Functionally, how would Dead Man's Volley even work?

[Jotari]

Warlock Punch is removed and replaced with Dead Man's Volley. Ganondorf is otherwise exactly the same. No reflector, no trident no other changes. Just a projectile instead of Warlock Punch. That's the set up, my question for you is, how should that projectile work and what function should it have in his moveset? I see three obvious options.

1. Shadow Ball. Make it a charging projectile you can store that deals high knockback. Fitting in with Ganondorf's other moves.

2.Flare. A super powerful attack like Sephiroth's flare, but a projectile without any actual range (at the highest level). Fitting with Ganondorf's devastating 1hit kill potential attacks.

3.Paralyzer. A high windup, short range projectile that briefly stuns opponents, like Zero Suit Samus's neutral special. This leaves enemies open to Ganondorf's devastating normals. This would also be the most authentic version of the attack as Ganondorf's projectiles are usually pretty basic attacks, not massively powerful stuff.

My fourth idea is a more creative one based on his multi shot variation. Again, it's a charge up attack, only instead of one powerful projectile like Shadow Ball or Charge Shot, Ganondorf shoots multiple lightning balls, only in different directions, arcing out from him. A bit like this

These projectiles would actually be pretty weak and would mostly be used for spacing. It would be an esoteric attack for smash in general, and particularly for Ganondorf, but it could work pretty well. Maybe the range would have to be low to stop it from being spammy (though hopefully requiring a charge would prevent that to begin with).

Which of these ideas do you think would work the best and what way would you like to see Dead Man's Volley implemented (assuming everything else about Ganondorf remains the same).

 

[Quillion]

Purely for the sake of the "fans", I'd go with a regular Charge Shot/Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere type move honestly. No fancy reflection properties like Gordo Throw; just a no frills, chargeable projectile.

By my personal preference, I'd say just give Warlock Punch a "tap" option that reflects projectiles while the "hold" option is the move as it is. I'm also kinda debating whether Ganondorf should just be a deceptively fast heavy akin to Bowser since his lack of range admittedly has poor synergy with his terrible mobility.

If we're going with fan projects, there's also this, but it's a bit too gimmicky for a canon Smash game IMO.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Make it an extremely powerful projectile that begins slow and small but gains speed; size; and even more power as it moves - counterintuitive as this may be, it'd also be unreflectable, even by reflecting moves - that way you can keep the frightening inevitability of a well-timed Warlock Punch, as well as the trickiness to time it. Doesn't paralyze/charge/e.t.c.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Whatever it is, it should be able to be reflected by attacking it with any hitbox.

 

[Quillion]

Whatever it is, it should be able to be reflected by attacking it with any hitbox.

But why though? Verde Coeden Scalesworth , their insistence that such a projectile needs be slow aside, has been making a good point that reflecting with any hitbox would be a major example of canon hurting good design for the sake of canon for a long time now.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Nah, if you get the speed just right, I'm sure it can be balanced and canon-accurate at the same time.

 

[Quillion]

Nah, if you get the speed just right, I'm sure it can be balanced and canon-accurate at the same time.

TBF, I kinda want the next Smash to have a universal "parry reflects projectiles" property like what Melee had, but with parry being inherently riskier, it'll be a lot cooler to pull off while giving everyone a way to deal with projectiles.

But for his Dead Man's Volley/Lightning Ball/whatever anyone wants to call it, I don't think it could work at any speed with a "reflect with any projectile" property. If it's slow like Mario's Fireball, it's useless. If it's fast like a Fox Blaster, the whole "reflect with any attack" is pointless.
----
Also, I'd like to reiterate that Sephiroth needed to be a Mewtwo-esque lightweight (as little sense as it makes for both) since he has big reach and good projectiles. Is there anything about Ganondorf's moveset design that supports a projectile?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can explain my thoughts on this easily now that I was tagged here;

First, before I note how it would work well, even ignoring the speed of the projectile, it should not remotely replace Warlock Punch, which is actually far more of an accurate move. It should replace Wizard's Foot, which barely fits Ganondorf's abilities in any way. Second, if it isn't very easy to reflect or deflect by most, it's not Dead Man's Volley. Use a different name for it only in that case. Now, onto how to fix it up.

Caveat; don't replace the specials and just have you charge it up with Neutral A, completely stopping it from affecting a rather popular moveset but solely adding onto it.

• First and foremost, he needs to actually charge it up a tad, but it doesn't need to be much anyway. You could go slower, but then it leaves you vulnerable.
• Second, any weapon(or item used identically to a weapon in practice) can deflect it, but only if it's an actual weapon. If it's a case of, say, Samus' armgun, she has to actually be using either his Forward Smash or specifically an elemental attack. Likewise, this would work with Peach and Daisy's sports items.
• Next up, what determines reflecting or deflecting. Any natural reflectors do what you'd expect. Mewtwo still deflects(last I checked. I may be wrong), and it'd work here too. Now, there's tons of characters who attacks with a weapon. However, most of the time the weapon would knock it upwards etc, and not back at Ganondorf realistically, just like in the games. So instead, most moves need to be an outright Reflector ability or a Forward Smash to really reflect it. Other cases just deflect it upwards, or downwards.
• Unique interactions with joke items should be considered. Might as well do it all so it's actually cool.
  • Young Link's Bottle Drinking actually can reflect it, but only when he brings it up to start drinking and right after he's finished. Reflecting it back at Ganondorf does not stop his taunt, though. However, it would go fast enough you're unlikely to reflect it back as is to Young Link.
  • Isabelle in specific when using her Fishing Rod. If after he fires it, and she uses the move, they both pass through each other. Ganondorf looks completely dumbfounded while Isabelle is stuck there for a moment. During this, Ganondorf is not able to actually be sent anywhere with attacks, but can take damage. He'd be also immune to any kind of throw to balance this interaction out.
  • Villager and Isabelle's Bug-Catching Net would be the only Item/Weapon that does not possibly send the attack back at an angle. However, due to it being a throw, they still have some lag time.
• Items are unique, with tons of them which can be a literal weapon. Smash Attacks reflect if they're Forward ones or already have a unique property to specifically reflect if they're a Down or Up Smash. Otherwise, every other use of said item can deflect as long as it's the strict item. For instance, the Ore Club's whirlwind would clash with DMV/Blue Balls), probably cancelling them out. Assuming that item has an effect on projectiles with its own. if not, then things are normal. Albeit, you usually need a Smash Attack to get said projectile, but you get what I mean. Special projectiles from bludgeoning weapons cannot deflect or reflect, just sometimes cancel it out based upon the power settings of a projectile when the clash happens.
• Finally, to make it more unique, if he charges it up fully, it becomes the Blue Balls attack and can only be reflected via a Spin Attack. Any character with a near identical Special move can do the same. I.E. the Screw Attack, Mario/Dr. Mario Spin, R.O.B.'s Up B. This wouldn't however affect Dragon Punch variants as they're not true spinning. The Hurricane Kick however would. As for their interaction with DMV only, they would deflect unless they're supposed to reflect projectiles as is in any particular case, then I'd move it to reflecting it.

