Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[ATH_]

Heya, I'm between some secondaries here. I really like basically all of them, however I would like to know who covers my main the best and therefore would be a solid pick. This of course is likely different across all of them, however, I just would like other's thoughts.

I'm currently a Ness main. I went into Smash 4 expecting to main Lucina/Marth, however, with further playing of the game, I just don't enjoy the character as much as I did in Melee/Brawl/PM. After playing about 10h of Lucina, I started getting sick of being pushed around so roughly by projectiles and such. I ended up switching to Yoshi as my main, who was originally my secondary. I started getting ****-talked a lot, people saying eggs were OP and such. I understand that in a competitive community that is to be expected, but after putting around 25 or so hours into Yoshi, I was just sick of it. Also, Ness began giving me better results with more fun. Nobody ****-talks Ness around here because he's not as heavy in weight, and his PKT 'takes aim'. Anyway, in the past I've mained Marth/Sheik in Melee, with M2K as my idol for that game. In PM I like the same setup, but also am experimenting with other characters. In Brawl (which I originally played casually for a long time), I played lots of Toon Link and some other characters. I got into Melee, and have loved Marth ever since.

Okay, that aside, here's all the candidates for a secondary. To make it clear, I DO want a secondary, as I'm the kind of person who gets sick of the same matchups and characters over and over.

Yoshi: I have played Yoshi a lot and understand the character very well. I do not like the hate that goes against this character and the lack of true core combos.

Lucina/Marth: I have experience with said characters from past games, and I have fun with them. I just am not a fan of how different they are now.

Dark Pit/Pit: I've been playing these two lately, and have been enjoying them quite well. The issue is that I don't seem to adapt to them and their matchups well at all, but I do like them a lot.

Fox: Love his combo potential and speed. Core combos are great.

Pikachu: Same as fox, however, would take more training to get used to.

Mario: Same as previous two, just a bit awkward for me.

Sheik: Quick, good combos, exp from past games. Good lord the amount of hate towards this character though.

Toon Link: I still enjoy this character, but I'm not sure if I'm up for playing a proj spammy character like this. However, I do enjoy cleverly throwing bombs and the boomerang.

Anyway, that's about it. I'm also open to others giving me recommended characters based off of these. Thanks!

P.S. I posted here because of a mod telling another person in a different discussion that they should post a similar post here. So yee.

 

[mimgrim]

Ness doesn't really need a secondary but if you want to play it safe then Sheik is probably your best bet. She shouldn't have any terrible MUs, I'm starting to wonder if she even has a bad MU at all, and should serve a solid sub for just about any character.

Pit/Dark Pit could also work since they should have mostly evenish MUs with no MUs swinging heavily in the advantage or disadvantage.

 

[Hulez]

First of all, hello Smash Boards! I am completely new here and I love the information provided for Smash!

My reason for posting is (and sorry if this is in the wrong place) I've been a pretty casual player my entire life until Smash 4, where I really felt the need to learn how to fight competitively once my friends started beating me consistently. While I haven't been to any tournaments as of now, I plan on going to Final Battle in Panorama City this month to get a feel for the environment.

I've watched many many videos and followed many different players, listened to a lot of advice, and have put in a good amount of work into the characters I feel comfortable with, and I feel a noticeable improvement, given that I've beaten my friends who used to beat me, and give my better ones a good challenge.

My question is: how do you usually train? I don't like playing lvl 9 CPUs because I feel like I'd develop bad habits out of that, but I could be wrong? For Glory is another good option considering I'd play players of all levels, but sometimes the input lag can be quite bothersome (but not all the time). I want to go to tourny's too cuz I feel like I'd get my ass wooped there lol. This ties along with how to: practice new characters, combo practices, etc.

Any positive input would be great!

 

[Raijinken]

Try to play friendlies and meet some rivals while you're at the tournament. Especially if you can find people who live nearby (and thus you can either hang out to train or just play online with relatively low lag), building a network of nearby players helps a lot.

