Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Gearitz]

How do I change my mindset I like to play smash 4 and while I don't take it quite as seriously as melee I still enjoy it to a competitive level so how do I get out of my melee habits when playing smash 4?

 

[RudyTutti]

When ever I play my friend, I feel like I can't beat him. We usually play friendlies and we've even met in bracket a couple of times. He does win a majority of the time (by a small margin 48:52) but I just feel like I can't beat him and this causes me to be frustrated and make not even wanna try against him. I try to let it go, but I just can't ya know? Any help with this?

 

[ToxoT]

I've developed a stigma against using rolls and I feel like it's hindering my defensive capabilities. My main uses his projectiles as a defensive wall and I feel like I'm forgetting the basics of defense that every other character has with shield and spotdodges and the like. When is a good time to be defensive? I'm messing up a lot lately because I've forgotten these things and can't counter my opponents who understand it better than me.

 

[Megamang]

When ever I play my friend, I feel like I can't beat him. We usually play friendlies and we've even met in bracket a couple of times. He does win a majority of the time (by a small margin 48:52) but I just feel like I can't beat him and this causes me to be frustrated and make not even wanna try against him. I try to let it go, but I just can't ya know? Any help with this?

Try and remember that you do pretty well against him. Especially think of past games you've won convincingly, and try to imitate those. You have the right tools, its just a matter of employing them correctly! After all, you are better off than most people who have the problem of ' how in the hell do I beat this guy?'. If you find yourself getting nervous, separate yourself away from the players, and just focus on the game and his character, how your character interacts with him, and predicting him as a character. If you find yourself getting nervous, remember its just a game, you can win, and he has the same access to the same tools as anyone else playing that character.

When I met my friend in bracket, I pulled out a secondary I knew he had never seen me play. It made in an easy sweep, but I had to practice that secondary specifically for the MU, without practicing against my main partner. This is a possibility but it was a lot of work, I mostly did it to be hype

 

[RudyTutti]

Try and remember that you do pretty well against him. Especially think of past games you've won convincingly, and try to imitate those. You have the right tools, its just a matter of employing them correctly! After all, you are better off than most people who have the problem of ' how in the hell do I beat this guy?'. If you find yourself getting nervous, separate yourself away from the players, and just focus on the game and his character, how your character interacts with him, and predicting him as a character. If you find yourself getting nervous, remember its just a game, you can win, and he has the same access to the same tools as anyone else playing that character.

When I met my friend in bracket, I pulled out a secondary I knew he had never seen me play. It made in an easy sweep, but I had to practice that secondary specifically for the MU, without practicing against my main partner. This is a possibility but it was a lot of work, I mostly did it to be hype

Dude this is actually very helpful, especially the separate yourself part! Thanks a ton!

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So how do you stop yourself from going into autopilot? This seems to be a bit of an issue with newer players and players who strugfle with things like adhd/add. I still have a bit of an issue with it even in real life

A friend of mine told me to try commentating on what I'm doing in my head and that helped a ton but I'm wondering if there are more effective ways?

 

[DaDavid]

The biggest thing I found that helped me was to stop looking so much at my character and instead to look at the opponent. If I'm looking at them, I'm more aware of their reactions as opposed to my expectations, which makes me be more present.

 

[GHOST4700]

How does one mix up their spacing? I already know the jist of spacing I just have no idea how you could mix it up...

 

[iVoltage]

It's just something you have to make an effort to stop. I had a bad problem in most games, but it helps me to sort of narrate the moves in my head even small choices. You are then thinking about the certain game by default, so you can plan moves and options.

If that makes sense

 

[Pixel_]

Look at the game in a different way and set up goals rather than throwing out moves. Learning the Neutral will help with this since it gives you a goal other than hitting the opponent.
Basically, think about the game in terms of stage control and stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

Make a conscious decision about everything you do, and focus on what your opponent does and try to followup on their actions and possibly exploit an opening once you find it. I can relate to just throwing out hitboxes and hoping it covers me, it's still something I struggle with considering I'm relatively new to competitive Smash myself (4 is the first Smash game I've taken seriously), but I hope that what I and others in this thread have said helped. Maybe getting a sparring partner either in person or on Wi-Fi (try to have a good connection for the latter) to help point out your mistakes and bad habits could also help!

 

[ItsASquid]

A little list of things I've identified as what I might be doing wrong. Please be patient with me on this!

- Ironically I am very impatient; my only thought in battle is "Can I hit them now?" Players who sit in shield and wait for me to approach have a field day with me. However if the opposite is true and they approach me, I fare much better.

- Spacing and punishment keeps going very wrong; when I try to, say use Wii Fit Trainer's B-Air to push someone away, they always run up and grab me even when I get it just right. If they do the same to me, they roll away or attack before I can punish.

