Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[Deleted member 189823]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrViMjysaBQ
Skip to 1:12. I can't properly test this because I only have a 3ds. In training mode the consecutive stuns don't register as a combo, but a stun to a forward smash will. You don't have to perfect pivot (I can't on the 3ds). If you're close enough, you can just forward smash away, though in some cases you may want to angle it. If you aren't close enough, you can do one fox trot forward and then forward smash. The timing is kind of tight, as you can either get a dash attack if you're too early or have it not combo if you're too late. I suppose a perfect pivot would ease up the timing a bit. If you're close enough to not need a fox trot, you can also go for another shot into a fully charged bite.

It appears to work on actually quite a few characters, not all of which are fast fallers. On more floaty characters it appears that they gain a short bit of immunity to the stun. I can't figure out why. The best testing I could do was look for those characters who gain that immunity.

Some characters on which I got this to work are Fox, Roy, Greninja, Shiek, Link, Cloud, Charizard, D3, Falco, Bayonnaise, ZSS, Captain Dashgrab, Gdorf, Lucario, Rob, Mac, Mario, and Meta Knight. It was in training mode at 90%.

I expected it to work on Diddy, but he's too short (and apparently Meta Knight isn't?...). Link's shield forces you to start it from behind.

I suppose this would be pretty great if it's actually true, thought I'm at a loss for setting up into the shot.

Please help me.

I don't see why this can't be expanded upon. Situational? Sort of. But gimmicky? Not that much, honestly. I find landing Dragon Balls (yes, ****ing Dragon Balls) hard enough as it is, but when it does land, it should pretty much be intended for a kill (hence why I never encourage people to use this a lot). You're looking to kill people at something like 70 (and even less, on lighter characters). Literally did this only once in my life. It was on 3DS, against a gaw, and it was super out of the blue- but it worked. Doesn't look hard to pull off, it's usually just landing the actual shot in the first place. I use to miss a ton of kill opportunities by not being able to react to said opportunities.

We have a ton of things to exploit as a main, you guys should be working on some of these. Like, I'm deliberately a dumbass and play Corrin the way you shouldn't, but I don't see how you guys ought to put a lock on yourselves.

 

[N 2the ayr]

Excuse the terribleness of my upload lol (my buddy tried hard to get good footage but the place was crowded) but I got to play Marss at GUMS 09 over the weekend. Already knew I was going to get destroyed but I was so pumped that I got to play him (my buddy played Pugwest too). Game 1 was a complete beatdown and I got like 17% on him due to me being extremely flustered and not playing like I normally do. Was able to calm down Game 2 and get around 125% on him and I felt I was very close to taking a stock off one of the best players in the world. Lots of room for improvement and that's my goal but I'm happy with how I played him on the run back. Next time I'm going to make it more interesting and give us Corrins a good name. Any feedback you guys can muster up from the gameplay is greatly appreciated. We also played Craftis (very good Sonic/ranked kid) in dubs and got their team down to one stock each which we were happy about too.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Not be an ass, but I could barely see much of anything, to be honest. With that out of the way, of the little I've managed to get, I can't say I can pin-point any one single mistake. You just seem green, in general. Like, you seem a little desperate, in the way that you've thrown out many Smash attacks out of the blue (every single one of them, including TIPPER F-Smash is punishable, especially against her). You have the oh-so-common habit of rolling (I've seen a couple, but not like they were a crapton...he still caught a few of them).

However, I do know what it's like to be struck by a name or reputation. I, myself, can be prone to that. That can influence, but don't let it get to you. That, for starters. I'd highly recommend that you get a match against another good/decent players so we can actually point out what there is to point out. It was very hard to see, and I don't blame you guys (considering you may very well not even know the owner of the setup or TO to get the replay/s). Or against a friend, or something. Just try not to make it something where you're absolutely one-siding the match, otherwise it's harder when everything's working in your favor.

 

[OceloT42]

Silly question: What is the most satisfying kill you've gotten? Doesn't have to be practical, so jank stuff can be mentioned too.
My favorite is landing up close with an uncharged DFS to fully charged bite in a ditto match against a spammer on FG. His shivering as my weaponised death limb closed upon him was unbeatable.

