Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Cool Trainer Ace]

Basically, my problem boils down to this: I just can't get any better at Smash. I want to be good, I know most of the advanced techs, I have a main, I practice for hours at a time (with a few breaks here and there), and I still just don't seem to be getting better. In fact, I think I'm getting worse. Since I know I'm not exactly fit for For Glory at the moment and can't go to tournaments (local or national), I tend to practice on level 9 CPUs, but the win-loss record is 50-50.

I don't know if it's me, the limitations of my character, or both, but I just can't seem to get it in gear. I also just can't seem to locate the problem. I know I'm at the very least an intermediate player, so it would be great to find out what's up. I'll start looking back at my replays to see what I'm missing (it could be anything from predictability to bad reading), but for now, any tips?
(My main is Cloud if it helps.)

 

[me quazzy]

Practice with actually people. For glory or local. Lvl9 computers are not suitable for practice unless you're trying to figure out ways to frame trap characters. They read every input you do a nanosecond after you push whatever button you push. They don't have human characteristics in their playingn either.
Cloud is a good character. You just need to learn everything he can do. You have to know what's safe on shield and what isn't. Also get a gameplan in your head and adjust it when needed. Have a plan for everything. Know your combos as well. Just about every character has moved that can juggle or combo. Reduce your depency on certain moves (limit breakers, side special, whatever you use too much that gets you in trouble). Do not be the Cloud that charges limit break, side smashes when someone gets too close, and then rolls away to repeat that process.
It's all simple stuff.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Don't train with Level 9s. Just, don't.
Stop. Don't train at all if you're gonna do it that way, it's honestly less harmful for you to not train than to try to with them. If you want to train with them, you might as well try to train on Classic, it's gonna give you roughly the same results.

Practicing with Level 9s can be good if you're trying to figure out everything a character can do against you. 10 matches or so against a Level 9 CPU can be very good in that case, then, since they are gonna utilize every tool of their character - every move, every dodge (trust, me, you sure are gonna see a lot of those), some combos, and you can get used to their speed, hitboxes, how you can adapt combos into them, etc.

After that, try to train against real people. Playing against Level 9 computers is gonna do nothing but breed bad habits in your playstyle. Level 9s don't actually read your inputs, but they basically do everything in such a way that it makes no difference if they're reading your inputs or not, so what's the point.
You can't train mindgames at all against them. And mindgames are very important in competitive play. You can't dash dance against them, they'll ignore it. You can't bait Counters, Spotdodges or Airdodges against them since they mostly only react to things you actually do, not things you might do. And you'd get the wrong idea of how a lot of combos work in this game if you played against them for too long, since they escape most of the more elaborate ones in ways that would require reactions even M2K can only dream of having, while they have a massively hard time escaping really stupid ones. As much as people complain about it, Mario's Down Throw>Up Tilt combo can actually be jumped out of by most of the cast after the second, at worst the third strike, sometimes you can escape after the first one if you're lucky. If you play against the Level 9s, though, you'd be led to believe you can get away with throwing 7 Up Tilts in a row before someone can escape.

But for God's sake, don't do For Glory in place of Level 9s, it's probably even worse. Try playing on Anther's Ladder instead. You'll find very good players very quickly.

 

[Cool Trainer Ace]

Don't train with Level 9s. Just, don't.
Stop. Don't train at all if you're gonna do it that way, it's honestly less harmful for you to not train than to try to with them. If you want to train with them, you might as well try to train on Classic, it's gonna give you roughly the same results.

Practicing with Level 9s can be good if you're trying to figure out everything a character can do against you. 10 matches or so against a Level 9 CPU can be very good in that case, then, since they are gonna utilize every tool of their character - every move, every dodge (trust, me, you sure are gonna see a lot of those), some combos, and you can get used to their speed, hitboxes, how you can adapt combos into them, etc.

