Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Jcsaenz1]

None of the four characters you mentioned interest me and none of the low tiers in this game interest me because their options are too limited.

Then just try random dabbing at characters or at least try them once. It will take a bit of discipline to do so, but that's how I got to pick up Zelda and despite being the worst character in the game, her combos off down-throw and her Up-B always keep me hooked on playing with her. Sure, part of playing this game is to win, but there are times in which you'll try random characters for fun and end up hooking with one "for fun" character, it's not wrong to have "to win" and "to have fun" mindsets in a game.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Alright. How about ROB? His damage output isn't the best, but he has throw-based kill mixups, two zoning projectiles, and an unconventional recovery.

If you're looking for an overpowered character, I don't think there are any that fit that bill. Even Sheik has to work for her kills.

 

[Cool Trainer Ace]

I feel mildly stupid for asking this question, but what are the main differences between mains ans so boundaries? One explanation I've heard is that mains are the ones you play most often and she secondaries are the ones you're good with, but don't use as often.

Would that be correct?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Specifically, the purpose of a secondary is to counter matchups that aren't in your matchup's favor. I'm just gonna use hypothetical for a second. Let say you use Cloud, and the Cloud-ZSS matchup is 70-30 her favor. You realize that say, Fox is a 55-45 in his favor. You pick up Fox to use as a counter for ZSS, and Fox is now your secondary.

Honestly though, that's the technical definition. Most people use it in the way you're using it.

 

[Cool Trainer Ace]

Specifically, the purpose of a secondary is to counter matchups that aren't in your matchup's favor. I'm just gonna use hypothetical for a second. Let say you use Cloud, and the Cloud-ZSS matchup is 70-30 her favor. You realize that say, Fox is a 55-45 in his favor. You pick up Fox to use as a counter for ZSS, and Fox is now your secondary.

Honestly though, that's the technical definition. Most people use it in the way you're using it.

Alright, thanks. And ZSS wins the Cloud matchup? Coulda fooled me, I do unusually well versus ZSS. Then again, I do play on For Glory a lot, so they could have not been too good.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Stop dwelling on the past. The patches happened, Diddy was nerfed, deal with it. If you don't enjoy the game in its present state, then stop playing. If you do enjoy the game in its current state, then keep playing. If you really don't like Diddy anymore, find a new main.

I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is. Were you looking for a hugbox in which everyone would tell you that you're being perfectly reasonable and give suggestions? Well sorry, but that isn't my style. It's on you to find a way to enjoy the game. And if you can't find that way? Then don't play.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Alright, thanks. And ZSS wins the Cloud matchup? Coulda fooled me, I do unusually well versus ZSS. Then again, I do play on For Glory a lot, so they could have not been too good.

Do you know what the word "hypothetical" means?

 

[C0rvus]

Tbh if you don't like the game anymore, there is no reason to force yourself to play it. Old Diddy and Yoshi are gone. Consider finding new characters or sticking it out. You remind me a bit of myself. I tend to overthink things and get really picky for no reason, and it makes me miserable. My advice? Stop worrying so much about it. Play the game or don't. Do you go to tournaments? On game day, you're forced to pick characters. And you will.

Read up, watch up, see what top players are doing with your characters. Find out if that's what you want to do. See if you can bring your own style to the table. Or watch other characters, and see if that's what you want instead. Or quit if you're not having fun. Fun is essential to staying power.

PS: It's never too late to get into the game. It's been said a million times because it's true. Just don't expect to be a top player any time soon.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Alright, thanks. And ZSS wins the Cloud matchup? Coulda fooled me, I do unusually well versus ZSS. Then again, I do play on For Glory a lot, so they could have not been too good.

I was just making up numbers. I actually have no idea what the matchup would be for any of those characters, and honestly, we'll need more time to get more objective matchup numbers. For a lot of people, secondaries cover characters they can't deal with as a person, not a character. Like if some random Smasher, let's call them Jessie, plays Sheik, and absolutely despises the DK matchup. Yes, Sheik beats DK by all means, but they're just incapable of winning that matchup, so they might pick up some other character they feel better facing DK with.