- I can't settle on a character besides Robin; I get depressed at losing on for glory so easily and have dropped almost the entire roster. The only characters I haven't played as are Sheik, Zero Suit Samus and Rosaluma, on account that I want to use an underdog character; winning as them feels like I didn't earn it.

- I often find myself in situations where a shield or an attack doesn't happen for me, but in the exact same situation it works for my opponent. Common thought: "But I was holding shield!"

- I'm a very anxious person, so taunts, teabags and mindgames seriously put me on tilt very quickly. That means I air dodge a lot out of panic and rush in more the less I hit the opponent, giving them more chances to chain me. I've tried to "train" this out of me with professional help but it is simply who I am. I also am a perfectionist - it's how I was raised - and only accept victory on for glory, simply because of the number of people who say how easy it is, despite how much I struggle at it. (EDIT: I'm a long way from most people on Anther's so I can never find any games due to distance-lag. For Glory is easier for me.)

- Ground movements never work for me so I end up jumping and short hopping too much. I end up skidding all over the place rather than, say, Fox-Trotting or Dash Dancing. I know I'm using the 3DS but other people can do it, even with a Wii Remote D-Pad!

- I tend to stare blankly when I'm being attacked, so I never remember to tech etc. I don't autopilot when I'm planning how to hit someone; for example if someone is approaching me I think "They might counter now" as a random example. But I do get frustrated when all my plans fail/attacks miss, so that by the time I'm being juggled by someone, I can't think of a way to escape, I just want to hit them again. This is especially bad if I'm trying to land on the ground or return to stage; I get meteor smashed almost every time.

 

[Acton]

What can I do to get better at following up and getting the kill?

I'm a greninja main, and I've attended locals in my area. I do alright and I've been told I'm good player, and that I'm good in the neutral and playing footsies. That's greninja's b&b so I do alright with that. I do alright in mixing up when I approach and reading what other players will do in the neutral. For whatever reason though I'm never good at getting the follow up. Because of that I haven't been able to win many matches. The matches usually start out pretty well and I feel like I've got a good handle on things, only to have to struggle with getting the kill, that's not to say I don't get bodied at all because I do. The matches that I get bodied in don't frustrate me, the one's I feel like I'm better in the neutral but can't get the follow up do though.

I think it's probably something to do with my play style focusing too much on reacting and not enough on reading the other player and anticipating what they're going to do. Most of the time they DI in such a way where I wiff the follow up, or I just don't time the follow up correctly because of the characters specific horizontal air movement. I know greninja is all about the 50/50s and I never seem to choose the right option. . . .

I've played countless matches where I'm ahead significantly in the % because I do really well in the neutral, and I've done even better recently because I don't approach when I'm ahead and force them to approach with shurikens, but end up losing because I just don't get the kill. It's not even just about the kill, a lot of the time I reset back to neutral when I could get a follow up and just don't, it's not even just about the kill.

I also get punished hard recovering back to he stage at late percent when I'm recovering high from the left or right. I know I can't just anticipate when I need to air dodge, because if I react it'll be to late but for some reason I just have this mental block that I don't want to air dodge out of reaction. It's tough because that same habit actually works well for me at low % because I don't air dodge out of habit.

I haven't played in 3 weeks because of this "wall" I've hit. I'll consistently have matches that I do really well in the neutral, just to not get the follow up and then I get killed recovering off the side because of the situation I mentioned above.

It's as simple as killing the other opponent but not getting killed yourself. I feel like my skills in the neutral are meaningless at this point, it's really depressing. . . .

I know for more specific tips I'd need to post footage of my actual game play, but I just want some general advice at this point since getting on anthers ladder and playing every day started feeling like a chore and killed my desire to play. I want to play again, but I need some direction and focus before I start playing again. I'm sure others have been in the same boat as me at some point. . . .

 

[Hugs4Prez]

because i'm switching over to a controller that is more up to par with what you should use for smash.

For SIX YEARS i've used JUST the wiimote... And it's really fun playing that way for me because I'm just so used to it and it's like I don't even have to worry about controls. It's almost as if the characters' movesets are an extension of ME. Except of course, I never even attempted grabs or certain tilts because of the limitations that controller brings..

The only other controller I have right now is a gamepad, and today I've been fighting through the struggles of learning this completely foreign device (for me, the gamecube controller is foreign for smash). I started off playing with my Wiimote and it was so much fun since everything felt so natural... But I have to get used to the other non solo wiimote controller since they'd help me out in the long run. Right now man it is definitely not easy. I'm more fighting myself than my opponent...

The reason i'm doing this though is because I want to get to at least a semi competitive level.... Anyone else have any experiences with switching from the wiimote after using it for so long? This is seriously extremely hard.