I wanted to account for every unique interaction possible. I might've missed something. That, and Counters like, well, Counter, don't reflect or deflecting projectiles. It just basically gives you invincibility frames for a little bit, usually making the projectile pass through you(some might last long enough, like said Ore Club, to make it meaningless). Otherwise, they're both energy attacks, so of course Ness can absorb them. Depending upon how Blue Balls is used, those can be absorbed by Bucket or Villager's Item Grabbing.

 

[Quillion]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : Two questions:

First, before I note how it would work well, even ignoring the speed of the projectile, it should not remotely replace Warlock Punch, which is actually far more of an accurate move.

What makes Warlock Punch a more "accurate move"? At best, Warlock Punch is an extrapolation of the ground punch in OoT plus the dark waves in one of that game's cutscenes, but Ganon in some form has used Dead Man's Volley directly and by his own intention in three games.

Second, if it isn't very easy to reflect or deflect by most, it's not Dead Man's Volley. Use a different name for it only in that case.

Why do you keep insisting on using Dead Man's Volley only for the reflection property and not the ball itself? This is argumentum ad populum, but so many people refer to the energy ball itself as Dead Man's Volley.
----
On this topic:

Caveat; don't replace the specials and just have you charge it up with Neutral A, completely stopping it from affecting a rather popular moveset but solely adding onto it.

• First and foremost, he needs to actually charge it up a tad, but it doesn't need to be much anyway. You could go slower, but then it leaves you vulnerable.
• Second, any weapon(or item used identically to a weapon in practice) can deflect it, but only if it's an actual weapon. If it's a case of, say, Samus' armgun, she has to actually be using either his Forward Smash or specifically an elemental attack. Likewise, this would work with Peach and Daisy's sports items.
• Next up, what determines reflecting or deflecting. Any natural reflectors do what you'd expect. Mewtwo still deflects(last I checked. I may be wrong), and it'd work here too. Now, there's tons of characters who attacks with a weapon. However, most of the time the weapon would knock it upwards etc, and not back at Ganondorf realistically, just like in the games. So instead, most moves need to be an outright Reflector ability or a Forward Smash to really reflect it. Other cases just deflect it upwards, or downwards.
• Unique interactions with joke items should be considered. Might as well do it all so it's actually cool.
  • Young Link's Bottle Drinking actually can reflect it, but only when he brings it up to start drinking and right after he's finished. Reflecting it back at Ganondorf does not stop his taunt, though. However, it would go fast enough you're unlikely to reflect it back as is to Young Link.
  • Isabelle in specific when using her Fishing Rod. If after he fires it, and she uses the move, they both pass through each other. Ganondorf looks completely dumbfounded while Isabelle is stuck there for a moment. During this, Ganondorf is not able to actually be sent anywhere with attacks, but can take damage. He'd be also immune to any kind of throw to balance this interaction out.
  • Villager and Isabelle's Bug-Catching Net would be the only Item/Weapon that does not possibly send the attack back at an angle. However, due to it being a throw, they still have some lag time.
• Items are unique, with tons of them which can be a literal weapon. Smash Attacks reflect if they're Forward ones or already have a unique property to specifically reflect if they're a Down or Up Smash. Otherwise, every other use of said item can deflect as long as it's the strict item. For instance, the Ore Club's whirlwind would clash with DMV/Blue Balls), probably cancelling them out. Assuming that item has an effect on projectiles with its own. if not, then things are normal. Albeit, you usually need a Smash Attack to get said projectile, but you get what I mean. Special projectiles from bludgeoning weapons cannot deflect or reflect, just sometimes cancel it out based upon the power settings of a projectile when the clash happens.
• Finally, to make it more unique, if he charges it up fully, it becomes the Blue Balls attack and can only be reflected via a Spin Attack. Any character with a near identical Special move can do the same. I.E. the Screw Attack, Mario/Dr. Mario Spin, R.O.B.'s Up B. This wouldn't however affect Dragon Punch variants as they're not true spinning. The Hurricane Kick however would. As for their interaction with DMV only, they would deflect unless they're supposed to reflect projectiles as is in any particular case, then I'd move it to reflecting it.

I wanted to account for every unique interaction possible. I might've missed something. That, and Counters like, well, Counter, don't reflect or deflecting projectiles. It just basically gives you invincibility frames for a little bit, usually making the projectile pass through you(some might last long enough, like said Ore Club, to make it meaningless). Otherwise, they're both energy attacks, so of course Ness can absorb them. Depending upon how Blue Balls is used, those can be absorbed by Bucket or Villager's Item Grabbing.

...yeah, I'd rather just have a standard no-frills projectile at that point.

 

[Aligo]

Just make it a projectile that is slow and weak, but becomes much stronger and faster if it collided with another projectile, including those with transcendent priority. Not all that accurate of a move, but keeps the getting stinger after hit property and also chunks spammers.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : Two questions:



What makes Warlock Punch a more "accurate move"? At best, Warlock Punch is an extrapolation of the ground punch in OoT plus the dark waves in one of that game's cutscenes, but Ganon in some form has used Dead Man's Volley directly and by his own intention in three games.

Because it's based upon something he did moreso than, say, Wizard's Foot, or Dark Dive, or even Gerudo Dragon(only the last one was replaced). It's still a powerful punch no matter how you go about it, filled with magic. The difference is tangible.

Why do you keep insisting on using Dead Man's Volley only for the reflection property and not the ball itself? This is argumentum ad populum, but so many people refer to the energy ball itself as Dead Man's Volley.

What's the name of the move? Dead Man's Volley. Why does it exist? To be reflected. It first saw use strictly in ALTTP, and then OOT, and then multiple games, not always being used by Ganon or someone closely related either, after all. The ball is not even the same as "Blue Balls", a legitimately different projectile. Neither got any real name for a long time, and it's only DMV that got named in PH. Any internal names are unknown. Blue Balls, as is nicknamed sometimes, is based upon the idea it can't be reflected by weapons/etc.(or very easily, as it's only OOT that lets you reflect that magic, by earning it through a Spin Attack. I am unsure if it's the charged or quick version of the spin attack, though. This doesn't work otherwise.

