Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Manaphy21]

Hey everybody. I'm not sure if my question has been answered or not.

I've played since Christmas of last year (as well as all the Smash games). I've slowly been getting better thanks to resources like smashboards, r/smashbros and youtube videos. I still make mistakes but I try and learn from them.

However, I feel like I wouldn't do well in a tournament. Hell, I've done Anthers and got my body rocked. I'm told to get my moves out faster, check frame data for understanding moves, stop rolling and use shield (which is easy and I've done)... all that jazz. It's not discouraging to read that, but it's discouraging that I don't understand it.

I have no idea how to interpret frame data, and I'm not entirely sure how to make my reaction time faster. I'm clueless on how to get my nair out asap, or react fast enough to get that much needed grab in.

Is there any advice on how to read frame data? Or how to make your reaction time better? I want to be competitive, but I feel as if I'm hitting a ceiling. I watch a ton of tournament videos and stuff, but I feel like that's just giving me ideas for combos that I can't accurately do.

[TLDR WARNING]

I honestly don't know how to work with frame date, either, but to my limited understanding, frame data is used to pull off "sweetspots," which essentially are moments in a character's move that does the most damage and can potentially KO at lower percentages. For example, Rosalina has a sweetspot in both her Uair and Dair. Her Uair, coupled with Luma, is able to kill at very low percentages at the top of the stage if I am able to catch the falling opponent at the center of the halo AND when the animation is rising--or during the beginning frames of the animation. Her Dair functions in a very similar manner, and it has a meteor effect where if the opponent is caught directly under the halo during the beginning of the animation, there is a guarantee that they will be thrown so far down from the ledge that they will either perish or not be able to reach the ledge.

Another way frame data is used is learning to do jab-cancels, or cancels in general. I don't know much about this realm since I never liked playing characters like Falco or Fox that more-or-less use such things, but I think it requires VERY strict reaction times in order to get the grab followups and what have you.

Lastly, I've seen frame data used to analyze how "teching" against a stage works. Teching is basically pressing the Shield button at a certain time when you are slammed against the ground or side of the stage in order to prevent a severe meteor effect or knockback. This also requires a bit of practice since teching doesn't always work in some scenarios, such as Ganon and Falco's Dair or touching the side of the stage when recovering.

I may be completely wrong in my explanation, but that's how I basically see frame data. I've just honestly stuck to one character for a long time and tried learning what she can do and cannot do. The whole technical and numerical aspect of smash still baffles me, which is why I still have trouble reading patch notes. I still cannot for the life of me "dash dance," or run in place, but I try to find ways to replace such a thing by twirling Rosalina or holding back from attacking and then analyzing the situation.

If you want to make your reaction time faster, I highly recommend playing with lvl 9 CPUs. I know some people say that's a bad way to practice, BUT! Instead of trying to predict what the AI is going to do, learn to REACT to what they do. Lvl 9 CPUs are essentially "perfect" representations of every character in the roster, but they can be easily defeated by just camping.. So.. don't do that. Because they are supposed to be "perfect," this is great in helping you decided what are your best options or moves that you can use in that situation. Get close up in their face and see what they do; the fact that they are AI keeps the match unpredictable, so this can help you improve your mixups a bit. I also think CPUs are a great way in learning what a character does at a basic level. Sure, they aren't doing advanced stuff like an actual person can do, but it personally has helped me learn about certain matchups--again, at a basic level.

You said you watch a lot of tourney and combo videos, right? Well, take advantage of Training Mode in Smash 4! Training Mode allows you to basically beat the living crud out of an opposing character to your heart's content. It's also the same place where you can mess around with frame speed to look at frame data, use smash items for funzies, and practice combos on various characters to see how they react against them. For example, I discovered that Fox is a natural fast-faller, so I can take advantage of that and do Grab>Pummel>Upthrow>LumaJab until Fox is that the tip of Luma, where I finish off the jab and Fox had now gained a clean 32~40% damage. Honestly, if you have to spend hours just learning to do something, then DO SO! Don't hesitate in taking a day just to mess around on Training Mode. More often than not, you will find yourself discovering some pretty cool things about your character the more you experiment with them! At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to "muscle memory," or when you know something to the point that you can immediately do it, such as short-hopping a Nair. So keep practicing!

As for rolling.. My suggestion for this is learn to spot-dodge, Perfect/Powershield, or just run away to get out of a dangerous situation. Sometimes you don't even NEED to move from your place because you will eventually learn a variety of punish options against your opponent, such as grabbing out of shield, pivot smashing, or.. just patiently wait and scout out your opponent's habits. Rolling, however, is still useful in some situations; you can either roll back to prevent yourself getting dash attacked--if your roll isn't read--or roll towards and BEHIND your opponent when they made a crucial mistake, giving you the option to punish. Rolling is basically another mechanic in Smash that, when practiced well, still maintains itself as a helpful defense tool.

Now, the thing about tourneys is that it all comes down to exposure and experience. The reason you don't feel ready to play in a tourney is because you still don't have a lot of experience playing in one. And I get it.. IT'S NERVE-WRACKING the first time. You have people watching you play and simultaneously judging each move you do and commenting behind your back what you did and perhaps should have done better. However, you should find a way to keep your cool during the match. Try to tune out those noisy spectators by either wearing headphones or reassuring yourself that you will do your best. Easier said than done, right? I know, but like I said, it all comes down to exposure and experience. Yet, sometimes when you go to a local venue, you don't REALLY have to be playing in the actual tourney to gain experience. Why not just ask for friendlies? Friendlies are great in getting to know other people, as well as slowly warming up to the crowded atmosphere of the venue.