I'm a brand new melee player and I was wondering what methods have you guys used to make L-Cancelling a habit

 

[C0rvus]

I'm a brand new melee player and I was wondering what methods have you guys used to make L-Cancelling a habit

This is the Smash 4 board. You may want to field this question to the Melee board.
That said, I do play Melee as well, and in terms of making L-Cancelling a habit, it takes repetition and time. Focus on doing it every time during friendlies or in training mode. Eventually you won't have to think about it nearly as much, or at all. It will take time, though. It's usually not an overnight thing. That's how most skills become habits. Especially in Melee's case, when you practice, you're not trying to win as much as you are trying to learn and apply new concepts.

Another thing for later is that when you hit a shield or a character, hitlag will make your l-cancels have come out a bit later than usual. A good way to practice that is by playing against the Ice Climbers lol.

Also, I know some Samus stuff, so feel free to ask me about her and I'll tell you what I know. Conversely, head over to the Melee boards for more info from better players.

 

[Dream Cancel]

What can I do to get better at following up and getting the kill?

I'm a greninja main, and I've attended locals in my area. I do alright and I've been told I'm good player, and that I'm good in the neutral and playing footsies. That's greninja's b&b so I do alright with that. I do alright in mixing up when I approach and reading what other players will do in the neutral. For whatever reason though I'm never good at getting the follow up. Because of that I haven't been able to win many matches. The matches usually start out pretty well and I feel like I've got a good handle on things, only to have to struggle with getting the kill, that's not to say I don't get bodied at all because I do. The matches that I get bodied in don't frustrate me, the one's I feel like I'm better in the neutral but can't get the follow up do though.

I think it's probably something to do with my play style focusing too much on reacting and not enough on reading the other player and anticipating what they're going to do. Most of the time they DI in such a way where I wiff the follow up, or I just don't time the follow up correctly because of the characters specific horizontal air movement. I know greninja is all about the 50/50s and I never seem to choose the right option. . . .

I've played countless matches where I'm ahead significantly in the % because I do really well in the neutral, and I've done even better recently because I don't approach when I'm ahead and force them to approach with shurikens, but end up losing because I just don't get the kill. It's not even just about the kill, a lot of the time I reset back to neutral when I could get a follow up and just don't, it's not even just about the kill.

I also get punished hard recovering back to he stage at late percent when I'm recovering high from the left or right. I know I can't just anticipate when I need to air dodge, because if I react it'll be to late but for some reason I just have this mental block that I don't want to air dodge out of reaction. It's tough because that same habit actually works well for me at low % because I don't air dodge out of habit.

I haven't played in 3 weeks because of this "wall" I've hit. I'll consistently have matches that I do really well in the neutral, just to not get the follow up and then I get killed recovering off the side because of the situation I mentioned above.

It's as simple as killing the other opponent but not getting killed yourself. I feel like my skills in the neutral are meaningless at this point, it's really depressing. . . .

I know for more specific tips I'd need to post footage of my actual game play, but I just want some general advice at this point since getting on anthers ladder and playing every day started feeling like a chore and killed my desire to play. I want to play again, but I need some direction and focus before I start playing again. I'm sure others have been in the same boat as me at some point. . . .

First you should ask the Greninja boards what they typically use to close out stocks. You may need to be reminded of all the kill options you have. That said, I'm not a Greninja player at all and you may have all the tools you need. The same goes for your follow-ups, Greninja has tools unique to him so you should learn when each is most appropriate. (If you're missing 50/50's, just settle for good stage control)

Besides that, general tips would be to focus on your ledge get-up coverage and advantaged stage control. Both of these situations have you in the drivers' seat and your opponent is forced into a mix-up situation. Really pay attention to the options they choose while their back is against the wall and punish accordingly.

Another method is to change your playstyle mid-match. Bait & Punish, Aggressive, Footsies, Defensive, Evasive, Shield-happy, Slow & Controlled, etc. (I made some of these up, but you get the point) Different styles will evoke different reactions, and you can see what works and what doesn't work.

As for air dodge habits, I recommend gaining MU knowledge against common characters. Why? So you can know what they are looking for, and potentially any traps or positional advantages they are looking for. This way you know what to be wary of, and, more importantly, when to air dodge. A classic example is Sheik's D-throw 50/50. Or perhaps you're playing against a C. Falcon looking to knee you, etc. Did you know that anything 3 frames or faster can escape out of Mario's D-air between the second to last and last hits? If information isn't your thing, you could try learning the ropes of a few characters you don't play; the basics can go a long way in MU knowledge.

Lastly, don't underrate the importance of your neutral. Even if you can't kill them, you can continue to outplay them in Neutral past 150% to secure the kill with a weaker move. Take advantage of any possible fear and push your neutral game further.

