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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

ilikcereal101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
72
The best way to get better at anything with any character in this game is to practice and keep practicing even when you have it down.
Also its helpful to combine short hop practice with shine so essentially short hop out of shine this will help your game a lot with shield pressure and neutral game in general.
 
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Double07

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
1
Is it possible to shine and immediatly grab after wards if so how?

Same question for up smash out of shield
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
Yes, by jumping and canceling the jump into grab/upsmash. You can jump out of shine frame 4.

Frame data for perfect shine grab:
shine 1
(hitlag)
(hitlag)
(hitlag)
shine 2
shine 3
jump 1
grab 1

Ignore hitlag if the shine doesn't hit anything.
 
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silentSWAG

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,031
Location
South Park
Whats the best option after shining a charcater that can be auto comboed by shine like falcon. Nair comes out a frame sooner than dair. But im starting to think upsmash and grab is the best after a waveshine. Any thoughts?
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
Whats the best option after shining a charcater that can be auto comboed by shine like falcon. Nair comes out a frame sooner than dair. But im starting to think upsmash and grab is the best after a waveshine. Any thoughts?
There is no single best option. It all depends on percent, location on the stage, and what DI you think they will use. It is also not going to be the same against every character. For example, waveshine grab is better against Sheik than it is against Peach because Sheik has guaranteed follow ups on upthrow whereas peach does not.
 

saef

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Messages
3
Location
you see me
Whats the best option after shining a charcater that can be auto comboed by shine like falcon. Nair comes out a frame sooner than dair. But im starting to think upsmash and grab is the best after a waveshine. Any thoughts?
you can get a lot of mileage from upsmash at early percentages (0-40) cuz it leads into stuff like up-tilt, more upsmash, nair, etc etc... but punishes are extended further at medium percentages (41-70ish) by grab -> option... sometimes nair can convert into something. at later percentages (71-100+) you just want to make sure he's at a kill percent and up-smash (usually the safest option if they don't di correctly.

Simple Question: How do i git gud?
tinyurl.com/meleelibrary

There is no single best option. It all depends on percent, location on the stage, and what DI you think they will use. It is also not going to be the same against every character. For example, waveshine grab is better against Sheik than it is against Peach because Sheik has guaranteed follow ups on upthrow whereas peach does not.
I'd argue you have guaranteed up-throw -> up-airs against peach at early-mid percentages just like you do against sheik. the thing is with sheik, though, up-throw -> back-airs are more guaranteed because of weight difference. fox just converts very well off of grabs lol
 
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TrevR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Florida
3DS FC
4313-0528-5701
I don't play more than 5 hours a week and I'm not great at the game so I'm not too worried about hands now, but in the future is it something that I should look into? I'm a little cautious and I don't want to get myself into something that could damage my hands in the future. Basically, could someone tell me what level and amount of play would give me hand discomfort and ways that I could prevent it?
 

~Twitch~

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
4,106
Location
cullowhee, nc western carolina university
I've only really seen top 50 level players struggle really so around there I guess. but in my experience you only get hand problems if you're really gripping the controller super hard. most people don't develop hand problems at all for sure but if you're that cautious about it then just don't force your hands when playing.

For more preventative techniques, I know pp does stretches a lot before his matches among other people so you can try looking those up. Sleepyk had a hand massager come in, idk if it actually does anything, but if you're serious about getting information you can ask him for one or if it's worth it.
 

Sketch

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Cleveland
I'm having issues wave shining characters like Sheik and peach . Am I just doing the input too slow or am I not getting a long enough wavedash ? or is there something else I could be messing up
 

TrevR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Florida
3DS FC
4313-0528-5701
I'm having issues wave shining characters like Sheik and peach . Am I just doing the input too slow or am I not getting a long enough wavedash ? or is there something else I could be messing up
You must be flubbing the inputs. It's shine->wavedash. Practice your normal wavedashing if those aren't that great, it'll help you get better at waveshining.
 