 

[Cool Trainer Ace]

I was just making up numbers. I actually have no idea what the matchup would be for any of those characters, and honestly, we'll need more time to get more objective matchup numbers. For a lot of people, secondaries cover characters they can't deal with as a person, not a character. Like if some random Smasher, let's call them Jessie, plays Sheik, and absolutely despises the DK matchup. Yes, Sheik beats DK by all means, but they're just incapable of winning that matchup, so they might pick up some other character they feel better facing DK with.

Well, fake numbers or not, I got what you were saying, so thanks.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

You need to really watch some of Zinoto's play with Diddy Kong if you think the nerfs were that overkill. He is still an incredible character with scary tools that can completely shut out some approach and options. The only one that gives him consistent trouble is Ally's Mario, but otherwise the character's toolkit is really solid, and his kill options are very much still present. Most definitely solo main viable, though he has a couple of matchups that wouldn't hurt to have a secondary for.

 

[Stryker95]

I'm a competitive Link main, but I have trouble against a few matchups. Or more specifically, one type of matchup. The main characters I do badly against are Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, and maybe Pikachu. Speedy grabby characters.

I am a decent player, as I actually win or at least put up a good fight against plenty of other characters, including other high tiers. For instance, at a recent tournament, I barely lost 2-1 against a Cloud player, but got wrecked 2-0 by a Fox player.

So I'm looking for advice regarding good secondaries I could pick up to counter my bad matchups, as well as advice on how to get better at playing said bad matchups using Link.

Should I even pick up a secondary? Should I just learn better skills and tactics to fight the matchups? Thoughts guys?

Fellow Link main here. It is really up to you. Some of us pick up a secondary like MK while others try to go it alone with Link. It is easier to just pick up a secondary, or play a high tier in the first place, but it is up to you, I prefer to solo main because I like the character and don't expect to get to a point where I need to win.
For new tips and tricks see here. There is alot of knowledge there, but be careful, the Link boards can be rough to new blood.

 

[Electrix]

Today I can barely win. I've lost to CPUs, died to spammy Toon Links on For Glory, and only beat a Little Mac on Anther's by a lucky fsmash. He went Mario and destroyed me. And my confidence is starting to vanish.
It feels like every time I play a CPU, I have a better time than playing online. I know they're bad for competitive play, and humans are more adaptive, but I rarely have happy memories online. It's mostly lag and getting spiked, even if I do everything in my power not to get hit.
I don't care about the word "adapt." I care about having fun, but also getting better. And when I rarely get to play people IRL, it's hard for me to do that.
I just wonder if it's worth playing if I rarely have fun online. I've tried to get better, but I hardly know what character I should be using right now. It doesn't really make a difference; I continue to lose.
And it's not like I'm awful, but I have days where I absolutely suck, and it's ruining my experience with this game. What should I do?

 

[Megamang]

Id say dont let your losses bother you so much, and think of them as a learning experience. This should make it less frustrating.

 

[W.A.C.]

Then just try random dabbing at characters or at least try them once. It will take a bit of discipline to do so, but that's how I got to pick up Zelda and despite being the worst character in the game, her combos off down-throw and her Up-B always keep me hooked on playing with her. Sure, part of playing this game is to win, but there are times in which you'll try random characters for fun and end up hooking with one "for fun" character, it's not wrong to have "to win" and "to have fun" mindsets in a game.

I've experimented with a ton of characters and about the only character I can think of worth dabbling in that I haven't is Mii Gunner, but I hate the restrictions placed on that character in competitive play, so he's not worth messing with.

Alright. How about ROB? His damage output isn't the best, but he has throw-based kill mixups, two zoning projectiles, and an unconventional recovery.

If you're looking for an overpowered character, I don't think there are any that fit that bill. Even Sheik has to work for her kills.

I'm not a big fan of ROB. I don't like his default up special and most of his aerials don't come out any earlier than frame 17, which is a deal breaker for me.

Stop dwelling on the past. The patches happened, Diddy was nerfed, deal with it. If you don't enjoy the game in its present state, then stop playing. If you do enjoy the game in its current state, then keep playing. If you really don't like Diddy anymore, find a new main.

I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is. Were you looking for a hugbox in which everyone would tell you that you're being perfectly reasonable and give suggestions? Well sorry, but that isn't my style. It's on you to find a way to enjoy the game. And if you can't find that way? Then don't play.