Good luck! (I'm an info junkie so that's how I play the game, everyone is different)

 

[NoahZark]

What can I do to get better at following up and getting the kill?

I'm a greninja main, and I've atteded locals in my area. I do alright and I've been told I'm good player, and that I'm good in the neutral and playing footsies. That's greninja's b&b so I do alright with that. I do alright in mixing up when I approach and reading what other players will do in the neutral. For whatever reason though I'm never good at getting the follow up. Because of that I haven't been able to win many matches. The matches usually start out pretty well and I feel like I've got a good handle on things, only to have to struggle with getting the kill, that's not to say I don't get bodied at all because I do. The matches that I get bodied in don't frustrate me, the one's I feel like I'm better in the neutral but can't get the follow up do though.

I think it's probably something to do with my play style focusing too much on reacting and not enough on reading the other player and anticipating what they're going to do. Most of the time they DI in such a way where I wiff the follow up, or I just don't time the follow up correctly because of the characters specific horizontal air movement. I know greninja is all about the 50/50s and I never seem to choose the right option. . . .

I've played countless matches where I'm ahead significantly in the % because I do really well in the neutral, and I've done even better recently because I don't approach when I'm ahead and force them to approach with shurikens, but end up losing because I just don't get the kill. It's not even just about the kill, a lot of the time I reset back to neutral when I could get a follow up and just don't, it's not even just about the kill.

I also get punished hard recovering back to he stage at late percent when I'm recovering high from the left or right. I know I can't just anticipate when I need to air dodge, because if I react it'll be to late but for some reason I just have this mental block that I don't want to air dodge out of reaction. It's tough because that same habit actually works well for me at low % because I don't air dodge out of habit.

I haven't played in 3 weeks because of this "wall" I've hit. I'll consistently have matches that I do really well in the neutral, just to not get the follow up and then I get killed recovering off the side because of the situation I mentioned above.

It's as simple as killing the other opponent but not getting killed yourself. I feel like my skills in the neutral are meaningless at this point, it's really depressing. . . .

I know for more specific tips I'd need to post footage of my actual game play, but I just want some general advice at this point since getting on anthers ladder and playing every day started feeling like a chore and killed my desire to play. I want to play again, but I need some direction and focus before I start playing again. I'm sure others have been in the same boat as me at some point. . . .

While I'm no Greninja main and I'm definitely not an expert on this, there is a pretty strong Greninja main in my local scene which I get to see play a lot, and I've kinda been studying his habits. It looks like he goes for a lot of d-tilts, both before and after kill percents. The ones before kill percents seem to kind of be a test to see how his opponents react, so that at kill percents he has a good idea of what his opponents will do, and then often finishes up the stock with a up-smash or fair. On another note, you could try to look up some high level Greninja matches on YouTube and try to emulate their kill set-ups and whatnot.

 

[Pixel_]

ItsASquid Nobody seems to have answered you yet, so here's what I've got.

- Ironically I am very impatient; my only thought in battle is "Can I hit them now?" Players who sit in shield and wait for me to approach have a field day with me. However if the opposite is true and they approach me, I fare much better.

Probably the best way to deal with this is to force the opponent to approach, though I don't know how to do that with your characters. With Yoshi, people say to force the opponent to approach by basically spamming eggs, but I guess that doesn't translate to Robin.
Honestly, I guess keeping a level head is the best here. Think instead of following impulses, your only thought in battle shouldn't be about when you can hit the opponent (and I think this link is related lol). Thinking about the game in terms of the Neutral might help you become more patient because your goal is different. idk though the Neutral is my solution for everything.

- Spacing and punishment keeps going very wrong; when I try to, say use Wii Fit Trainer's B-Air to push someone away, they always run up and grab me even when I get it just right. If they do the same to me, they roll away or attack before I can punish.

Check your character's forum if the move is actually safe, first of all. Still, the problem could be what you do after hitting their shield.
If your actions after you hit their shield is predictable, then they can read that and punish you. This could be solved by either crossing up the opponent (e.g. if you hit the opponent's shield on the left, move over to the right while still in the air so that you're now behind the opponent) or by tomahawking (instead of doing an aerial, fastfall onto the ground and grab the opponent, it's a good mixup and is made easier by Robin's command grab, Nosferatu). Oh, also by not being predictable after hitting their shield. You can check your replays to see this or just by being very self conscious.

- I can't settle on a character besides Robin; I get depressed at losing on for glory so easily and have dropped almost the entire roster. The only characters I haven't played as are Sheik, Zero Suit Samus and Rosaluma, on account that I want to use an underdog character; winning as them feels like I didn't earn it.