 

[C0rvus]

General matchup question, but I've been struggling against other sword characters. I've noticed that my usual gameplan of y'know, zoning and lots of short hop baits, isn't very effective. How are you supposed to play against characters with comparable ranged tools? I need to change something, possibly use more pin and stay grounded.

...Maybe I should've saved a replay.

 

[OceloT42]

General matchup question, but I've been struggling against other sword characters. I've noticed that my usual gameplan of y'know, zoning and lots of short hop baits, isn't very effective. How are you supposed to play against characters with comparable ranged tools? I need to change something, possibly use more pin and stay grounded.

...Maybe I should've saved a replay.

Any specific sword characters, or just all of them?
The only sword characters who should be giving you trouble is Cloud and Marth (and possibly a good Ike).
So, start spacing with RAR Bairs. They're safe on shield if done correctly, and send people at a horizontal-ish knockback, which swordsmen struggle to recover from.
Remember that beside Cloud and the Pits, you are the only swordsman/woman to possess a projectile. It's priority is crappy but it's a projectile nonetheless. Use that too.
I guess that's all I have to say. Good luck mate.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

General matchup question, but I've been struggling against other sword characters. I've noticed that my usual gameplan of y'know, zoning and lots of short hop baits, isn't very effective. How are you supposed to play against characters with comparable ranged tools? I need to change something, possibly use more pin and stay grounded.

...Maybe I should've saved a replay.

Funny, I was actually about to dress that one issue. Other sword characters can give us issues if we're used to "doing our own" thing and trying to go combo mode. It basically rattles down to who attacks first, or it's a mentally handicapped battle of constant trades. It literally offends me every time I play someone like this online, although it does teach me how to be more passive-aggressive and still be able to, you know, actually shield. So, basically, you're going to want to shield a lot more, and not over-commit when you do hit their shield. Was having a super hard time with a stupidly-aggresive Lucina the other day because he literally attacked out of everything. I couldn't even jump out to safety because he could pretty much always jab or F-Tilt OoS everytime I landed a not-B-air aerial or Side B. The cool, thing, though, we actually have a lot more in the way of combos. So even though you feel you're forced to Shield, you can actually start getting a ton more off single hits in terms of conversions at mid-percents (like, F/N-air to F-air to U-air).

also, Grab. Grab a ****ton. This, single-handedly, polarised the Marth MU against an overly-aggresive Marth for me. Dash to Shieldgrab grab is especially good if they tend to get carried away with their aggressiveness.

 

[Planty]

Dash -> shield is the bane of every single sword character. Corrin has the best dash -> shield. Figure it out.

 

[C0rvus]

So basically, abuse dash to shield and good foxtrot. Play grounded and whiff punish with pin. Win footsies and force ledge situations, where we thrive. I'll try and implement this stuff next time. Thanks, folks.

 

[OceloT42]

Dash -> shield is the bane of every single sword character. Corrin has the best dash -> shield. Figure it out.

Maybe because Corrin's barefoot so can brake better?
You're a funny man, Sakurai. A funny little man.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Dash -> shield is the bane of every single sword character. Corrin has the best dash -> shield. Figure it out.

How did this come about, again? I'm all for Dashing in and Shielding, but I don't get how it falls under "best". Like, I do know it's Frame 8, but I'm going to need a little more than that.

So basically, abuse dash to shield and good foxtrot. Play grounded and whiff punish with pin. Win footsies and force ledge situations, where we thrive. I'll try and implement this stuff next time. Thanks, folks.

Don't think anyone said anything about Fox-throts, fam. Not super sure about how good they can do us, but I don't think it can add an extra dimension if you know how to stutter-step and Pivot F-Smash as it is.

Maybe because Corrin's barefoot so can brake better?
You're a funny man, Sakurai. A funny little man.

Hu. Is that so? I've always found it a little hard to space perfectly. You know, since I move a ton, Corrin feels a little "slippery" at times. Compare Roy and Corrin's RaRs (just the turnaround). Roy pretty much turns around on spot, while Corrin kind of slides a little.


I've been labbing a few things with Corrin. Said things generally come across as "gimmicky" to a few, and it doesn't seem like people experimented with these things. among said things, I'm trying out footsies, kill setups (mainly off aerials) and stuff we can abuse at the ledge (ledge trump TIPPER is one of these). They seem pretty reliable, and I've even gotten F/N-air to footsie rather consistently. also, footsies OoS.