While I still enjoy Diddy Kong, my enjoyment for that character isn't comparable to his 1.04 and 1.06 versions. I'm not going to stop playing the game because Smash 4 is sadly my best option for competitively relevant Smash games. I don't love playing any character in this game because I have so many issues with whatever character I try to play. It's insanely frustrating.

Tbh if you don't like the game anymore, there is no reason to force yourself to play it. Old Diddy and Yoshi are gone. Consider finding new characters or sticking it out. You remind me a bit of myself. I tend to overthink things and get really picky for no reason, and it makes me miserable. My advice? Stop worrying so much about it. Play the game or don't. Do you go to tournaments? On game day, you're forced to pick characters. And you will.

Read up, watch up, see what top players are doing with your characters. Find out if that's what you want to do. See if you can bring your own style to the table. Or watch other characters, and see if that's what you want instead. Or quit if you're not having fun. Fun is essential to staying power.

PS: It's never too late to get into the game. It's been said a million times because it's true. Just don't expect to be a top player any time soon.

I go to tournaments regularly and I'm highly motivated to improve as a player, but the fact that I don't love playing as ANY of the characters in the game and HATE the rage mechanic makes me wish I was playing a different Smash game.

You need to really watch some of Zinoto's play with Diddy Kong if you think the nerfs were that overkill. He is still an incredible character with scary tools that can completely shut out some approach and options. The only one that gives him consistent trouble is Ally's Mario, but otherwise the character's toolkit is really solid, and his kill options are very much still present. Most definitely solo main viable, though he has a couple of matchups that wouldn't hurt to have a secondary for.

Diddy Kong is still a great character, but he is NOT an incredible character. I do watch Zinoto and he has a very solid Diddy Kong.

 

[Moshilam]

I haven't really found a good way to practice. For Glory isn't really an option because I only fight C-Falcons and DLC characters.

 

[krosswerks]

Go to local tournaments! You'll never be able to compete against tourney-caliber players if you aren't exposing yourself to their tactics.

By yourself, I also suggest taking a look at tournament footage for your characters, and try to replicate cool plays that you see in training mode. This isn't perfect, because the training mode in Smash is pretty weak and some situations you simply can't duplicate; even so, by doing this you're not only practicing your technical capabilities, but you are training yourself to be observant of effective plays and favorable situations to your characters (which I would argue is more important).

And if you feel like turning your brain off for a while and just playing some Smash... do tech drills. Sometimes I like to go into training and just perfect pivot over and over. Even if you're doing this while listening to music in the background or something, constant drilling of your weak skills helps hone the muscle memory.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Find a scene in your area, it will really make you think and help you grow as a player. Even if you don't enter a tourney, you can still play friendlies with anyone else there which is a great way to practice.

Another thing to consider is the theory. See I don't have a Wii U, so I don't get as much practice as a lot of other people I see at tournaments, however, I'm still ranked in my region. I find that focusing on the theory is very important and has helped me out immensely. If you can, record matches of yourself and rewatch them and study them. (If you can't do this, do your best to remember how your match went). Figure out which situations you excel at and which situations generally give you a hard time. Then sit down and think about it. Really think about how you can preform better in given situations. Maybe you have a hard time approaching? Try some new things.

Now theory is a major part of sm4sh, but it's only as good as your execution. The other arguably good way to practice is to go into training mode and lab. Figure out some combos, which attacks can lead into what. Find a 50/50 or an airdodge trap. Work on your pivot grabs, ledge trumps, and perfect pivots. There's a ton you can do.

 

[Moshilam]

Go to local tournaments! You'll never be able to compete against tourney-caliber players if you aren't exposing yourself to their tactics.

By yourself, I also suggest taking a look at tournament footage for your characters, and try to replicate cool plays that you see in training mode. This isn't perfect, because the training mode in Smash is pretty weak and some situations you simply can't duplicate; even so, by doing this you're not only practicing your technical capabilities, but you are training yourself to be observant of effective plays and favorable situations to your characters (which I would argue is more important).

And if you feel like turning your brain off for a while and just playing some Smash... do tech drills. Sometimes I like to go into training and just perfect pivot over and over. Even if you're doing this while listening to music in the background or something, constant drilling of your weak skills helps hone the muscle memory.