Check this thread if you want advice for choosing your main.
Alternatively, if you really want to main another character, stick with them for a whole week straight. Obviously you can't get good at a character in a day, so force yourself to play a character longer even if you lose.
Also, most of the top tiers are actually hard, especially the ones you mentioned. You have to really put in time for each of them, and you can ask anybody who mains them. That's just my opinion, though.

- I often find myself in situations where a shield or an attack doesn't happen for me, but in the exact same situation it works for my opponent. Common thought: "But I was holding shield!"

Like I said for the other situation, replays might help. Shielding probably isn't the only problem here. It might be because you predictably roll out of shield, react to certain things in a predictable way; it's kinda hard to tell without replays (don't give me the replays though, I'm not sure if I can critique well lol. Try one of the video threads, either on your character board or on the general video thread).

- I'm a very anxious person, so taunts, teabags and mindgames seriously put me on tilt very quickly.

There was this one thread that this reminds me of, but I forgot where it is.

Personally I think there's no point in playing a competitive game if you're not thinking straight. Being frustrated will make you lose battles, and that'll make you more frustrated, and it's basically a vicious circle.
Go do something else if you're not really feeling it! For Fun usually lives up to its name, and you can go visit it if you still want to play Smash, but without the frustration. Otherwise, play other games. Take a nap or something, I don't know what normal people do.

Basically, I can't help you do well when you're frustrated. If this problem is still there even if you're being levelheaded, I don't actually know how to help (even though I think that's the actual problem here ).

I also am a perfectionist - it's how I was raised - and only accept victory on for glory, simply because of the number of people who say how easy it is, despite how much I struggle at it.

aaaagh I was sure there was a video on this but I'll have to settle with saying it in my own words.

Losing makes you better! You want to be perfect, you do it by losing. Lose over and over again, just make sure you learn from each and every single one of those losses.
If you weren't losing, it would be pretty hard to know where to improve, because you won anyway.
Change how you think about losing, basically.

- Ground movements never work for me so I end up jumping and short hopping too much. I end up skidding all over the place rather than, say, Fox-Trotting or Dash Dancing. I know I'm using the 3DS but other people can do it, even with a Wii Remote D-Pad!

That's exactly the same as me, but as long as your character focuses on aerials (and imo Robin has very good aerials), this shouldn't be much of a problem. If you were using Little Mac or Captain Falcon, then this would be a problem.

- I tend to stare blankly when I'm being attacked, so I never remember to tech etc. I don't autopilot when I'm planning how to hit someone; for example if someone is approaching me I think "They might counter now" as a random example. But I do get frustrated when all my plans fail/attacks miss, so that by the time I'm being juggled by someone, I can't think of a way to escape, I just want to hit them again. This is especially bad if I'm trying to land on the ground or return to stage; I get meteor smashed almost every time.

If this is happening while you're thinking straight, I don't know how to help. I'm pretty sure I thought similarly at some point, and the only explanation I have for my new way of thinking is
THE NEUTRAL

I hope my post wasn't a complete waste of time.
EDIT: omg my post is gigantic T_T

 

[realmwars]

So I recently got finished at a college Smash 4 tournament (I ended up winning 3-2 using and ) and my last opponent was a and I ended up getting a good f-smash read on her when she decided to do Burning After Kick towards the ledge. However I still struggle at figuring out when is the best moment to approach her without triggering witch time.
I get the witch time read sometimes, but a lot of times if the witch time doesn't go off the bat within does. Any tips on dealing with Bayonaisse's down B?

 

[Delzethin]

What is the most effective way for me to lab? I have all of these techniques and strings I need to learn, but no idea of how to other than going into Training and trying to get it to work enough times in a row. How should I handle something I can't figure out the timing of? How do I practice something that only occurs if an opponent does something specific when I have one else to use as a guinea pig?

This feeling that I just don't have the means to practice the things I need to improve is...demotivating, to say the least.

 

[ItsASquid]

ItsASquid Nobody seems to have answered you yet, so here's what I've got.


Probably the best way to deal with this is to force the opponent to approach, though I don't know how to do that with your characters. With Yoshi, people say to force the opponent to approach by basically spamming eggs, but I guess that doesn't translate to Robin.
Honestly, I guess keeping a level head is the best here. Think instead of following impulses, your only thought in battle shouldn't be about when you can hit the opponent (and I think this link is related lol). Thinking about the game in terms of the Neutral might help you become more patient because your goal is different. idk though the Neutral is my solution for everything.


