Official Frostbite 2019 Thread

[Gearkeeper-8a]

as you can see pocket characters doesn't seem very effective in this game, work in your character and practice matchups.

 

[Rizen]

I should be happy 's not doing anything; he might dodge the nerf bat and end up top tier through power creep.

 

[ATH_]

Frostbite 2019 Top 8

Winners Side:
MKLeo vs Myran
Tweek vs Cosmos

Losers Side:
Nairo vs Shuton
MVD vs Light

HYPE!!!

 

[The_Bookworm]

MVD 3-1 Lea
RIP Froggy's chance into getting into top 8.

Nairo 3-2 Shoyo James
This was a really close set, but Nairo literally won every time they went to PS2. Amazing loser's run from Shoyo nevertheless.

 

[Frihetsanka]

as you can see pocket characters doesn't seem very effective in this game, work in your character and practice matchups.

If you're playing a top tier or even a high tier, chances are you'll have no really bad matchups. Having a secondary early in the meta could be a decent investment though since you don't know if your main is going to get nerfed hard or not, and if they do you might want to consider switching mains, you could then main your secondary instead.

Unless both your main and secondary get nerfed, then you're really unlucky I guess.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I literally just realized right now: sometimes when VoiD goes on stream with Nairo, VoiD would trash talk about Chrom (who personally prefers Roy).

Once again, the talk-character-trash into getting bodied by said character, is indeed a true combo. lol

 

[ATH_]

Making generalized statements like "pocket characters aren't effective" is a very counterproductive way to think about the game.

I can't tell if you're referring to Secondaries or Pocket Characters as in a third or fourth character you only bust out to surprise your opponent or for one specific match up.

In the case of secondaries, they're meant to cover match ups. At the high level you may not see this work as well (though Genesis 6 Grand Finals is a great example of a secondary working flawlessly) but it can work in top cut and on a local level.

Pocket characters are usually entirely present for the sake of surprising an opponent with an unfamiliar match up. Some sort of tech your opponent doesn't know or kill confirm that catches them off guard and can net you a free stock because they were unprepared. That's worked before, but it entirely relies on your opponent's knowledge (or lack thereof) of the game. Top 8 currently has 3 players with notable secondaries (that I know about at least). The only players I know about in top 8 with pocket characters are Nairo and Leo but I wouldn't expect them to do anything super risky like that.

Maybe Leo will pull Wolf out but I doubt it with the current opposition.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Making generalized statements like "pocket characters aren't effective" is a very counterproductive way to think about the game.

I can't tell if you're referring to Secondaries or Pocket Characters as in a third or fourth character you only bust out to surprise your opponent or for one specific match up.

In the case of secondaries, they're meant to cover match ups. At the high level you may not see this work as well (though Genesis 6 Grand Finals is a great example of a secondary working flawlessly) but it can work in top cut and on a local level.

Pocket characters are usually entirely present for the sake of surprising an opponent with an unfamiliar match up. Some sort of tech your opponent doesn't know or kill confirm that catches them off guard and can net you a free stock because they were unprepared. That's worked before, but it entirely relies on your opponent's knowledge (or lack thereof) of the game. Top 8 currently has 3 players with notable secondaries (that I know about at least). The only players I know about in top 8 with pocket characters are Nairo and Leo but I wouldn't expect them to do anything super risky like that.

Maybe Leo will pull Wolf out but I doubt it with the current opposition.

i was referring to pocket characters in the same way of smash 4 cloud and prepatch sheik, an easy character that gatekeeps mid tiers and some high tiers with good fundamentals, secondaries now that is another thing.

 

[ATH_]

i was referring to pocket characters in the same way of smash 4 cloud and prepatch sheik, an easy character that gatekeeps mid tiers and some high tiers with good fundamentals, secondaries now that is another thing.

Okay, I don't know if the term Pocket is a good one to use there but it doesn't really matter. Sure, many pockets are typically like that (easy to pick up) but that's making the definition quite specific.

