Fox vids. Critique please.

Rubyiris · Feb 13, 2009

Miggz · Feb 14, 2009

I must admit, you are the most passive Fox I've ever seen, which isn't a bad thing. You actually watch your foe and react, so you aren't reckless. However, the ICs looked like they didn't know what they were doing. Just out of curiosity were you holding back? ^^"

The main things I can suggest is watch your spacing. A few times it got you grabbed and down smashed. But all honesty, I think you need to find (if you can) better foes or have the person playing ICs get better so people can critque you a bit better.

omnicloud7strife · Feb 14, 2009

I'm not gonna lie to you: You are TOO passive. Miggz is right in that watching your foe is great, and not being reckless is great. But, you need to get to the point where you can figure out how they're going to react to your next move, or how you're going to counter their attack. Your technique is FANTASTIC. Drillshine, Waveshine, Dance Dash... all that's spot on. Perhaps a little work on your Drill accuracy, but, other than that...

You're a little predictable. Vary your approach a little, just to mess with them, if for nothing else. I actually find that Fox Fire can be used as a nice stall, if you time it right. But, that's really tough to do, and probably wouldn't work against better players.

Work on your Ledgetec. And perhaps your Shine Spike, if that's how you roll. Other than that, play better people. Your teching needs work, I think. But, yeah. You're good. Better than a lot of players.

Hope this was helpful.

~Omni~

Rubyiris · Feb 15, 2009

I actually DO play better players, these are just the only vids I have uploaded at the moment. I've got some 10+ hours of game play, at least 2~3 hours of it is my playing Fox against various players of varying skill using various characters.

I find I have the biggest problem with Marth. I try to play patiently and make as little mistakes as possible. This usually works out quite well AT FIRST, but then either I start to play worse, start to SD a **** load, or they simply catch on to my play style, and before i can adapt to their adaption, I've already lost. Often it's a clutch match in the set. The few times I've actually managed to win, they either played bad, SDed a **** ton too, or the freak occurance that I manage to adapt quick enough and win properly.

I'm going to try and record more Fox v Marth matches, and hopefulyl get some sound advice.

Doggalina · Feb 15, 2009

Rubyiris said:
I find I have the biggest problem with Marth. I try to play patiently and make as little mistakes as possible. This usually works out quite well AT FIRST, but then either I start to play worse, start to SD a **** load, or they simply catch on to my play style, and before i can adapt to their adaption, I've already lost. Often it's a clutch match in the set. The few times I've actually managed to win, they either played bad, SDed a **** ton too, or the freak occurance that I manage to adapt quick enough and win properly.

I'm going to try and record more Fox v Marth matches, and hopefulyl get some sound advice.

Marth is a tricky match. It really helps if you know the spacing on ALL his moves so you don't get it. Just be quick and wily and try to get inside. Once you're inside, going for grabs is a good bet. Uthrow uair works great. Marth's tricky to shinespike, but if you get him without his jump, he's usually dead.

As for stages, of the neutrals, FD is the worst, but it's a player by player thing. For me, FoD is almost as bad as FD because the platforms are low and the stage is small. On Yoshi's the platforms are taller, so it doesn't bother me that much.

On Friday I was experimenting with crouch cancelled shines on recovering Marths. If he'd miss the sweetspot, I'd shinespike him.

Rubyiris · Feb 15, 2009

FD, YS, and sometimes FoD are Fox's worst stage match ups vs Marth. FoD's platforms aren't always at the level where Marth can **** his ****, so it can go either way.

Pokemon Stadium is a neutral match up. Each stage transformation gives each character an equal advantage against the other.

I want to say that DL64, and BF are Fox's easiest stage match ups, but I can't say that they give him the advantage. I perform the best on these stages, but again I usually lose in the end. PS, DL64, and BF are usually the only stages where I pull off a win.

Miggz · Feb 15, 2009

Although Marth is my toughest match up for me as a Fox player I still enjoy it a lot. I'm always getting better at it. It took me like a few months worth of getting three stocked but I am finally getting the hang of it. Haha.

Rubyiris · Feb 15, 2009

So I am to expect to get my *** handed to me for the next few months? I am NOT looking forward to it. x.x;

Miggz · Feb 16, 2009

Rubyiris said:
So I am to expect to get my *** handed to me for the next few months? I am NOT looking forward to it. x.x;

ROFL! No worries, we all learn at different paces anyway. All I can say is that if I gave up within a few weeks, I would have never achieved the level I'm currently at. I look forward to your future vids. XD

Doggalina · Feb 16, 2009

Don't get ledgecamped against a Marth. You have a gun for a reason.

And always remember that although he can gay you, you can gay him back. You're playing Fox, after all.

Rubyiris · Feb 16, 2009

I am currently uploading 80 new Melee vids. Counting the total of vids already uploaded, and vids currently uploading, I play in 72 of the games, 42 of which I win, and about 40% of them are me using Fox.

My video capture card doesn't capture the sound on my VHS, so I'm going to have to use audio swap. I tried to edit my own music in, but I just learned that it takes about 10 minutes for me to properly edit the song and video clip. I then have to add descriptions, and titles, and edit options, on all 80 videos.