TrevR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Florida
3DS FC
4313-0528-5701
Shorthops aren't easy for me. Whenever I'm in a game I can normally get the shorthop I need for a nair, bair, etc in order to hit my opponent approximately 8.5/10 times. However, I cannot shorthop across FD and back. I always mess up at the end or the beginning. I'm fairly certain that the issue is me. I have tremors, though they're minuscule, not very noticeable, and I can easily live my life without them getting in the way. I don't think that they get in the way of me shorthoping, but whenever I flub the sh I do a little twitch with my hands. It's similar to how my hands are when I'm using a fork to eat food. They kind of tremble.
Does anyone else have experience with this? I love the Fox, and he's super fun to play, but if I can't play him correctly I think I'll have to switch from him. Do I just need to practice more?
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
Whats the best option after shining a charcater that can be auto comboed by shine like falcon. Nair comes out a frame sooner than dair. But im starting to think upsmash and grab is the best after a waveshine. Any thoughts?
I think the answer usually grab but there are times (like 0-20 % against falcon) that grab doesn't lead to much and up smash is better instead since it sets up a tech chase. After that grab destroys especially if there is a platform above you because most of the waveshine characters are terrible from that position. Also, I think nair can be hella good as a mix up because people try to SDI shine away and then you just kick them in the jaw and they are off stage.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
I'm having issues wave shining characters like Sheik and peach . Am I just doing the input too slow or am I not getting a long enough wavedash ? or is there something else I could be messing up
I think people are usually just to slow when they can't waveshine these characters. Honestly, just keep working on it and it will come with time. The thing that helped my the most was just cleaning up my wd's in general. What I mean by that is not to waste any frames that I don't have to in the air. Once you can do that then you can focus on optimizing your wd length, which will help your waveshines be super crispy
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
Shorthops aren't easy for me. Whenever I'm in a game I can normally get the shorthop I need for a nair, bair, etc in order to hit my opponent approximately 8.5/10 times. However, I cannot shorthop across FD and back. I always mess up at the end or the beginning. I'm fairly certain that the issue is me. I have tremors, though they're minuscule, not very noticeable, and I can easily live my life without them getting in the way. I don't think that they get in the way of me shorthoping, but whenever I flub the sh I do a little twitch with my hands. It's similar to how my hands are when I'm using a fork to eat food. They kind of tremble.
Does anyone else have experience with this? I love the Fox, and he's super fun to play, but if I can't play him correctly I think I'll have to switch from him. Do I just need to practice more?
Short hopping with fox is hard man. I think you don't have to switch and it will just take more practice, you know. If you are still fairly new then 8.5/10 honestly is not that bad.
 

TrevR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Florida
3DS FC
4313-0528-5701
Short hopping with fox is hard man. I think you don't have to switch and it will just take more practice, you know. If you are still fairly new then 8.5/10 honestly is not that bad.
I haven't been playing Fox for more than 3 months, so I guess I'm new? Anyways, it's gotten much better, so that's good.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
I haven't been playing Fox for more than 3 months, so I guess I'm new? Anyways, it's gotten much better, so that's good.
That is still new so I wouldn't really worry too much about progress like that at the moment. Alot of tech questions will be to just keep practicing. All fox's are always working on some tech and probably takes about 3 months before you can rely on a new technique in tournament
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
Short hopping with fox is hard man. I think you don't have to switch and it will just take more practice, you know. If you are still fairly new then 8.5/10 honestly is not that bad.
If you're going to reply to multiple people, try to do all of the replies in one post. That way the board doesn't get cluttered :)
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
For SHing with Fox, remember that the gamecube controller is a very old piece of hardware. It's not advanced enough to have pressure sensitivity. By this I mean, the controller does not give two ****s if you press it daintily or if you slam the jump button with your forehead. It's about speed not pressure. So as long as you lift your thumb off quickly, you should get the SH fine.

I tap Y (used to slide my thumb off X) with medium strength and it's comfortable and not stressful on my finger. I tried doing it lightly years ago and it's weird to be doing everything quick, then be slow and gentle for the SH..it just doesn't mesh well.