I do agree though, it doesn't look like people picking up Wolf/Pichu for the sake of picking them up has really worked out too well. Not a single Pichu in Top 8, only two Wolf players in top 8 and they aren't Wolf mains.

 

[Vierge]

I disliked how Coney was wearing his hoodie zipped half-way during the crew battle, like it was cool or ironically uncool instead of just plain stupid

 

[Cheryl~]

Light vs MVD... what a set. The last two games were some of the most intense last-hit scenario games I’ve ever seen, both players did amazing and both of them showed off their character’s prowess very well. (MVD’s Snake is seriously incredible.)

 

[Iridium]

And Shuton 3-2 Nairo with a reverse 3-0 to remain Japan's sole hope. I want him to take it all.

 

[NotLiquid]

There were so many times when Cosmos should've won yet he fell into a sloppy read by Tweek

I'm sad, but hopefully he can still live on in losers bracket

 

[KakuCP9]

Bruh. Light straight up 3 stocked Myran :o

Edit: Myran brought it back 3-2.

 

[Xquirtle]

Note: If you stream and want tons of free subs, get some meme emotes rolling. Chat is lovvvving all of these Olimars and his balanced damage output / easy to follow gameplay.

 

[ATH_]

First DK comes out, then Richter from Shuton??? What is going ON?!?!?

Love Frostbite holy ****.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I am not watching the tourney, but I am seeing the brackets. However, I can already imagine Twitch Chat already during the Olimar ditto. XD

First DK comes out, then Richter from Shuton??? What is going ON?!?!?

Love Frostbite holy ****.

Considering that Shuton lost to Myran in the Olimar ditto earlier, might as well try your hand out with the Richter.

Edit: Well the Richter almost worked. Good effort though.

 

[KakuCP9]

Olimar looking like the Melee puff of Ultimate and I'm loving it.
I welcome our lord and savior.

 

[Xquirtle]

Leo trying to warm up the Luci for tweek?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Olimar looking like the Melee puff of Ultimate and I'm loving it.
I welcome our lord and savior.

One big exception: only one Melee Puff makes it to top 8. Two Olimars entered top 8 in this tournament.

.... Jokes aside, I can definitely see the connection.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

One big exception: only one Melee Puff makes it to top 8. Two Olimars entered top 8 in this tournament.

.... Jokes aside, I can definitely see the connection.

there is not connection olimar can be played both ofensive and defensive anb be effective, puff optimal gameplan is going full bait and punish.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Olimar looking like the Melee puff of Ultimate and I'm loving it.
I welcome our lord and savior.

Lord and savior? He's looking more like Brawl ICs to me.... a monster only being kept in check by one (probably 2-3 in this case) key MUs where they struggle. Beyond that they stomp over everyone when they show up. Don't show up as often as their power level says they should due to the technical floor required. And thank goodness for that.

 

[Xquirtle]

Lord and savior? He's looking more like Brawl ICs to me.... a monster only being kept in check by one (probably 2-3 in this case) key MUs where they struggle. Beyond that they stomp over everyone when they show up. Don't show up as often as their power level says they should due to the technical floor required. And thank goodness for that.

That and hes just not fun to play. Like the Bayo problem went wayyyy further because she looked sick AF and felt great to play. Olimar is about as derp as they come and he basically gets zero style points (which attracts players one way or another).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Congrats Tweek on taking Frostbite 2019!

 

[Frihetsanka]

Olimar looking like the Melee puff of Ultimate and I'm loving it.
I welcome our lord and savior.

Regardless of whatever people may feel about Olimar, I sure hope the community strives to not be toxic towards Olimar players. No need to repeat the mistakes of previous games.

 

[Lore]

I hope the same, but I'm sadly doubtful that people won't be toxic. It's how online culture is nowadays, unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong; the internet has always been the Wild West. I love it. But it feels lately like it has become a bit more hateful, a bit more negative, and a bit more miserable. I don't know why.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I hope the same, but I'm sadly doubtful that people won't be toxic. It's how online culture is nowadays, unfortunately.