Find a scene in your area, it will really make you think and help you grow as a player. Even if you don't enter a tourney, you can still play friendlies with anyone else there which is a great way to practice.

Another thing to consider is the theory. See I don't have a Wii U, so I don't get as much practice as a lot of other people I see at tournaments, however, I'm still ranked in my region. I find that focusing on the theory is very important and has helped me out immensely. If you can, record matches of yourself and rewatch them and study them. (If you can't do this, do your best to remember how your match went). Figure out which situations you excel at and which situations generally give you a hard time. Then sit down and think about it. Really think about how you can preform better in given situations. Maybe you have a hard time approaching? Try some new things.

Now theory is a major part of sm4sh, but it's only as good as your execution. The other arguably good way to practice is to go into training mode and lab. Figure out some combos, which attacks can lead into what. Find a 50/50 or an airdodge trap. Work on your pivot grabs, ledge trumps, and perfect pivots. There's a ton you can do.

There are no scenes in my area, but ill try your other ideas. Thanls!

 

[GhostUrsa]

If offline opponents aren't available, then use Anther's Ladder and other smashboard players to help get more MU experience. Offline is best, but if it is between no practice and Online then these are 2 places to go to make sure you are getting serious competition that not only has good connection speeds but want to improve/help you improve.

I can relate, as the local scene where I am is fairly small and favors college student hours over anything else. Makes it hard for me to get offline practice that isn't a family member or AI. Unless you are near the top already and need your reflexes to stay on point (lag does make some tactics for/against you possible that isn't offline), the MU experience found Online is a godsend for those of us starting out or needing more practical data to help theorycraft/improve our game.

 

[Electrix]

EVERY TIME i shield they grab
EVERY TIME i grab they attack
EVERY TIME i attack they shield

HELP

 

[Stryker95]

EVERY TIME i shield they grab
EVERY TIME i grab they attack
EVERY TIME i attack they shield

HELP

For one, learn what is safe on shield and use that to space. As Pit, you at least have a disjointed hitbox. Other than that, get experience and keep working. It is not like they can see into the future or have frame perfect reflexes. Over time you will see they do not win EVERY situation, it just seems that way. The only thing we can really say is keep working, there are alot of people who have been playing competitive Smash longer than you.

 

[C0rvus]

EVERY TIME i shield they grab
EVERY TIME i grab they attack
EVERY TIME i attack they shield

HELP

Smash is like playing rock-paper-scissors in that way. The game begins when you know your opponent is expecting your move, but you expect that he expects that you expect it. Mindgames, son.

 

[W.A.C.]

I find it irritating my original thread got merged into a thread where people are complaining about getting grabbed when they shield. :|

 

[Electrix]

I find it irritating my original thread got merged into a thread where people are complaining about getting grabbed when they shield. :|

Who's complaining about getting grabbed?

Thank you guys for your help. I'm new to Smash 4 (although not the series) and there's always that struggle of adapting to new mechanics. Practice makes perfect, I guess; my Pit in Brawl was more solid than Snake.

 

[Shaya]

I find it irritating my original thread got merged into a thread where people are complaining about getting grabbed when they shield. :|

I don't think it was me this time, but I'm sorry nevertheless.
You probably have a lot of the answers already in your mind and are hoping we can give you the one that clicks the most.

If you can't enjoy this game fully, then you need to find out what you enjoy and stick to that. Competitiveness isn't everything.
Find a character you enjoy; don't ride sorrow from buffs/nerfs.

 

[Minijote]

Hi,

I am new to this forum full of informations. I registered so I could ask about "training program". I have always wanted to become better at fighting games but everytime I launch the game I find myself wandering into training mode with no idea about what to do or what goals I should set to follow my progression.

Any tips? How do pro smash players practice when alone with no sparring budies? (Yes I am aware playing versus humans is important but I have a bad connection and work does not give me enough spare time to meet other players - I understand I will never be a great player, I just want to have fun learning the game and becomming decent at it).

Ps : is there a french community that you know of?

Regards,

Olivier

 

[BlueX]

Hi,

I am new to this forum full of informations. I registered so I could ask about "training program". I have always wanted to become better at fighting games but everytime I launch the game I find myself wandering into training mode with no idea about what to do or what goals I should set to follow my progression.