Of course, simply playing against your friends can help you develop your skills, but especially playing against the same people all the time, you have to be careful about developing habits. Just because they consistently fail to punish something doesn't mean everyone will. Still, especially while you have friends who can beat you regularly, you've got plenty more to learn from them.

 

[Hulez]

Try to play friendlies and meet some rivals while you're at the tournament. Especially if you can find people who live nearby (and thus you can either hang out to train or just play online with relatively low lag), building a network of nearby players helps a lot.

Of course, simply playing against your friends can help you develop your skills, but especially playing against the same people all the time, you have to be careful about developing habits. Just because they consistently fail to punish something doesn't mean everyone will. Still, especially while you have friends who can beat you regularly, you've got plenty more to learn from them.

Awesome, thank you very much!

 

[M15t3R E]

A few people to reply to...

Guys I have a question, I'm getting better but I have issues reading people.
How do I read people? That's my goal this week, I've stopped rolling so much, I've gotten better at punishing, but I have an issue with reading people.
Do I have to commentate the match in my head?
Do I have to actually SLOW DOWN and question my actions while still keeping the pace of the match going?
I feel like I'm better when I'm not watching MY character, but when I'm watching THEIR character, because I know my character in and out already.
I was playing matches with a fellow anon, and while I was approaching I started thinking "ok, he can either do this, this, or this, so be ready" and it seemed easy enough until the intensity got greater and I wasn't able to clearly cover my options because I was too busy going on "auto pilot" to protect myself.

Tl;dr: I need help reading people. How do you do it?

Make sure you are looking more at their character than your own. Look at your character through your peripheral and glance back at your character every few seconds or so. This is how high level players play. You should be able to pick out patterns and habits. No matter who your opponent is, there are certain follow-ups and approaches and whatnot that they like to do. Know your character well enough to respond to those appropriately. In truth, you'll learn better through experience than by asking around.

I'm frustrated because i cant land any attacks in the air while my opponents are playing the exact same characters, attacking with the exact same moves but there's are connecting. My main is Princess Peach and she is an aerial fighter. I didn't say i have to land every aerial but atm im not landing any not a single attack in the air is connecting. When im playing someone there is no such thing as a good game, outplaying the other person etc. Either im destroying someone or im getting destroyed myself. The part that upsets me is that these are basic fundamental things that everyone else seems to be able do.

Many people have offered you advice already for over a week now on this same topic. Please take our recommendations to heart and apply them. You have to learn how to read your opponent (see my above response in this post). Another problem could be that you are making yourself too predictable and you are getting read. Mix up how you approach constantly.

What would you recommend I learn first?

Get in training mode and apply those general techniques I outlined. If you are unfamiliar with their execution, don't worry, you can google those terms. Smashpedia or some threads on Smashboards will be able to tell you.

 

[Funtroon]

Is there a tutorial thread on how to read frame data of character in Smash games? I'd like to know what numbers in character frame data mean exactly as I get confused when reading the forums and read a post where someone goes: "this moves comes out at 4 frames" and whatnot.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Silokkes]

Hi

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this but how should I improve my neutral game? I'm always rushing in as Falcon and getting punished. What are some good general tips for neutral game?

 

[CrazyPerson]

Get in training mode and apply those general techniques I outlined. If you are unfamiliar with their execution, don't worry, you can google those terms. Smashpedia or some threads on Smashboards will be able to tell you.

I am thinking iwill pick 1 or 2 to try at a time... now that i expect some time to play.
I am thinking that I will start with short hop and pivots... along with trying to train my instincts to shield.

Does that sound like a good starting point?

Also another question. It sounds like most people think the wii remote nunchuck isn't viable for higher level play. Why is that?

How long do you suspect it will take me to relearn the GC controller?

 

[M15t3R E]

I am thinking iwill pick 1 or 2 to try at a time... now that i expect some time to play.
I am thinking that I will start with short hop and pivots... along with trying to train my instincts to shield.

Does that sound like a good starting point?

Also another question. It sounds like most people think the wii remote nunchuck isn't viable for higher level play. Why is that?