After that, try to train against real people. Playing against Level 9 computers is gonna do nothing but breed bad habits in your playstyle. Level 9s don't actually read your inputs, but they basically do everything in such a way that it makes no difference if they're reading your inputs or not, so what's the point.
You can't train mindgames at all against them. And mindgames are very important in competitive play. You can't dash dance against them, they'll ignore it. You can't bait Counters, Spotdodges or Airdodges against them since they mostly only react to things you actually do, not things you might do. And you'd get the wrong idea of how a lot of combos work in this game if you played against them for too long, since they escape most of the more elaborate ones in ways that would require reactions even M2K can only dream of having, while they have a massively hard time escaping really stupid ones. As much as people complain about it, Mario's Down Throw>Up Tilt combo can actually be jumped out of by most of the cast after the second, at worst the third strike, sometimes you can escape after the first one if you're lucky. If you play against the Level 9s, though, you'd be led to believe you can get away with throwing 7 Up Tilts in a row before someone can escape.

But for God's sake, don't do For Glory in place of Level 9s, it's probably even worse. Try playing on Anther's Ladder instead. You'll find very good players very quickly.

Alright, thanks. I didn't exactly want to go on For Glory for obvious reasons, so I'll check it out.

Practice with actually people. For glory or local. Lvl9 computers are not suitable for practice unless you're trying to figure out ways to frame trap characters. They read every input you do a nanosecond after you push whatever button you push. They don't have human characteristics in their playingn either.
Cloud is a good character. You just need to learn everything he can do. You have to know what's safe on shield and what isn't. Also get a gameplan in your head and adjust it when needed. Have a plan for everything. Know your combos as well. Just about every character has moved that can juggle or combo. Reduce your depency on certain moves (limit breakers, side special, whatever you use too much that gets you in trouble). Do not be the Cloud that charges limit break, side smashes when someone gets too close, and then rolls away to repeat that process.
It's all simple stuff.

It's good to know that level 9s aren't good to train on. Good thing I've been on training mode most of the time.

 

[FamilyTeam]

It's good to know that level 9s aren't good to train on. Good thing I've been on training mode most of the time.

Just be careful, once again, to not get the wrong idea of how combos work in this game. IMO, training mode was useful to train chaingrabs in previous titles, but that's not a thing in this game.

 

[Cool Trainer Ace]

Just be careful, once again, to not get the wrong idea of how combos work in this game. IMO, training mode was useful to train chaingrabs in previous titles, but that's not a thing in this game.

I will. And thanks. (I just noticed you're that Lucina main I met the first day I joined SBs. Not really any point in mentioning that, I just noticed it. So hi again xD)

 

[FamilyTeam]

I will. And thanks. (I just noticed you're that Lucina main I met the first day I joined SBs. Not really any point in mentioning that, I just noticed it. So hi again xD)

...Huh. Well, hello again! I'm really happy you're still using these boards!

 

[Ninety]

So, when people talk about "overtuned" and "undertuned" moves, does that mean anything more specific than good/bad moves? Moves that do their job too well/not well enough? That do more/less than expected?

 

[vegeta18]

I have been thinking of taking a small hiatus from smash. I have personal stuff going on in my life right now that is effecting my performance, my tournament results have been significantly worse. Also im in my final semester of college and need to do well so that i can graduate and move on with my life. The problem is i find that i am pretty addicted to smash bros, it helps me take my mind off things but at the same time usually just delays me from dealing with them.

I want to take a 2-3 months break from smash to get my head straight and focus on school but i find it incredibly difficult. I am always playing or reading on here, or looking up smash vods on twitch/youtube. How can i force myself to forget about this for a bit and go hard when i come back?

 

[Ropato]

I have been thinking of taking a small hiatus from smash. I have personal stuff going on in my life right now that is effecting my performance, my tournament results have been significantly worse. Also im in my final semester of college and need to do well so that i can graduate and move on with my life. The problem is i find that i am pretty addicted to smash bros, it helps me take my mind off things but at the same time usually just delays me from dealing with them.

I want to take a 2-3 months break from smash to get my head straight and focus on school but i find it incredibly difficult. I am always playing or reading on here, or looking up smash vods on twitch/youtube. How can i force myself to forget about this for a bit and go hard when i come back?