On this topic:



...yeah, I'd rather just have a standard no-frills projectile at that point.

To be fair, my goal was to make it not just accurate, but actually interesting and includes cool properties from the tons of battles as call-backs, including TP Ganondorf being dumbfounded at Link pulling out a Fishing Rod.

But yeah, I don't do half-assed representation. You want a volley, you get a volley. Being they're, as I said, not actually nor ever was the same move in any form, just having a similar property(that is, they're both energy projectiles, or electricity, depending the game), and that's it. The whole point is they have different uses in practice.

 

[Quillion]

Because it's based upon something he did moreso than, say, Wizard's Foot, or Dark Dive, or even Gerudo Dragon(only the last one was replaced). It's still a powerful punch no matter how you go about it, filled with magic. The difference is tangible.

I can see that it's an accurate move (in terms of the binary of "it's something he did"/"it's something he didn't do"), but why is it "more accurate" than Ganondorf throwing an energy ball?

What's the name of the move? Dead Man's Volley. Why does it exist? To be reflected. It first saw use strictly in ALTTP, and then OOT, and then multiple games, not always being used by Ganon or someone closely related either, after all. The ball is not even the same as "Blue Balls", a legitimately different projectile. Neither got any real name for a long time, and it's only DMV that got named in PH. Any internal names are unknown. Blue Balls, as is nicknamed sometimes, is based upon the idea it can't be reflected by weapons/etc.(or very easily, as it's only OOT that lets you reflect that magic, by earning it through a Spin Attack. I am unsure if it's the charged or quick version of the spin attack, though. This doesn't work otherwise.

That makes sense if you use the sports definition of "a strike or kick of the ball made before it touches the ground" Funnily enough, by the definiton of "a number of bullets, arrows, or other projectiles discharged at one time", the real Dead Man's Volley should be this attack:

(Both definitions are from Oxford via Google and supported by Webster)

Still, it's convenient enough shorthand for the ball itself, like how a baseball is both the whole game and the ball used in that game, so I think being insistent about it being the reflection property is being pedantic. Unless you want to call it a "volleyball" or just call the move itself "Dead Man's Serve".

But yeah, I don't do half-assed representation.

Eh, half-assed representation leads to a more balanced approach to moveset design if you ask me. If a character has enough material available, "every normal a reference" and "no canonical references at all" are equally bad approaches to moveset design.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can see that it's an accurate move (in terms of the binary of "it's something he did"/"it's something he didn't do"), but why is it "more accurate" than Ganondorf throwing an energy ball?

Yes. Because it represents one move, where you're talking about two separate moves. The animations are just used for another move beyond Warlock Punch.

That makes sense if you use the sports definition of "a strike or kick of the ball made before it touches the ground" Funnily enough, by the definiton of "a number of bullets, arrows, or other projectiles discharged at one time", the real Dead Man's Volley should be this attack:

No, the real DMV is reflecting an energy projectile with specific means. That's the only one that matters in Zelda. Those definitions don't have any relevance.

Still, it's convenient enough shorthand for the ball itself, like how a baseball is both the whole game and the ball used in that game, so I think being insistent about it being the reflection property is being pedantic. Unless you want to call it a "volleyball" or just call the move itself "Dead Man's Serve".

Call it Energy Ball and leave it at that. Or Thunder Ball, if we're talking about using Thunder Punch as an alternate way to start charging it. Both actually are completely accurate to the point of the move. It's hilarious, cause they've done this before. Pikachu doesn't use Thunder Shock for its Neutral B. It's Thunder Jolt, a name fully gotten, while from the TCG as a mistake, to represent a tiny jolt of electricity instead of its full version. It's why Thunder Shock and Thunder Wave are separate custom moves that are more accurate. Besides, Thunder Shock is pretty much shown to be more or less the same as Thunder Bolt in practice, a huge amount of electricity brought down on the opponent. Something that isn't done in Smash, besides kind of with Thunder. And it's still pretty accurate anyway. It's also not the first time we've seen a tiny bit of electricity being used instead of just a full shot of it like consistently in the games(besides the move Thunder). The anime did something near identical with Pikachu sending a tiny bolt of electricity at Paras in the aptly named "The Problem With Paras", who is so weak all of Ash's weakest attacks knock it out. Team Rocket, in that case, helped it evolve by doing a loophole abuse of having it win battles cause they say "we surrender", somehow gaining experience points. It's as silly as it sounds, but it worked~

Eh, half-assed representation leads to a more balanced approach to moveset design if you ask me. If a character has enough material available, "every normal a reference" and "no canonical references at all" are equally bad approaches to moveset design.

I mean, then do the Energy Ball attack and leave it at that. It can't be reflected beyond normal moves that can reflect it. But then it's not Dead Man's Volley. It has a given name due to exactly what it's meant to be. You have a canonical reference with the Energy Ball/Blue Balls, so problem solved. It's why I've suggested it as a more logical approach than massive changes.

However, the point of this thread was to ask for how to handle Dead Man's Volley, not the generic projectile alone. So I answered accurately to the actual move being talked about.

 

[Quillion]

Yes. Because it represents one move, where you're talking about two separate moves. The animations are just used for another move beyond Warlock Punch.

Now I'm just getting confused here; is Ganondorf throwing an energy ball really two separate moves? Should I have just used "Ganondorf throwing a one-handed energy ball"? If it's the latter, again, pedantic.

No, the real DMV is reflecting an energy projectile with specific means. That's the only one that matters in Zelda. Those definitions don't have any relevance.

Sorry, I should've said definition of "volley".

Still, convenient enough shorthand.

Call it Energy Ball and leave it at that.

I mean, then do the Energy Ball attack and leave it at that. It can't be reflected beyond normal moves that can reflect it. But then it's not Dead Man's Volley. It has a given name due to exactly what it's meant to be. You have a canonical reference with the Energy Ball/Blue Balls, so problem solved. It's why I've suggested it as a more logical approach than massive changes.

However, the point of this thread was to ask for how to handle Dead Man's Volley, not the generic projectile alone. So I answered accurately to the actual move being talked about.

Eh, we'd just have to ask Jotari if he's using "Dead Man's Volley" to refer to the reflection property or the ball itself since he's the one making the topic.

But other than that, I do think Ganondorf's current design doesn't support a projectile, and doing something like Crusade's 0.9.4 overhaul, while that's a good balance for the most part, comes across as making Sephiroth a heavyweight and therefore making him overpowered. My personal preference is still give Warlock Punch a weak reflecting "tap" variant and be done with that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Now I'm just getting confused here; is Ganondorf throwing an energy ball really two separate moves? Should I have just used "Ganondorf throwing a one-handed energy ball"? If it's the latter, again, pedantic.