How long do you suspect it will take me to relearn the GC controller?

Those general techniques can be done with any character and are easy to learn- you shouldn't have any trouble. Yes, the GC controller is used almost exclusively in tournaments because it has more buttons and its buttons can be inputted very quickly no matter where your thumb is, especially the shoulder buttons which are crucial. It is very well designed.

Is there a tutorial thread on how to read frame data of character in Smash games? I'd like to know what numbers in character frame data mean exactly as I get confused when reading the forums and read a post where someone goes: "this moves comes out at 4 frames" and whatnot.
Thanks in advance.

Certain programs are used to slow down gameplay to frame by frame. 1 frame is 1/60th of a second in case you didn't know. In a game like smash bros, split seconds matter and so it can be important to know if one move is faster than another. Of course, if you input a move that comes out on frame 6 and your opponent inputs something that comes out on frame 7 but you inputted your move 2 frames later than your opponent his will come out first anyway. But then that's why reaction time is important.

 

[M15t3R E]

Accidental double post. Please delete.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

1. Play a lot of friendlies.
2. Gain a lot of knowledge on the game.
3. Playing with friends is good.
4. Acknowledge that sakurai has a bad design philosophy (this isn't really a step, more of a personal opinion)

 

[Funkermonster]

Does anybody know a good guide anywhere for people brand new to the game? For someone who is still learning the basic controls and actions? I gave the 3DS version and my old 3DS to my younger cousin as a Christmas present since I already own Wii U now, and I figured she could have more fun playing it than I would, and as a way for her to practice at home while I'm not around. She's still playin' around with the game and trying to find which characters she likes best, but she still has difficulty utilizing all of the basic actions and I'm not really good at explaining things myself. I know there are a ton of beginner guides for Smash around the internet, but most of the ones I've seen require somebody to at least get a grasp on the controls before you can actually use it, and I don't think it may be of much help for her. Specifically she's having a hard time doing these and has a few bad habits too:

• Cannot use all 5 aerials (she also uses Tap Jump, so that might have something to do with it)
• Has difficulty performing smash attacks consistently
• Doesn't seem to shield much
• Sloppy recovery techniques, tends to mess up the input and die sometimes
• Doesn't use her shield much

I was thinking of going to a tournament this Saturday (If I can go...) and bring her along with me if she can come, and I thought maybe the other players over there could play some friendlies with us and help me show her how fun it can really be and also help tutor her. Anyone think that's a fine idea? I will miss the ease of custom move unlocks though, may have to borrow it back from her for that..

EDIT: Also, is there a decent cheap controller worth checking? I'm getting sick of using my wii u gamepad..

 

[Smog Frog]

alright, i have a question

so far, i'm maining and i'm looking for a secondary

prospects include , , and

any advice on who i should choose?

 

[Shaya]

What type of characters are you worried about?

 

[Smog Frog]

**** sheik and **** diddy

 

[MapleWooD]

Whenever I try to perform a quick F-Tilt, I always end up with a Dash Attack or Smash Attack instead. What can I do to prevent this?

 

[V_x_I_D]

After thinking about what I've been doing wrong, I think I've found it.
There are 2 things going on in a match.
Mind games and reading.
I feel like I get too anxious and constantly run to try and get some hits in and I make myself vulnerable. Also while trying to read my opponent.
I don't think I'm playing enough mind games and being too defensive while not taking advantage of people's mistakes...
Does that make sense???

 

[M15t3R E]

After thinking about what I've been doing wrong, I think I've found it.
There are 2 things going on in a match.
Mind games and reading.
I feel like I get too anxious and constantly run to try and get some hits in and I make myself vulnerable. Also while trying to read my opponent.
I don't think I'm playing enough mind games and being too defensive while not taking advantage of people's mistakes...
Does that make sense???

This is confusing. On one hand you say you are anxious and just want to rush in and get some hits in and on the other hand you say you are being too defensive?

 

[V_x_I_D]

This is confusing. On one hand you say you are anxious and just want to rush in and get some hits in and on the other hand you say you are being too defensive?