Twitch hate can be banned by mods (to a large extent), Twitter hate can be dealt with (to some extent) by people speaking up against hate and toxicity. If every time someone posts something hateful or toxic they're met with ten people telling them why that's bad, then that'd serve as a negative reinforcement, which probably would help dissuade at least some of the haters. It might not help with DMs much though, I'm unsure how to deal with that.

I'd like to talk about Captain Zack a little right now. Even for those who thought he deserved some of the hate he got in Smash 4 (he didn't), I see little reason why they should continue hating him now. He no longer plays Bayonetta, he no longer dances, he's no longer all that active on Twitter, he doesn't really do anything that warrants hate from what I can see. For those who thought that his previous behavior was bad, well, he's changed his behavior and even his character. There's no need to keep hating him (not that there ever was).

 

[Sean²]

First DK comes out, then Richter from Shuton??? What is going ON?!?!?

Love Frostbite holy ****.

Here's to more hype character switches in the rest of 2019. That whole set was a highlight reel in and of itself.

 

[Lore]

Twitch hate can be banned by mods (to a large extent), Twitter hate can be dealt with (to some extent) by people speaking up against hate and toxicity. If every time someone posts something hateful or toxic they're met with ten people telling them why that's bad, then that'd serve as a negative reinforcement, which probably would help dissuade at least some of the haters. It might not help with DMs much though, I'm unsure how to deal with that.

I'd like to talk about Captain Zack a little right now. Even for those who thought he deserved some of the hate he got in Smash 4 (he didn't), I see little reason why they should continue hating him now. He no longer plays Bayonetta, he no longer dances, he's no longer all that active on Twitter, he doesn't really do anything that warrants hate from what I can see. For those who thought that his previous behavior was bad, well, he's changed his behavior and even his character. There's no need to keep hating him (not that there ever was).

I think a lot of it is that people rarely, if ever, back down or apologize when they are wrong. They tend to just double down or shrug it off. When they get shamed by 10 people, they just move on to the next hot topic or post.

The harassment of Captain Zack, in particular, is absolutely ridiculous. It's insane to me how many people are happy to hop on that hate train.

If he did stuff outside of playing Bayonetta and taunting, I'm unaware. If that's all there was, it's ridiculous that the harassment happened in the first place.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If he did stuff outside of playing Bayonetta and taunting, I'm unaware. If that's all there was, it's ridiculous that the harassment happened in the first place.

Captain Zack made some stupid tweets (like calling other Bayonetta players "carried" and such), and him and Lima did some things at Grand Finals EVO 2018, he also flipped off the audience at EVO after having been booed and harassed for all day. None of it nearly bad enough to justify the harassment and toxicity he (and certainly many other Bayonetta players as well) had to deal with.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

So, post-frostbite talks. In my opinion, I think the things to take away are:
1. We cannot definitively find a best character at this time
2. Peach/Daisy was overrated going into this tournament.
3. Mario is mid-tier and not likely to move around a lot if he doesn't get a lot of buffs.
4. Incineroar looked scary starting out, but his movement is really weighing his down
5. Snake is high tier if played correctly.
6. Fox is better than Falco.
7. Ike is still good.
8. We still don't know who the best swordsman is.
9. This is the greatest % of viable fighters in any smash game except for 64.
10. Pichu is better than Pikachu.
11. Roy is worse than Chrom, but still very good.
12. People either don't know the Olimar matchup, or he is a force to be reckoned with.
13. Upsets can still happen just as frequently in SSBU as Smash 4, even though we have switched to 3 stocks. (See 8BitMan, Dark Wizzy, ESAM, Samsora)
14. About now is the point in the metagame where non-ROB heavies are falling in viability just based on pure frame data.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

This was a super solid tournament to watch. I especially enjoyed the Japanese players' success (Shuton's Richter was hype and Lea's Greninja was such a treat). The top 8 was amazing (3/4 went to Game 5 situations!!!). One of the coolest things was the Grand Finals between MKLeo and Tweek; it was what the fans wanted! I know it's still super early but it's great to see the early formation of an epic rivalry for "best in Smash Ultimate" with these two.