Something random:

A few of the games I play, I wear the box tag. I have come to the conclusion that if you're not Mango, and you wear the box tag, you're going to lose.

Also; look forward to new Falco vids. I reworked my play style with Falco. I already had a decent laser game, and decided to focus on improving it. It produced some interesting results.

Rubyiris · Feb 19, 2009

Excuse the double post:

The videos are updated. There are more of them against a larger variety of players.

Miggz · Feb 19, 2009

Your first video against Peach on YS. : Its good to see you can shine after an aerial that hits a shield, but now you have to turn that into a wave shine. I'd say practice wave shines a bit more because you seem to get stuck in your shine a few times. I'm not saying you can't do it, but from watching your videos I know you are capable of doing it more consistent. You also seemed to have been doing down smash a lot as an offensive weapon in that match. Me personally, I wouldn't recommend using down smash that way, especially against a Peach. Its more of a edge guarding tool. Just stick with up smashes. Speaking of edge game, try switching up your recovery a bit. You kept returning with side B most of the time. Don't forget you can also shorten your illusion as well. Your movement was cool was a whole.

Now for your match against the Marth. Again...work on your wave shining. Also, be careful when doing SHFFL nair to wave shines. The nair tends to slightly lift your foe off the ground, and after you activate your shine it will hit the Marth while he is in the air...and the gay thing is a character who gets shined in the air and lands will immediately recover from the shine stun. That is how Marth grabbed you right after your nair to wave shine. I'm not saying stop doing nair to wave shine, just be more careful with it. I'd recommend using more SHFFL dairs to wave shines because dairs have 0 knock back, meaning the character will stay grounded. Oh and there was this part were you spot dodge a forward smash and a laggy Marth was right in your face but you messed up a bit by doing a full jump dair. A simple wave shine after spot dodges is a cool trick with Fox.

You did the repetitive side B recovering again in this match too. So watch that. Oh and when you kill Marth...don't run to the egde and wait for him to come back. In my opinion that just puts you in messy predicaments...especially when fighting Marth. Try to stay within the middle of the stage or something. Your SHFFLs were very good though. You had very clean movement in these two matches. I enjoyed watching you play. Keep at it. XD

Rubyiris · Feb 20, 2009

Thanks for explaining to me why Marth kept grabbing me after the Nair - Shine. I was confused, and irritated. =[

Also; My Falco thread got deleted. Wtf?

KirbyKaze · Feb 20, 2009

Rubyiris said:
So I am to expect to get my *** handed to me for the next few months? I am NOT looking forward to it. x.x;

If you dislike Marth, use Sheik.

Otherwise just be more proactive and force him to do stuff. Being passive is fine and dandy but it also puts you at a fairly bad positional disadvantage if you just sit there and stare him; a lot of Marths hits come from you standing there, him walking up to you slowly (or walking away from you slowly) and then him smacking you with a move when you try to defend yourself. Obviously there's advantage gained from defense, but you're trapping yourself far too much. You should be moving more to avoid these shenanigans. Approaching more may also be a good idea; not necessarily tossing moves out but moving around him and at him, back and forth, so put pressure on him and pressing when you can get advantage from it. Standing around is good, but you need to do more.

Also get more technical consistency.

Rubyiris · Feb 20, 2009

KirbyKaze said:
If you dislike Marth, use Sheik.

Otherwise just be more proactive and force him to do stuff. Being passive is fine and dandy but it also puts you at a fairly bad positional disadvantage if you just sit there and stare him; a lot of Marths hits come from you standing there, him walking up to you slowly (or walking away from you slowly) and then him smacking you with a move when you try to defend yourself. Obviously there's advantage gained from defense, but you're trapping yourself far too much. You should be moving more to avoid these shenanigans. Approaching more may also be a good idea; not necessarily tossing moves out but moving around him and at him, back and forth, so put pressure on him and pressing when you can get advantage from it. Standing around is good, but you need to do more.

Also get more technical consistency.

The point is to get better in the matchup with my mains, not pick up a new character whos sole role is to **** one character. x.x\

I've been working on it.

KirbyKaze · Feb 20, 2009

Sheik ***** a lot more than just Marth

And I'm not being serious. If I was going to tell you to seriously play Sheik for Marth (and probably other characters over time in the evolution), I probably wouldn't bother writing up all that crap on how you trap yourself often inadvertantly because you try to remain so non-committal and extremely conservative with your Fox.

The technical consistency one was kind of a joke, but also not. You should work on being able to waveland from the edge with invincibility onto the stage so you don't get punished for trying to get up from the ledge so much. Just a thought.

Rubyiris · Feb 20, 2009

KirbyKaze said:
Sheik ***** a lot more than just Marth

And I'm not being serious. If I was going to tell you to seriously play Sheik for Marth (and probably other characters over time in the evolution), I probably wouldn't bother writing up all that crap on how you trap yourself often inadvertantly because you try to remain so non-committal and extremely conservative with your Fox.