Its dificult i know, but moderation is the key for everything, dont stop playing completly just play less in your free time and create a schedule for study and plan your day around that. But be strict and say "from 4 to 8 im going to study every day and i wil play smash from 22 to 23 hours or something like that" just reapeat yourselft you want to move one with your life and when you get your degree you will have a lot of time to play. Hope this helps you.

 

[vegeta18]

Its dificult i know, but moderation is the key for everything, dont stop playing completly just play less in your free time and create a schedule for study and plan your day around that. But be strict and say "from 4 to 8 im going to study every day and i wil play smash from 22 to 23 hours or something like that" just reapeat yourselft you want to move one with your life and when you get your degree you will have a lot of time to play. Hope this helps you.

ahh thanks, yeah im just gonna do that as well as stay away from the competitive scene. I guess thats stuff i knew but just needed to hear.

 

[RudyTutti]

So I'm having a dilemma. Whenever I play in bracket (or even friendlies) one of three things usually happen to me.

1; I play really well in the beginning of a set or match. But if I SD or die in a way I don't like, I melt and I play terribly and lose.

2; I think too much during the set about being read or reading the opponent or the matchup or even just wanting to play a certain way. And when I do that I play terribly and lose.

Or 3; I think too hard while playing to the point where I'm just throwing out unsafe attacks or doing stupid things (basically a bad autopilot) and I play terribly and lose!

Seeing a pattern here? Haha!

How do I avoid or combat this, and how do I improve my mental game? To anyone that has gone through this I ask, how did you change this? What worked for you? (And I know friendlies are meant for... Well you know... Friendly non competitive play! But I don't know I guess I'm just thinking too hard about just wanting to win?)

Thanks a ton in advanced everyone!

 

[Nemesis561]

I was having the same problem until recently... Funny enough ZeRo actually released a video about this and it actually helped me quite a bit.

The reason this is happening is because you're putting undue pressure on yourself. One thing ZeRo said stuck with me... Its just a local, there's always next week. If you lose, its whatever... Learn from it and have fun...

I consider myself a good player but was unable to enter my local tournaments in south florida because of work. When I finally was able to attend regularly, I came in with the wrong mentality. I thought to myself Im gonna dominate and make a name for myself. My first tournament I got there early and played friendlies... And I won almost all of them, in particular against one guy, a Falcon player.

When the tournament started, surprise Im paired up first round against this same falcon player. I think to myself sweet Im gonna win... Well anyway right before the match I start getting nervous, I want to prove myself. People like MVD, Xaltis, nick riddle are in attendance... Im gonna show People who i am.

Anyways I start playing and right away Im making crazy mistakes and I cant stop overthinking. I get destroyed by this same Falcon player I was destroying. Now Im on tilt and go 0-2 and scrub out.

The Falcon player comes to me later and tells me how surprising it was the mistakes I was making that I wasn't earlier.

The last few weeks I have done way better and gotten pretty deep in tournaments at Versus gaming in S Florida, a super competitive region

I have trained myself now to just have fun and not put all that pressure on myself. Its just a game... Hope this can help you out

 

[wingedarcher7]

You just need to let loose, dude. Keep in mind that you're playing a game. I know that the point is to win, but try not to make yourself hyperactive or else getting that victory just becomes more difficult. Relax and play the game because you like it and not because winning is a necessity.

Keep practicing against other people and watch some competitive play. Get the hang of reading other people and keep getting better at the game. Even if things aren't going in your favor and you SD, keep doing your best. Comebacks are always possible and if you SD, the opponent could do the same thing. Just stay calm and remember you're playing the game because it's fun. If you're calm, you'll be able to make better decisions. I hope this helps, keep playing and enjoying it, dude! You've got lots of people here cheering you on.

 

[DanGR]

Hey, I'm looking for a frame advantage/disadvantage on block repository for every attack in the game. I think Shaya posted his a little while back?

 

[Rednax]

I live in metairie louisiana, which is a suburb of new orleans; if anyone knows of a smash scene there that'd be nice to learn since I've been wanting to get into the competitive scene.

 

[RudyTutti]

Thanks so much guys! Your advice is going to be super helpful!