 

[Nathannnnn]

Notable Upsets for Far:

saj 1-2 Ronin (saj made it out from phase 1 pools from loser's)
Shoyo James 1-2 DRN (Shoyo made it out from phase 1 pools from loser's)
SDX 0-2 Pelca (SDX made it out from phase 1 pools from loser's)
Tsu 1-2 Ronin (Tsu made it out from phase 1 pools from loser's)
VoiD 2-1 Komota (I know VoiD is the victor, but Komota was so dang close into beating him.)


Pelca, probably more known for his Falco in Brawl, is on fire today.
Tsu was about to secure an easy game 3, but he choked harder than I have ever seen in my life, and Ronin ended up getting a 3 stock comeback.
Komota was so freaking close into securing the upset against VoiD. Each of their games was last stock, last hit.

 

[Nathannnnn]

I feel shook when Shuton lost to Myran. Shuton was the true winner.

 

[ATH_]

Another thing to take away from the tournament is that we need a more balanced stage list. I posted about this in the stage thread but I wanted to give a tl;dr here:

Out of the 9 stages at Frostbite 4 of them are considered Open or Wide stages, these stage typically favor characters like Wolf, Pichu, Olimar, Snake, Inkling, and have been up for debate about whether or not the reason said characters are outperforming others SO well is because many lists have been unbalanced.

3 of the open/wide stages are in the Starters alone. PS2/T&C/FD. When you can only strike 2 stages, you're guaranteed to get a starter that favors you game 1 unless you're going against another top tier (hence, one reason we don't see pichu/wolf in top cut).

If you'd like more info drop by the stage thread and give your thoughts or questions. It's a complicated deal, but really it's solvable by lots of ways.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, post-frostbite talks. In my opinion, I think the things to take away are:
1. We cannot definitively find a best character at this time
2. Peach/Daisy was overrated going into this tournament.
3. Mario is mid-tier and not likely to move around a lot if he doesn't get a lot of buffs.
4. Incineroar looked scary starting out, but his movement is really weighing his down
5. Snake is high tier if played correctly.
6. Fox is better than Falco.
7. Ike is still good.
8. We still don't know who the best swordsman is.
9. This is the greatest % of viable fighters in any smash game except for 64.
10. Pichu is better than Pikachu.
11. Roy is worse than Chrom, but still very good.
12. People either don't know the Olimar matchup, or he is a force to be reckoned with.
13. Upsets can still happen just as frequently in SSBU as Smash 4, even though we have switched to 3 stocks. (See 8BitMan, Dark Wizzy, ESAM, Samsora)
14. About now is the point in the metagame where non-ROB heavies are falling in viability just based on pure frame data.

I guess I'll respond to this.

1. Agreed, while there are a few characters that seem to be strong contenders (like Peach/Daisy, Wolf, and Fox, but the #1 is not obvious right now.
2. Hard disagree.
3. Disagree, it seems rather likely that Mario is high tier still, his results are good (#20 in the game according to current OrionStats), his theory seems good enough for high tier.
4. Incineroar always looked pretty bad or mediocre to me, I doubt he's going to be high tier unless he gets buffed.
5. High tier or top tier.
6. Fox being better than Falco has been pretty obvious since day one, in my opinion.
7. Yes, both Ryuga and Marss did well with Ike, proving Ike isn't just being carried by MkLeo.
8. Lucina?
9. Depends on how you define "viable", but at the very least it's the largest number of viable fighters.
10. Still debatable.
11. How do you figure? Shoyo James got 9th with Chrom, Goblin got 13th with Roy, I don't think that's nearly enough to conclude that Roy is worse.
12. It's probably both.
13. Too early to say, since the meta is new and people haven't learned all the MUs yet, and people also SD a lot more often than they should.
14. R.O.B. will probably fall off a bit too, Wario, Ike, and Snake will stay in high/top tier.