Get your thumb off the button faster, that's all.
 

jazz_1993

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 20, 2015
Messages
24
Did you feel that the "slide off" method was limiting you? I currently do that with Y although I claw so it's it works out.
 

Beastx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
16
Can I just get some general advice on hitting shorten? Having a lot of trouble lol.
 

J$~

The King
Premium
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Messages
6,002
Location
New Orleans, LA
NNID
komfyking
Switch FC
SW 1072 5560 9245
O god, 1 frame inputs X.X I'll come out of the lab in a couple years brb
Once you get it down it's really pretty easy. It doesn't take as long as you'd think to figure it out, but getting it consistent is a different story.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
O god, 1 frame inputs X.X I'll come out of the lab in a couple years brb
Well the regular shorten is a range of like 4 frames or something. It is honestly hella easy once you practice it enough. The mid shortens have several different lengths and each of them are frame perfect inputs. Those are difficult and most players cannot do them consistently still
 

TrevR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Florida
3DS FC
4313-0528-5701
Yesterday at a new monthly I was playing Smilez, a ranked Fox in SoFlo, and he bodied me hard. He did all kinds of nasty stuff to me, and I couldn't get out of it. The thing that he used on me that hurt me the most was the thunder's combo. He would do a running shine to a jab reset then he'd upsmash me.

How can I not get wrecked by the thunder's? Also, how do I do the thunder's? I've tried time and time again but I can't get it right. Is there maybe a youtube vid or a guide that I can look at?
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
Yesterday at a new monthly I was playing Smilez, a ranked Fox in SoFlo, and he bodied me hard. He did all kinds of nasty stuff to me, and I couldn't get out of it. The thing that he used on me that hurt me the most was the thunder's combo. He would do a running shine to a jab reset then he'd upsmash me.

How can I not get wrecked by the thunder's? Also, how do I do the thunder's? I've tried time and time again but I can't get it right. Is there maybe a youtube vid or a guide that I can look at?
You can tech the shine so you don't miss a tech, and if you still miss it then you can SDI up on the jab reset so that you don't do the stand up animation. To do thunders off running shine or any miss-teched shine, you just need to wave shine faster (less frames stuck in shine) and to have a waveshine that goes further.

So basically you need to work on having better and cleaner wavedashes and waveshines. This just takes practice
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
How do you all like to punish your opponent when you have them in a hard knock down? Specifically when I shine another spacie and they miss the tech, I usually try to react to their get up option with a grab. I have trouble reacting to getup attack though, and rarely shield it unless I read it. Training my reaction times to be able to react with grab would be optimal, but I question whether or not this is realistic, because I rarely see people other than Leffen do it consistently. What do you all do in this situation?

Also, when you have a platform tech chase, (i.e. you upthrew a spacie onto the platform), how do you choose to cover their options? I know the Swedes do the upair to cover missed tech then react with grab to catch the other tech options. I usually wait under the platform and bair tech rolls, upair tech in place, and just wait for them to either roll or get up in place/get up attack if they miss the tech, which I punish the same way I would punish the tech roll/tech in place respectively. I am trying to use dash>shield stop>upair to punish rolls instead of bair because upair will lead to more follow ups, but I am not consistent at it yet.

I'm interested in hearing how you all like to get follow ups out of tech chases. I know everyone likes to deal with these situations differently, and I'd like to find an option that I can consistently extend my punishes with, so I'd love to hear what you all do.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
How do you all like to punish your opponent when you have them in a hard knock down? Specifically when I shine another spacie and they miss the tech, I usually try to react to their get up option with a grab. I have trouble reacting to getup attack though, and rarely shield it unless I read it. Training my reaction times to be able to react with grab would be optimal, but I question whether or not this is realistic, because I rarely see people other than Leffen do it consistently. What do you all do in this situation?

Also, when you have a platform tech chase, (i.e. you upthrew a spacie onto the platform), how do you choose to cover their options? I know the Swedes do the upair to cover missed tech then react with grab to catch the other tech options. I usually wait under the platform and bair tech rolls, upair tech in place, and just wait for them to either roll or get up in place/get up attack if they miss the tech, which I punish the same way I would punish the tech roll/tech in place respectively. I am trying to use dash>shield stop>upair to punish rolls instead of bair because upair will lead to more follow ups, but I am not consistent at it yet.

