pull the opponent down with her (obviously), but there is no "last hit" that is stronger than all of the intermediate hits (and thus would have a "true meteor" effect, like Kirby's).

So, while the opponent will be dragged down, they will never (usually) be subjected to the increased hitstun and knockback that comes with a typical "true meteor hitbox" which is why you won't usually (if ever) hear the typical meteor sound (although I swear I've heard it in some cases), and which is why most opponents can U-B immediately after the Dair ends in the air.

On top of that, as Corrin is hitting the opponent with Dair, she tends to "fall through them," that is, opponents that are hit at the beginning of the move by the bottom hitbox at the end of her legs will eventually shift as they are being hit to be above Corrin. They will maintain the downwards momentum from being hit by the move but will actually be slightly above her when the move finishes, which is why if you suicide Dair, you'll usually (save for rare cases, I think) lose your stock before the opponent will.
 
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Nu~

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If you are asking if it has a typical "true meteor" hitbox, a la Kirby or Mario, or to make a comparison to the other stall-then-falls, like Sheik's, Sonic's, Greninja's or Toon Link's, then no.

Corrin's Dair does pull the opponent down with her (obviously), but there is no "last hit" that is stronger than all of the intermediate hits (and thus would have a "true meteor" effect, like Kirby's).

So, while the opponent will be dragged down, they will never (usually) be subjected to the increased hitstun and knockback that comes with a typical "true meteor hitbox" which is why you won't usually (if ever) hear the typical meteor sound (although I swear I've heard it in some cases), and which is why most opponents can U-B immediately after the Dair ends in the air.

On top of that, as Corrin is hitting the opponent with Dair, she tends to "fall through them," that is, opponents that are hit at the beginning of the move by the bottom hitbox at the end of her legs will eventually shift as they are being hit to be above Corrin. They will maintain the downwards momentum from being hit by the move but will actually be slightly above her when the move finishes, which is why if you suicide Dair, you'll usually (save for rare cases, I think) lose your stock before the opponent will.
True, but because every hit drags the opponent down, we get the sheik/Zss effect when we hit a recovery with a hitbox.

That is, if our Dair clashes with a recovery move like fire fox, we get a strong spike.
 
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OceloT42

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If you are asking if it has a typical "true meteor" hitbox, a la Kirby or Mario, or to make a comparison to the other stall-then-falls, like Sheik's, Sonic's, Greninja's or Toon Link's, then no.

Corrin's Dair does pull the opponent down with her (obviously), but there is no "last hit" that is stronger than all of the intermediate hits (and thus would have a "true meteor" effect, like Kirby's).

So, while the opponent will be dragged down, they will never (usually) be subjected to the increased hitstun and knockback that comes with a typical "true meteor hitbox" which is why you won't usually (if ever) hear the typical meteor sound (although I swear I've heard it in some cases), and which is why most opponents can U-B immediately after the Dair ends in the air.

On top of that, as Corrin is hitting the opponent with Dair, she tends to "fall through them," that is, opponents that are hit at the beginning of the move by the bottom hitbox at the end of her legs will eventually shift as they are being hit to be above Corrin. They will maintain the downwards momentum from being hit by the move but will actually be slightly above her when the move finishes, which is why if you suicide Dair, you'll usually (save for rare cases, I think) lose your stock before the opponent will.
Would this allow for carefully timed and placed footstools?
 

IndigoSSB

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Corrin's dair behaves a lot like Kirby's dair at early percents, it sends opponents downward with little hit stun. I'm not sure if it works like Kirby's at higher percents though, Kirby's dair becomes a true meteor at high percents but I haven't tested it with Corrin yet.
 
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Would this allow for carefully timed and placed footstools?
Do you mean after a Dair?

I have seen people successfully footstool out of aerial Dair but it requires a notable amount of precision of course.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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A Corrin guide is out by Youtube Channel One Hit Smash. Check it out or go to the news section here in Smashboards and see it as it's an article poste by SmashCapps a few minutes ago. Drop a comment to him for bringing that article so soon to light. The video should go into a few details such as guaranteed and not guaranteed combos.
I enjoyed the video.
 
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