Check your character's forum if the move is actually safe, first of all. Still, the problem could be what you do after hitting their shield.
If your actions after you hit their shield is predictable, then they can read that and punish you. This could be solved by either crossing up the opponent (e.g. if you hit the opponent's shield on the left, move over to the right while still in the air so that you're now behind the opponent) or by tomahawking (instead of doing an aerial, fastfall onto the ground and grab the opponent, it's a good mixup and is made easier by Robin's command grab, Nosferatu). Oh, also by not being predictable after hitting their shield. You can check your replays to see this or just by being very self conscious.


Check this thread if you want advice for choosing your main.
Alternatively, if you really want to main another character, stick with them for a whole week straight. Obviously you can't get good at a character in a day, so force yourself to play a character longer even if you lose.
Also, most of the top tiers are actually hard, especially the ones you mentioned. You have to really put in time for each of them, and you can ask anybody who mains them. That's just my opinion, though.



Like I said for the other situation, replays might help. Shielding probably isn't the only problem here. It might be because you predictably roll out of shield, react to certain things in a predictable way; it's kinda hard to tell without replays (don't give me the replays though, I'm not sure if I can critique well lol. Try one of the video threads, either on your character board or on the general video thread).



There was this one thread that this reminds me of, but I forgot where it is.

Personally I think there's no point in playing a competitive game if you're not thinking straight. Being frustrated will make you lose battles, and that'll make you more frustrated, and it's basically a vicious circle.
Go do something else if you're not really feeling it! For Fun usually lives up to its name, and you can go visit it if you still want to play Smash, but without the frustration. Otherwise, play other games. Take a nap or something, I don't know what normal people do.

Basically, I can't help you do well when you're frustrated. If this problem is still there even if you're being levelheaded, I don't actually know how to help (even though I think that's the actual problem here ).


aaaagh I was sure there was a video on this but I'll have to settle with saying it in my own words.

Losing makes you better! You want to be perfect, you do it by losing. Lose over and over again, just make sure you learn from each and every single one of those losses.
If you weren't losing, it would be pretty hard to know where to improve, because you won anyway.
Change how you think about losing, basically.



That's exactly the same as me, but as long as your character focuses on aerials (and imo Robin has very good aerials), this shouldn't be much of a problem. If you were using Little Mac or Captain Falcon, then this would be a problem.



If this is happening while you're thinking straight, I don't know how to help. I'm pretty sure I thought similarly at some point, and the only explanation I have for my new way of thinking is
THE NEUTRAL

I hope my post wasn't a complete waste of time.
EDIT: omg my post is gigantic T_T

Wonderful advice thank you. Especially about the air game aspect; I was so fixated on staying grounded I forgot how amazing Robin's air game is, and resumed bouncing around like a tactician-Tigger

 

[realmwars]

What is the most effective way for me to lab? I have all of these techniques and strings I need to learn, but no idea of how to other than going into Training and trying to get it to work enough times in a row. How should I handle something I can't figure out the timing of? How do I practice something that only occurs if an opponent does something specific when I have one else to use as a guinea pig?

This feeling that I just don't have the means to practice the things I need to improve is...demotivating, to say the least.

Sounds to me you need some kind of sparring partner, somone you can reliably go to and learn new things from them. And not justa person you can beat everytime because let's face it, whats to learn if you keep winning? Find someone either equal or slightly better so you have something to work on. Get used to their playstyle while developing your own. I have someone irl who everytime we do Ness dittos I always learn something new about the character and it betters my performance. Same might happen for you.

 

[Dream Cancel]

So I recently got finished at a college Smash 4 tournament (I ended up winning 3-2 using and ) and my last opponent was a and I ended up getting a good f-smash read on her when she decided to do Burning After Kick towards the ledge. However I still struggle at figuring out when is the best moment to approach her without triggering witch time.
I get the witch time read sometimes, but a lot of times if the witch time doesn't go off the bat within does. Any tips on dealing with Bayonaisse's down B?

Witch Time is her trump card, and you need to respect it. However, it functions similarly to any other counter. So, naturally grabs will be a great tool against it. Kill and/or combo throws are very useful. Ness is great in that regard due to highly damaging throws/throw combos and the strongest kill throw to boot.

Since Witch Time is similar to any other counter, it requires a hitbox to function. Also, it doesn't matter the strength of the hitbox that is thrown at her. So, the moral of the story is to not throw out too many unnecessary moves, since more moves = more opportunites to Witch Time. (Also watch out for her WT on your recovery!)

Mid to Long range projectiles are also great tools to nullify Witch Time. Since Bayo has no built-in move to handle projectiles specifically, heavy zoning is a viable strategy to never have to deal with it. Keep in mind that her Bullet Climax (neutral B?) and Bullet Arts (mostly D-tilt) are options for her to combat this playstyle. Also, her long-reaching aerials, Aerial Side Special, Dash Attack, and Grounded Side Special are good zone breakers so be wary of that.