Phew.. Sorry for my long comment, but I hope it helps you continue to improve! Trust me, it's not easy at first to play this game seriously because you have SO MUCH information to take into account from both the website, Youtube, and whatnot, but take it slow and don't be afraid to keep reaching out for help!

 

[nintendonaut]

Hey everybody. I'm not sure if my question has been answered or not.

I've played since Christmas of last year (as well as all the Smash games). I've slowly been getting better thanks to resources like smashboards, r/smashbros and youtube videos. I still make mistakes but I try and learn from them.

However, I feel like I wouldn't do well in a tournament. Hell, I've done Anthers and got my body rocked. I'm told to get my moves out faster, check frame data for understanding moves, stop rolling and use shield (which is easy and I've done)... all that jazz. It's not discouraging to read that, but it's discouraging that I don't understand it.

I have no idea how to interpret frame data, and I'm not entirely sure how to make my reaction time faster. I'm clueless on how to get my nair out asap, or react fast enough to get that much needed grab in.

Is there any advice on how to read frame data? Or how to make your reaction time better? I want to be competitive, but I feel as if I'm hitting a ceiling. I watch a ton of tournament videos and stuff, but I feel like that's just giving me ideas for combos that I can't accurately do.

I don't think most players are intimately familiar with the frame data of their character to a point where they're calculating every single frame of every single move mid-match, and simultaneously comparing it to their opponents' -- Which they've also memorized front to back. So don't worry about knowing the active frames of every single move in the game, or anything ridiculous like that.

But, frame data is important on the competitive level, and you should at least be decently familiar with your main's frame data. If you haven't already, take a look at the Kurogane Hammer entry for Bowser Jr.

Basically, the numbers you're looking at are the active frames of the move and their base damage. Take Nair, for example. I'm not super familiar with Jr., but it looks like his Nair has three different stages as it spins--Each one progressively decreasing in damage. So the earliest part of the move does 6 base damage if it hits, while the ending part of it only does 3 base damage if it hits. The move becomes active on the 7th frame after you hit A. It hits the middle phase at frame 9, and the late phase on frame on frame 14. On frame 19, the move is no longer active. Even if there's more animation after frame 19, the move will no longer do any damage.

So what's important here? Not so much knowing everything I just said up there, but knowing what moves are safer than others. If you and an opponent throw a move at each other at the exact same time, who's going to win that trade? In most circumstances, it's going to be the one who threw out the move with the lowest active opening frame.

For example, I'm a R.O.B. main--My D-Tilt's first active frame is 3. It's an awesome move. If I land next to someone and immediately D-Tilt, their only option is to either shield (which begins on frame 1) or to throw out a move faster than my D-Tilt. Not many characters have moves that begin on frames lower than 3, so that's why the move is so good. An example of someone who could beat me out would be ZSS, who's first jab begins on frame 1.

So, generally, you should be aware of what moves are the fastest--In your case, that seems to be your Nair. But just because Nair is your fastest move doesn't mean it's your best. I see most Jr. players space/approach with their Fair. That move is great, but it has quite a bit of startup--Beginning on frame 14. R.O.B.'s Fair begins on frame 6. so if you and I were to throw that move out simultaneously right next to each other, I would win--But since you know your Fair takes a few frames to start, you should learn how to properly space it in order to achieve the most success. In other words, begin the move a bit of a distance away from your opponent so you can safely start it, and then slightly fade into the opponent during the active frames of the move. If you hit the opponent, you're golden of course--If the move gets shielded, pull back away slightly during the finishing frames of the move. If you keep holding inward towards the opponent, you'll get grabbed right out of shield as soon as your move ends. That's basically what spacing is. Putting the proper distance between yourself and the opponent at all times so that your actions won't be punished, even if they're initially "unsuccessful" (e.g. they get shielded).

Also be sure to note a move's "FAF," or, "First Actionable Frame." Your F-Smash, for example, has a FAF of 60. So it will take 60 frames after you activate the move before you can make any other actions. That's very helpful data for learning how "punishable" a move is. Throwing out moves with high FAFs can be dangerous because, for example, F-Smash's FAF is 60, but the final active frame is 38. That means that an opponent has a whole 22 frames to do whatever they want to you. Know when a move is safe, and when it's not.

So that's the basic significance of frame data. There's more to learn, and I'm sure others may have some corrections/additions to what I just said, but I think it's a good gist of it. As far as reaction time, that's just something that comes with experience, though being aware of frame data basics can help. Also, too much rolling is a bad habit I think all of us struggle with in one way or another. Just really try to focus on other options, such as cancelling out of shield into a good move, or simply running the other direction.