Yeah, Like..... I can't explain it... I'm rushing in when I should be defensive and I'm being defensive when I should be punishing.

 

[M15t3R E]

Yeah, Like..... I can't explain it... I'm rushing in when I should be defensive and I'm being defensive when I should be punishing.

That just comes down to reading the opponent. Get your attacks in when they establish a pattern and you see an opening. Never rush a kill.

 

[Mrawesome48]

Many people have offered you advice already for over a week now on this same topic. Please take our recommendations to heart and apply them. You have to learn how to read your opponent (see my above response in this post). Another problem could be that you are making yourself too predictable and you are getting read. Mix up how you approach constantly.

I am trying nothing is working. I have tried literally everything and i cannot hit anyone in the air. And i have tried people's advice and watched guides and tutorials. You can ask anyone on smashboards that has played with me. That i never was able to hit them in the air. I cannot even hit up-smashes because they just air dodge out of that too.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Alright, two questions here. I'm not sure if there's somewhere else I should look for the answers.

1) I may be entering a 4v4 tournament. Any advice at all would be welcome considering I've barely played competitive singles, never competitive teams. Actually, even Doubles advice might be handy. And anything that can let me not accidentally kill my teammates.

2) Another "looking for a secondary" post.
Main:
Not sure which characters in particular that I'm trying to avoid because I don't have enough experience against the entire cast. I've noticed that Shulk seems to have the most trouble against projectile-users and agile characters. I find I have more issues with the projectile users than the quick ones. (Maybe I just need to be better at approaching with Jump and Speed.)
Possible secondaries:
- Despite her slowness and disliking her default moveset, I have a surprising amount of fun playing as her. Her Smashes are satisfying to hit with and love the dthrow combos.
- I never played competitively back then, but he was my main in Melee and Brawl because I loved his arrogance in the StarFox games. Guess I'm already halfway up the skill ladder by simply playing as him so much in the other versions.
- Honestly, who doesn't like Captain Falcon? He's quick and nimble when he needs to be, he can float through the air and climb up trees and I've seen some very impressive work done with him. I think I could have some fun learning him.
Honourable mentions to , , ,

I play bits of everyone so I could probably have most of them as a secondary. Those three are the ones currently on my mind though.

 

[M15t3R E]

I am trying nothing is working. I have tried literally everything and i cannot hit anyone in the air. And i have tried people's advice and watched guides and tutorials. You can ask anyone on smashboards that has played with me. That i never was able to hit them in the air. I cannot even hit up-smashes because they just air dodge out of that too.

I don't know why you struggle so much with this. Is your timing always off? Can you hit computers in the air?

 

[syfy]

It seems like a lot of people have come here and stated why they can't be good at competitive smash or why they aren't cut out to be a top level smasher.
Now, I don't claim to be a top player or even a "good" one, but I can hold my own in a match and I feel that I should able to give some advice.


(Competitive) Smash is a game about reading your opponent and responding to those readings. Know your character well, and practice the tech, but more importantly know your enemy. Observe their movements, behaviors and how they think. Every smasher has their own little gimmicks (some harder to read than others) that can be nullified. Players at the top level have made themselves hard to read and have memorized their character to the extent of having them become a natural extension of themselves. No one gets good overnight, and it could take you years to be able to read properly. Just keep playing against human opponents, watching vids of your character, reading up on said character, and maybe even dabble on For Glory a little, and you will improve. Most of the time, just by playing the game you are getting better, even if you can't tell. Keep up with the forum on your character, and learn new things, and you will get better.

Anyways, I hope that makes sense. I think a lot of the problem with new smashers these days is that they see top level pros and expect to get just as good as them by playing For Glory, or by playing against Level 9 computers. 90% of getting better in the Smash community is by playing against human players, the other 10% is training and reading/watching things about your character.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Have any of you tried not getting hit?

