Frame Perfect vs. The World

[Nihonjin]

You cannot hit a frameperfect Fox. He can literally shine all their attacks.

 

[Wretched]

Is there lag inbetween the shine hitbox before you can jump?
and what would happen after each clank, would the shine stay out or would there be lag?

 

[Nihonjin]

You don't clank, you shine their attacks.

 

[P.C. Jona]

no disjointed hitboxes will hit

and if it clanks then someone from behind can grab or something

 

[j3ly]

Level 9 CPU is just sandbagging.

best post 2010

 

[jugfingers]

cpu god fox would ****. it would be impossible.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

the lake can beat it by himself on brinstar.

 

[Theftz22]

1. Drop 3 marths in.

2. Wildly wave around disjointed swords.

3. Sucess.

 

[Nihonjin]

no disjointed hitboxes will hit

and if it clanks then someone from behind can grab or something

Only if you're frame perfect. And he's standing still not doing anything, just waiting to shine.

Since neither's the case, they'd get *****. You can probably add 2 more people and they'd still lose.

 

[P.C. Jona]

frame perfect? send in m2k

done

and if hes going to shine even once

all we need is a fox to shoot lasers and make him get stuck in the shine

then grab to death

frame perfect fox is nothin to a baller

 

[Pi]

Only if you're frame perfect. And he's standing still not doing anything, just waiting to shine.

Since neither's the case, they'd get *****. You can probably add 2 more people and they'd still lose.

if the fox goes airborne he leaves himself open to a bunch of counters when he's coming back down, even shorthopped

ideally he's going to want to stay grounded

also, he's not going to be the one attacking, unless he's programmed to judge proximity of the two other players, because any attack he throws out, even if it hits 1 person, is going to leave himself vulnerable to punishment from the other 2

it would not be hard to beat a frame perfect fox with 3, or even 2 people, and by not hard I mean it could be done within an hour of practice

and i think you're overestimating the shine clanking or powershielding, each comes with like 10 frames of lag (or around there), which is not hard to punish at all, especially when you can verbally coordinate it with the other people on your team

 

[M@d-F!ghter]

perfect fox cpu will always get the first hit probably so the only chance for those 3 is to stay in distance of each other, wait for his first hit on one of them and then the others try to stop his zero-death combo (which will obviosly happen). once this is done, try to team combo it, while calculating a monster DI ^^

 

[Nihonjin]

if the fox goes airborne he leaves himself open to a bunch of counters when he's coming back down, even shorthopped

ideally he's going to want to stay grounded

He can. He runs, shines, combo's from there. If one shine doesn't do it, he adds how many more he needs to get started.

also, he's not going to be the one attacking, unless he's programmed to judge proximity of the two other players, because any attack he throws out, even if it hits 1 person, is going to leave himself vulnerable to punishment from the other 2

He will be attacking and of course he's programmed like that. Other wise he's just a crappy CPU lvl 9.

it would not be hard to beat a frame perfect fox with 3, or even 2 people, and by not hard I mean it could be done within an hour of practice

You're right, it wouldn't be hard, it would be absolutely and utterly impossible.

and i think you're overestimating the shine clanking or powershielding, each comes with like 10 frames of lag (or around there), which is not hard to punish at all, especially when you can verbally coordinate it with the other people on your team

I haven't said a word about shine clanking, but literally shining attacks. No clash, no clank, just the player getting hit.

The only communication between players would be "This is impossible".

 

[Moooose]

i dont see how shine could beat 3 marths spacing fairs =S
maybe theres something i dont understand?

 

[Nihonjin]

The same way we beat one Marth spacing fairs. It's not a flawless strategy.

Fox can run in, shine the Marth in between fairs and follow up the the worst **** combo you've ever seen.

If one of the other players tries to help, their wall of fairs is gone and they become an easy target as well. If they don't, they'll suffer the same fate as the first one at some point.

 

[Laem]

unless he would be able to shine every frame it ought to be possible

 

[j3ly]

counter the shine, done.

j3ly 4 pres

 

[MCSR]

Not serious: SW and this cpu dittos. That would be amazing.
Serious: Silent Wolf, Lovage, and Darkrain.
Silent Wolf locks the fox in shine. From there, amazing grab/team combos that all end in dropzones.

 

[Nihonjin]

unless he would be able to shine every frame it ought to be possible

Theoretically possible =/= Humanly possible

 

[j3ly]

x3 marth + counter + cg =/> perfect fox

 

[Pi]

He can. He runs, shines, combo's from there. If one shine doesn't do it, he adds how many more he needs to get started.



He will be attacking and of course he's programmed like that. Other wise he's just a crappy CPU lvl 9.



You're right, it wouldn't be hard, it would be absolutely and utterly impossible.