 

[Bill cipher3]

I need help with shielding and mind games plus stage control. with shielding I just don't know when to shield because I feel like they'll grab every time I shield. with mind games I'm just bad. and stage control pretty much like mind games

 

[L-Button]

I read the entirety of Nintendonaut's post and for the largest part I did understand the gist of the whole thing. What I'm afraid of is my tendency of completely disregarding such techy knowledge when I'm actually in a battle, don't know why, I just freak out . As a fellow R.O.B. main, I even learnt a few new things like the D-tilt's lower frame than most moves, I already did it based on watching Mr. Eric's matches, but now I know why -- so thanks ^^. Since you are a R.O.B. main (and I'm a noobish aspirant), I was wondering if you have any advice and/or tips on how to master this very fun character. As of now I'm using this post http://smashboards.com/guides/upgrade-learn-r-o-b-s-advanced-techniques.256/ to get said basic moves into my muscle memory. I have booked relative success in this endeavor with the exception of some of the trickier ones due to not knowing how they're supposed to look like to begin with. It'd mean the world to me if you - or anyone for that matter - could guide a way too motivated noob to become less horrible.

Thanks in advance.
LButton

 

[Bluekirby2]

That would be my panic attacks.

Now I don't feel quite ready to reveal what the cause of them is, but I don't feel that is too important right now.

What is important is that they happen, and they could happen while playing Smash. This is a problem, as my panic attacks cause me to do worse on Smash, and can make me less focused on the game.

If anyone here has a method of helping me to focus more on Smash rather than the cause of my panic attack, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Rinku リンク]

That would be my panic attacks.

Now I don't feel quite ready to reveal what the cause of them is, but I don't feel that is too important right now.

What is important is that they happen, and they could happen while playing Smash. This is a problem, as my panic attacks cause me to do worse on Smash, and can make me less focused on the game.

If anyone here has a method of helping me to focus more on Smash rather than the cause of my panic attack, that would be greatly appreciated.

My advice to you would be to play to learn rather than win. If you solely focus on learning from matches rather than just trying to win it'll be a lot less stressful.

If you win great, if you lose no worries. As long as you're making observations and learning from your mistakes it can only be a win-win situation.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ignore post

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Lose more, and get used to it. Play for fun

 

[BlazeFlipnotes]

How do I mixup/be less predictable with my gameplay? Lots of people are telling that's my problem

 

[nintendonaut]

I read the entirety of Nintendonaut's post and for the largest part I did understand the gist of the whole thing. What I'm afraid of is my tendency of completely disregarding such techy knowledge when I'm actually in a battle, don't know why, I just freak out . As a fellow R.O.B. main, I even learnt a few new things like the D-tilt's lower frame than most moves, I already did it based on watching Mr. Eric's matches, but now I know why -- so thanks ^^. Since you are a R.O.B. main (and I'm a noobish aspirant), I was wondering if you have any advice and/or tips on how to master this very fun character. As of now I'm using this post http://smashboards.com/guides/upgrade-learn-r-o-b-s-advanced-techniques.256/ to get said basic moves into my muscle memory. I have booked relative success in this endeavor with the exception of some of the trickier ones due to not knowing how they're supposed to look like to begin with. It'd mean the world to me if you - or anyone for that matter - could guide a way too motivated noob to become less horrible.

Thanks in advance.
LButton

If you want more in-depth tips and tricks on R.O.B., definitely ask some questions in the Structured Query Thread over on the R.O.B. boards! I'll be there as well.

As for frame data, like I said earlier, you don't need to necessarily be conscious of the frames of each move every moment of every match. Just educate yourself and know how to properly use your moves based on their data. And if you're struggling against a certain move on a certain character, study the data and learn more about it.

How do I mixup/be less predictable with my gameplay? Lots of people are telling that's my problem

My best advice is to watch high level players who play your main. Observe what they do, and you'll often find things about your characters options that you never considered before.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Two questions.

One, for multi-hit type moves like Lucario's aura sphere trap, I should just DI away right?

Second, when DI down and away, is the control stick diagonal or do I input down then away sequentially?

 

[Pazx]

Two questions.

One, for multi-hit type moves like Lucario's aura sphere trap, I should just DI away right?

Second, when DI down and away, is the control stick diagonal or do I input down then away sequentially?

I'm pretty sure that rolling your stick between down and away is still the best way of doing it (it was in previous games but I'm not sure if it counts as the same number of inputs in this game, someone pls confirm this is still how SDI works). You can practice on moves like aura sphere or the Halberd laser, it's worth seeing what works best for you. Try doing this as fast as you can:

 

[Lavani]

^ that's how I SDI and it works quite well.

A good way to practice is by SDIing up and out of a smart bomb explosion before the final hit.

 

[Daxter]

[TLDR Warning! Just expressing some thoughts for you]

Hey, Daxter!

First of all, that's a very upsetting thing to hear.. In my opinion, I don't think they should be sending you a message with regards to your ability to win or how people negatively react to it; instead, they should have offered to help you improve your skills if they've come to notice you struggling to win.

Although, I do have to say that my experiences on Anther's Ladder have sometimes involved opponents getting upset with me either due to lag--despite me warning about it in both my profile AND during the live chat--or because I only practice Rosalina competitively. So in the long run, there's really nothing you can do about Anther's Ladder but just expect that people there will occasionally not appreciate where your skill level stands or how you currently play and view the game. Regardless of this, I still think Anther's Ladder is a great place to train, but I think you just need to be more public about not being as experienced as most people there.