 

[IsmaR]

You'd probably have better luck asking here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ash-monthlies-jan-23rd-lake-charles-la.53259/

 

[Shaya]

I only have aerials (except for Little Mac, which I guess was a bit of facetiousness and I should go about getting his aerial stuff, lol).
LordWilliam1234 's spreadsheets would have everything you need for ground moves and specials I think.

Here's mine though: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GcccIxzB2tBhTxDDlJPNHd72MVQ95wG5RfnHroDgMc8

 

[Leffigi]

I have a friend who mains bowser and all he does is either uptrhow and followup or side b. When he is falling down he just goes downb. How do i count these grabs? I'm usually the best out of my friends but he's the only one who can beat me. I play Ryu, Cloud and Mega man.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Best defense for grabs are moves that come out quick or have a ton of active frames. Or any projectile attack that has low lag and covers yourself horizontally from the opponent. Mega Man's buster pellets are an excellent answer to grabs...when you're not fighting specifically Bowser. He can tough guy armor them. Use Metal Blade instead. Repeatable jabs are also good - Cloud has one of those. Just holding the A button will allow you to use Jab 1 several times a second. Finally, moves with lots of active frames. Many Nairs are great for falling when the opponent is running up to cover your landing. Sheik, Mario, and many others can put out that sort of constant hitbox to ward off grabs. Remember, the triangle: Shields beat attacks, attacks beat grabs, grabs beat shields. The reason attacks beat grabs is because if you hit somebody at the same point as their grab, the attack wins. And every character has a jab or other move faster than the average 8-10 startup on the average dash grab.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

LordWilliam1234 's spreadsheets would have everything you need for ground moves and specials I think.

Yep. And those interested can find the spreadsheets in my signature now.

Although I haven't checked through everyone myself (characters I haven't checked fully in 1.14 yet have an asterisk next to their name), I believe Zapp Branniglenn has found all of the instances of endlag changes so the advantage numbers in my 1.14 sheet should be up to date. The exceptions being moves that got damage changes which may be a frame or two safer on shield now.

 

[aidspup]

iv seen alot of people who play chars with a d-air that brings ur self downwords, spaming d-air every time u manage to get them above u, im not to sure what the correct term is so il just call it decending d-air,
chars with decending d-airs include


by now if u still dont know what im talking about i mean a d-air that makes ur character go downward, very quickly.

iv always have seen it many times on for glory, but i just have not been able to punish it, anytime i try to, i just wind up getting hit, or having to air dodge.
any time an opponent does the same stuff over and over again u start to read them and punish them.
for me this isnt the case for decending d-airs
can someone pls teatch me how to punish these moves

 

[Shotgun B]

Question for this forum- does anyone have any idea when the SBR will start working on the next tier list?

iv seen alot of people who play chars with a d-air that brings ur self downwords, spaming d-air every time u manage to get them above u, im not to sure what the correct term is so il just call it decending d-air,
chars with decending d-airs include


by now if u still dont know what im talking about i mean a d-air that makes ur character go downward, very quickly.

iv always have seen it many times on for glory, but i just have not been able to punish it, anytime i try to, i just wind up getting hit, or having to air dodge.
any time an opponent does the same stuff over and over again u start to read them and punish them.
for me this isnt the case for decending d-airs
can someone pls teatch me how to punish these moves

From my experience, just shield. Wait for the hitbox to stop hitting your shield, then IMMEDIATELY grab or (if you can't grab from that postion) throw out a fast tilt. These dairs have a lot of lag and you should definitely have the frame advantage on most/all of them. Once you get used to it, try just moving slightly to the side without shielding so they'll whiff and hit the ground. I can usually punish with a good fsmash in these cases.

 

[Rockir]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here are some videos of recent play from me on For Glory 3DS. I refuse to play Wii U FG because of the bullies online, and because it's much more difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMRBbu4ydL4 (D.Mario vs Corrin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1oK2uKNOIw (Robin vs Lucina)
http://youtu.be/WrwKa6H7rY8 (Robin vs Luigi)
http://youtu.be/Z1EQJiAxmAc (Wario vs Luigi)

Excuse the strange angle of the first video, I have no idea why that happened.