I suggest visiting the Bayonetta character boards for further info. Good luck!

 

[realmwars]

Witch Time is her trump card, and you need to respect it. However, it functions similarly to any other counter. So, naturally grabs will be a great tool against it. Kill and/or combo throws are very useful. Ness is great in that regard due to highly damaging throws/throw combos and the strongest kill throw to boot.

Since Witch Time is similar to any other counter, it requires a hitbox to function. Also, it doesn't matter the strength of the hitbox that is thrown at her. So, the moral of the story is to not throw out too many unnecessary moves, since more moves = more opportunites to Witch Time. (Also watch out for her WT on your recovery!)

Mid to Long range projectiles are also great tools to nullify Witch Time. Since Bayo has no built-in move to handle projectiles specifically, heavy zoning is a viable strategy to never have to deal with it. Keep in mind that her Bullet Climax (neutral B?) and Bullet Arts (mostly D-tilt) are options for her to combat this playstyle. Also, her long-reaching aerials, Aerial Side Special, Dash Attack, and Grounded Side Special are good zone breakers so be wary of that.

I suggest visiting the Bayonetta character boards for further info. Good luck!

Thanks for the tips. I faced a Bayonnaise earlier today and also noticed her dash attack has enough end lag topunishwith a grab so both Paly and Ness have options that seem usable.

 

[Megamang]

Don't get used to that, Bayonetta really shouldn't be dash attacking much.

I would say practice punishing Heel Slide. You know if she is going to kick based on whether she is shooting (will kick) or not (won't kick). Additionally, a well timed charged smash can make a bayonetta really regret using Witch Time in clutch situations too frequently.

 

[RudyTutti]

So I need help with reading. I feel like I don't do it well. Like I was told that it's kind of like picking up on habits that people have, but how do I know why they're doing is a habit and how do I keep that information for later?

Also, how do you prevent tilt?

 

[realmwars]

Don't get used to that, Bayonetta really shouldn't be dash attacking much.

I would say practice punishing Heel Slide. You know if she is going to kick based on whether she is shooting (will kick) or not (won't kick). Additionally, a well timed charged smash can make a bayonetta really regret using Witch Time in clutch situations too frequently.

Curious, would Palutena's d-tilt be enough to stop the heel slide? I know Ness's pk fire can but I just want to know of that works as an option. I've tried her dash attack but even with the sheild frames it doesn't seem to overwhelm.

 

[Delzethin]

Sounds to me you need some kind of sparring partner, somone you can reliably go to and learn new things from them. And not justa person you can beat everytime because let's face it, whats to learn if you keep winning? Find someone either equal or slightly better so you have something to work on. Get used to their playstyle while developing your own. I have someone irl who everytime we do Ness dittos I always learn something new about the character and it betters my performance. Same might happen for you.

And what do you suggest if my means to finding one offline is basically being denied right now? I'm dealing with a lot of on-and-off pain and currently don't have much money to work with.

 

[Stryker95]

Curious, would Palutena's d-tilt be enough to stop the heel slide? I know Ness's pk fire can but I just want to know of that works as an option. I've tried her dash attack but even with the sheild frames it doesn't seem to overwhelm.

Not sure, maybe you should check the Palutena boards, that would be your best option for character specific questions.

 

[realmwars]

And what do you suggest if my means to finding one offline is basically being denied right now? I'm dealing with a lot of on-and-off pain and currently don't have much money to work with.

Then find someone online, preferably with a good connection so you don't have to deal with a lot of lag. I'm sure someone on here would be more than happy to offer you some 1v1 sessions. Ask them if they can assist you in what you'd like to pick up or learn the MU with. You're at a really good place to get assistance from.

 

[RudyTutti]

And what do you suggest if my means to finding one offline is basically being denied right now? I'm dealing with a lot of on-and-off pain and currently don't have much money to work with.

Use Anther's Ladder

 

[KirbyFan20]

Is SDI or regular DI more reliable/faster for getting out of multi-hit jabs like Game and Watch's, Little Mac's, etc.?

 

[Nah]

Is SDI or regular DI more reliable/faster for getting out of multi-hit jabs like Game and Watch's, Little Mac's, etc.?

SDI is usually the better choice for escaping multi hit moves

 

[realmwars]

So I'm REALLY conflicted. iStudying is really making me want to main . Just watching his amphibious shinobi in action is so inspiring and it shows the kind of characters I LOVE to play in Smash. Tricky mix-ups to confuse my opponent, sweet combo links, and striking my opponent when they least expect it (along with reading/countering their approach options) Greninja just hit ALL the right spots for me.