To be completely honest, I myself frequent FG a lot. I usually do so in order to prevent people from complaining about my cruddy internet, but I think thanks to FG, I've been able to handle most characters usually on a basic level--occasionally running into someone that knows said character substantially better and then having almost two hours playing back and forth for practice. When I first picked up Smash 4 immediately after the 3DS launch, I set straight to FG with Pit. Let me tell you that I lost EVERY MATCH for the first month of playing Smash. At first, I found myself laughing at how silly my deaths were, but eventually, I did become bothered at how frequently I lost, so I started looking up guides and How-Tos for Pit, and he slowly became better and I slowly started winning more of my FG matches. After two months playing Pit, I switched over to Rosalina because I was curious why people didn't like her, and let me tell you that IT WAS HELL playing her the first time. I would SD so often, and Luma died a lot, and I developed an awful dash habit because I tried playing her like I played Pit. At the time, I could not fathom why people hated her because I kept dying so early with her than I would with Pit, so I continued to use Pit until one day.. I just suddenly realized I was preferring to play Rosalina more than Pit. Looking back, I guess the difficulty that Rosalina presented to me in playing her was what made me push myself to master her, and to this day, she is my strongest character.

Truth be told, while I do think some people have an easier time learning the mechanics of the game or character, everyone, EVERYONE has started out as a blank sheet in this game--even ZeRo, who sometimes shares his first-timer Smash stories on his Youtube channel. Hell, I've read around the Internet that even Nairo would cry or get emotional if he lost, but over time, he's also gotten better and hasn't given up because he made a goal for himself to improve no matter how hard it was. Now, he's even beaten ZeRo!

On the one hand, I've even had moments where I just wanted to give up because, being influenced by my cruddy friend who hates , I felt like I wasn't playing Rosalina correctly or simply did not understand why some things worked and why others didn't. Embarrassingly enough, I've even thrown down my controller in front of my friends because of how frustrated I was whenever I lost. The anger and frustration mainly came from the fact that this one friend of mine constantly expected me to win my matches because I played Rosalina; at the time, I just couldn't do it because, despite knowing her techs and quirks from watching Dabuz and Acethestar3rd, I had little to no hands-on experience of how she worked. I just played her how I thought she COULD be played--which, again, where I tried integrating my playstyle as Pit into her. It was even worse when I saw him play Rosalina because it made me feel like he was spiting me, showing off in a way as if I didn't know what she could do despite my lack of experience on the playing field.

But guess what? I decided to stop playing Rosalina in front of him during friendlies and kept my practice sessions with her away from his sight. Just like with Pit, I took the initiative to learn Rosalina on my own, playing with people on Facebook or Anther's Ladder. Or even just browsing Youtube the entire day just watching How-To videos. I'm not going to lie; I still cried sometimes--of course, in the comfort of my own bedroom--because I would have those very cruddy days where I would consistently lose on FG or lose a matchup that I previously had no trouble getting over. But at least I was now putting the effort to stop crying in front of my friends. Instead, I slowly learned to differentiate between a good, fun day of Smash with my friends and intense labbing and practice at venues or Anther's. By keeping away Rosalina from friendlies between my friends, I wasn't feeling pressured to perform well, and the game became fun again.

At the end of the day, I guess what helped me get through a lot of my ****storming and cryfests for not being "good enough" was actually having someone--or even a community--that understood my want and ambition to get better regardless of any character I played--as well as continuing to have the interest and passion in improving. Yet, I think I've honestly had more fun meeting other players in the competitive scene than trying to be so hardcore at Smash, and it's thanks to them and my very close friend for continuing to inspire me to keep improving. By reaching out making it clear that I want to learn, I was able to meet people that were more than happy to teach me--and endure my constant predictability. I'm still not the best or among the best Rosalina in my home state by any means, but I have seen surprising results for myself so far. And I'm hoping that by the end of college, I can go home and place higher at my home state's venues.

For you, my friend, all I'm really trying to achieve with my long comment is that I hope you don't give up learning your chosen character. I see that you love Robin! In my opinion, Robin is a bit tricky to work with since he or she--whichever palette you use--has quite a bit against his or her favor: her main problem being his or her slow speed and generally relying on very hard reads against the high-tiers. However, if it helps, I suggest watching Excel Mel. Excel Mel, in my opinion, has one of the best Robin handles, and she REALLY demonstrates that she has put A LOT of effort in making her Robin very good. You can see replays of her matches on Youtube, but I doubt she plays anymore because she recently got engaged--at least from what I saw before I closed my Facebook account. Yet, again, I think watching someone playing your character helps you improve your own handle on said character. So go have a looksee!

I also recommend following ZeRo's channel. He has very helpful advice when it comes to playing Smash, both competitively and casually, and his videos are also a source that I go to for cheering up and reassurance. It definitely helps me since I get really discouraged REALLY dang easily. He himself even understands and admits that he has his off-days and can say some pretty stupid things, but he keeps playing Smash because he loves it.

I also highly recommend watching a series of Smash videos called How to Smash, uploaded by SmashCentralOffical. I think this channel does a great job explaining the important fundamentals of the game, and this is where I still come to rewatch the videos in order to see what I can improve in my gameplay. Like with anything besides gaming, it all comes down to the bare fundamentals which will help you improve your skills.

Lastly, I continue to encourage to you try and reach out for help. It's ok to feel stuck, and here on SmashBoards, there's plenty of good folks that I'm sure are more than happy to lend a hand! There's no shame in expressing what you feel you need to work on or just generally ask about something you don't understand about the game. Smash 4 is constantly changing, and the meta is always changing because of new DLC and patches that either buff or nerf characters or completely change an important mechanic in the game--such as the new shield stun. At the end of the day, just remember that Smash is still a game, and don't hesitate to take a break from it if it becomes a bit unhealthy for you!