I actually feel like making a video of these. While I'm at it, does anyone know at what frame FF F/N-air would come out?

 

[OceloT42]

How did this come about, again? I'm all for Dashing in and Shielding, but I don't get how it falls under "best". Like, I do know it's Frame 8, but I'm going to need a little more than that.


Don't think anyone said anything about Fox-throts, fam. Not super sure about how good they can do us, but I don't think it can add an extra dimension if you know how to stutter-step and Pivot F-Smash as it is.


Hu. Is that so? I've always found it a little hard to space perfectly. You know, since I move a ton, Corrin feels a little "slippery" at times. Compare Roy and Corrin's RaRs (just the turnaround). Roy pretty much turns around on spot, while Corrin kind of slides a little.


I've been labbing a few things with Corrin. Said things generally come across as "gimmicky" to a few, and it doesn't seem like people experimented with these things. among said things, I'm trying out footsies, kill setups (mainly off aerials) and stuff we can abuse at the ledge (ledge trump TIPPER is one of these). They seem pretty reliable, and I've even gotten F/N-air to footsie rather consistently. also, footsies OoS.

I actually feel like making a video of these. While I'm at it, does anyone know at what frame FF F/N-air would come out?

I do RARs more comfortably with Corrin than anyone else, but then again I've been playing only her since April.
Also Corrin's Dash to shield is the fastest in the game, tied with Shiek. Is that enough to work with?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

all the more reason for me to play a grounded Corrin. Balance is key.

also, to answer your question. El Cas, is, by faaaaaar, my favorite way to kill:

It's just so freaking quick, powerful and unexpected. It also takes a lot of precision to land. I actually struggle a lot more with the a/b timing than the actual aiming. But, hell, does it feel good. I've actually been meaning to practice this a lot more. I'm starting to actually be able to land these, at least 2 every 5 or so matches.

 

[OceloT42]

all the more reason for me to play a grounded Corrin. Balance is key.

also, to answer your question. El Cas, is, by faaaaaar, my favorite way to kill:

It's just so freaking quick, powerful and unexpected. It also takes a lot of precision to land. I actually struggle a lot more with the a/b timing than the actual aiming. But, hell, does it feel good. I've actually been meaning to practice this a lot more. I'm starting to actually be able to land these, at least 2 every 5 or so matches.

Oooh yes, I love it when you get the stabby feet and Corrin just hangs there like "Oh, is it over? 'kay then."
I'd also like to tell people that a lot of ledge traps can be escaped by leaving the ledge, jumping and immediately impaling the ledge and kicking.
Also, finally, question: What is that thingy where if you hit an object your hitbox lasts longer and is slightly extended? It's happened a couple of times to me-
1) Playing against a Pacman, Fsmash his hydrant,and he runs straight into the tip of the lance.
2) Fsmash a Luma with the furthest part of my tipper, hits Rosalina who was a slight gap away. Kills them.

 

[Nah]

unless I either don't understand what you mean, or don't understand footsies as well as I thought, I don't think "footsies OoS" is a thing

Also, finally, question: What is that thingy where if you hit an object your hitbox lasts longer and is slightly extended? It's happened a couple of times to me-
1) Playing against a Pacman, Fsmash his hydrant,and he runs straight into the tip of the lance.
2) Fsmash a Luma with the furthest part of my tipper, hits Rosalina who was a slight gap away. Kills them.

Probably is hitlag/has something to do with hitlag? I'm not sure really....

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I can make it a thing.

 

[luke_atyeo]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

luke_atyeo

uhhh, well, here's my go at it:

- Instant Pin is Frame 8, packs plenty of range and decent kill power. It's a staple in our metagame, but not everything.
- Corrin's deceptively heavy.
- U-air's not "super, super, SUPER" strong if you know how to DI.

Somebody cover for me, I'm not sure what else goes.

 

[OceloT42]

luke_atyeo

uhhh, well, here's my go at it:

- Instant Pin is Frame 8, packs plenty of range and decent kill power. It's a staple in our metagame, but not everything.
- Corrin's deceptively heavy.
- U-air's not "super, super, SUPER" strong if you know how to DI.