I'm interested in hearing how you all like to get follow ups out of tech chases. I know everyone likes to deal with these situations differently, and I'd like to find an option that I can consistently extend my punishes with, so I'd love to hear what you all do.
Well it changes based on how I am playing. If I ever feel like I am going to be late on my reaction I usually try to dd just out range and nair them out of your tech if I know I might be late. This will pretty much always work to a certain extent and it helps me not overextend and lose stage when I am playing slightly slower than normal. You can also running shine them if they are just waiting for to come in. Anyways standing right out of get up attack range works pretty well and just reacting from there with any follow ups (including grab). You can WD in place if you need to bait them into starting their tech animation.

You can cover all three tech options on a platform with uair on reaction. Bair isn't near as valuable until pretty high percentages.
I think the shield stop method that you described is too slow

The Swedes, I believe, do platform tech chasing by: at midish percents do a falling upair to cover missed tech and tech in place, react to tech in with wd back shine, tech away with grab. They do the falling uair so it more easily links to more uairs and because it gives them more time to react to other tech option.

Here is a vid on platform tech chasing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vah34ZG7J9w
 

AscendantAquila

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
64
Yesterday at a new monthly I was playing Smilez, a ranked Fox in SoFlo, and he bodied me hard. He did all kinds of nasty stuff to me, and I couldn't get out of it. The thing that he used on me that hurt me the most was the thunder's combo. He would do a running shine to a jab reset then he'd upsmash me.

How can I not get wrecked by the thunder's? Also, how do I do the thunder's? I've tried time and time again but I can't get it right. Is there maybe a youtube vid or a guide that I can look at?
Against thunder's combo, if they start with a drill, you have time to react to being hit by the drill and teching the shine which basically resets the situation back to neutral because there is almost nothing they can do after the tech. As far as getting hit by the running shine, there is not much to do against thunder's, except to try to SDI the jab which is pretty hard for Fox I find. However, being hit by the running shine is an entirely different matter as it usually it is a sign that they are reading your movement. What you can do to combat running shine is to drill in place if you are expecting it. Drill in place is good in the Fox ditto because it can catch people getting over aggressive with their movement, leads into a grab, and can be used as mixup to DD grab or WD back grab, specifically against running shine it is particularly effective because they are running into your space and essentially inside of you meaning they run straight into the drill. However, don't do it too predictably or people will be able to punish you whiffing the move and will generally lead to you getting punished pretty hard.
 

Sergeant Guy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
2
Hello everyone, I just created my Smashboards account after playing Melee for about 6 months! I am of course looking for any advice I can find :) Here's a video of my quite scrubby Fox:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkv_AjitLPM

I am open to any advice/knowledge you guys might have for me (match-up specific or just overall). I have noticed some of my bad habits, so that's a start :p

Thanks :D

PS: Yeah I know, my tech skill isnt on point at all and I need to practice it more xd
 
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Jpad

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
12
Location
Wauconda, IL
Hello everyone, I just created my Smashboards account after playing Melee for about 6 months! I am of course looking for any advice I can find :) Here's a video of my quite scrubby Fox:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkv_AjitLPM

I am open to any advice/knowledge you guys might have for me (match-up specific or just overall). I have noticed some of my bad habits, so that's a start :p

Thanks :D

PS: Yeah I know, my tech skill isnt on point at all and I need to practice it more xd
What i notice from your play is a lot of blind approaches with an not L-cancelled dair, clunky movement, and very little defensive play.

Obviously as a fox player focus on tech, L-cancelling those dairs is what will get you the shine into upsmash/grab/jab reset. Just playing more will improve your movement, but be careful with full hopping and using your double jump immediately after you're off stage, it lost you a stock @1:40. Make sure you're landing those techs or at least focus on getting most of them, the marth player got a free punish every time just by following your missed-tech option. Try to mix up your recovery instead of an instead double jump to the side into up/side-b. Especially against marth he has a very easy time taking advantage of close to stage recoveries.