The biggest problem for me is that, I'm a very dumb person! When I do something, there's no cohesive thoughts behind my actions. Even when I type this message, I'm just doing the first thing that pops into my head, I have't planned my reply at all.

I may watch all these videos, read all the guides and practice for hours, but in the long run I still have no idea what I'm doing wrong, and even if I do, during the match I have no thought process beyond "I MUST land my attacks to win." My IQ is below 80, and is since Smash is all about mind games, that means I fall for the same tricks every time. Even after 5000 matches for example, possibly a lot more because of my erased/corrupted data, I still don't know what to do against someone playing as a typical Little Mac, or a flowchart Zero Suit Samus.

DI? Techs? Frame data? Patterns? Reading? My mind is too blank in a battle to even consider these things, even if I know them outside the battle. I'm not smart enough to understand the matchup details. My only thought is "Here is my attack? Attacks hit opponents." Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Drewthedude64]

So I haven't been watching too many tournament matches in general, outside of GR Smash compilations. However, I believe watching others would be a great way to improve my game. Could you guys list notable players for:
Ike
Ness
Mario
Dark Pit
Those are the characters that I currently main, Mario since I was a wee casual playing Melee and Brawl at 6 years old, with the other 3 being significantly more recent as I venture into the world of the competitive, Ike, Ness, and Mario being primary, and Dark Pit being more secondary. Also, there's definitely some fun to be had with the Ryu DLC (Ah, the nostalgia). Recommendations as to what resources I should use would be greatly appreciated, be that guides to tournament matches to players to control setups to ANYTHING.

Thank you,
Drewthedude64

 

[BlueX]

So I haven't been watching too many tournament matches in general, outside of GR Smash compilations. However, I believe watching others would be a great way to improve my game. Could you guys list notable players for:
Ike
Ness
Mario
Dark Pit
Those are the characters that I currently main, Mario since I was a wee casual playing Melee and Brawl at 6 years old, with the other 3 being significantly more recent as I venture into the world of the competitive, Ike, Ness, and Mario being primary, and Dark Pit being more secondary. Also, there's definitely some fun to be had with the Ryu DLC (Ah, the nostalgia). Recommendations as to what resources I should use would be greatly appreciated, be that guides to tournament matches to players to control setups to ANYTHING.

Thank you,
Drewthedude64

This is what i have found and please excuse me if these are not true.

Ryo
FOW
Ally
I could not find a notable player but here is some if you want to look.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Dark_Pit_professionals_(SSB4)

 

[Gunla]

The most notable Dark Pit would likely be Nairo who uses him on some occasions, but not as his actual main.

 

[Pazx]

So I haven't been watching too many tournament matches in general, outside of GR Smash compilations. However, I believe watching others would be a great way to improve my game. Could you guys list notable players for:
Ike
Ness
Mario
Dark Pit
Those are the characters that I currently main, Mario since I was a wee casual playing Melee and Brawl at 6 years old, with the other 3 being significantly more recent as I venture into the world of the competitive, Ike, Ness, and Mario being primary, and Dark Pit being more secondary. Also, there's definitely some fun to be had with the Ryu DLC (Ah, the nostalgia). Recommendations as to what resources I should use would be greatly appreciated, be that guides to tournament matches to players to control setups to ANYTHING.

Thank you,
Drewthedude64

Here are some players worth watching for each of these characters:

: Ryo, San, Ryuga
: FOW, Shaky, Nakat, Taranito (JP)
: ANTi, Ally, maybe Zenyou
: Sadly there are very very few Pit mains let alone Dark Pit mains, so I recommend watching Earth (undoubtedly the best Pit main in the world, lives in Japan and attends JP tourneys), Nairo (who actually use[d/s] Dark Pit) and possibly Pink Fresh who isn't quite the same caliber but still good.

You can also check out this thread for videos, and this thread to find out who the top players of each character are. The best place for in-depth sort of guides would be each character's individual sub forum, most of them will have guides, a directory, or a FAQ/Q&A thread stickied up the top.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is it just me, or do top-level players don't use Jab very much? This may very well be character-specific, so I guess I'll just reference Nairo (ZSS) & Shiny (Lucario). Their character's jab isn't great, but it isn't terrible, either. As a "get off!" move, it fulfills is purpose...so why don't I see them doing it when they have someone up-close? Like, I'd see them doing something like get out the way (whether it be roll or to jump away), instead. Just something that ocurred to me, looking at ZeRo's latest videos about Samus (normal, powersuit Samus).

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Is it just me, or do top-level players don't use Jab very much? This may very well be character-specific, so I guess I'll just reference Nairo (ZSS) & Shiny (Lucario). Their character's jab isn't great, but it isn't terrible, either. As a "get off!" move, it fulfills is purpose...so why don't I see them doing it when they have someone up-close? Like, I'd see them doing something like get out the way (whether it be roll or to jump away), instead. Just something that ocurred to me, looking at ZeRo's latest videos about Samus (normal, powersuit Samus).

1. ZSS' jab is amazing and 2. Nairo uses jab all the time.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

He doesn't use the whole Jab a lot of the times...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

He doesn't use the whole Jab a lot of the times...