Warlock Punch is based upon one move that has a partial kicking animation but mainly a punching animation. Said kicking animation is lightly used for Warlock Kick.

Dead Man's Volley is the specific charged up move that Link reflects back with his Sword and Bottle at best(in OOT), while the other energy ball cannot be reflected outside of a spin attack. Saying they're not separate moves when they hold very different properties is silly.

It's like saying Mario and Luigi's Fireballs in Smash are the same move. They're not. They have unique properties.

Sorry, I should've said definition of "volley".

Still, convenient enough shorthand.

It isn't. It's convenient only for something that is meant to be sent back to the user as the core base of gameplay, the reason it was named Dead Man's Volley. If that's not its core purpose, it loses meaning as a term and is much closer to the separate move used. I'd like to note DMV is officially defined in the Zelda games, specifically as a "game of volley". To further quote;

"If you want to save Tetra, you'll have to play a match of dead man's volley first! So... Are you a big enough boy to return these volleys?" — Cubus Sisters (Phantom Hourglass)

Eh, we'd just have to ask Jotari if he's using "Dead Man's Volley" to refer to the reflection property or the ball itself since he's the one making the topic.

But other than that, I do think Ganondorf's current design doesn't support a projectile, and doing something like Crusade's 0.9.4 overhaul, while that's a good balance for the most part, comes across as making Sephiroth a heavyweight and therefore making him overpowered. My personal preference is still give Warlock Punch a weak reflecting "tap" variant and be done with that.

I agree it doesn't fit him that well, mind you.

But yeah, we'll see how Jotari feels.

 

[Quillion]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : Still think you're being pedantic, but let's just stop here on the "definition" discussion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : Still think you're being pedantic, but let's just stop here on the "definition" discussion.

How can they be the same move if they have entirely different functions, and a different projectile isn't still name Dead Man's Volley. At no point are they described as legitimately similar. In order for them to be variations of the same move, they need to be backed up with data from the games themselves. Unless you can find a proper datamine, you're basically trying to define something using an illogical definition.

You're simply wrong about how it works. Which isn't a problem anyway. There is no "agree to disagree". Sometimes people are wrong and that's okay. Let it go and move on. Combining them into a single move has already been suggested anyway, which isn't a problem as long as it's handled well. Albeit, I agree keeping them hard separate in practice, but regardless. It's not the first nor the last time. And yes, the point behind those examples were to show that they can use a move similar but actually different in Smash. Because it fits Smash better. If they don't want to use DMV but the other slightly similar projectile, sure. If you think that fits better, sure. But that's why we don't call it DMV because it's functionally a different move at the end of the day.

It's not like Smash constantly gives the incorrect move names, anyway. If at all. Nearly every move is very properly named for its purpose. And a move that isn't about volleying a projectile back and forth sounds pretty... odd for people to understand if it has it in its name. For a quick example, let's take a look at Link's Sword. Now let's call said Master Sword a Rapier. That's the equivalent of what you're saying should happen. Two functionally different things just for the sake of "sounding good" while being super inaccurate. Moves are named based upon the concept they actually make sense within with their function is. So no, it makes no sense to call it DMV unless the core purpose is reflecting it, the entire concept of the move. And there's good reasons why they wouldn't call it that(besides the fact the move didn't exist as a proper name literally till Smash 4, no less. So it would've never been used as a name no matter what).

 

[Quillion]

How can they be the same move if they have entirely different functions, and a different projectile isn't still name Dead Man's Volley. At no point are they described as legitimately similar. In order for them to be variations of the same move, they need to be backed up with data from the games themselves. Unless you can find a proper datamine, you're basically trying to define something using an illogical definition.

You're simply wrong about how it works. Which isn't a problem anyway. There is no "agree to disagree". Sometimes people are wrong and that's okay. Let it go and move on. Combining them into a single move has already been suggested anyway, which isn't a problem as long as it's handled well. Albeit, I agree keeping them hard separate in practice, but regardless. It's not the first nor the last time. And yes, the point behind those examples were to show that they can use a move similar but actually different in Smash. Because it fits Smash better. If they don't want to use DMV but the other slightly similar projectile, sure. If you think that fits better, sure. But that's why we don't call it DMV because it's functionally a different move at the end of the day.

It's not like Smash constantly gives the incorrect move names, anyway. If at all. Nearly every move is very properly named for its purpose. And a move that isn't about volleying a projectile back and forth sounds pretty... odd for people to understand if it has it in its name. For a quick example, let's take a look at Link's Sword. Now let's call said Master Sword a Rapier. That's the equivalent of what you're saying should happen. Two functionally different things just for the sake of "sounding good" while being super inaccurate. Moves are named based upon the concept they actually make sense within with their function is. So no, it makes no sense to call it DMV unless the core purpose is reflecting it, the entire concept of the move. And there's good reasons why they wouldn't call it that(besides the fact the move didn't exist as a proper name literally till Smash 4, no less. So it would've never been used as a name no matter what).

Still being pedantic.

I really don't give a stool what people call it. Tennis boss fights are just a recurring feature of the Zelda series, sometimes associated with some incarnation of Ganon, and for that I can see why people want some reference to the move, as much of a bad moveset design decision it would be giving it to Ganondorf.

But even if I agree with you on Ganondorf's moveset design not supporting a projectile, you keep confounding and frustrating discussion on that topic by trying to meticulously correct others on what "Dead Man's Volley" means, like you do on that other thread when it comes up.

Anyway, I got my answer from the question I asked you, and I don't care if I'm wrongly using a phrase. People call people they don't like female dogs regardless of gender after all.

 

[Jotari]

Second, if it isn't very easy to reflect or deflect by most, it's not Dead Man's Volley. Use a different name for it only in that case. Now, onto how to fix it up.

I actually highly doubt that, if Ganondorf ever gets a projectile, it actually will be called Dead Man's Volley. That's a term the fanbase has locked onto after it was used in a somewhat niche game in the series that Ganondorf had nothing to do with. It's as good as any other name though, and I do hope they use it, but it's somewhat unlikely, unless they're keenly intune with the English speaking fanbase (or unless the Japanese fanbase have a similar term they've latched on to).

And as far as I feel on the reflection side of things, well, I didn't mention any reflection capabilities in my OP, so it's not that important to me. It was generally about the lightning projectile which I could see being implemented with or without the reflection. Personally I think Ganondorf needs a dedicated reflector of his own more than he needs a dedicated projectile, as it would be more useful for helping him deal with enemy projectiles, but giving him a projectile of his own does seem to be a more popular idea.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I actually highly doubt that, if Ganondorf ever gets a projectile, it actually will be called Dead Man's Volley. That's a term the fanbase has locked onto after it was used in a somewhat niche game in the series that Ganondorf had nothing to do with. It's as good as any other name though, and I do hope they use it, but it's somewhat unlikely, unless they're keenly intune with the English speaking fanbase (or unless the Japanese fanbase have a similar term they've latched on to).