The technical consistency one was kind of a joke, but also not. You should work on being able to waveland from the edge with invincibility onto the stage so you don't get punished for trying to get up from the ledge so much. Just a thought.

I've been working on wavelanding with Fox and Falco from the edge for quite a while. I'm still pretty bad at it. I'm very good at it with every character besides Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Bowser, and Pichu. =[

Miggz · Feb 20, 2009

Rubyiris said:
I've been working on wavelanding with Fox and Falco from the edge for quite a while. I'm still pretty bad at it. I'm very good at it with every character besides Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Bowser, and Pichu. =[

Lol. I don't think I ever attempted to play the last three characters in your list.

But its good you practice with different people.

Rubyiris · Feb 20, 2009

Miggz said:
Lol. I don't think I ever attempted to play the last three characters in your list.

But its good you practice with different people.

I know the basics on how every character in the game works, but it doesn't mean I'm actually good with them. The one thing it does do, however, is give me a basic idea on what to expect from every character, MOST of the time. In the past, I frequently switched mains. The characters I know the most about are in order:

Falco, Jigglypuff, Fox, Marth, Shiek, Link, Zelda, Falcon, Peach, Gannondorf, Game and Watch, Luigi, Mario, Young Link, Bowser, Yoshi, Pichu, then everyone else, lol.

The good thing is that I have a pretty good understanding of how each of those characters work, and what they can do to my characters (Fox, Falco, Zelda.) I have a decent level of understanding what I can do to them with Fox. A decent knowledge of which % which move kills those characters, and a decent knowledge of various gay tactics are applicable. I have a decent knowledge of each characters range and priority, too.

Of course, even with all this knowledge I posess, it doesn't mean jack **** in the end if the other player knows what to do, and I can't adapt. :x

Rubyiris · Feb 25, 2009

Excuse the double post, but I'd like to bring more attention to this thread.

Anyways; I played Exclusively Fox during Mewtwo's Revenge brackets, and I played about two~three hours worth of Fox during friendlies, and got some games in against a respectable variety of players, and characters.

During friendlies I played against the following characters with my Fox.

Fox, Falco, Marth, Gannon, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, Link, Young Link, Samus, Pikachu, Mario, and Dr. Mario.

Out of the characters I played against, I played against 7 different players.

During brackets I played against 3 different players using Gannon, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Falco with my Fox.

Out of everyone I played, I had the hardest time against Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Falco, Falco being the worst. I had the easiest time against Marth, and Fox, not counting the lower tiers.

I played against a few very technical fox players. While my tech skill wasn't nearly at their level, I still managed to excel in other categories, such as edge guarding. I'm still inconsistent when it comes to waveshining and I still can't WL from the edge, but I'm come to the conclusion that what I need more than anything else is more experience. I've decided to stop practicing tech skill all together, and to just allow it to improve as I improve everything else.

Grmo · Feb 25, 2009

There are two major problems that I can see, which I'll try to address clearly.

The first is DI; I suspect the reason you have trouble against Falco, Falcon, and especially Jiggs is because you need work on combo DI. All three of those character punish bad DI horrible (Falco with combos, Falcon with knees, and jiggs with rests, respectively). I noted that you did not DI quite often and were punished badly for it, so I suspect this is the problem with those matchups.

- On that note, Jiggs isn't a hard matchup for Fox. At around 60-70% uair and up smash kill her, and there's a lot more **** you can do to her than she can to you. Just don't let her in on your space. Don't play too agressively; space properly, pressure her by being in her space but let her know that you're not going to put up with her bull****.

- vs Falco, DI and watch videos to learn how to combo and get around his lasers. It's one of Fox's hardest matchups because of the lasers, but you're still Fox and can combo him at least as well as he can combo you.

- vs Falcon, overwhelming aggression can work very well so long as you don't make mistakes. While that seems like a HUGE stretch saying that, I mean it in the technical perspective. His priority is terrible and you can abuse that, and generally as soon as you hit him he's going to take some damage. DI carefully and play smart; watch how he approaches and do everything you can do avoid that knee, and of course DI it properly. His recovery is easily gimp-able and is pretty bad in general, so take every opportunity you see to get him off.

The second major issue is slowness. A key to Fox is movement. A huge problem in your playing is that you leave yourself open very often. I understand you're trying to wait and watch them, but it doesn't work when you do it during combos or when you're in range of being attacked. This is something all Fox players go through at some point. You need to be moving constantly, because every time you sit still when you're near them, you're asking to be grabbed or hit. This falls under what other people said under "being too passive" and "technical consistency", both of which come in to play here. During practice sessions or whatever it is you do, try to focus on moving when you're near them so as not to leave yourself open, but not to the point where you make mistakes and lose track of yourself. Being passive is good at times, but Fox's true potential lies in his overwhelming speed and attack power, so you have to learn to master that, as well as other things that have been mentioned, in order to progress as a player.

I hope this has helped.

RaynEX · Mar 2, 2009

Good advice grmzo. Nice vids Ruby.

These guys got your advice covered.

Fox vids. Critique please.

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