Somebody cover for me, I'm not sure what else goes.

Bair, Fsmash, Dragon Lunge all significantly extend our hurtboxes.
Dair can be recovered from offstage, requires perfect timing and precision.
Nearly Charged Bite deals greater knockback than Fully Charged Bite.
Dtilt, Utilt, Fair and Nair are our main combo/juggle tools.
There's nothing wrong with using Male Corrin.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think I've been hit on the wings a couple of times, LOL. Though it does seem rather rare. Could be the startup before the actual hit? Nice ones.

 

[OceloT42]

I think I've been hit on the wings a couple of times, LOL. Though it does seem rather rare. Could be the startup before the actual hit? Nice ones.

Plus there's the occasion where you try to flap your way back to stage from the side blast zones out of hitstun and instead die.

 

[OceloT42]

May be a silly question, but can someone explain why Draconic Ascent does not stage spike as well as Blazer and Dolphin Slash?

 

[C0rvus]

I would think because of the size of the hitbox and the launch angle. It tends to scoop people in and send them pretty much straight up, whereas Dolphin Slash sends horizontally and is very fast, and Blazer drags opponents into the stage.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I literally think F-air's our best move.

 

[Nah]

I literally think F-air's our best move.

Why's that?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Spaced well, it creates a lot of opportunities. It's pretty much our very neutral, without the drawbacks of Pin (smart people are used to shielding against Corrin at mid-range). At low-percents, it leads to a Pin confirm. Mid-percents, consistent 2-3, sometimes even 4-hit combos and puts them in the air. This leads to better positioning and more consistent in terms of momentum. Something I always preach, is for people not to overuse The Pin, since they just make it a staple of their neutral itself and end up staling it so much it can't even kill at 140 or so. And when you're in MU where you'll struggle to land kill moves (MUs like Mewtwo, Sheik and DDK, for example), it's really there for that purpose. F-air can also be mixed-up in so many ways that it serves as the multi-purpose tool it is. This is the one reason as to why I think the Diddy Kong MU is even. For starters, we can deal with peels in so many ways it's barely a problem (our aerials eat through it/catch it). Rising and retreating F-air are especially good in that MU because it deals with his own F-air, which is literally the single most annoying thing in the MU (used to think he could F-air our shield for free, but it isn't that bad).

All in all, it's the whole package that makes the difference. F-air works best when used in conjuction to N-air (which I dare call Corrin's 2nd best tool right after). People barely look to use these to there potential when they're too carried away by staling Pins here and there. These are the MVPs.

 

[OceloT42]

Spaced well, it creates a lot of opportunities. It's pretty much our very neutral, without the drawbacks of Pin (smart people are used to shielding against Corrin at mid-range). At low-percents, it leads to a Pin confirm. Mid-percents, consistent 2-3, sometimes even 4-hit combos and puts them in the air. This leads to better positioning and more consistent in terms of momentum. Something I always preach, is for people not to overuse The Pin, since they just make it a staple of their neutral itself and end up staling it so much it can't even kill at 140 or so. And when you're in MU where you'll struggle to land kill moves (MUs like Mewtwo, Sheik and DDK, for example), it's really there for that purpose. F-air can also be mixed-up in so many ways that it serves as the multi-purpose tool it is. This is the one reason as to why I think the Diddy Kong MU is even. For starters, we can deal with peels in so many ways it's barely a problem (our aerials eat through it/catch it). Rising and retreating F-air are especially good in that MU because it deals with his own F-air, which is literally the single most annoying thing in the MU (used to think he could F-air our shield for free, but it isn't that bad).

All in all, it's the whole package that makes the difference. F-air works best when used in conjuction to N-air (which I dare call Corrin's 2nd best tool right after). People barely look to use these to there potential when they're too carried away by staling Pins here and there. These are the MVPs.

Well said, Oz.
Everyone, when Corrin first came out, Instant Pin used to be my everything. My neutral, my stage control, my punish.
Then i realized that Instant Pin would struggle to take a stock even at 160. I blamed Instant Pin's lack of kill power.
However, after i talked with Oz, I began to incorporate more shielding and aerials into my game, and it's done wonders.
So yeah, Fair and Nair are our best moves.