Any tips? How do pro smash players practice when alone with no sparring budies? (Yes I am aware playing versus humans is important but I have a bad connection and work does not give me enough spare time to meet other players - I understand I will never be a great player, I just want to have fun learning the game and becomming decent at it).

Ps : is there a french community that you know of?

Regards,

Olivier

Mostly you can practice your combos but it could be best to practice with a real player... What you can do is lab things. What is means is testing methods for practicing DI, frame skip, etc. Test methods for anything that is important to the game. Fox made a very good guide on this, i highly recommend you to read.

http://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/#post-20869131

 

[Minijote]

Mostly you can practice your combos but it could be best to practice with a real player... What you can do is lab things. What is means is testing methods for practicing DI, frame skip, etc. Test methods for anything that is important to the game. Fox made a very good guide on this, i highly recommend you to read.

http://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/#post-20869131

Thank you for your help. I was a bit afraid by this thread when I first read it but I'll push myself to do so if it can help me understand the game.
Do you think spending time on movement is important? Footsies have always been important to fighting games but it seems to me that Smash serie is particularly focus on such knowledge since you have to control the field.

 

[Stryker95]

Thank you for your help. I was a bit afraid by this thread when I first read it but I'll push myself to do so if it can help me understand the game.
Do you think spending time on movement is important? Footsies have always been important to fighting games but it seems to me that Smash serie is particularly focus on such knowledge since you have to control the field.

Yes, movement in any Smash game is very important. Figure out what movement options you have and then practice moving around a stage efficiently.

 

[C0rvus]

One of the first things you should learn is how to make your character do what you want them to do without thinking about it too much. This will mostly come with time, but in training mode you can get familiar with movement speed, jump heights, throwing out moves efficiently, from different spacings, recovery angles and mixups, etc. Get used to that and maybe some basic follow ups and you're more or less good to start playing other people.

 

[W.A.C.]

Who's complaining about getting grabbed?

EVERY TIME i shield they grab

Like there's nothing wrong with your post, but it was just frustrating my thread got merged into this thread when I have such a huge problem with this game.

I don't think it was me this time, but I'm sorry nevertheless.
You probably have a lot of the answers already in your mind and are hoping we can give you the one that clicks the most.

If you can't enjoy this game fully, then you need to find out what you enjoy and stick to that. Competitiveness isn't everything.
Find a character you enjoy; don't ride sorrow from buffs/nerfs.

"Your thread I feel like I entered competitive Smash at the worst possible time. was merged into Game Play Advice and General Discussion. Reason: redundancy (remember we keep new threads at a minimum). "

I like playing this game competitively, but patches killed my love for this game as I don't love playing as ANY of the characters. I enjoy Brawl, Project M 3.02, and older versions of Smash 4 more than this game, but neither Brawl or Project M have any real future, plus I'm not a fan of later versions of Project M. It's super frustrating that the only competitively relevant games out right now are Smash 64, Melee, and Smash 4, which was one of the biggest points of my thread.

I've tried experimenting with other characters, but no-one fits me really well in this game. I'm an grab-centric player that's very campy with projectiles that likes fast characters. Unlike past Smash games, most characters in this game just have such an insane amount of lag to their aerials and/or projectiles that I have a hard time having fun with them. That was one of the reasons why I mained Diddy Kong, but they nerfed his up air so much that I don't like that move anymore and I never cared for his nair, so basically I only like 3/5ths of his aerials now and you can't even throw out dairs very often. His 1.04 and 1.0.6 up air was my favorite aerial in the game, but nerfing its range, frame data, base knockback, and growth knockback in 1.0.8 took out all the fun out of that move. That character used to frequently mix up fair and uair at neutral, but now it's mostly just fair which made Diddy's aerial neutral way less diverse and interesting despite still having the second best neutral in the game. Diddy Kong's neutral is pretty much carried by bananas and fair. If those two moves sucked, he would be low tier.