I haven't said a word about shine clanking, but literally shining attacks. No clash, no clank, just the player getting hit.

The only communication between players would be "This is impossible".

even if he did shine 1 of the people, if he committed to a jump, let alone a wavedash out of the shine, that's 5 or 14 frames of vulnerability, respectively, assuming his very next action was another shine.

He cannot shine everything all the time, and remain mobile.

He's going to get hit, and when he does he better smash DI into the ground and hope nobody reads his tech.

Even landing a grab, which he'll shake out of almost instantaneously till really high %, leave him vulnerable after the shake out.

Though one thing I haven't considered is how he will possibly die, considering his SDI is perfect.

But I also don't see him killing people, shine gimp would be the safest, but even a frame perfect fox is vulnerable to edgeguarding. upsmash is risky, upair is probably safer, but still offers vulnerable frames

 

[Nihonjin]

even if he did shine 1 of the people, if he committed to a jump, let alone a wavedash out of the shine, that's 5 or 14 frames of vulnerability, respectively, assuming his very next action was another shine.

He cannot shine everything all the time, and remain mobile.

Yes, he can. That's the problem. And whether or not wavedashing out of shine leaves him vulnerable depends on the position of his opponents. Seeing as he's frame perfect, I'm sure he'll use it when it's safe and if it isn't, he'll resort to something else.

He's going to get hit, and when he does he better smash DI into the ground and hope nobody reads his tech.

Gets hit by what? Why wouldn't he just smash DI and regular DI so he grabs the edge and then perfect waveland back on stage to continue the ****? Sure he'll tech sometimes, but it's not a guarantee.

Even landing a grab, which he'll shake out of almost instantaneously till really high %, leave him vulnerable after the shake out.

You cannot grab a Fox like this. He will grab, jab, shine, tilt, smash or spotdodge any attempt to grab him.

Though one thing I haven't considered is how he will possibly die, considering his SDI is perfect.

He won't. (not with 4 stocks anyway)

But I also don't see him killing people, shine gimp would be the safest, but even a frame perfect fox is vulnerable to edgeguarding. upsmash is risky, upair is probably safer, but still offers vulnerable frames

You don't see him killing people..? You're seriously underestimating Fox here.

 

[Pi]

Yes, he can. That's the problem. And whether or not wavedashing out of shine leaves him vulnerable depends on the position of his opponents. Seeing as he's frame perfect, I'm sure he'll use it when it's safe and if it isn't, he'll resort to something else.

you act like he has so many options out of shine, it's either JC another shine which leaves him the least vulnerable, or jump into something, maybe an airdodge away, nair, bair, all of them have their uses, but even if he reacted the frame after the input was made (which he would be the soonest possible), it still isn't going to be a sure thing with all attacks. Melee has far too many variables for him to react perfectly and not get hit.

Gets hit by what? Why wouldn't he just smash DI and regular DI so he grabs the edge and then perfect waveland back on stage to continue the ****? Sure he'll tech sometimes, but it's not a guarantee.

of course it's not a guarantee, and ideally yes the edge grab would be the safest bet, assuming no other person was in between him and the edge.

You cannot grab a Fox like this. He will grab, jab, shine, tilt, smash or spotdodge any attempt to grab him.

There is no possible way for him to avoid 3 grab windows in succession.

You don't see him killing people..? You're seriously underestimating Fox here.

What's he going to kill with and not take a hit from? Shine gimp? That leads to being edge guarded.

 

[Nihonjin]

You act like he has so many options out of shine, it's either JC another shine which leaves him the least vulnerable, or jump into something, maybe an airdodge away, nair, bair, all of them have their uses, but even if he reacted the frame after the input was made (which he would be the soonest possible), it still isn't going to be a sure thing with all attacks. Melee has far too many variables for him to react perfectly and not get hit.

He has enough options.

Good luck hitting or grabbing -->this<--

But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing he won't get hit at all (though that's a pretty good possibility). I just don't think any human team will be able to kill it before it kills them multiple times.

Of course it's not a guarantee, and ideally yes the edge grab would be the safest bet, assuming no other person was in between him and the edge.

Assuming that person isn't already dead. Have you ever played a (nearly) broken CPU? I don't think you realize quite how ridiculous they are..

There is no possible way for him to avoid 3 grab windows in succession.

Shine, shine, shine.

What's he going to kill with and not take a hit from? Shine gimp? That leads to being edge guarded.

Aerial > Shine > Combo or Shine > Combo If someone tries to come in between him and whoever he's beating up, shine their attack/grab and continue ******.