I know I won the second game, but it honestly feels like I should have done much, much better at all of them I gave them everything I had, but still struggled, and while I bounced around trying to bait out the opponent or watch for habits, they would roll/smash and I couldn't find a way to punish them. At least that was the case with the first opponent in games 1 and 2. The 2nd opponent as Luigi decimated me. But it's been an entire year now, and I still lose this badly. My worst game? A Dark Pit only using rolls and Electroshock exclusively defeated me with ease. What do I do? No matter how hard I try, there's something I can't figure out for myself here.

By the way, when I lost the 2nd stock as Doc Mario, I swear I was meant to shield while running towards the charging smash, but for reasons I can't understand, nothing happened. It looks like a joke though, I'm sure

EDIT: Just learned I've been doing half my techs wrong for an entire year like mistaking vectoring for DI. How am I supposed to improve now? I can't get the old tricks out of my head!

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here are some videos of recent play from me on For Glory 3DS. I refuse to play Wii U FG because of the bullies online, and because it's much more difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMRBbu4ydL4 (D.Mario vs Corrin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1oK2uKNOIw (Robin vs Lucina)
http://youtu.be/WrwKa6H7rY8 (Robin vs Luigi)
http://youtu.be/Z1EQJiAxmAc (Wario vs Luigi)

Excuse the strange angle of the first video, I have no idea why that happened.

I know I won the second game, but it honestly feels like I should have done much, much better at all of them I gave them everything I had, but still struggled, and while I bounced around trying to bait out the opponent or watch for habits, they would roll/smash and I couldn't find a way to punish them. At least that was the case with the first opponent in games 1 and 2. The 2nd opponent as Luigi decimated me. But it's been an entire year now, and I still lose this badly. My worst game? A Dark Pit only using rolls and Electroshock exclusively defeated me with ease. What do I do? No matter how hard I try, there's something I can't figure out for myself here.

By the way, when I lost the 2nd stock as Doc Mario, I swear I was meant to shield while running towards the charging smash, but for reasons I can't understand, nothing happened. It looks like a joke though, I'm sure

EDIT: Just learned I've been doing half my techs wrong for an entire year like mistaking vectoring for DI. How am I supposed to improve now? I can't get the old tricks out of my head!

Well first thing is a major one, as I found it is a habit of yours. Stop jumping in neutral. Just stop doing it so much. Whenever your opponent is a little far away from you, you immediately start doing pointless full hops. Don't do that.
1. it's pointless, at least the way you were "using" it
2. I saw you get punished a lot in the air and once you land. Especially against Corrin with that stupidly strong up air.

Also, try mixing up your approach. As far as I know, the only way you approached was with full hops. Try mixing it up with advancing pills, nairs, and bairs.

You have potential, dude, just work on your habits, and you will quickly and easily improve!

 

[Shaya]

Question for this forum- does anyone have any idea when the SBR will start working on the next tier list?

No decision has been made yet but we're looking at a max of around 6 months from now and a minimum of 2 I'd say

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

I've a few questions on DI and SDI.

DI is just holding the movement stick in one direct while SDI is repeatedly flicking it in one direction or in a quarter circle, correct?

Do I SDI or DI to get out of combos and survive knockback?

 

[Stryker95]

Both. DI to survive knockback and get out of combos and SDI to get out of multihit moves, which helps to get out of combos, like Bayos up B. Check out this video for a batter explanation.

 

[SaiPrime]

I'm a competitive Link main, but I have trouble against a few matchups. Or more specifically, one type of matchup. The main characters I do badly against are Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, and maybe Pikachu. Speedy grabby characters.

I am a decent player, as I actually win or at least put up a good fight against plenty of other characters, including other high tiers. For instance, at a recent tournament, I barely lost 2-1 against a Cloud player, but got wrecked 2-0 by a Fox player.

So I'm looking for advice regarding good secondaries I could pick up to counter my bad matchups, as well as advice on how to get better at playing said bad matchups using Link.