I tried experimenting with Villager, but his horrible grab animation caused me to get constantly punished, which forced me to rely way less on grabs which I didn't like. If he had a fast grab, I probably would just main that character instead since he would better fit my grab centric play style. Rosalina doesn't fit me well since she's more of a wall you out fortress character than a character that's campy with projectiles. Plus I tend to prefer smaller characters and she's both huge and light. If Yoshi's frame data was never nerfed, I'd play that character, but his approach options went to hell when they added startup to his neutral special, made his dash attack both way more punishable and no longer a combo tool, and made dair more punishable as well. It's bad enough that this is the only Smash game in the series where Yoshi can't do a buffered back air without end lag, but the other frame data nerfs made me unable to make him work despite using that character in Smash games for 14 years. He's way too slow in this game for my taste.

 

[C0rvus]

Nobody likes 100% of their character. You think Sheik mains like her forward smash? Some of them might. Then again, I personally still find Diddy's up air to be very strong. If you're asking for the character that fits you to a T you will more than likely be disappointed. I think you need to adjust your expectations. If you liked Smash 4, but Diddy's up air nerf made you change your mind, I'm not certain you actually ever liked this game.

 

[W.A.C.]

Nobody likes 100% of their character. You think Sheik mains like her forward smash? Some of them might. Then again, I personally still find Diddy's up air to be very strong. If you're asking for the character that fits you to a T you will more than likely be disappointed. I think you need to adjust your expectations. If you liked Smash 4, but Diddy's up air nerf made you change your mind, I'm not certain you actually ever liked this game.

I never expected to 100% like my character. I've never liked Diddy Kong's aerial mobility (though his amazing side special helped to compensate for it), his 3DS jab sucked, never cared for his nair, etc, but there was enough I liked about him to where I loved to play as him. But after he got double hard nerfed, that was no longer the case. I'm not a huge fan of this game after they handled the patches. A game is as fun as its most fun characters and its best characters were typically way more fun in the 3DS days, which is the main reason why I bought a Wii U and this game. If Smash 4 was initially like it is now, I would have never picked it up competitively.

 

[Stryker95]

I never expected to 100% like my character. I've never liked Diddy Kong's aerial mobility (though his amazing side special helped to compensate for it), his 3DS jab sucked, never cared for his nair, etc, but there was enough I liked about him to where I loved to play as him. But after he got double hard nerfed, that was no longer the case. I'm not a huge fan of this game after they handled the patches. A game is as fun as its most fun characters and its best characters were typically way more fun in the 3DS days, which is the main reason why I bought a Wii U and this game. If Smash 4 was initially like it is now, I would have never picked it up competitively.

I don't think this argument belongs here, but I understand it was brought here. We feel for your loss of love for the game, I suppose it happens to a few people, but there is nothing we can do about it. I hope you can find joy in something else if not Sm4sh, but for the sake of this thread, this does not belong here. Feel free to PM folks if you would like to discuss this further.
Thank you.

 

[C0rvus]

See, I'm the opposite. During the 3DS days, there was vectoring, which more or less prevented combos from ever being true, and let characters live longer. There was worse balance, between unpatched Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina being busted, and characters like Shulk, Ike, Marth, etc being irredeemable garbage. Old Smash 4 was trash.

Oh, and less shield stun? Forget that. The only negative about new patches in my mind is the new wave of top tier DLC characters.

 

[W.A.C.]

I don't think this argument belongs here, but I understand it was brought here. We feel for your loss of love for the game, I suppose it happens to a few people, but there is nothing we can do about it. I hope you can find joy in something else if not Sm4sh, but for the sake of this thread, this does not belong here. Feel free to PM folks if you would like to discuss this further.
Thank you.

Well should I make a new thread? I initially made a thread about this sort of stuff and it was merged into this thread. Shaya

See, I'm the opposite. During the 3DS days, there was vectoring, which more or less prevented combos from ever being true, and let characters live longer. There was worse balance, between unpatched Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina being busted, and characters like Shulk, Ike, Marth, etc being irredeemable garbage. Old Smash 4 was trash.

Oh, and less shield stun? Forget that. The only negative about new patches in my mind is the new wave of top tier DLC characters.

Ideal version of this game would've take the game as it right now right, but get rid of all the frame data nerfs, revert a lot of the range nerfs (ex: 3DS Greninja up smash and Diddy up air), and remove horizontal vectoring so we have a consistent DI system. Frame data nerfs should be completely off limits, as it hurts character versatility and fun factor more than anything else. I like vertical vectoring in the 3DS days, but it would be horrible now after all the patch changes and I currently hate the conflicting DI systems. Either have vectoring or no vectoring. Having a DI system that favors vertical kill is stupid. Also, characters were way more fun when they were busted. Only version of Shiek I liked was 3DS days Shiek because she was disgustingly broken.