 

[Sean²]

A lot of these takeaways had already been confirmed/touched on via the numerous other majors we've seen so far, my responses in line:

So, post-frostbite talks. In my opinion, I think the things to take away are:
1. We cannot definitively find a best character at this time And I don't think we will for a long time barring balance patches really shaking things up
2. Peach/Daisy was overrated going into this tournament. Oh god no they're still stupid
3. Mario is mid-tier and not likely to move around a lot if he doesn't get a lot of buffs. He may fall at SOME point but right now he's still better than mid tier. Too much combo potential to shut out to mid tier yet
4. Incineroar looked scary starting out, but his movement is really weighing his down Basically always been just under "kind of okay", he gets shut down so hard by any zoner or fast character that it's depressing
5. Snake is high tier if played correctly. Snake is still stupid good, basically high tier in general, he's good at nearly everything
6. Fox is better than Falco. I don't think anyone ever disputed that, Falco is unfortunately seen as the worst space animal, though considering the other two are considered top tier in most players eyes, he's still better than a lot of characters
7. Ike is still good. You basically have to be a parry god to shut him down entirely.
8. We still don't know who the best swordsman is. Would be willing to bet money that Lucina easily takes this prize
9. This is the greatest % of viable fighters in any smash game except for 64. I mean 12 vs
10. Pichu is better than Pikachu. I've kind of talked about this before, but I think they will level out eventually - Pichu may eventually fall out of favor due to his light weight/self-damage/glass cannon archetype, while Pikachu will be the well-rounded hero
11. Roy is worse than Chrom, but still very good. I disagree, I think Roy has more long-run potential, Chrom is more exploitable/more of a glass cannon
12. People either don't know the Olimar matchup, or he is a force to be reckoned with. He's stupidly good, he doesn't even need damage scaling on his charged smash attacks to continue racking up 80+ damage off one combo
13. Upsets can still happen just as frequently in SSBU as Smash 4, even though we have switched to 3 stocks. (See 8BitMan, Dark Wizzy, ESAM, Samsora)
14. About now is the point in the metagame where non-ROB heavies are falling in viability just based on pure frame data. Assuming you mean super-heavies? because Snake is definitely a heavy. Super heavies may fall off a bit, but I still suspect that the status quo available stage choice will always work against their favor...but that's for another thread

 

[Rocketjay8]

I think a lot of it is that people rarely, if ever, back down or apologize when they are wrong. They tend to just double down or shrug it off. When they get shamed by 10 people, they just move on to the next hot topic or post.

The harassment of Captain Zack, in particular, is absolutely ridiculous. It's insane to me how many people are happy to hop on that hate train.

If he did stuff outside of playing Bayonetta and taunting, I'm unaware. If that's all there was, it's ridiculous that the harassment happened in the first place.

Captain Zack made some stupid tweets (like calling other Bayonetta players "carried" and such), and him and Lima did some things at Grand Finals EVO 2018, he also flipped off the audience at EVO after having been booed and harassed for all day. None of it nearly bad enough to justify the harassment and toxicity he (and certainly many other Bayonetta players as well) had to deal with.

This is the same exact thing that's happening to Hungrybox and his Jigglypuff. And Melee fanbase have the nerve to call out smash 4 fanbase for harrasing CaptainZack.

 

[Lore]

It's absolutely uncalled for in both cases. What the hell, smash community.

I kinda blame the clustering-into-discord-and-facebook-echo-chambers that struck the community, but I'm not sure how much of that is my personal bias.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I kinda blame the clustering-into-discord-and-facebook-echo-chambers that struck the community, but I'm not sure how much of that is my personal bias.

Twitter and Twitch seem far more toxic than Discord, from what I've seen. I haven't been much involved in Smash Facebook so I can't really comment about that. Also, people are being toxic IRL (like the audience and such).