Well THAT on the other hand is true. But that's the fun part isn't it, if ZSS pokes your shield, is she going to jab 2 or grab? It's basically a mixup. Using the whole jab combo only makes sense on hit, otherwise you leave yourself open. That's why you rarely ever see it finish.

 

[teluoborg]

It also helps a lot that ZSS has a Utilt that comes out on frame 3 (same speed as most characters' jabs) hits both behind and in front of her, has invincibility on her legs and gives her way more follow ups. It also does twice the damage of a full jab combo.

Is there any advice on how to read frame data? Or how to make your reaction time better? I want to be competitive, but I feel as if I'm hitting a ceiling. I watch a ton of tournament videos and stuff, but I feel like that's just giving me ideas for combos that I can't accurately do.

If you want to get a better reaction time I can suggest you to play rhtythm games. The rhythm paradise series on ds/wii are quite cool, or if you want there are free games on PC like Osu and Stepmania.

Now from someone who loves frame data here are my 2 cents : you don't need it. It can be helpful to understand a bit more your and your opponent's options, but ultimately you can acquire this understanding via experience.
There are 3 main competitive uses to frame data :
-to see how fast your attack comes out and if you can outspeed an opponent with it
-to see how long your attack lasts and if it can beat your opponent's defenses (a long lasting hitbox will beat dodges and weaving easily)
-to see how much cooldown your attack has and in what situation it is safe to throw it out.

 

[Lavani]

I'm not entirely sure how to phrase this, but...how do I...learn to play a character, I guess?

Rosalina and Greninja felt very natural to pick up. I looked at the characters, learned how their moves worked, learned how they moved around, and I was ready to go. They just made sense to me.

In contrast, I've put a ton of lab time and upwards of 130 matches into Meta Knight since 1.0.4. I know the range, frame data, and hitboxes on his attacks, I know my combos and combo percents, I both have uair strings down to muscle memory and can identify when to Shuttle Loop early to not drop the combo, I know the "autocancel" heights for tornado/cape, and I take notes on what tournament level Meta Knights do. But when I actually try playing him it's a trainwreck; I convert well when I get in and I feel like I handle disadvantage well, but neutral with the character feels so non-intuitive in terms of both movement and moveset. He doesn't move or attack like Rosalina or Greninja, and while I know how his kit works, it just doesn't flow for me. I figured I just needed to play more matches to get used to him, but I never really improved.

The same story applies to Lucario, and...essentially every character except Rosalina and Greninja. If a character doesn't click for me immediately, it doesn't feel like any amount of investment will change that. I'm expecting an answer like "play him more", but maybe there's something I'm not considering.

 

[Wintropy]

The biggest problem for me is that, I'm a very dumb person! When I do something, there's no cohesive thoughts behind my actions. Even when I type this message, I'm just doing the first thing that pops into my head, I have't planned my reply at all.

I may watch all these videos, read all the guides and practice for hours, but in the long run I still have no idea what I'm doing wrong, and even if I do, during the match I have no thought process beyond "I MUST land my attacks to win." My IQ is below 80, and is since Smash is all about mind games, that means I fall for the same tricks every time. Even after 5000 matches for example, possibly a lot more because of my erased/corrupted data, I still don't know what to do against someone playing as a typical Little Mac, or a flowchart Zero Suit Samus.

DI? Techs? Frame data? Patterns? Reading? My mind is too blank in a battle to even consider these things, even if I know them outside the battle. I'm not smart enough to understand the matchup details. My only thought is "Here is my attack? Attacks hit opponents." Nothing more, nothing less.

My grandfather has a saying: "Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is forever."

In other words, the fact that you want to get better and want to overcome your ignorance means you're not a stupid person. That's a very wise thing to do and you should understand that.

First off, don't second-guess yourself or undermine your own confidence. There's a distinct difference between knowing you're bad and need help, and just kicking yourself when you're down. To be good at something, you have to have a winning mentality. This is the foundation of achievement in any undertaking, be it sports, intellectual pursuits or video games. You have to know your weaknesses, but tell yourself that you can and will win. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but some day. You have to trust in your own ability. This is very difficult to do when you keep getting beaten, but it's something you need to work on before you work on getting better at the game. You have to be willing to be a good player before you can be good at playing.

Next, you need to fix your thought process when you play. This is extremely difficult if you're not used to it. I know it is, because I am the exact same as you. I have an abundance of theory outside of matches, but when I begin to press buttons, the theory dissipates and I get frustrated and don't know what to do. What I've found helps is making yourself aware of this and taking steps to correct it. You might want to do something simple first, just play a few CPU opponents and watch their movements before reacting to them. Understand how they move, their sound cues (for example, what grunt or expression the character when they make when they use a move, or the sound the move makes when it begins), the way they exploit you, the pace of their moves (in other words, do they hit you quickly and often, or do they go for big, heavy strikes?), that kind of thing. Keep doing this until you can do it consistently and have a good knowledge of how things go. Don't just try to get better by making your attacks connect, try to get an understanding of why things do what they do. Why does this move beat that move in a trade? Why doesn't this move connect when I think it does? In other words, before you try to win real matches, you need to experience the game and get a deeper conception of the way it operates. Next time you go to practice, instead of trying to beat your opponent and develop your combat skills, react to them, move with them, understand them and hone your technical and epistemological skills.