 

[Shaya]

"never"?
That's a huge stretch. Cognitive bias everywhere.

-

Depends on how long you want the discussion to go on for.
Ideally it shouldn't be a competitive forum discussion. So it's either in here or in the general board.
But the direction of the discussion is essentially more now "I don't like this game because they did things I dislike" rather than "advice".

 

[Electrix]

Like there's nothing wrong with your post, but it was just frustrating my thread got merged into this thread when I have such a huge problem with this game.


"Your thread I feel like I entered competitive Smash at the worst possible time. was merged into Game Play Advice and General Discussion. Reason: redundancy (remember we keep new threads at a minimum). "

I like playing this game competitively, but patches killed my love for this game as I don't love playing as ANY of the characters. I enjoy Brawl, Project M 3.02, and older versions of Smash 4 more than this game, but neither Brawl or Project M have any real future, plus I'm not a fan of later versions of Project M. It's super frustrating that the only competitively relevant games out right now are Smash 64, Melee, and Smash 4, which was one of the biggest points of my thread.

I've tried experimenting with other characters, but no-one fits me really well in this game. I'm an grab-centric player that's very campy with projectiles that likes fast characters. Unlike past Smash games, most characters in this game just have such an insane amount of lag to their aerials and/or projectiles that I have a hard time having fun with them. That was one of the reasons why I mained Diddy Kong, but they nerfed his up air so much that I don't like that move anymore and I never cared for his nair, so basically I only like 3/5ths of his aerials now and you can't even throw out dairs very often. His 1.04 and 1.0.6 up air was my favorite aerial in the game, but nerfing its range, frame data, base knockback, and growth knockback in 1.0.8 took out all the fun out of that move. That character used to frequently mix up fair and uair at neutral, but now it's mostly just fair which made Diddy's aerial neutral way less diverse and interesting despite still having the second best neutral in the game. Diddy Kong's neutral is pretty much carried by bananas and fair. If those two moves sucked, he would be low tier.

I tried experimenting with Villager, but his horrible grab animation caused me to get constantly punished, which forced me to rely way less on grabs which I didn't like. If he had a fast grab, I probably would just main that character instead since he would better fit my grab centric play style. Rosalina doesn't fit me well since she's more of a wall you out fortress character than a character that's campy with projectiles. Plus I tend to prefer smaller characters and she's both huge and light. If Yoshi's frame data was never nerfed, I'd play that character, but his approach options went to hell when they added startup to his neutral special, made his dash attack both way more punishable and no longer a combo tool, and made dair more punishable as well. It's bad enough that this is the only Smash game in the series where Yoshi can't do a buffered back air without end lag, but the other frame data nerfs made me unable to make him work despite using that character in Smash games for 14 years. He's way too slow in this game for my taste.

You should try Toon Link. Decent grab game, good projectiles and great mobility. But I understand a slow grab can be a deal-breaker; I'm the same way

 

[W.A.C.]

Depends on how long you want the discussion to go on for.
Ideally it shouldn't be a competitive forum discussion. So it's either in here or in the general board.
But the direction of the discussion is essentially more now "I don't like this game because they did things I dislike" rather than "advice".

I planned on having this discussion go on for quite awhile. Should I make a new thread in the general board? Regarding the direction of this discussion, that's more so because I don't really know if people can really give me advice that would be insanely helpful. Like I've explored a ton of characters and my options for other games seems insanely limited in terms of Smash games that are competitively relevent, hence the original title, "I feel like I entered competitive Smash at the worst possible time."

You should try Toon Link. Decent grab game, good projectiles and great mobility. But I understand a slow grab can be a deal-breaker; I'm the same way

I'm confused why people recommend me Toon Link. His aerials and grab animation are laggy, plus he lacks throw followups. I find Adult Link more fun than him, though god I hate adult Link's default boomerang. Toon Link is basically just Bombs the character because his neutral is entirely reliant on bombs. He would suck without that move. Brawl Toon Link was WAY more fun.