I recommend getting 20xx hack pack (if you dont have it already) and use the save state tool to up-throw up air marth with different DI. You missed a few up-throw up-airs when the marth had no DI, free damage.

As for that matchup (and in general) try to play a more bait-like playstyle and try to focus on dash dancing and wavedashing back/in place to make your movement less predictable.

Hopefully that helped out! :dkmelee:
 

Sergeant Guy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
2
Thanks a lot man! I'll definetely focus on improving my tech skill, as that's the key to be a good Fox :foxmelee:

As for my recovery, I really need to mix it up lol. I know quite a few things that could help me out but that I don't think about in the heat of the moment:

-Shine stall
-Side b shorten depending on the opponent's stage position
-Wall jumping (like once or twice a set because its not very safe)
-Not using my double jump immediately, as you pointed out.

Thanks again :dkmelee:
 

Mywhy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
52
Location
Iowa City, Iowa
https://youtu.be/DTvVMwC9zZI?t=1333

Anyone want to give me a few tips? I don't have questions on specific game, I guess I'm just wondering about any habits/bad decisions you guys may notice. For tech flubs my excuse is netplay, because offline I'm a million times more smooth, ledgedashes/lcancels/waveshines especially. I miss things for being just a few frames later than I normally would be.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
https://youtu.be/DTvVMwC9zZI?t=1333

Anyone want to give me a few tips? I don't have questions on specific game, I guess I'm just wondering about any habits/bad decisions you guys may notice. For tech flubs my excuse is netplay, because offline I'm a million times more smooth, ledgedashes/lcancels/waveshines especially. I miss things for being just a few frames later than I normally would be.
I watched two of your games.

The things I think that you should work on would be just playing more patient. By that I mean using more dash dances, keeping someone in the corner, being patient to get out of the corner, and not over extending.

You need more and tighter dash dances because your approaches - especially the dair approach is really telegraphed right now. A tighter dash dance will also make your movement more threatening so that the opponent gets nervous and commits to a punishable action.

Your corner play in general seems to be a pretty big weak point. When he is in the corner, you often let him back to center of the stage or you over extend and end up cornering yourself. So just focus more at holding some ground and threatening him with safe hitboxes and movement when he is in the corner. When you are in the corner you often try to force your way through him. Try being a bit more patient and use micro spacing tools to look for a hole in his corner play.

Other small things (put maybe due to netplay lag or something). I would like to see you use running shine more often because even if it does not hit, you are making him respect that additional space because you are showing you are looking for a running shine window. Just one more thing the opponent has to worry about.
Wave shine to grab I think is often the better follow up than u smash at anything that is not less than 10% or kill percent
 

Takuya Arima

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
3
I play against a Peach that loves to FC Fair, land, and then jab right away. What's the best punish for this? I was thinking Nair, but I haven't tried it yet. If so, when is the best time to do it? If you guys have any other solutions I'd love to hear them.
 

Xxaz_v

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
58
Peach is slow. Fox is fast. FC is really hard to punish since it has 4 frames of landing lag, so I recommend that you run away from and laser. You don't really have to go that far too, since Peach is really slow. Nair might be risky, due to hair peaches Fair works. If you're felling risky, you can try to punish the 4 frames of landing lag with a shine.
 

Schill

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 18, 2015
Messages
21
Hey guys, new to the forums. This is my first post.

I had a few questions about ledge invulnerability. I used to main falcon and as I started familiarizing myself with 20GX tech, I realized that my fingers weren't as slow as I originally thought and started playng some fox. I know with falcon you can either fastfall from ledge and regrab while still remaining invulnerable or you can hax dash. I also know that with falcon you can regrab ledge after 30 frames and the cliffgrab animation lasts 7 frames.

Just want to know the options fox has for maintaining ledge invulnerability and the frame data behind them. I've been doing one where I fastfall and immediately jump with the control stick and then firefox and I'm decently consistent with it but I'm not sure if it's the best option
 
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