And as far as I feel on the reflection side of things, well, I didn't mention any reflection capabilities in my OP, so it's not that important to me. It was generally about the lightning projectile which I could see being implemented with or without the reflection. Personally I think Ganondorf needs a dedicated reflector of his own more than he needs a dedicated projectile, as it would be more useful for helping him deal with enemy projectiles, but giving him a projectile of his own does seem to be a more popular idea.

The term is hard defined in every way in the Zelda series. Sakurai isn't going to give it a name that is 100% wrong just cause of some fanbase. They don't matter.

No, it's a bad name that is clearly wrong in every way and are going to look for a more internal name at best that's actually accurate. The fanbase latched onto it because it's the actual name of the specific move with a straight function. And they're right. They also don't try to make up a nickname for the other projectile Ganondorf canonically used because it has no name.

The lightning projectile(or blue balls/energy ball) was canonically and always a separate move. We don't see it in every game DMV is in, as it's not part of the boss fight. But they were always used differently at every turn.

Ah, so you wanted to talk about a different projectile than what you named, understood.

With that said, I said my piece and won't participate anymore. I'm not interested in any discussion about DMV if it isn't not actually DMV. You clearly mean his other unnamed projectile(which also has fan nicknames, at least, but still would be given an accurate name based upon real data. Sakurai is actually very serious when he makes moveset names. Every single move is accurate to the stuff used, meaning what you're asking for is... pretty much only going to happen if Sakurai isn't in charge).

 

[Quillion]

You know, maybe Ganondorf's reflecting backhand would make a good parry animation. It'd tie into my idea of making parrying a universal projectile reflector.

 

[Jotari]

The lightning projectile(or blue balls/energy ball) was canonically and always a separate move. We don't see it in every game DMV is in, as it's not part of the boss fight. But they were always used differently at every turn.

Thing is, Dead Man's Volley is only actually in one game. And even looking at that one fight, what's different about it is that the Magus Sisters actually shoot the ball to each other before firing it at Link from the other side of the (dual) screen making it waaaay more like actual volley ball than any other iteration. Conventionally the attack was called Tennis before Phantom Hour Glass showed up.

With that said, I said my piece and won't participate anymore. I'm not interested in any discussion about DMV if it isn't not actually DMV. You clearly mean his other unnamed projectile(which also has fan nicknames, at least, but still would be given an accurate name based upon real data. Sakurai is actually very serious when he makes moveset names. Every single move is accurate to the stuff used, meaning what you're asking for is... pretty much only going to happen if Sakurai isn't in charge).

Hey, just because I don't personally see the reflectability aspect of it as vital, doesn't mean you can't. A reflectable energy ball is a perfectly valid interpretation of giving Ganondorf a projectile. The most important question here is how Ganondorf's projectile would function in his existing Smash Bros moveset.

And as far as moves names go...no...they're not actually accurate all the time. We've had Samus using the non existent Charge Blast for 25 years now when it has always been Charge Beam in her own games. Power Bomb was also an obvious move for her "Mega Bombs" in SSB4. All the Fire Emblem specials have potential source references for their mechanics (ie the rapier or armour slayer for Marth's Shield Breaker) but have completely made up names (other than the generic counter). Snake's Side Special is the "Remote Missile" forgoing the actual name of the weapon in Metal Gear "Nikita" and, for the most part, the non special moves have very generic names even when they have obvious inspiration from real attacks. That's not to say any of it is really Sakurai's fault. You're dealing with different languages over a reference pool of like two dozen games, things are inevitably going to be simplified or misnamed (Samus's neutral special definitely stands out with its age and prominence in her own series though. Technically Samus does no have her basic Charge Shot).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And as far as moves names go...no...they're not actually accurate all the time. We've had Samus using the non existent Charge Blast for 25 years now when it has always been Charge Beam in her own games. Power Bomb was also an obvious move for her "Mega Bombs" in SSB4. All the Fire Emblem specials have potential source references for their mechanics (ie the rapier or armour slayer for Marth's Shield Breaker) but have completely made up names (other than the generic counter). Snake's Side Special is the "Remote Missile" forgoing the actual name of the weapon in Metal Gear "Nikita" and, for the most part, the non special moves have very generic names even when they have obvious inspiration from real attacks. That's not to say any of it is really Sakurai's fault. You're dealing with different languages over a reference pool of like two dozen games, things are inevitably going to be simplified or misnamed (Samus's neutral special definitely stands out with its age and prominence in her own series though. Technically Samus does no have her basic Charge Shot).

Samus' move is actually consistently called Charge Shot. I mean, it's an electrified shot of energy either way. It's called Charge-Beam in at least one language. This isn't really super different from the point. You're shooting energy after you charge it. Various Metroid games sometimes uses "an energy blast" or "an energy shot" to describe it. Smash did coin a different word first. It's not a beam of energy in Smash, so it's probably just a case of "this kind of makes sense".

Bomb and Power Bombs are actually different items, btw. I knew that luckily from tons of playthroughs. Mega Bomb and the word Power Bomb... what's the tangible difference? The thing is, when using unique names, they still fit overall with it. It's a powerful bomb, dealing "mega" damage or having a mega-powerful effect. The idea with some of these names, while not the proper name, is more that they still, well, fit.

For Remote Missile, isn't it a Remote-Controlled one? In that case, the name isn't "wrong" at all. It's not the official name, but it's not an incorrect description of it its purpose.

Dead Man's Volley, keeping in mind it's from a game that Sakurai would research, does understand the purpose of it. Note that while you bring up a good point of how it's used a little differently in PH, to point out, they're reflecting it off of each other... like a volleyball, in order to make it more powerful. You do this in Smash all the time(till the respective item/attack gets too powerful) if you were, to say, use two Foxes, Falcos(until Falco's Reflector is a kick version, so it's a bit harder), Wolf, and so on. Some just have to set up it up better(like Zelda's Nayru's Love). So to be fair, more or less, yes, its first naming still fits the accuracy of it, and it doesn't actually do anything else. You're volleying back and forth. They never, as I said, named said other projectile, but also never used it as if it was DMV, but a different move and function.