 

[Moooose]

i do think agree it would probably win, i'm just saying fox doesn't have an unbeatable strategy

 

[Pi]

there's a 5 frame window between successive JC shines
and you also have to factor in hitlag from the shine, when it hits a target

grabs come out in around 6 frames, if 3 people grab one after the other, or even if someone just counts down, 3 2 1 grab, there's no way the computer will be able to shine them all

but factoring in the inability to be combo'd, which is foxes major downfall to begin with, i'm starting to think it's less and less likely for humans to win.

though i still believe there are tons of unexplored variables, and since i can't picture how much SDI will alter combo's (3 people combo's).

I'm also not sure what is entirely frame perfectly possible, combo wise.

i'd like to see a TAS fox vs. 3 computers, and disect the match to see where he could be punished

 

[MCSR]

there's a 5 frame window between successive JC shines
and you also have to factor in hitlag from the shine, when it hits a target

grabs come out in around 6 frames, if 3 people grab one after the other, or even if someone just counts down, 3 2 1 grab, there's no way the computer will be able to shine them all

but factoring in the inability to be combo'd, which is foxes major downfall to begin with, i'm starting to think it's less and less likely for humans to win.

though i still believe there are tons of unexplored variables, and since i can't picture how much SDI will alter combo's (3 people combo's).

I'm also not sure what is entirely frame perfectly possible, combo wise.

i'd like to see a TAS fox vs. 3 computers, and disect the match to see where he could be punished

Done.

Oh yeah, and This

And This

 

[Nihonjin]

there's a 5 frame window between successive JC shines
and you also have to factor in hitlag from the shine, when it hits a target

Point being?

grabs come out in around 6 frames, if 3 people grab one after the other, or even if someone just counts down, 3 2 1 grab, there's no way the computer will be able to shine them all

Why would the Fox just sit there and let everyone line up to grab? Also, you'd have to be frame perfect to pull off what you're suggesting.

I'm also not sure what is entirely frame perfectly possible, combo wise.

Nothing. He can smash DI out of any followup. (And that's assuming he'll get hit in the first place)

i'd like to see a TAS fox vs. 3 computers, and disect the match to see where he could be punished

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYeG0DSERCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXSKhtJcc5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz1mRt2YbZM&feature=related

And this Fox, though frame perfect, is making human errors.

[edit]

MCSR beat me to it.

i do think agree it would probably win, i'm just saying fox doesn't have an unbeatable strategy

It's unbeatable.

 

[PB&J]

i was going to come in here and say something but amsah took all the words times 3 thousand and said it

perfect fox will beat anything..multishines waveshine combos to anything possible plus there di would be insane like crouch canceling tippers at like 200 percent if he gets that high and not even fly that far

 

[Violence]

Kniht, are you taking into account the fact that three human player can't work together absolutely perfectly?

Regarding Fox killing people, I did think of that too. But what if he focused on separating the teammates first? If he could build percentage, he can use the most frame safe way of approaching each character and attempt to hit them away from the others. Then, when it's safe to kill someone, he can shine gimp them.

I think you're overestimating the capabilities of human players here, but then again, I'm not the greatest myself, I might not have a great idea of how good they are either.

I agree that the Fox is not unbeatable theoretically, but I can't think of a legitimate 3 person team that can take him down, on any stage.

 

[Nihonjin]

"Kniht, are you taking into account the fact that three human player can't work together absolutely perfectly?"

^No He's not.

He's arguing three people could coordinate attacks to exploit a 5 frame window that might or might not show itself.

 

[CloneHat]

Just because you're able to hit Fox at one point or another, he'll still be outplaying you 99% of the time.

Also: just imagine the double-stick techs he'd be able to pull!

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i think you guys are leaving out an important aspect..

wobbling and team wobbling.

 

[Jim Morrison]

You guys are silly, SDI frame perfect ***** all.

 

[Nihonjin]

i think you guys are leaving out an important aspect..

wobbling and team wobbling.

Good luck grabbing. (Not to mention he'd wiggle out instantly)

 

[Nø Ca$h]

dude.. m2ks sheik to shoot a full hand of needles..

mangos puff to cover any possible way he escapes the needles..

wobbles grabs, stock.

 

[Jim Morrison]

dude.. m2ks sheik to shoot a full hand of needles..

mangos puff to cover any possible way he escapes the needles..

wobbles grabs, stock.

>implying he has time to even grab a hand of needles

 

[Nihonjin]

dude.. m2ks sheik to shoot a full hand of needles..

mangos puff to cover any possible way he escapes the needles..

wobbles grabs, stock.

/Facepalm

*Walks out of thread*

 

[Nø Ca$h]

/Facepalm

*Walks out of thread*

good my plan worked

but in reality the only thing imo to beat a FP fox is a FP falco.

 

[MCSR]

Oh my god I ninja'd a ninja.
I am now a ninja.
Oh yeah and FP fox is unbeatable guys. Perfectly unbeatable. The only way you could beat him is being frame perfect yourself. And no-one is exactly frame perfect.