 

[Ind15]

I've heard from a lot of Smashers that buttons are the way to go when jumping. Personally, I've always used the control stick to jump and haven't really had a problem with it. However, I did hear that thinks such as aerials are easier to do if you have tap jump turned off. I guess my question is: is it worth switching off tap jump?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I've heard from a lot of Smashers that buttons are the way to go when jumping. Personally, I've always used the control stick to jump and haven't really had a problem with it. However, I did hear that thinks such as aerials are easier to do if you have tap jump turned off. I guess my question is: is it worth switching off tap jump?

Use the C stick to do aerials, or just develop your motor control. You should be using the C-stick for most aerials anyway as it allows you to do things like forward aerials while jumping backwards, back airs while moving forward, etc. If you turn off tap jump, it is more difficult to do Out of Shield moves as well. My Melee tech is pretty bad but even then I never accidentally jump.

 

[Mrawesome48]

I don't know why you struggle so much with this. Is your timing always off? Can you hit computers in the air?

.Neither does anyone else on this forum. i follow up just as fast as everyone else. Only difference is everyone else is able to hit thier aerials on me. When i get thrown it's literally guaranteed damage because my opponents always connect. I've tried everyone's suggestions and still nothing is working.

 

[Ind15]

.Neither does anyone else on this forum. i follow up just as fast as everyone else. Only difference is everyone else is able to hit thier aerials on me. When i get thrown it's literally guaranteed damage because my opponents always connect. I've tried everyone's suggestions and still nothing is working.

I'm no expert on the subject, but maybe try practicing aerials on low-level computers and working your way up? You could try winning a match only using aerials (I'm currently doing that with tilts to practice those), assuming you're up against low-level computers, of course. Then, eventually, go up against a friend and practice with them. It'll take time, no doubt, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

 

[Mrawesome48]

I'm no expert on the subject, but maybe try practicing aerials on low-level computers and working your way up? You could try winning a match only using aerials (I'm currently doing that with tilts to practice those), assuming you're up against low-level computers, of course. Then, eventually, go up against a friend and practice with them. It'll take time, no doubt, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

Low-level computers are useless to practice against because they will eat anything you throw at them. All my friends are beating me because they realized if they airdodge then i cant kill them. I have not won a single match against them.It's been almost 2 months since this game came out and i still can't hit a single person in the air.

 

[mimgrim]

If you turn off tap jump, it is more difficult to do Out of Shield moves as well. My Melee tech is pretty bad but even then I never accidentally jump.

You can solve the OoS thing by changing around controls and setting a shoulder button to jump.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

You can solve the OoS thing by changing around controls and setting a shoulder button to jump.

You see, this is the kind of crap that happens when you turn tap jump off. If you just play with it on, you can just play with the same control scheme consistently across all the mainstream Smash games. Maybe if you're just playing Smash 4, it's irrelevant, but it's really not that big of a leap to get to a point where you're not accidentally jumping or doing up-moves.

 

[mimgrim]

You see, this is the kind of crap that happens when you turn tap jump off. If you just play with it on, you can just play with the same control scheme consistently across all the mainstream Smash games. Maybe if you're just playing Smash 4, it's irrelevant, but it's really not that big of a leap to get to a point where you're not accidentally jumping or doing up-moves.

I don't really play Melee, or 64, outside of friendlies and am able to adjust to the default controls well enough after a couple of games. Brawl/Project/Smash 4 all have the same control scheme though because I found the most comfortable control scheme. The only 2 I try to play seriously are Project M and Smash 4, moreso Project M but that's mostly because I'm able to go to Project M stuff more frequently then the Smash 4 stuff, so it doesn't really affect me.

 

[Ind15]

Low-level computers are useless to practice against because they will eat anything you throw at them. All my friends are beating me because they realized if they airdodge then i cant kill them. I have not won a single match against them.It's been almost 2 months since this game came out and i still can't hit a single person in the air.