The best bit of advice I can give you is: don't worry. The best player I know is great because, while he confesses that he doesn't know much of the theory from study, he knows how to play by intuition. He knows how DI works, how frame data works, how matchups and how reading work, not because he studies it, but because he just plays the game and understands it from experience. It irritates me how he can be so good when he doesn't even study the game or seemingly put as much practice in as I do, but he has faith in his talent and doesn't get discouraged when he's beaten. He just picks up the controller and tries again. He gets beaten quite often, but he relishes the opportunity, because that means he's found somebody better than him and he can educate himself from the experience. It's only defeat if you don't think you benefited from it; otherwise it's a tiny victory in disguise!

If none of that helps, you can feel free to add me and we will play some time. I'm willing to help you get better if that's what you want to do, and I think it'd be more beneficial for both of us if I did that from experience.

 

[FlameChokinMonkey]

I'm a hopeless Ganondorf main. I'll play him until my wii u grows old and dies. I am pretty adept at Smash 4, I win about 40% of my matches. But that's not really good enough for me. I would like someone to help me get better at this game. Preferably another Ganondorf main, but I'll take anyone's help at this point. Playing Ganondorf, as you know, is stressful. But with his damage output, it can be quite rewarding. So I'd like some pointers, tips, or even some training in the game itself.
My NNID: Bahtmahn.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Hey man. Best place to post this probably would've been in the Ganondorf sub-forum. One thing I know helped me get better was start playing other characters. Even if you don't use them often, learning other characters will teach you different techniques and such which will carry over into your main. For example, if you play a little bit of Marth, you'll start to understand spacing. If you play Falcon, you'll learn about grabs, follow ups and reading airdodges (for those sweet, sweet knees). If you play Link you'll learn about projectile management, and so on. So definitely experiment with other characters, and the skills will transfer over, not to mention you'll start to develop incredible fundamentals. You should also get involved with a smash bros community near you. Find a local scene and play some friendlies.

 

[Daxter]

My grandfather has a saying: "Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is forever."

In other words, the fact that you want to get better and want to overcome your ignorance means you're not a stupid person. That's a very wise thing to do and you should understand that.

First off, don't second-guess yourself or undermine your own confidence. There's a distinct difference between knowing you're bad and need help, and just kicking yourself when you're down. To be good at something, you have to have a winning mentality. This is the foundation of achievement in any undertaking, be it sports, intellectual pursuits or video games. You have to know your weaknesses, but tell yourself that you can and will win. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but some day. You have to trust in your own ability. This is very difficult to do when you keep getting beaten, but it's something you need to work on before you work on getting better at the game. You have to be willing to be a good player before you can be good at playing.

Next, you need to fix your thought process when you play. This is extremely difficult if you're not used to it. I know it is, because I am the exact same as you. I have an abundance of theory outside of matches, but when I begin to press buttons, the theory dissipates and I get frustrated and don't know what to do. What I've found helps is making yourself aware of this and taking steps to correct it. You might want to do something simple first, just play a few CPU opponents and watch their movements before reacting to them. Understand how they move, their sound cues (for example, what grunt or expression the character when they make when they use a move, or the sound the move makes when it begins), the way they exploit you, the pace of their moves (in other words, do they hit you quickly and often, or do they go for big, heavy strikes?), that kind of thing. Keep doing this until you can do it consistently and have a good knowledge of how things go. Don't just try to get better by making your attacks connect, try to get an understanding of why things do what they do. Why does this move beat that move in a trade? Why doesn't this move connect when I think it does? In other words, before you try to win real matches, you need to experience the game and get a deeper conception of the way it operates. Next time you go to practice, instead of trying to beat your opponent and develop your combat skills, react to them, move with them, understand them and hone your technical and epistemological skills.

The best bit of advice I can give you is: don't worry. The best player I know is great because, while he confesses that he doesn't know much of the theory from study, he knows how to play by intuition. He knows how DI works, how frame data works, how matchups and how reading work, not because he studies it, but because he just plays the game and understands it from experience. It irritates me how he can be so good when he doesn't even study the game or seemingly put as much practice in as I do, but he has faith in his talent and doesn't get discouraged when he's beaten. He just picks up the controller and tries again. He gets beaten quite often, but he relishes the opportunity, because that means he's found somebody better than him and he can educate himself from the experience. It's only defeat if you don't think you benefited from it; otherwise it's a tiny victory in disguise!

If none of that helps, you can feel free to add me and we will play some time. I'm willing to help you get better if that's what you want to do, and I think it'd be more beneficial for both of us if I did that from experience.

I really appreciate the nice words and all this helpful advice, thank you. Looks like I'm not ready to give up yet; I'll just have to start over afresh and anew.

I tend to only use the 3DS version, after being chased out of the Wii U version by name tag bullies on FG. I'm happy to organise a 3DS set of games over Skype or suchlike?

 

[Wintropy]

I really appreciate the nice words and all this helpful advice, thank you. Looks like I'm not ready to give up yet; I'll just have to start over afresh and anew.

I tend to only use the 3DS version, after being chased out of the Wii U version by name tag bullies on FG. I'm happy to organise a 3DS set of games over Skype or suchlike?

You can PM me at your discretion, we can organise matches whenever you're good to go.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Alot of times when I battling I have alot of input errors and cant perfectly translate what I want to do onto the controller. How can I iron these out and get tid of input errors. How should I practice to get rid of this?