Maybe there's some moves that have names that fully are incorrect in describing the move. I should've been clearer my issue is "the move is incorrectly labeled in terms of being accurate to what it does", not whether it was taken from a canon name or not, which ultimately doesn't matter. Some moves are not the canon move and clearly different. Overall, I haven't seen any examples of move names that are severely off from their purpose, while still resembling the original move, despite a slightly inaccurate name. That's what I mean. In the case of DMV, it wouldn't be slightly inaccurate, it's be a completely different function from the original name. You can understand why I consider that a poor way to handle it.

But ignoring those, was there any legitimate issues you had with outright making the normal DMV(as it designed for) dynamic yet balanced? I get it's a lot of work, but due to its premise, I feel it should require a lot to make it feel nice. I'm all for the other slightly similar projectile(well, sometimes), but I don't think it would make sense to replace Warlock Punch with it. You've made some really good points before that Wizard's Foot is an amazing tool, so it's why I came up with the idea that specifically Thunder Punch being used to create his projectile (I'm nicknaming it Thunder Ball for the purpose of our conversation) instead of replacing a really good B move he has(the armor really really helps make it a satisfying and strong move), which doesn't mess with his current playstyle. It'd be identical to your typical projectile, with no special properties. If it hits, it would stun a bit or maybe send people back. Stunning, albeit, is generally how both worked anyway(which I get why some treated them as similar), which leaves a more important part. the reason people like the concept, giving Ganondorf some kind of reflective ability.

 

[Jotari]

Maybe there's some moves that have names that fully are incorrect in describing the move. I should've been clearer my issue is "the move is incorrectly labeled in terms of being accurate to what it does", not whether it was taken from a canon name or not, which ultimately doesn't matter. Some moves are not the canon move and clearly different. Overall, I haven't seen any examples of move names that are severely off from their purpose, while still resembling the original move, despite a slightly inaccurate name. That's what I mean. In the case of DMV, it wouldn't be slightly inaccurate, it's be a completely different function from the original name. You can understand why I consider that a poor way to handle it.

Oh no, Smash certainly does that too. Wolf's up special is called Fire Wolf even though it doesn't have any fire aspect to it at all. Clearly named that way because Fox and Falco have Fire Fox and Fire Bird respectively, but they still went and called it a fire based move when it doesn't have any actual fire whereas the moves it was ripped from did.

But ignoring those, was there any legitimate issues you had with outright making the normal DMV(as it designed for) dynamic yet balanced? I get it's a lot of work, but due to its premise, I feel it should require a lot to make it feel nice. I'm all for the other slightly similar projectile(well, sometimes), but I don't think it would make sense to replace Warlock Punch with it. You've made some really good points before that Wizard's Foot is an amazing tool, so it's why I came up with the idea that specifically Thunder Punch being used to create his projectile (I'm nicknaming it Thunder Ball for the purpose of our conversation) instead of replacing a really good B move he has(the armor really really helps make it a satisfying and strong move), which doesn't mess with his current playstyle. It'd be identical to your typical projectile, with no special properties. If it hits, it would stun a bit or maybe send people back. Stunning, albeit, is generally how both worked anyway(which I get why some treated them as similar), which leaves a more important part. the reason people like the concept, giving Ganondorf some kind of reflective ability.

Look, I like Warlock Punch and I do think it could be workable. The armour it's got is nice and, imo, it should be given even more armour so that it's like Ryu's Focus Attack. I am attached to the move, have used it successfully and I do want it to stay, but it is definitely Ganondorf's worst move. Not just his worst special, but his overall worst move. Even his Up Tilt is better. If Ganondorf is to get a projectile I think it should be as a custom special, but if there's no custom specials then replacing Warlock Punch is the obviously sensible move to change. Taking away Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke would hurt him significantly in ways that Warlock Punch simply wouldn't. Even if Warlock Punch was made to be really good and functional, it would still not be doing much that he can't already do with a forward or up smash, so even under a hypothetical not-awful-warlock-punch world, it would still be the best move to replace. Unless you want to try and implement a projectile into his up special.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh no, Smash certainly does that too. Wolf's up special is called Fire Wolf even though it doesn't have any fire aspect to it at all. Clearly named that way because Fox and Falco have Fire Fox and Fire Bird respectively, but they still went and called it a fire based move when it doesn't have any actual fire whereas the moves it was ripped from did.

My first thought is "oh, he's firing off into another direction like the rest", which... actually is a decently accepted idea, at least on SmashWiki. It's called Wolf Shoot in Japan. It's not a great game, agreed, but I can kind of see where it was coming from. I think the issue is they had no way to really match it well with other similar moves. Wolf Shoot is arguably kind of bad too?

Look, I like Warlock Punch and I do think it could be workable. The armour it's got is nice and, imo, it should be given even more armour so that it's like Ryu's Focus Attack. I am attached to the move, have used it successfully and I do want it to stay, but it is definitely Ganondorf's worst move. Not just his worst special, but his overall worst move. Even his Up Tilt is better. If Ganondorf is to get a projectile I think it should be as a custom special, but if there's no custom specials then replacing Warlock Punch is the obviously sensible move to change. Taking away Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke would hurt him significantly in ways that Warlock Punch simply wouldn't. Even if Warlock Punch was made to be really good and functional, it would still not be doing much that he can't already do with a forward or up smash, so even under a hypothetical not-awful-warlock-punch world, it would still be the best move to replace. Unless you want to try and implement a projectile into his up special.

I'd argue Warlock Punch's super armor immediately makes it better than Up Tilt. Up Tilt cannot even be decently used, though. Like, how? It's just that bad. You're super vulnerable and anyone attacking only is pulled into your range. I honestly don't know how it's remotely better?

Anyway, as I said, I feel the move is much better for him left on. With only Dark Dive just... not fitting or flowing. There's bound to be other options. Was something wrong with Dark Fists?

But to get back on-topic, since I'm less worried about Warlock Punch being replaced, you didn't more or less reply to any of my thoughts on the actual move properties, whether it's DMV or his other projectile.

 

[Jotari]

My first thought is "oh, he's firing off into another direction like the rest", which... actually is a decently accepted idea, at least on SmashWiki. It's called Wolf Shoot in Japan. It's not a great game, agreed, but I can kind of see where it was coming from. I think the issue is they had no way to really match it well with other similar moves. Wolf Shoot is arguably kind of bad too?

Indeed, as he's not actually being shot out of anything. My overall point is that there's no reason to really get hung up on names, and that's a perfect example of it. On the other hand, while I do have slightly more preference for getting hung up on continuity, I don't think it matters as much either compared to making an actually functional attack. Just look at Din's Fire. It has the name, but works noting like it does in Ocarina of Time. The nitpicker in me wants to rename it Bombos, as the ALTTP Spell at least does resemble it a bit more (though ultimately that do is an AOE attack), but the attack itself is functionally fine (even if in a few game sin the series it hasn't been as good as it should).