Like I said, I'm no Smash expert. Maybe you can post on the Peach Q&A for specific help with her aerials (I assume your main is Peach). Other than that, if you don't want to practice against your friends or low-level computers, try practicing against high-level computers. Hear me out here: high-level computers spam air dodges when falling, which I know is what you don't want, but the computers air dodge at a consistent pace as they fall, making it easy to hit them between air dodges. Try recognizing the pattern and going in for the attack, since, like I said before, high-level computers don't really have a strategy when air dodging, they just spam it at a predictable rate.

 

[Mrawesome48]

Like I said, I'm no Smash expert. Maybe you can post on the Peach Q&A for specific help with her aerials (I assume your main is Peach). Other than that, if you don't want to practice against your friends or low-level computers, try practicing against high-level computers. Hear me out here: high-level computers spam air dodges when falling, which I know is what you don't want, but the computers air dodge at a consistent pace as they fall, making it easy to hit them between air dodges. Try recognizing the pattern and going in for the attack, since, like I said before, high-level computers don't really have a strategy when air dodging, they just spam it at a predictable rate.

I actually have a post in the peach section. This isn't a not being able to hit with peach it's not being to able to land aerials with any character. I spend a lot of time practicing learn different chars but it's useless atm because i cant hit anyone

 

[Shaya]

Bait the air dodge (move towards them, jump towards them, etc), and then wait a little bit before attacking. There are some true combos in this game, but in a lot of situations air dodges will beat out sequential hits if the person times/buffers them correctly, but if you're using a low lag move or just wait out the 1/3rd or so of a second that they're invincible, you can hit them in their lag with practically anything you want. As a result people will tend to take the hit, try to reactively air dodge instead or attack, which you can likely cover with you picking things that cover most options.

 

[KimKarsmashian]

This is the stupidest and most basic question of all time... how can you reliably do tilts? I've been playing since 64 and had little to no idea tilts even existed, so I have no muscle memory associated with them. I either go too soft on the control stick and do a neutral or go too hard and go into a smash. I can perform them in an isolated environment e.g. training, but I can't even begin to incorporate them against computer opponents, let alone humans. The moment I start moving they become Smash attacks 85% of the time, neutrals 14%, and maybe 1% I'll do some kind of tilt (not necessarily the one I was aiming for, but baby steps). It's kind of embarrassing that I've been playing since I was little and only last year had an idea of what tilts were, so I'd like to correct this egregious oversight in my Smash repertoire.

Please note that I play relatively casually, so any talk of ATs will unfortunately be lost on me.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

This is the stupidest and most basic question of all time... how can you reliably do tilts? I've been playing since 64 and had little to no idea tilts even existed, so I have no muscle memory associated with them. I either go too soft on the control stick and do a neutral or go too hard and go into a smash. I can perform them in an isolated environment e.g. training, but I can't even begin to incorporate them against computer opponents, let alone humans. The moment I start moving they become Smash attacks 85% of the time, neutrals 14%, and maybe 1% I'll do some kind of tilt (not necessarily the one I was aiming for, but baby steps). It's kind of embarrassing that I've been playing since I was little and only last year had an idea of what tilts were, so I'd like to correct this egregious oversight in my Smash repertoire.

Please note that I play relatively casually, so any talk of ATs will unfortunately be lost on me.

This is all muscle memory so you will have to find that middle ground between tap speeds and doing that repeatedly until your brain can associate tilts with the hand movement automatically. There's essentially no other way.

As for doing tilts outside of training mode, you should probably just try having a tilts-only match when you get the associated muscle memory down. If you can do so in an isolated environment (I.E. training mode) but not in a real match, then one of a few things is happening: You're either A) Under psyche stress, B) Going on auto-pilot, or C) Not experienced enough yet to comfortably play at a faster pace.

 

[resilientcrab]

Pretty sure this is the right place for this and I just had a question about tournament's. I've been looking into doing a tournament because, I heard it is a great way to learn and to find people that play the game in the community around you. I think I would agree with this because it sounds about right. But i am sorta new too the game I have been playing smash for a bout two months now and was looking at entering this tournament at this gaming lounge by my house but I don't know if beginners are allowed at tournaments. That's really it just looking to get better at my favorite game and find others who play it.