 

[Wintropy]

Alot of times when I battling I have alot of input errors and cant perfectly translate what I want to do onto the controller. How can I iron these out and get tid of input errors. How should I practice to get rid of this?

I have the same problem. What I find helps is labbing your inputs in different situations until you feel comfortable. Muscle memory is your friend. It's just a matter of repeating and refining the process; eventually you won't make the same mistakes every time, and then you will find your consistency getting better and more on-point.

 

[Daxter]

You can PM me at your discretion, we can organise matches whenever you're good to go.

I'm going to need to get my mind out of the gutter first though; first match I played was a Zelda who defeated me only using Neutral B, Side B and Smashes. Second match I played on FG was a Link-spammer. I was two-stocked, teabagged and had a replay shared on Share mode. I don't know why I can't beat such a basic opponent after thousands of matches, or how people on those montage videos can claim they're easy. To me they're utterly invincible, overpowered, cheap and impossible to even take one stock from. Every time I think "They rolled, I can hit them with this quick attack" or "They're projectile spamming, I'll just walk and powershield" it always fails and they win. So even in matches where I am thinking about my next move, it doesn't matter because my plans never work anyway.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm going to need to get my mind out of the gutter first though; first match I played was a Zelda who defeated me only using Neutral B, Side B and Smashes. Second match I played on FG was a Link-spammer. I was two-stocked, teabagged and had a replay shared on Share mode. I don't know why I can't beat such a basic opponent after thousands of matches, or how people on those montage videos can claim they're easy. To me they're utterly invincible, overpowered, cheap and impossible to even take one stock from. Every time I think "They rolled, I can hit them with this quick attack" or "They're projectile spamming, I'll just walk and powershield" it always fails and they win. So even in matches where I am thinking about my next move, it doesn't matter because my plans never work anyway.

Okay, first thing to do is stop playing with strangers. You won't get any feedback from them, and if they're just going to make you feel miserable, it's not worth your time. The reason I dropped out of For Glory is because I don't benefit from playing the game for its own sake or without a definite purpose. If you want to get better, the best way to do it is play somebody you know can help you, get beaten by them and then ask for feedback. Critique will help you get better if you take it on board. You need to know what's good, what's bad and what you can do to get better.

Getting beaten for its own sake is pointless, you're just beating your head against a brick wall. Getting beaten is only useful if you turn it into something constructive, and then it is a very valuable pursuit indeed.

 

[BlueX]

I'm going to need to get my mind out of the gutter first though; first match I played was a Zelda who defeated me only using Neutral B, Side B and Smashes. Second match I played on FG was a Link-spammer. I was two-stocked, teabagged and had a replay shared on Share mode. I don't know why I can't beat such a basic opponent after thousands of matches, or how people on those montage videos can claim they're easy. To me they're utterly invincible, overpowered, cheap and impossible to even take one stock from. Every time I think "They rolled, I can hit them with this quick attack" or "They're projectile spamming, I'll just walk and powershield" it always fails and they win. So even in matches where I am thinking about my next move, it doesn't matter because my plans never work anyway.

Don't play FG. You can develop really bad habits if you do.

 

[Kitzu]

Any Link tips?

 

[Wintropy]

Any Link tips?

You might want to check out these threads:

Link Q&A / FAQ thread

Link metagame thread

 

[thelustykhajiit]

any tips for samus?

 

[Nah]

any tips for samus?

Going to the Samus boards would be the best thing to do: http://smashboards.com/forums/samus.401/

"any tips for samus" is kinda vague too. Are you looking to pick her up or are you looking for advice on how to fight her? What's your general skill level so we don't tell you **** you already know?

 

[Empoleon_master]

I don't know if this is new or something but there's a tiny flash of lightening that happens when ZSS uses her down smash, the position seems to be random. There are 3 positions for the lightening to be in: From just above ZSS to the center of the laser blast, above the center of the laser blast, and from the opposite of the first position I mentioned. I have NO clue if the lightening strikes have any different hit boxes etc or if this is all just aesthetic. I asked in the new member forum and even a forum mod didn't know, if someone that could somehow look into the files or whatever for the laser blast could answer this I would be extremely happy to read it as I'm super curious about it.

Edit: I don't know if this is a new discovery or not but I've never heard of anything like it. When I was battling in Lumios City against AI as Shiek I got hit to the point where it makes the slamming sound as you're slightly prone for a few frames to the platform I was thrown into I then in the process of hitting the platform some how bounced to the one below on my right that wasn't that far minus height wise. Note that when I landed onto the lower platform I was still in my slammed/prone state I just bounced mid air slam? I really don't know how to word that better.

Second edit: Do Sheik's needles on the ground do anything after they hit an opponent? It seems kind of weird that they would just put that little detail in and have it do literally nothing with the game.

 

[Tayman]

I'm a hopeless Ganondorf main. I'll play him until my wii u grows old and dies. I am pretty adept at Smash 4, I win about 40% of my matches. But that's not really good enough for me. I would like someone to help me get better at this game. Preferably another Ganondorf main, but I'll take anyone's help at this point. Playing Ganondorf, as you know, is stressful. But with his damage output, it can be quite rewarding. So I'd like some pointers, tips, or even some training in the game itself.
My NNID: Bahtmahn.

i got a good tip, don't play ganondorf he is bad