I'd argue Warlock Punch's super armor immediately makes it better than Up Tilt. Up Tilt cannot even be decently used, though. Like, how? It's just that bad. You're super vulnerable and anyone attacking only is pulled into your range. I honestly don't know how it's remotely better?

You can ledge guard with it.

But to get back on-topic, since I'm less worried about Warlock Punch being replaced, you didn't more or less reply to any of my thoughts on the actual move properties, whether it's DMV or his other projectile.

Well that's because you didn't really actually explain much of the attack and how it actually functions for Ganondorf. Only its interactions with other characters. When it comes to making the attack reflectable, it's certainly possible to have an attack that be defelcted with normal hitboxes, Gordo proves that, but I don't actually want that for Ganondorf. Because I would look at this from a Ganondorf perspective, and I don't want enemies tossing my attack back at me. That makes it an overall worse move and a danger to use. For Dedede it works, as Dedede can swallow and reflect back his own Gordo's pretty easily, but Ganondorf would have much more trouble, especially if he can only do it with his own sword. Even extending it to all hitboxes, or only all hitboxes for Ganondorf, this would put him in a more disadvantageous state, as his high commitment attacks would make it harder for him to deflect than most. Even giving a reflector to replace the beam once the attacked is used probably wouldn't satisfy me, as I would want the reflector more than the projectile, and just general, Ganondorf's manouverability is still going to make other characters have easier time reflecting it, unless he has some kind of auto reflector wherein Ganondorf reflects the attack automatically without any player input. But that would just encourage other characters to not reflect it at all, defying the whole point. Only way I'd really be happy would be if he had a dedicated reflector on another special move, but then you're changing two special moves all for the sake of an element to one attack.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Indeed, as he's not actually being shot out of anything. My overall point is that there's no reason to really get hung up on names, and that's a perfect example of it. On the other hand, while I do have slightly more preference for getting hung up on continuity, I don't think it matters as much either compared to making an actually functional attack. Just look at Din's Fire. It has the name, but works noting like it does in Ocarina of Time. The nitpicker in me wants to rename it Bombos, as the ALTTP Spell at least does resemble it a bit more (though ultimately that do is an AOE attack), but the attack itself is functionally fine (even if in a few game sin the series it hasn't been as good as it should).

However, even in those cases, they aren't completely weird names. You shoot in a direction, or fire off in a direction. In the end, the name can still be applied. ...It just doesn't work with DMV because it's actually very clear.

You can ledge guard with it.

Anyway, as I said, I feel the move is much better for him left on. With only Dark Dive just... not fitting or flowing. There's bound to be other options. Was something wrong with Dark Fists?

No. I was suggesting Dark Fists, actually. on average as the best option if we're using customs. Otherwise, I'm not against the idea of using a teleport. I can't say it flows well, though, but I get why some like it. However, I'd rather just give him a move that is faster and doesn't leave him vulnerable for an Up Tilt. Warlock Punch I won't lie, I've found more effective as an overall tool and much easier to hit with. YMMV, though.

Well that's because you didn't really actually explain much of the attack and how it actually functions for Ganondorf. Only its interactions with other characters. When it comes to making the attack reflectable, it's certainly possible to have an attack that be defelcted with normal hitboxes, Gordo proves that, but I don't actually want that for Ganondorf. Because I would look at this from a Ganondorf perspective, and I don't want enemies tossing my attack back at me. That makes it an overall worse move and a danger to use. For Dedede it works, as Dedede can swallow and reflect back his own Gordo's pretty easily, but Ganondorf would have much more trouble, especially if he can only do it with his own sword. Even extending it to all hitboxes, or only all hitboxes for Ganondorf, this would put him in a more disadvantageous state, as his high commitment attacks would make it harder for him to deflect than most.

Then yeah, I stand leaving it at the original energy ball and forgetting about DMV entirely. It doesn't really work very well in the end.

Though to be fair, I was trying to figure out a way so it's handle the volley aspect accurately and in a fun manner. I did say I wasn't sure of its speed, etc., but I get what you mean.

Otherwise, I got no clue how to properly make DMV work. The energy ball? Yes. I already spoke of how to use it a bit. I'm cool with giving him something to help reflect a few moves, though. Easily his Thunder Punch works well, but it's hard to say on what other moves. His Side Tilt wouldn't work well due to its very straightforward nature, but his Forward Air. His Forward Smash is a given to be able to do so, due to the immense power of the swing. You could lightly justify it otherwise with maybe a taunt or something? If it involves the sword, it makes some sense.

(I'll just clear it up I won't be talking about DMV in general beyond this. I'm pretty set it doesn't work as a name or move unless it's about the reflective properties specifically. So better to not include me in that particular talk. I'll talk about his other projectile and its usage, since that's something I'm for).

 

[Oracle Link]

Again if the whole thing is that much of an issue for old GDorf Fans might i suggest playing Blackshadow in a new game!
(Of course that depends on if FZero gets a news char!)

 

[Jotari]

However, even in those cases, they aren't completely weird names. You shoot in a direction, or fire off in a direction. In the end, the name can still be applied. ...It just doesn't work with DMV because it's actually very clear.

It's not though. Volley has two meanings, neither of which are actually applicable to this situation. It either refers to a bunch of things being shot at once (ie a volley of arrows) or hitting something before it hit's the ground.

No. I was suggesting Dark Fists, actually. on average as the best option if we're using customs. Otherwise, I'm not against the idea of using a teleport. I can't say it flows well, though, but I get why some like it. However, I'd rather just give him a move that is faster and doesn't leave him vulnerable for an Up Tilt. Warlock Punch I won't lie, I've found more effective as an overall tool and much easier to hit with. YMMV, though.

You're actually responding to yourself there. I didn't say anything about Dark Fists, it was part of your comment mistakenly left out of my quote. In as far as Dark Fists goes to this conversation, kind of irrelevant.

Though to be fair, I was trying to figure out a way so it's handle the volley aspect accurately and in a fun manner. I did say I wasn't sure of its speed, etc., but I get what you mean.

You mean the deflection aspect. Because that's not what volley means.

(I'll just clear it up I won't be talking about DMV in general beyond this. I'm pretty set it doesn't work as a name or move unless it's about the reflective properties specifically. So better to not include me in that particular talk. I'll talk about his other projectile and its usage, since that's something I'm for).

As I said, you're completely free to talk about a reflective version here if you want. I am not in any way saying "DEAD MAN'S VOLLEY CAN"T REFLECT!" It's a perfectly valid interpretation of the attack. We could talk about him tossing a crown like King K Rool for all it actually matters. It's about the functionality of a projectile on Ganondorf. That's what's important.