However, my problem is I already have 3 mains. and honestly I feel even having 3 mains is pushing it a bit but it's just so I still have an extra option incase two characters aren't going to help with the match-up. I really want to get good with Greninja, but I already adore all three of my current mains and I really don't want to drop any of them. Especially Palutena, someone who I've been using since the 3DS. Yet at the same time, I REALLY want to learn another character. I have no idea what I should do. Should I keep learning Greninja and actually try to make him one of my go to options? Or should I just keep him a secondary and focus on the characters I've already worked with to be my top 3 best?

And if I AM to start getting good with Greninja, what should I start practicing first?

 

[Angross]

Hey guys, I main cloud and was wondering what a good character to pocket would be fore the yoshi/cloud MU. Cloud MU isn't as important as the Yoshi MU.

Thank you,
Niche

I also main cloud, and i even mained yoshi, so i think i can help. the problem with maining both of these is that they have some similar shortcomings, ex: recovery. I dropped yoshi bc my cloud was better and came back to zss and i find that these two cover each others shortcomings well. But if you're looking for how to beat yoshi, DO NOT GET ZONED by eggs, while not rushing in crazily, bc the yoshi will just nair. if you're above yoshi, GET THE **** OUTTA THERE, he will up air you. basically dont get zoned, punish egg roll, and predict egg throw

 

[Xandercosm]

Is SDI or regular DI more reliable/faster for getting out of multi-hit jabs like Game and Watch's, Little Mac's, etc.?

Pretty much, SDI up for almost any multi-hit jab. You can mix it up by SDIing up and right or left as well to choose where you land. It's really useful because you can land behind the opponent and get a free smash attack. It's also somewhat useful for Bayo's Up-Special and Side-Special.

 

[Saltix]

Okay. I'm a visual learner and I think my Smash 4 fundamentals are a little off. What are the things that should be at the CORE of your S4 gameplay?

I'm looking for things like: resetting the neutral ASAP after being hit/juggled, and not always counter attacking. Not fishing for kills. Basically, I want to identify what LOSES you games.

 

[Megamang]

Watching high level play, I find what loses people games is different for each person. Besides the obvious, taking stocks before you lose yours, nothing is really universal. Of course, there are common problems.

I'd say the path to improvement in this department is two fold. First, improve your observation skills by watching high level play, and try and say what is losing someone the game. So, watch game 1, and say, X loses when Y happens. Then, watching the rest of the set, see how true your observations are.

Turn your observation on yourself. Save replays where you felt you played your best and still lost, and then analyze what really happened. Post the replays on your respective character board, and see if people's analysis matches up with yours.

And make sure they are replays where you played your best. There is a mental trap some players fall into, where they make a lot of mistakes but think because they know them, it must be something beneath that. Don't say 'well, I whiff grabs when I try for them when I need them, I get edgeguarded, blah blah blah, but it has to be something bigger!' Tighten your play in ways you recognize, if it wasn't your best and your best isn't improving, then don't look for something when the answer is right there!

 

[WackySpinachAgate]

I'd just like some input on this one issue in having. So I'm always gonna keep as a secondary because I love playing him so much but I'm not going to main him because of the high risk little reward results I've been getting with him at tournament. So two other characters I've been playing a lot are and . While with Cloud I get great results at tournaments I sometimes feel that I coulda done better than what I got. And with Ryu I have so much fun and I've practiced the guy since he came out but the issue I've been having with him is that if I make 1 or 2 mistakes with him in terms of inputs than that could cost me a game. I haven't solo'd Ryu at many tournaments and the ones I did I placed lower than I did with cloud but people recognized my Ryu more. I feel like my potential with Ryu is higher and that I could improve a lot more with him, but with Cloud I feel like I can keep going further in results.

TL;DR: who do I main Cloud or Ryu?

 

[Stryker95]

I'd just like some input on this one issue in having. So I'm always gonna keep as a secondary because I love playing him so much but I'm not going to main him because of the high risk little reward results I've been getting with him at tournament. So two other characters I've been playing a lot are and . While with Cloud I get great results at tournaments I sometimes feel that I coulda done better than what I got. And with Ryu I have so much fun and I've practiced the guy since he came out but the issue I've been having with him is that if I make 1 or 2 mistakes with him in terms of inputs than that could cost me a game. I haven't solo'd Ryu at many tournaments and the ones I did I placed lower than I did with cloud but people recognized my Ryu more. I feel like my potential with Ryu is higher and that I could improve a lot more with him, but with Cloud I feel like I can keep going further in results.

TL;DR: who do I main Cloud or Ryu?

It seems like you should main Ryu, his difficulty curve is ridiculous but worth it if you keep at it to a point where you do not mis-input. Cloud is much more simple so the results you are getting may be short term, especially i people recognize you for your Ryu. It is somewhat like Fox in Melee, it is hard to be good with Fox, but worth it if you can get there.