 

[C0rvus]

Pin is Corrin's defining move for sure, but recently Frozen (?) was labbing options characters had to stuff Pin on shield before the kick can come out. Meta Knight can Shuttle Loop, Mewtwo can fair, etc. So the move isn't technically safe at all against many characters, even beyond those that can chase down the kick away and punish. So, grounded Pin will be strictly a whiff punishing tool in those matchups, and it is quite good at that. Aerial Pin is still good. (Fullhop Pin can be really strong in some matchups, I've been experimenting with it a bit.)

BUT against characters who can't really punish Dragon Lunge, it can be quite the oppressive tool. Slow characters may have no choice but to respect it. When you kick away or jump cancel it you still give up stage control, but this is still a matchup defining tool imo. So not Corrin's best move, but definitely their calling card, so to speak.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

All it takes is an opponent actually shields. That's how I learned. Hell, I thought Corrin was barely Mid-tier material when I started using them because I couldn't do jack against Shields. Then I learned to Tomohawk, space and actually Grab. It's all in the mixups, and you can do wonders if you're good with your spacing. MU's become really annoying if you're just expecting people to run in and get Pin'd. Ever fought someone that doesn't approach for ****, and actually isn't afraid to just sit in Shield?

With that said, I'm also trying to maximise our combos. That's what you want. The idea isn't to just chip away slowly (though, it helps).

This is actually a perfect example:

BlueBeast is actually one of the better Corrins out there. He was the one that sent Ally to Losers in the first place, at CEO. But, he's actually very Pin-happy. You can see how it went.

 

[OceloT42]

Guys, Corrin's been placed 18th in the new official tier list. Personally I'm happy with the placement, though I'm a bit irritated that Cloud's second place on the tier list. What do you think?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'm not. Cloud deserves it. Literally, his one only drawback is his recovery, and people don't exploit that (which leads me to believe it's not as one-sided as people make it seem; mixups exist). His spot with Diddy Kong seems exchangable, almost. Results say the same, pretty much.
Based on results, Corrin's spot is generous. I think he's Top 10 and Marth's a trend.

 

[Nah]

this is part of what I posted in the CCI thread when the new list was put up, probably an unpopular opinion here:

A few minor issues I have with it that I guess I'll voice is that: Corrin is not high tier, and has not proven herself to be the best Fire Emblem character. At this point Marth really takes that title instead. Lucina is a little too far from Marth. I'm surprised that Ike is that far down mid-tier and not closer to Robin.

Cloud is def a top 5 character, though where he falls exactly is highly debatable.

 

[OceloT42]

this is part of what I posted in the CCI thread when the new list was put up, probably an unpopular opinion here:


Cloud is def a top 5 character, though where he falls exactly is highly debatable.

I can see why you think that. I believe, however, that there isn't really a "best" Fire Emblem character. They're all fantastic on their own respects.

 

[C0rvus]

I think Corrin isn't as high as that tier list places him. Marth is almost definitely better. However, Corrin very well may be high tier. It more or less depends on how far down the list you would consider high tier. I haven't sorted my thoughts into a tier list in quite a while, but I might put Corrin that high. Used to believe he was squarely a mid tier, but I've been playing him a while and really I've found that there isn't much that holds him back matchup-wise. If anything, due to his attributes (slow movement, developing counterplay to pin, etc) he may descend but Smash Con was a great event in terms of results for the character; something he has sorely been lacking.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I stopped reading at "marth is better". How is Marth better in any way. We have everything he has, except more.

 

[Nah]

I stopped reading at "marth is better". How is Marth better in any way. We have everything he has, except more.

Better overall mobility, better OoS options, better grounded pokes, his moveset on average has more raw kill power than Corrin's, etc.

 

[C0rvus]

Nah's got it. Mobility is the big one, of course. I do think the two are of a similar power level.

 

[OceloT42]

Siding with Oz here. Marth's good, but Corrin's better by a long shot.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Well, those are pretty good reasons, to be honest. Only real thing I thought he had on us was aerial tippers (which means it's safer on shield), and I completely forgot about Up-B (+OoS). If it's one thing we lack, is solid OoS options and we're sometimes combo food (tall + fast faller-ish).

 

[Deleted member 189823]