Now, onto something else you said, I do think Young Link being able to reflect it with a bottle is a great idea, but I'd rather that just be an aspect of Young Link's taunt, the ability to reflect all projectiles, and not just Ganondorf's. Not only would it serve the same reference if the bottle taunt could reflect projectiles, but it would actually be a very interesting aspect to his taunt, as reflecting projectiles isn't something Young Link can otherwise do giving it a specific advantage. At the same time, it's such a stupid long taunt that trying to use it for that purpose would be super risky, but also super satisfying if you can pull it off.

Again if the whole thing is that much of an issue for old GDorf Fans might i suggest playing Blackshadow in a new game!
(Of course that depends on if FZero gets a news char!)

But Black Shadow doesn't use any of Ganodnorf's attacks. Ganondorf does.

 

[Oracle Link]

It's not though. Volley has two meanings, neither of which are actually applicable to this situation. It either refers to a bunch of things being shot at once (ie a volley of arrows) or hitting something before it hit's the ground.

You're actually responding to yourself there. I didn't say anything about Dark Fists, it was part of your comment mistakenly left out of my quote. In as far as Dark Fists goes to this conversation, kind of irrelevant.

You mean the deflection aspect. Because that's not what volley means.


As I said, you're completely free to talk about a reflective version here if you want. I am not in any way saying "DEAD MAN'S VOLLEY CAN"T REFLECT!" It's a perfectly valid interpretation of the attack. We could talk about him tossing a crown like King K Rool for all it actually matters. It's about the functionality of a projectile on Ganondorf. That's what's important.

Now, onto something else you said, I do think Young Link being able to reflect it with a bottle is a great idea, but I'd rather that just be an aspect of Young Link's taunt, the ability to reflect all projectiles, and not just Ganondorf's. Not only would it serve the same reference if the bottle taunt could reflect projectiles, but it would actually be a very interesting aspect to his taunt, as reflecting projectiles isn't something Young Link can otherwise do giving it a specific advantage. At the same time, it's such a stupid long taunt that trying to use it for that purpose would be super risky, but also super satisfying if you can pull it off.

But Black Shadow doesn't use any of Ganodnorf's attacks. Ganondorf does.

You know i meant have Ganondorf with all canonical bells and whistles! and Black Shadow for those who liked his old playstyle!

 

[Jotari]

You know i meant have Ganondorf with all canonical bells and whistles! and Black Shadow for those who liked his old playstyle!

Sure, but Black Shadow never used any of Ganondorf's Smash attacks either.

 

[Oracle Link]

Sure, but Black Shadow never used any of Ganondorf's Smash attacks either.

Yeah but those were added in Ultimate for anyone who wants to play Pre Ultimate GDORF Black shadow works fine!
Also some of Toon links Attacks got changed to so yeah!

 

[Jotari]

Yeah but those were added in Ultimate for anyone who wants to play Pre Ultimate GDORF Black shadow works fine!
Also some of Toon links Attacks got changed to so yeah!

Black Shadow has never used Ganondorf's Brawl or SSB4 attacks either though.

 

[Quillion]

You know i meant have Ganondorf with all canonical bells and whistles!

What kind of "canonical bells and whistles" do you even want on Ganondorf? Ganon in any one form is always so different from the next in terms of both moves and character that any potential portrayal he would get in Melee would be outdated by the next game.

And before you say "combine them all", that would create a gigantic mess of random animations for the sake of being "canonical".

 

[Oracle Link]

What kind of "canonical bells and whistles" do you even want on Ganondorf? Ganon in any one form is always so different from the next in terms of both moves and character that any potential portrayal he would get in Melee would be outdated by the next game.

And before you say "combine them all", that would create a gigantic mess of random animations for the sake of being "canonical".

Easy Just give him 2d Ganons Moveset thats incredibly Consistent! He Swings his Trident, He SPawns Bats from it, Deadmans Volley (I mean Yuganon uses it), Teleports and Boomerang Trident Tosses and maybe throw some of Gdorfs Magic attacks in there from the 3d Games! See he has only 1 Weapon and some Magic calling that cluttered is a bit untrue isnt it!

 

[Jotari]

What kind of "canonical bells and whistles" do you even want on Ganondorf? Ganon in any one form is always so different from the next in terms of both moves and character that any potential portrayal he would get in Melee would be outdated by the next game.

And before you say "combine them all", that would create a gigantic mess of random animations for the sake of being "canonical".

Easy Just give him 2d Ganons Moveset thats incredibly Consistent! He Swings his Trident, He SPawns Bats from it, Deadmans Volley (I mean Yuganon uses it), Teleports and Boomerang Trident Tosses and maybe throw some of Gdorfs Magic attacks in there from the 3d Games! See he has only 1 Weapon and some Magic calling that cluttered is a bit untrue isnt it!

Obviously the solution there is to make the 2D Ganon character an actual fighter on the roster. But can we not derail this into a Ganondorf overhaul thread? I specifically made the OP specifying Warlock Punch's removal and everything staying the same so it wouldn't be a Ganon overhaul thread. The scope is how one attack, a projectile (under whatever name you want to give it) would work for Ganondorf, as he is now.

 

[Oracle Link]

Obviously the solution there is to make the 2D Ganon character an actual fighter on the roster. But can we not derail this into a Ganondorf overhaul thread? I specifically made the OP specifying Warlock Punch's removal and everything staying the same so it wouldn't be a Ganon overhaul thread. The scope is how one attack, a projectile (under whatever name you want to give it) would work for Ganondorf, as he is now.

Yeah i can stop with that to get back on Track i want a Reflectable Dead Mans Volley!

 

[Quillion]

Yeah i can stop with that to get back on Track i want a Reflectable Dead Mans Volley!

How would you feel if if DK got a barrel throw?

 

[FazDude]

I think Dead Man's Volley could work in Smash; It just probably wouldn't be best as the really fast projectile it is in the Zelda games, and the tennis aspect of it would probably be undermined (though still present).

I imagine DMV being similar to a Hadoken, being a slower, but larger projectile. It's more of a pressure tool than a zoning tool. It can still be reflected to boost its speed and power, but Ganondorf probably won't be playing full-on tennis matches midgame. I feel that fits his playstyle more than just saying "here parry this light orb or you die".

(Side note: I think DMV would work well as a tap variant of the Warlock Punch, with the punch being a held variant or something to take the place of DMV when one's already out.)

 

[Aligo]

A really dumb idea, but if DMV is reflectable, ganondorf up taunt should reflect it as his cape spins.