Should I even pick up a secondary? Should I just learn better skills and tactics to fight the matchups? Thoughts guys?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Does anyone else have a hard time properly punishing airdodges? It just feels harder than it should, for a move with end lag (apparently). It was a lot easier for me to simply wait it out and punish in Brawl. Here, the opponent seems to either have a lot of invinicibilility or they can attack out of it.

 

[ItsASquid]

I don't understand spacing. I get that it means using attacks that keep enemies out of the likes of grab range but not how to go about it. Usually in games these things happen when i try:

1) I hit the enemy with the tip of a move, say Ryu's forward air, but they get me anyway.
2) I go for a grab, it misses, but the enemy - without moving - gets their grab at the same range.
3) I try to reset to neutral but the enemy always catches me.

Especially a problem with fast characters; I have yet to defeat a Pikachu or Zero Suit Samus of any kind; they too quick and I can't find an opening, nor can I space them because they seem to close the gap I make too quickly.

 

[Megamang]

Spacing is MU dependent, so consider that as you learn. It also isn't only where you and your opponent are when you attack or grab, it is the movement and interaction before those moments. For example, a character jumps and you move forwards under them to punish their landing options. Your movement should be either a response to your opponent's actions, or an attempt to make the opponent react to you. People have different movements; people who watch a lot of smash can pick out players simply by their movement and spacing!

I see you have a Ryu icon there; your focus attack is also a major part of your spacing game. Make sure you are fluid with moving it and canceling it, as this will improve your movement greatly, especially in the air where Ryu accelerates very slowly. Watch Trela's Ryu, focus on how he spaces himself in relation to his opponent. You will notice he walks frequently, as this gives you more options in the moment. If you run your opponent can narrow down your options and more easily predict you, though of course running also has its place in smash. Avoid rolling to space yourself, this can help sometimes but is often a bad habit players develop in their formatory stages. Especially with Ryu, who I believe has pretty below average dodges.

An exercise you can do is watch a pro Ryu, and pause the video at random moments. Try and determine what you would do next, then watch what they do. See if it works! Consider what your action would have resulted in, perhaps finding examples of that in other moments in the video.

 

[W.A.C.]

I have no idea interest in playing Smash 64 or Melee competitively. For Smash 64, it just simply isn't my type of game. For Melee, there are three deal breakers: no control customization, my favorite character isn't solo-viable because of the game's awful balance, and that game obliterates hands. Brawl's competitive scene is completely dead, so trying to get into that game competitively is a waste of my time. While I loved Project M 3.02, I am not a fan of the direction later versions went and that game has no future because of legal reasons. Then there's Smash 4, the first Smash game I decided to play competitively.

I used to love Smash 4, but after having my characters get ****ed over by patches and getting sick of how so many characters in this game have so much lag on their attacks and have such linear neutrals, my love for this game died. It's been dead for over half a year, yet I'm still extremely motivated with this game. I constantly want to improve, enter tournaments, and get better at Smash, yet I wish the Smash game I was playing was a hell of a lot better. Had the original 3DS version been like how the game is now, I would have never gotten into this game competitively and might have never gotten a Wii U. Also later grew to hate the rage mechanic among other factors about Smash 4 that initially didn't bother me that much, which has contributed to my opinion of the game further declining.

With these factors in mind, I'm not quite sure what to do. I still get a lot of enjoyment and fun out of Smash 4, but nothing compared to the fun it used to bring me thanks to character nerfs. If Brawl's scene was as active as Melee or Smash 4, I'd consider playing that game instead, but it's dead. If Project M 3.02 was the last version instead of 3.6 and that game had an actual future, I would also consider playing that over Smash 4. :/ Basically my options for competitively relevant Smash games are two games over 14 years old and Smash 4. I feel like my options suck.

 

[Zerp]

I'm not exactly sure what your asking, but if your worried about Yoshi's and Diddy's viability because they got nerfed, I don't think you need to be. Diddy's still strong in the grand scheme of things, and arguably solo-viable, if your talented you can definitely still win tournies with him. Yoshi's also still pretty strong, not as strong as Diddy, but he's a viable character as well. Their not as good as they used to be, but their still pretty darn good. Also, wasn't really nerfed during patches, but you also play Meta Knight, who's, again, arguably solo-viable. If you put serious time into any of them I guarantee you'll be able to get somewhere.

 

[Jcsaenz1]

Don't get demotivated bro. In the competitive scene both Diddy and MK are very, very present. Some examples are Abadango winning Niconico, MK Leo being the best in Mexico, and ZeRo still plays Diddy a lot.

 

[W.A.C.]

This has nothing to do with viability. I simply don't enjoy Yoshi or Diddy Kong anywhere near as much as their past iterations, though Diddy Kong is still my favorite character in the game. I really should update my sig. I just solo main Diddy Kong nowadays. I dropped Yoshi three times because I could never enjoy that character even slightly as much after he got nerfed and MK got demoted to emergency secondary status because I got sick of his limited af neutral.

The point of this thread is basically nerfs hurts my overall enjoyment of this game so much that it killed my love for this game, yet I don't feel like I have any better options than this game in terms of competitively relevant Smash games which leaves me insanely frustrated.

 

[Still~Wolf]

tbh diddy isn't really that different. he's just not OP now.

nerfs are good. you said it yourself, melee is insanely unbalanced. nerfs help keep characters in check. is it a trying process? yes, sometimes the team doesn't know how to properly edit a character, but it works, and at least they're trying. they usually do good about nerfing OP characters too, so it keeps the game fair.

if you just want consistent characters, then yes, melee is your best bet. your hands will likely adapt to it, as with many players. initial pain is common.

 

[Jcsaenz1]

Well, you can simply choose other characters to play with. It doesn't matter if they're low tier (at least in my point of view). There are over 50 of them, so you should have at least one that you can really enjoy. If you want an awesome neutral game, I suggest you try playing Sheik, ZSS, Fox, or Ryu, or try and find yourself enjoying one of the low tiers.

 

[Eugene Wang]

If you like kill confirms off the throws, check out the heavies. They gained some hoo-hah kill combos from the balance patches. Kirby might also fit the bill, having relatively even matchups against Sheik and Zss thanks to his duck and pretty good kill throws.

If you like strong neutral games, Diddy still rules. Sheik is also godly at it, though you might not like having to work for a kill or the always-impending spectre of balance patches.

 

[W.A.C.]

tbh diddy isn't really that different. he's just not OP now.

nerfs are good. you said it yourself, melee is insanely unbalanced. nerfs help keep characters in check. is it a trying process? yes, sometimes the team doesn't know how to properly edit a character, but it works, and at least they're trying. they usually do good about nerfing OP characters too, so it keeps the game fair.

if you just want consistent characters, then yes, melee is your best bet. your hands will likely adapt to it, as with many players. initial pain is common.

Diddy Kong is very different than he used to be. They pretty much butchered his up air. He was fine in 1.0.6, but the 1.0.8 nerfs was massive overkill. Then with Yoshi, absolutely none of the frame data nerfs he received were justifiable. It ruined that character for me and I've been using that character in every Smash game for 14 years.

Well, you can simply choose other characters to play with. It doesn't matter if they're low tier (at least in my point of view). There are over 50 of them, so you should have at least one that you can really enjoy. If you want an awesome neutral game, I suggest you try playing Sheik, ZSS, Fox, or Ryu, or try and find yourself enjoying one of the low tiers.

None of the four characters you mentioned interest me and none of the low tiers in this game interest me because their options are too limited.

If you like kill confirms off the throws, check out the heavies. They gained some hoo-hah kill combos from the balance patches. Kirby might also fit the bill, having relatively even matchups against Sheik and Zss thanks to his duck and pretty good kill throws.

If you like strong neutral games, Diddy still rules. Sheik is also godly at it, though you might not like having to work for a kill or the always-impending spectre of balance patches.

I don't really find DK's specials very interesting outside of his up special and Bowser's neutral is horrible. Regarding Kirby, I hate his aerial mobility and find most of his default specials bland and uninspired.